Herbie style overflow

[Chad]

So, my tank is plumbed and ready, I started it up and did a emergency shutoff to see if the sump handled the flow back etc. When I restarted the system, I found out that my Herbie overflow does not start back up. Instead the emergency line has to take over.

How do I get the regulated line to take over as normal during a restart of power? Or do I have to re-set it every time?

thanks!

[mark]

a Herbie is nothing more than two standpipes, one higher than the other and the lower one having a valve. Can't see why it won't start as there's no siphons etc.

[Chad]

I have a 90 degree elbow pointing down on the one which is valved.. maybe it is just trapping the air? but then, when I removed the elbow.. some air came out but it wasn't until I opened the gate valve that it started to flow again properly.

I am just not sure if it is normal for the valved line to stay un-operational until you reset it.

[mark]

not running a Herbie full time (just on my 33g QT) but never had a problem with the primary drain restarting, but then it was just a straight vertical pipe coming up from the bottom of the tank.

Could see having a down turned elbow causing a air lock.

[Black Phantom]

Sounds like trapped air to me. How close to the top of your overflow is the valve. It might be that there isn't enough water building up in the pipe after startup to push the air out.

[Whatigot]

would airline fed into the pipe solve this issue?

[Nevin]

Can you just remove the downturned elbow? If it's there to make your normal drain lower than the emergency drain then it won't work. How about an elbow turned upward on your emergency drain to make it higher instead?

Regards,
Nevin

[sphelps]

Pictures are amazing things, got any??

[JDigital]

Herbie should just be 2 straight stand pipe.. the emergency being taller than the main drain.. the main drain should be full submerged under water.

(for some reason it didn't upload vertically.. but u get the idea...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/JDigital/IMG_0044.jpg

[Chad]

Ok, i will get photos tomorrow.. I did not make it vertical through the bottom.. I did it through the side. I didn't read anything that had said I could only do it completely vertically. There are atleast 2 elbows in it.

[fkshiu]

Hmm, that's interesting. I've got a 90 and a 45 degree elbow on my Herbie main drain and it has never had any difficulty re-starting. A Herbie is completely gravity-based so it's hard to imagine a situation where one would not re-start as long as water was flowing downwards.

What sized pipe are you using? And how much flow do you have going through the overflow? Perhaps with narrow pipes and low flow the valve could be closed enough such that some slime or gunk creates a blockage???

[mark]

with the down turned elbow, you doing this style (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1310585)?

[Chad]

I am not doing Beananimal's style. The pipe I am using is 3/4" and the flow is less than 200 gph. So I am not sure why it is not restarting.. unless the air is being trapped too fast? I don't know how to solve this.. and at this point I do not want to redo everything. There is definitely no slime or gunk in it because this is all brand new piping.

Pics coming up.

[Chad]

3111

3112

3113

[sphelps]

drill a small hole (1/8") in the top of the elbow inside the oveflow on the main drain. The main problem is that the main drain isn't low enough and enough head pressure isn't building up to push the air out of the elbow.

[Chad]

Oh.. I see... I will give it a try and let you know what happens..

I was thinking of making a trip switch so I would have to physically reset/turn on the return pump in the event of a power outage. However, I would rather not have to resort to something like that.

[JDigital]

Btw... that definitely does not look like a herbie style.. :wink:

It looks alot more like beananimals "style"... at least from what I can see in the pics..

[fkshiu]

You don't really have a "classic" Herbie overflow. I agree it's more like Bean's which is really just a modified Durso with an emergency drain.

A Herbie has drains on the bottom of the overflow box so the water can only flow one way: down. There is no air introduced into the system.

sphelps's solution should work, but you'll basically have a Durso which is a controlled way of introducing air into a drainage system.

Here's my Herbie:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/fkshiu/IMG_5560.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/fkshiu/IMG_5561.jpg

[Chad]

Hmm, I obviously misunderstood the concept. I thought the whole idea was to just add a gate valve and dial it back to match the flow of the return pump?

Putting the drain into the bottom of the tank was not something I wanted to do and I am pretty sure I saw examples of people doing it the way I plumbed it as well.

I will drill the hole in the morning and see what happens. I did test it already with it matched and it is dead silent, just when it restarts after a shut down it doesn't start the main drain up.

Oh well... live and learn

[mark]

if the hole doesn't work, you might have the height for a classic Herbie (still can come from the back wall)

On you primary, rotate the elbow so it points up. Looks like you backup has a short nipple, may need to extend.

[Chad]

the problem is this is only a 34 gal cube tank.. I was trying to do this with as little realestate lost as possible.. I will have to work with what I got because I am not interested in redoing it all again.. I sucks that I did not get the whole concept in the begining or else I might have just done beananimals all the way instead.

Worse comes to worse, I just have to deal with the emergency line handling all the flow in the event of a restart after a power outtage.

I should have it filled with RO/DI by today. So I will start it up and see what happens with the hole.

sigh... I thought I was doing it all right the first time!!!! lol.. oh well..

[Chad]

if the hole doesn't work, you might have the height for a classic Herbie (still can come from the back wall)

On you primary, rotate the elbow so it points up. Looks like you backup has a short nipple, may need to extend.


How can I still do it through the back wall?

[Nevin]

As Mark says, you can do the Herbie through the back wall--just turn the elbow upward or remove it. Then adjust your gate valve so the main drain is fully immersed and the emergency drain isn't. I have a similar setup with an internal overflow smaller than yours--can be a bit tricky to maintain the water level, but it works well.

Regards,
Nevin

[sphelps]

It should work fine with the hole. Removing the elbow completely will also work but since the primary is so close to the top air may be drawn into the line from the surface which could be noisy, the elbow should eliminate this.

Run it with the elbow and hole and let us know how it works.

[Chad]

Ok, the hole does not work.. I am a bit peeved that I did not do this right!! lol.. Anything else I can do to fix this mess? Or will I just have to suffer with it or re-plumb it?

No matter what I will have to go through the back. The best solution I can think of is to remove the current drain and replace all the 90's with 45's. Or just replace with flex Pipe.

Ideas?

What if I tap a hole in the very first 90 out the back of the tank, run a line to the return pipe inlet, so it sucks out the air? Yes it will kill some of the return flow but very little I would think? Yes/No?

Thanks!!

[mark]

On you main drain have you tried removing the 90° or having the opening facing the top?

If you have and you finding it sucking air, option is to redrill on the side, just lower down right towards the bottom (immediately below existing main), then place the upturned 90°. The original main drain then could be either plumbed back as another emergency or blanked off.

Can also give up the idea of the Herbie, and run a external Durso (http://www.dursostandpipes.com/PopularModifications/ExternalOverflow/tabid/64/Default.aspx). On the main, leave the 90° pointing down, on the outside of the tank have a tee. Cap the top, then drill out for the air (starting will a small bit, or tap for a air valve), the downward leg to the sump.

[Chad]

I removed the 90 from the drain already.. so it is just the bulk head.. I love how silent it is right now, just wish I could get it to restart on its own.

The whole problem is that it will not restart after a power shutoff and almost all the flow goes through the emergency drain. I am sure if left for hours the air would work its way out of the main, but that is just silly.. :D

[mark]

you realize though depending on how closed the valve is on the primary drain is, the water will back up over the top of the primary.

On my 33g will about 200gph, with everything balanced (surface height steady) the water surface was over 2" above the top of the drain.

Might need also to increase the height of the emergency.

[Captainhemo]

Hmmm, if its actually airlocking, you should be able to drill a small " bleed" hole right above the water line where the drain enters the sump

[Chad]

would that still work if you have the gate valve? should the bleed hole be before or after the gate valve?

[Captainhemo]

Well, this wouldn't be a "normal " placemnet for an air bleed, I'm kinda hoping it might work though....
I'd try putting a small hole right above the water line of the sump (between the water line and the bottom of the gate valve) .