Maybe quitting Zeovit

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Zeovit has been disappointing to me thus far. I get THE worst film algae on the glass and for the first time in my tank history, I'm constantly battling hair algae and cyano in certain areas of my tank, and bubble algae/valonia continues to grow. This AFTER starting Zeo.

It requires a fair amount of diligence, I've found, and I'm growing weary of the effort that returns no positive results.

I've been researching other carbon-based nutrient-low systems and am intrigued by this (http://glassbox-design.com/2008/achieved-through-observation-and-experimentation/). I understand the risks, but it looks much less involved, yet effective.

What do you all think?

[Brent F]

I quit using it about 6 weeks ago and my algae problems cleared up. I was finding it way too complex

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Interesting. So frustrating :bad-word:

[Skimmerking]

hey Drew i find that all the reading that i have been doing about ZEO is crazy alot of stuff to do for the pleasure of sitting there and watching it grow.. It's just alot of money to perfect you hobby.. may be im crazy or not dont get me wrong all all zeo users are getting the gains that they should. the start up is crazy unless you can DIY with some of the stuff.lke the reactor, all the supplements that you have to buy. but then you look at some people that say that their algae problem clears up, so does it work or does it not......

[i have crabs]

i would try the polyplabs reef-resh system before dosing sugar or vodka in a tank i cared about.

[BMW Rider]

I used the Polyplabs for about 18 months and quit it for the same reasons. It worked at first then the tank became a film algae cesspool. Its much better now without.

[littlesilvermax]

I used the Polyplabs for about 18 months and quit it for the same reasons. It worked at first then the tank became a film algae cesspool. Its much better now without.

ditto, almost the exact same experience.

Tank got worse when I quit it, but after a few months is better.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Very interesting indeed. Well, I'm going to do it. I'm tired of putting in all this effort for a tank that looks like a petri dish.

I've taken before pics and will hopefully track any progress (hopefully progress).

[Oceanic]

It is very easy with Zeo to over dose any of the basic four suppliments, the algae could be the result of the start2, zeofood7, or AAHC. Everyones tank is differant and you can't just go by what the label on the bottle says for dosing instructions. You may also have a latent PO4 build up in the tank sand, rock etc, that is being pulled out by the zeo system. Sometimes results take some time to be achieved, however, given some time and tweaking of the suppliments the tank will become nutrient poor using the zeovit method.

I found I was getting some hair algae until I started cycling th zeo reactor 3 hours on 3 hours off. Give it some time and tweek your dosing amounts and it will get better.

:biggrin:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

That's the thing, I'm dosing VERY low amounts, well below the recommended amounts. And I've always cycled my reactor on/off in 3 hour intervals!

[Brent F]

It is very easy with Zeo to over dose any of the basic four suppliments, the algae could be the result of the start2, zeofood7, or AAHC. Everyones tank is differant and you can't just go by what the label on the bottle says for dosing instructions. You may also have a latent PO4 build up in the tank sand, rock etc, that is being pulled out by the zeo system. Sometimes results take some time to be achieved, however, given some time and tweaking of the suppliments the tank will become nutrient poor using the zeovit method.

I found I was getting some hair algae until I started cycling th zeo reactor 3 hours on 3 hours off. Give it some time and tweek your dosing amounts and it will get better.

:biggrin:

This touches on why I stopped dosing. It is too much work and a bit of a black art to do it right.

The simplicity of fish as a nutrient supply, skimming, and dosing only consumed elements (Calcuim and Alkalinity) seems to be providing better results for me.

[Delphinus]

I ran reef tanks for 10 years before I ever started Zeovit, and there were times those tanks didn't look too bad. :lol: I'm still only about a half believer in the zeo.

I'm really not a fan of daily manual dosings. It's not a big deal for me but I hate asking people to do it when I have to go away for whatever - if it's too complicated a process, they'll never tanksit again. And never mind the "oh and pump this handle 15 times in the morning, and again 15 times in the evening, if you would, please and thank you."

I had the cyano thing too. I did get a marginal improvement after I dosed red slime remover. No more cyano and no signs of it reappearing. However, the film algae on the glass is out of control. Although it's weird, it must be the sand because the 40g carpet tank (same sump == same water) does not have a film buildup on it at all - I clean it about once every 6 weeks or so. But the 75g main display - needs the glass cleaned on a daily basis. If I let it go beyond 2 days, the magfloat doesn't clean it anymore - I have to use a razor blade at that point.

I think the difference though is that the 40g has a large stomatella population but the 75g has a small population. I'm not sure who's picking them off but I suspect someone probably has a taste for them. At any rate, point being, I'm not so sure my 40g clean glass is really attributable to the zeo.

So basically I just use zeo for the water clarity and as a substitute for GFO. ... Can't really say I ever saw the crayon-box colours come out of my corals that you see on all the zeovit pictures.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

This is the back side, 2 days after being scraped clean:
http://x9c.xanga.com/e35c6767c0d33201721685/b156437925.jpg

This is the front side, after one day:
http://xdb.xanga.com/dccc476b64131201721704/b156437940.jpg

[Patrick1]

I went through the same thing with my tank when I started Zeo I was not a happy guy. I stopped dosing for a few weeks I scrubbed out the hair alge and cut my zeo start dose in half. I changed from running carbon to running phosban media and with in days I had the tank I wanted. Been running so smoothly every since and even if I miss a few days of dosing all is well.

[Oceanic]

This is the back side, 2 days after being scraped clean:
http://x9c.xanga.com/e35c6767c0d33201721685/b156437925.jpg

This is the front side, after one day:
http://xdb.xanga.com/dccc476b64131201721704/b156437940.jpg

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD BATMAN! I have never had anything like that before with my tank and my fish load is pretty heavy, I would be looking at your nutrient load very closely, ie. your RO/DI water, food, dosing amounts. Below is a list I would look into if this was happening to my tank.

1. - Check your make up and top off RO/DI water, it HAS to be ZERO.

2. - Test your PO4 level, if higher than .05 you will have to run GFO or equvilant until lower than .05 otherwise the Zeo method won't work.

3. - Your DKH must be between 6.5 and 8 nothing higher (not sure of the science behind this but it is important! If using Seachem Reef Salt DKH should be at about 9.3.

4. - Check how old your lights are, replace if older than recommended.

5. - Up your water change schedule if you can, I do about 5% or so a week.

6. - reduce your photo period if on for longer than 8 hours (halides)

7. - lower your temp if above 82, the slime algae on the glass likes warm water. My tank runs at about 79-80

8. - Up your Bak dosage slightly, cut your start2 dosage in half and only dose twice per week. Also lower your Zeofood7 and only dose twice per week. Stop dosing AAHC if you are using it.

9. - Change Carbon if more than 30 days old. run slightly more if possible.


Could you please tell me your dosing schedule?

How much Zeolite stones your are running
How much Carbon and wheather you are you using a reactor for the Carbon or running it in a filter sock passivly
You complete dosing schedule and what ZEO elements you are using
The salt you are using
The flow rate through your ZEO reactor
your Zeolite rock exchange schedule

I might be able to help with that crazy algae issue!

[Der_Iron_Chef]

1. - Check your make up and top off RO/DI water, it HAS to be ZERO.
Strange. I just tested my RO/DI water and it had a TDS of 40. Two weeks ago, it was 2. I'll flush the RO membrane for 30 minutes and test it again.

2. - Test your PO4 level, if higher than .05 you will have to run GFO or equvilant until lower than .05 otherwise the Zeo method won't work.
I don't actually have a PO4 test kit. I know, bad reefer. Maybe it's time.

3. - Your DKH must be between 6.5 and 8 nothing higher (not sure of the science behind this but it is important! If using Seachem Reef Salt DKH should be at about 9.3.
I just tested my water: dKH=6.4, Ca=440, Mg=1220.

4. - Check how old your lights are, replace if older than recommended.
I just replaced 5 of my T5 bulbs a few weeks ago. The other three are less than 2 months old.

5. - Up your water change schedule if you can, I do about 5% or so a week.
I do 10% every week-week and a half.

6. - reduce your photo period if on for longer than 8 hours (halides)
I only run HO T5's (8x39w). Four come on at 10:30am, the other four at 11:00am....then off again at 10:30pm and 11:00pm.

7. - lower your temp if above 82, the slime algae on the glass likes warm water. My tank runs at about 79-80.
Unorthodox, I know, but I don't use a heater in my tank, lol. They make me very nervous, and my apartment is never cold (I have nice floor heating).

8. - Up your Bak dosage slightly, cut your start2 dosage in half and only dose twice per week. Also lower your Zeofood7 and only dose twice per week. Stop dosing AAHC if you are using it.
I'll answer this below...

9. - Change Carbon if more than 30 days old. run slightly more if possible.
I'm using Aqua Connect Silicarbon, changed it after 5 weeks.


Could you please tell me your dosing schedule?

How much Zeolite stones your are running .75L
How much Carbon and wheather you are you using a reactor for the Carbon or running it in a filter sock passivly 3/4 C Aqua Connect Silicarb, run passively in a filter sock.
You complete dosing schedule and what ZEO elements you are using ZEOback = 2 drop twice a week, ZEOfood = 2 drops twice a week, ZEOstart = 0.4 ml daily.
The salt you are using Kent
The flow rate through your ZEO reactor Somewhere between 50-75gph, alternating three hours on, three hours off.
your Zeolite rock exchange schedule I've only exchanged it once, after 4 weeks; kept 15%-ish to seed new Zeolites.

[Oceanic]

Strange. I just tested my RO/DI water and it had a TDS of 40. Two weeks ago, it was 2. I'll flush the RO membrane for 30 minutes and test it again. This is the most important step you can take to control your problems, flushing the filter is fine but replace the DI canister if you cannot get it to zero, infact you should replace all filters at least once a year.

2. - Test your PO4 level, if higher than .05 you will have to run GFO or equvilant until lower than .05 otherwise the Zeo method won't work.
I don't actually have a PO4 test kit. I know, bad reefer. Maybe it's time.
It is REALLY time to know what this level is at, it must be below .05 but preferably lower. If above run some GFO in a Phosban reactor until it drops.

3. - Your DKH must be between 6.5 and 8 nothing higher (not sure of the science behind this but it is important! If using Seachem Reef Salt DKH should be at about 9.3.
I just tested my water: dKH=6.4, Ca=440, Mg=1220.
This is good but raise your MAG to 1325 or better.

4. - Check how old your lights are, replace if older than recommended.
I just replaced 5 of my T5 bulbs a few weeks ago. The other three are less than 2 months old.
Excellent

5. - Up your water change schedule if you can, I do about 5% or so a week.
I do 10% every week-week and a half.
Excellent! But realize that your new saltwater is using that substandard RO/DI water. Adding fuel to the fire no doubt.

6. - reduce your photo period if on for longer than 8 hours (halides)
I only run HO T5's (8x39w). Four come on at 10:30am, the other four at 11:00am....then off again at 10:30pm and 11:00pm.
Tune your photoperiod down to 8 hrs, have the lights come on at 12:30 and 1:00pm instead. This will make a differance.

7. - lower your temp if above 82, the slime algae on the glass likes warm water. My tank runs at about 79-80.
Unorthodox, I know, but I don't use a heater in my tank, lol. They make me very nervous, and my apartment is never cold (I have nice floor heating).
Hmm, okay. The last this you want is swings in temp, buy yourself a good heater if it drops more than a few degrees by morning. Ebo Jagor/Marineland Stealth...


9. - Change Carbon if more than 30 days old. run slightly more if possible.
I'm using Aqua Connect Silicarbon, changed it after 5 weeks.
Change once every 30 days, use regular high grade Carbon, by using the silicarbon you may be competing with the bacteria for something they may need to metabolize the phosphate or other nutrients in your tank that no doubt attribute to the algae film, hair algae, etc..


Could you please tell me your dosing schedule?

How much Zeolite stones your are running .75L
This is good, change every 6 weekss or so, follow the instructions once changed.

How much Carbon and wheather you are you using a reactor for the Carbon or running it in a filter sock passivly 3/4 C Aqua Connect Silicarb, run passively in a filter sock.
Explained above re; carbon

You complete dosing schedule and what ZEO elements you are using
ZEOback = 2 drop twice a week, ZEOfood = 2 drops twice a week, ZEOstart = 0.4 ml daily.
Try dosing three drops bak 2x per week / zeofood 1 drop 3x per week / zeostart .2ml 2x per week. Stop the Zeostart until the film on glass improves then start again as recommended.

The salt you are using Kent
Okay

The flow rate through your ZEO reactor Somewhere between 50-75gph, alternating three hours on, three hours off.
Up the flow rate to 75-100 GPH keeping the on/off schedule

your Zeolite rock exchange schedule I've only exchanged it once, after 4 weeks; kept 15%-ish to seed new Zeolites.
As above

I really think these things will work for you, I would recommend this before attempting the VsV method.

:mrgreen:
__________________
~Drew

55G Mixed Reef * 15G Sump * Deltec MCE 600 Skimmer * Tek 8x39W HO T5 * Zeovit * Vortech MP40W

Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ~S. Ertz

[Aquattro]

Well, this thread answers my question last month about whether I should consider zeo...

I'll just stick with tried & true.

[michika]

I say go for the VSV method, and don't forget about yourself and that first V! I am really glad I held off and avoided all the nutrient poor systems. My gut just told me that there had to be some sort of downside to it.

The photos are super helpful, and I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.

[Oceanic]

Well, this thread answers my question last month about whether I should consider zeo...

I'll just stick with tried & true.


Not so fast! This is likely a result of a nutrient problem associated with the RO/DI water among other contibutors.

Zeovit works, but you must commit to doing it exactly as instructed. I have been using the Fauna Marin and now Zeovit with great results.

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z142/fokusbmw/026.jpg

[Tom R]

The flow rate through your ZEO reactor Somewhere between 50-75gph, alternating three hours on, three hours off.
Up the flow rate to 75-100 GPH keeping the on/off schedule

Remember that the ZEOlite rocks must be covered by water when the flow is off for three hours.

Tom R

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Yeah....the rocks in my reactor were always submerged.

[Oceanic]

The flow rate through your ZEO reactor Somewhere between 50-75gph, alternating three hours on, three hours off.
Up the flow rate to 75-100 GPH keeping the on/off schedule

Remember that the ZEOlite rocks must be covered by water when the flow is off for three hours.

Tom R

Good point, forgot to mention that........:lol:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Ok, I changed my DI resin out and I'm getting a consistent TDS reading of between 0 and 1.

[albert_dao]

Zeovit isn't a bandaid to smother out other problems. Any probiotic methodology will have strict guidelines that need to be monitored and adhered to.

From the sounds of it, your reactor isn't breaking in properly and you're still stuck in Phase 1.

Drew, try this:

Reduce the flow rate to 50 gph or so. Cut the use of any animo acids and/or auxillary supplements (iodine, iron, etc), stick to the basic four. From those, and as mentioned above, I'd do the following:

ZeoBak and Zeofood 2-3 drops daily for the first week after your exchange, switch to twice a week thereinafter. Make sure you're dosing near the feed pump of the reactor and only when it's on.

Zeofood should be added at .25 mL twice daily, again, near the pump and while it's on.

Since this is within your first rock exchange, hang on. Sometimes, establishing the zeolith filter is a PITA, but once you hit phase 2/3, it's smooth sailing.

HTH

[Oceanic]

Ok, I changed my DI resin out and I'm getting a consistent TDS reading of between 0 and 1.


Excellent! this is a great start, try the other suggestions and see what happens.

[Aquattro]

Zeovit works, but you must commit to doing it exactly as instructed.

That in itself is reason enough. I want to enjoy my tank, not spend more tim ein the sump room. RO water in, water changes bi-weekly out, smart feeding, efficient skimming, and I think that's all I need

[Skimmin]

I had great success with zeovit. If you are not you may want to try running ozone with the Zeovit but only OCCASIONALLY. I found that once I initially brought up the orp in my water from approx 180 to 320 it stayed in that range almost on its own (unless I fed heavy) I think once you remove the excess nutrients and organics from the water(with the ozone and skimmer) you have a much better chance keeping away pesky algae blooms. I had crystal clear water and the colour I had with my corals was awesome.I know that zeovit doesn't suggest running ozone with their product but I don't feel I had any problems due to it. I'm gonna use Zeovit again on my next tank. The only real kicker with Zeovit in my experience is the price.

[Skimmerking]

Wow Man that is alot of maintaining to get your tank looking like a picture. Well I use heavy skimming, CArbon, and Phosban, along with Kalk and i dont get that green algae build up i may get the odd Bubble algae on a patch here and there andthat is it. Or some rel turf that covers the rocks ,but then the phos ban takes care of that. the ocean doesn't use Zeo and look at what it looks like, yes i know that the ocean has all the proper supplements in to house what ever and the proper lighting and the corals to react to what ever mother nature throws out.

But i do know taking your time in doing water changes and getting good quality rocks and feeding the right amount and not over stocking your tank will give you the satisfaction of a nice looking tank. Yes all tank are different and do cycle different but that is what makes this hobby great understanding what has to be done and doing it to your time allowance.

REEF Roids
Zeo
and other products may have the right solution, and cost money. Well its not for me old fashion is the way to go in my books..

you tank will always have something wrong with its not like the ocean.. that is just my Opinion

[albert_dao]

Wow Man that is alot of maintaining to get your tank looking like a picture. Well I use heavy skimming, CArbon, and Phosban, along with Kalk and i dont get that green algae build up i may get the odd Bubble algae on a patch here and there andthat is it. Or some rel turf that covers the rocks ,but then the phos ban takes care of that. the ocean doesn't use Zeo and look at what it looks like, yes i know that the ocean has all the proper supplements in to house what ever and the proper lighting and the corals to react to what ever mother nature throws out.

You're missing the point here. There's a huge difference between your average tank and an ultra low nutrient tank (ULN).

Anyone can run GAC, GFO and O3 and get a decent - good looking tank. Probiotic tanks, however, are on a whole different level. Take a look at the Interzoo pictures; the colors are AMAZING!. I friend of mine just came back from there and his comments went along the line of "Yeah, you know that new program? The new photoshop that you install on your fish tank instead of your computer? Yeah, they used it on those corals there.

Speaking of colors and ULN systems, you know what never fails to amaze me, people always talk about how pastel European corals look and never pause to consider the fact that pastel colors are some of the hardest to maintain. It's easy to have a super metallic Green Slimer or a deep, deep Red Robin Millepora, but someone out there pick up a Baby Blue Gemmifera and keep it looking like over 20 generations in the same (non-ULN tank) and I'll show you an unusually talented aquarist!

As far as the ocean not using Zeo? No, not in the way imagine it doesn't, but there are bacterial processes happening there that you will not be able to replicate using GAC, GFO and O3. Trust me, Zeovit is about as close to the Ocean as a reef tank gets, my friend. This keeping in mind that the ocean ISN'T a closed system like our tanks either.

But i do know taking your time in doing water changes and getting good quality rocks and feeding the right amount and not over stocking your tank will give you the satisfaction of a nice looking tank. Yes all tank are different and do cycle different but that is what makes this hobby great understanding what has to be done and doing it to your time allowance.

That's how you run a normal tank. It's not how you get a ULN tank.

REEF Roids
Zeo
and other products may have the right solution, and cost money. Well its not for me old fashion is the way to go in my books..

you tank will always have something wrong with its not like the ocean.. that is just my Opinion

I don't agree with SUV's being allowed on the road, but I don't like SMART cars either. I'm also not a huge fan of the silent Jihad that's slowly permeating our society. I also am of the mind that tax dollars going to fund safety injection centers is an absolute crock of Donkey Dung =P That's my Opinion, haha.

Personally, I'm glad our hobby allows room for everyone to achieve success in different ways, so cheers to that!

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I was hoping you'd chime in here, Albert! Thanks everyone for the comments. I will let you know how things progress. I think getting the TDS issue under control will definitely help (duh...I know better).

[Patrick1]

Yeah Albert helped me with the same problem. It took a couple of weeks to get it sorted out. I have tried a few other methods on my other tanks but nothing worked for me like zeo. Honestly as some one who has gone through a bad start to zeo I can honestly say. It was never the system it was the user.

[Skimmerking]

You're missing the point here. There's a huge difference between your average tank and an ultra low nutrient tank (ULN).

Anyone can run GAC, GFO and O3 and get a decent - good looking tank. Probiotic tanks, however, are on a whole different level. Take a look at the Interzoo pictures; the colors are AMAZING!. I friend of mine just came back from there and his comments went along the line of "Yeah, you know that new program? The new photoshop that you install on your fish tank instead of your computer? Yeah, they used it on those corals there.

Speaking of colors and ULN systems, you know what never fails to amaze me, people always talk about how pastel European corals look and never pause to consider the fact that pastel colors are some of the hardest to maintain. It's easy to have a super metallic Green Slimer or a deep, deep Red Robin Millepora, but someone out there pick up a Baby Blue Gemmifera and keep it looking like over 20 generations in the same (non-ULN tank) and I'll show you an unusually talented aquarist!

As far as the ocean not using Zeo? No, not in the way imagine it doesn't, but there are bacterial processes happening there that you will not be able to replicate using GAC, GFO and O3. Trust me, Zeovit is about as close to the Ocean as a reef tank gets, my friend. This keeping in mind that the ocean ISN'T a closed system like our tanks either.



That's how you run a normal tank. It's not how you get a ULN tank.



I don't agree with SUV's being allowed on the road, but I don't like SMART cars either. I'm also not a huge fan of the silent Jihad that's slowly permeating our society. I also am of the mind that tax dollars going to fund safety injection centers is an absolute crock of Donkey Dung =P That's my Opinion, haha.

Personally, I'm glad our hobby allows room for everyone to achieve success in different ways, so cheers to that!


holy heck
Albert easy on picking on me:mrgreen: good point thou. see its even on threads where you always will get a different answer even on simple things that goes on in a reef tank. may be im old fashion, im not bashing it its just seems that its alot of work and money to get something looking amazing. Im just glad that i can actually take care of a reef tank and wouldnt trade any of my experience that i have learned for anything.

but on another note thanks for making me look dumb :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: J K

[albert_dao]

holy heck
Albert easy on picking on me:mrgreen: good point thou. see its even on threads where you always will get a different answer even on simple things that goes on in a reef tank. may be im old fashion, im not bashing it its just seems that its alot of work and money to get something looking amazing. Im just glad that i can actually take care of a reef tank and wouldnt trade any of my experience that i have learned for anything.

but on another note thanks for making me look dumb :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: J K

LOL! Not trying to pick on you! You're making me feel like the bad guy here, haha.

[Oceanic]

I'm also not a huge fan of the silent Jihad that's slowly permeating our society.

:lol:
:bad-word:

[Oceanic]

I was hoping you'd chime in here, Albert! Thanks everyone for the comments. I will let you know how things progress. I think getting the TDS issue under control will definitely help (duh...I know better).


I'm telling you man! Go through the list I made you and you WILL see results....... There is some good advice here!:changes:

[Skimmerking]

LOL! Not trying to pick on you! You're making me feel like the bad guy here, haha.

you bully
its good to have great knowledgable persons like you in this site man..

[albert_dao]

Drew needs to edit the title of this thread to "Okay, now I'm PRO".

LOL

[midgetwaiter]

the ocean doesn't use Zeo and look at what it looks like, yes i know that the ocean has all the proper supplements in to house what ever and the proper lighting and the corals to react to what ever mother nature throws out.



As far as the ocean not using Zeo? No, not in the way imagine it doesn't, but there are bacterial processes happening there that you will not be able to replicate using GAC, GFO and O3. Trust me, Zeovit is about as close to the Ocean as a reef tank gets, my friend. This keeping in mind that the ocean ISN'T a closed system like our tanks either.


The ocean doesn't look like zeo tanks. For every pastel blue "wonder zippy" acro you see on a reef there are hundreds of dull brown boring ones. The super pastel colours are an aberration, a defensive reaction to photo saturation in a low nutrient environment. Promoting Zeovit as a way to get a "natural" looking reef tank is seriously silly.

However if ULN and bright colours is what you want to achieve these systems are effective. My personal experience is limited as I've never been an SPS lover and for a toadstool loving peon it doesn't seem worth the expense. From the messing about I have done though it is clear to me that this is a complicated balance to achieve, I'm not surprised that so many people have the results Drew has talked about. It's something you have to play with and find out what implementation of "the recipe" is going to work in a given situation, this will take a serious effort. Too many people are disappointed with marginal initial results and give up.

Stick with it Drew and I'll bet you get it to work.

[digital-audiophile]

I feel your pain Drew. I am in the same boat... my poor tank looks like a cesspool right now. Fuilm algae out of control, cyano like you wouldn't imagine.. and on top of it I am starting to lose coral. I keep adjusting my zeo but it is a struggle to find the right balance.

[Oceanic]

The super pastel colours are an aberration, a defensive reaction to photo saturation in a low nutrient environment. Promoting Zeovit as a way to get a "natural" looking reef tank is seriously silly.


I completely disagree with this statement, the ocean in its most pristine places is naturaly an Ultra Low Nutrient and naturaly bright enviroment using the power of the sun. Some of the reefs are comprised of miles and miles of shallow ultra clear water with prodominant coral colors that would put most tanks to shame. It is incorrect to think brown is the only "natural" color or the most common color of the natural reef. By using Zeovit or other similar pricipals we are only trying to replicate the fact that our corals are not stuck in an enclosed glass box.

Also remember that the ocean does not have powerfull actinic lights poised over top of it; however, it does have the ultra power of the sun sitting somewhere around the 5500K range. Stick a 5500K rated 1000 watt light over your tank then see what the colors look like! One would be pretty surprised how dull they would look.


http://batchisthenewshit.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/coral_reef.jpg

http://files.myopera.com/kaylinq/blog/elkhorn.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/88085097_37a0410736.jpg?v=0

[Aquattro]

Well. I agree there are some nice colors in the wild, but honestly, for every blue coral, I've seen 3 brown ones. Just saying brown is a natural color variation for corals.

[Whatigot]

come on guys, it's not ALL about colours.
doesn't anyone just like their reefs for the natural mini microcosms that they are?

[Aquattro]

come on guys, it's not ALL about colours.
doesn't anyone just like their reefs for the natural mini microcosms that they are?

No, pretty much it's all about colors. Sometimes I brag about the little ecosystem, but honestly, I want a blue and purple ecosystem, not a brown one.

[Skimmerking]

ya that is true the colors are what make the reef stand out IMO. It just seems very hard sometimes to get it looking amazing , may be that is why every tank is totally different .. some need more TLC and other s well its just luck of the draw.

[albert_dao]

The ocean doesn't look like zeo tanks. For every pastel blue "wonder zippy" acro you see on a reef there are hundreds of dull brown boring ones. The super pastel colours are an aberration, a defensive reaction to photo saturation in a low nutrient environment. Promoting Zeovit as a way to get a "natural" looking reef tank is seriously silly.


A "natural looking reef" was not part of my intent in that statement. The ULN was.

[midgetwaiter]

I completely disagree with this statement, the ocean in its most pristine places is naturaly an Ultra Low Nutrient and naturaly bright enviroment using the power of the sun. Some of the reefs are comprised of miles and miles of shallow ultra clear water with prodominant coral colors that would put most tanks to shame. It is incorrect to think brown is the only "natural" color or the most common color of the natural reef. By using Zeovit or other similar pricipals we are only trying to replicate the fact that our corals are not stuck in an enclosed glass box.



I never said super colourful corals don't exist just that they are in the minority. As a matter of fact your third pic illustrates my point for me.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/88085097_37a0410736.jpg?v=0

Compare that to something like this month's TOTM at reefkeeping mag.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-07/totm/index.php

Quite a difference no?

Why would an animal dependent on photosynthesis invest some of it's energy in creating so many pigments that block PAR? It must benefit from it in some way and the only way that makes sense is the same reason you tan when you spend time in the sun, protection.

Look up some of Dana Riddle's articles on coral pigments for more explanation.


Also remember that the ocean does not have powerfull actinic lights poised over top of it; however, it does have the ultra power of the sun sitting somewhere around the 5500K range. Stick a 5500K rated 1000 watt light over your tank then see what the colors look like! One would be pretty surprised how dull they would look.


Well the sun happens to generate plenty of light in the 420nm range. Due to the water this light is moving through, shorter wavelengths are well represented at the depths you find photosynthetic coral.


I never said I disagreed with this methodology or others like it but I don't think the idea of promoting it as "natural" made any sense. If it works for you then great but don't try and tell me it's wonderful because it's "just like nature" or some such BS. Save it for the granola munchers in the smelly sandals. I'm not paying $30 for 2 grams of potassium with a pretty label on it.

[Patrick1]

midgetwaiter you work at a LFS?? by chance

[Oceanic]

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]I never said super colourful corals don't exist just that they are in the minority. As a matter of fact your third pic illustrates my point for me.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/88085097_37a0410736.jpg?v=0

Compare that to something like this month's TOTM at reefkeeping mag.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-07/totm/index.php

Quite a difference no?

Why would an animal dependent on photosynthesis invest some of it's energy in creating so many pigments that block PAR? It must benefit from it in some way and the only way that makes sense is the same reason you tan when you spend time in the sun, protection.

Look up some of Dana Riddle's articles on coral pigments for more explanation.



Well the sun happens to generate plenty of light in the 420nm range. Due to the water this light is moving through, shorter wavelengths are well represented at the depths you find photosynthetic coral.


I never said I disagreed with this methodology or others like it but I don't think the idea of promoting it as "natural" made any sense. If it works for you then great but don't try and tell me it's wonderful because it's "just like nature" or some such BS. Save it for the granola munchers in the smelly sandals. I'm not paying $30 for 2 grams of potassium with a pretty label on it.



Good point; however, take a frag off each coral you see in that pic and put them in an LFS, which coral are people most likely to buy? I happen to think that most of us populate our tanks by choice with the specimens that have a natural tendency to be more colorful than the next average coral. The picture does illustrate lots of browns and this is exactly why I posted it.

The corals pictured are all at about the same depth and receive the same amount of light; however, some are colorful and some are not. At the depth pictured the corals are getting less light in the 420nm range, the deeper they are the more light in the blue range they are getting (albeit less par).

Take these naturally colorful corals and flood them with high intensity blue spectrum light matched with bright 10k-20k halides, throw in excellent water conditions in regards to low nutrient saturation and what do you have?

TOTM at reefkeeping mag

Are these corals naturally colorful? I think the ones we choose happen to be. Remember that many of these corals are aqua cultured in the Ocean on big racks, they are then collected and shipped, strange how they show up with great color without having the opportunity to spend some time in a Zeovit tank first.


In regards to the suppliments, ie Potassium,

I agree that it is sometimes ridiculous to spend $30 for a bottle of Potassium. There are alternatives to the more frugal type persons like yourself. Many people are successfully using Potassium chloride from here....


http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=777&at=0

Essentially it is the same thing from what I understand. For those that do the research there are almost always cheaper options without the fancy labels.

[midgetwaiter]

midgetwaiter you work at a LFS?? by chance

Yeps I do. We don't sell any pro biotic systems currently but we may soon.

Keep in mind though that what I said here is my opinion and does not reflect my employer's etc etc.

[Oceanic]

Yeps I do. We don't sell any pro biotic systems currently but we may soon.

Keep in mind though that what I said here is my opinion and does not reflect my employer's etc etc.

:lol::mrgreen:

[Patrick1]

well I am not a big fan of fighting on the internet. Zeo is Zeo like it hate it. I think the point of this thread was to help out Drew with his zeo system. There are so many factors to a reef tank, lights, temp, etc, etc and I think the thread is getting hijacked by us.. Drew if you need help with your system just contact Albert he knows what he is doing and helped me with my system. The biggest change to my lousy start was cleaning and scrubbing out all the hairy goop then things ran a lot smoother.

Once you get in the habit and get things running it goes pretty smoothly even if your lazy like me and miss a few days. When I started zeo I was told flat out that it was no replacement for basic tank care cleaning etc. If you don't have good skills to begin with, then zeo is going to make things worse. If you have the basics down and want to improve your system to your tastes then zeo offers some things. I have seen zeo tanks with brown coral and I have seen some people with zeo tanks with pastels. Same with systems with out. I have established a tank that is very stable and looks the way I want it. I used zeo to get it that way. Are there other ways to do it I am sure there is, but for me zeo has paid off.

[Oceanic]

well I am not a big fan of fighting on the internet. Zeo is Zeo like it hate it. I think the point of this thread was to help out Drew with his zeo system. There are so many factors to a reef tank, lights, temp, etc, etc and I think the thread is getting hijacked by us.. Drew if you need help with your system just contact Albert he knows what he is doing and helped me with my system. The biggest change to my lousy start was cleaning and scrubbing out all the hairy goop then things ran a lot smoother.

Once you get in the habit and get things running it goes pretty smoothly even if your lazy like me and miss a few days. When I started zeo I was told flat out that it was no replacement for basic tank care cleaning etc. If you don't have good skills to begin with, then zeo is going to make things worse. If you have the basics down and want to improve your system to your tastes then zeo offers some things. I have seen zeo tanks with brown coral and I have seen some people with zeo tanks with pastels. Same with systems with out. I have established a tank that is very stable and looks the way I want it. I used zeo to get it that way. Are there other ways to do it I am sure there is, but for me zeo has paid off.

Who said anyone was fighting, this is good conversation! :mrgreen:

[christyf5]

Who said anyone was fighting, this is good conversation! :mrgreen:

Ditto! This kind of discussion/debate is awesome!


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b365/christyf5/lovethisthread.jpg

[Delphinus]

I agree, learning lots here.

Question for the zeo gurus, are there any deterministic tells that signal you're out of phase 1? I've been dosing like I'm in phase 1 for 3-4 months now, I'm not sure what to look for to tell me I can start cutting back? Or do you just do it (cut back) and see where things lie? I'm for both a rock and carbon changeout. My NO3 is 5.0ppm...

[Snappy]

The ocean doesn't look like zeo tanks. For every pastel blue "wonder zippy" acro you see on a reef there are hundreds of dull brown boring ones. The super pastel colours are an aberration, a defensive reaction to photo saturation in a low nutrient environment. Promoting Zeovit as a way to get a "natural" looking reef tank is seriously silly. Please don't take offence but it sounds like you've never been scuba diving on a reef before. As luck would have it I just got back from a holiday last night where I was diving and some of the sps colours I witnessed were absolutely amazing. That said not every sps is a bright colour but the most popular ones in the hobby are and zeo tanks can help them achieve their full potential. It's easy to keep a coral brown and still healthy but I personally enjoy a more colourful look. Now to address your point of "natural", since most of us have corals from many parts of the world together in a glass cage that would not be found together in nature the only way to get a true "natural" look would be to have a geographic specific tank. That goes for fish too.
I personally don't use zeo but I do carbon dose with pretty good results and I can tell you the principle behind them works. Yes you can achieve very good results without it but you can achieve even better results with it. I have tried many things and I'm not afraid to experiment and I can attest to the validity of zeo & carbon dosing. As mentioned it's not for everyone but since I tend to over stock I would have nitrate/phosphate problems without it. For me the hobby goes beyond just watching the tank, I enjoy the nuts & bolts of what makes what work, identification, propagation, photography, etc. One of the things that makes this hobby so great is there really is something for everyone at every level and you can taylor it to your own personal preferences.:biggrin:

[midgetwaiter]

Please don't take offence but it sounds like you've never been scuba diving on a reef before. As luck would have it I just got back from a holiday last night where I was diving and some of the sps colours I witnessed were absolutely amazing. That said not every sps is a bright colour but the most popular ones in the hobby are and zeo tanks can help them achieve their full potential. It's easy to keep a coral brown and still healthy but I personally enjoy a more colourful look. Now to address your point of "natural", since most of us have corals from many parts of the world together in a glass cage that would not be found together in nature the only way to get a true "natural" look would be to have a geographic specific tank. That goes for fish too.


No I haven't ever been diving, still on the to do list.

There's no question that some corals have amazing pigments in the wild. What I was saying is that it is more likely for them to have brown or at least more muted colours. It seems to me that the bright pigments you can get with a ULN system seem to be one of the leading reasons people try it out. As both Greg and Oceanic pointed out brightly pigmented corals are over represented in the hobby compared to any wild reef patch because those are the ones selected for collection and mariculture. Nothing wrong with that of course. Additionally everyone is trying to tailor their systems to encourage these pigments to develop further. Again there's nothing wrong with that, it's very attractive.

What gets me is when people charaterize this setup as "natural", it's just not. The meaning of natural has been so twisted when used to market products in every aspect of our lives, not just the hobby and it bothers me. Like Greg pointed out there's nothing natural about what we are doing with fish and corals in the first place. People read natural and they think it must be a simple or at least easy to manage system.

I'm not against Zeovit, I'm against bullsh*t. :)

If you look at Drew's original issues through my patented anti-bullsh*t filter it frames the problem he is having differently. What he's trying to do is establish and grow bacteria cultures to eliminate nutrients he doesn't want without any other things like cyano getting a hold of these nutrients and doing things we don't want with them. This would be tricky to do in a sterile petri dish but instead we're doing it in a closed system with god know what else growing in it and a limited ability to both measure and control the concentrations the nutrients involved. There may be too much of something, to little of something else etc.

I think that pretending that we have a clear, full understanding of how these things work, what factors influence them and what they really accomplish in the end leads to frustrations like Drew initially expressed. It's not a clear, simple or "natural" thing. Every system is different and therefore every implementation of the system must take into account these differences, many of which we can't measure or control very well. I would suggest that if Drew had looked at his problem from that point of view initially he wouldn't have been so frustrated.

Who knows maybe I am just an overly pedantic net troll but it is my natural behavior so it must be good right?
:p

[Jason McK]

Drew,
Getting back to your original issue. Cyano and other bacterias out competing your ZeoBac
That is what I believe to be your correct issue.
First if you are using anything other than the basic 4 stop.
Second, increase your Zeobac, if you are dosing every 3 day dose ever other day. Dose 1/2 your Bac dosage of ZEOFood7 at the same time as your Bac.
I would also dose 0.5ml twice a day of ZEOStar2 daily

Zeo is not an overnight solution and in established tanks can take as long as 6 months


I will not get into a debate on Zeo or what it does to corals. I have done my research and come to my own conclusions. I simply want to help.

J

[kwirky]

starting a tank fresh on a probiotic product is different from converting an existing one to a zero nutrient system. the problem is there'll be a longer time (and of course $$) investment before results happen.

Like albert said, throttle back your reactor and dose a little less than recommended. Running the reactor at a trickle works wonders. It's very hard to have too little flow through the reactor but very easy to have too much. Zeostart's the most likely of the basic 3 to cause algae and it may take up to 3 months for proper results to surface.

I don't recommend running phosphate media while using the zeovit because it'll interfere with the bacterial chain. There are about 40 common (and many more uncommon) nitrifying/denitrifying bacterial strains and these probiotic products rely on various strains working in a chain. Think assembly line. If one of those workers isn't present then the rest of the job doesn't get done. Running phosphate media will only hinder the performance of the system.

I agree that probiotic products are the key to getting impossible colours and good tank husbandry is required along with these systems. They aren't crutches. Everyone has their once a year "disaster" and maybe your tank's having it's disaster at the same time you decided to start zeovit. I think it's just coincidence.

Hang in there man! Things'll turn out! At least we're not in a hobby like breeding frontosa where you'll have to raise your fish for 4 years to HOPEFULLY have a breeding family ;)

[Delphinus]

Good gravy. Who would have a hobby like that?! :p

I switched the rocks out on mine last night as I was overdue for a changeout anyhow. I cranked the flow way back on the reactor (to a slow trickle). One thing that caught me off guard, wow, does that ever put out a lot of heat. I'm tempted to swap out the pump to something else. It raised my tank temp 3 degrees F, the only thing I changed was that I cranked the flow WAY back last night (because of the rock changeout) so I think it might be the Sedra on the reactor that's behind the sudden jump.

[Johnny Reefer]

Hello,

I'm going to be starting Zeovit in a few days. Great thread. A good eye opener to pay attention to the system. Been reading up and asking questions through other various resources. One question I haven't asked of anyone yet. That being about the flow rate and the adjustment of. Looking to get an idea of how folks know they are at, say, 50-75 gph, or whatever. Educated guesswork? A certain postion of the handle? Timing it into a bucket for 1 minute? (I imagine the latter method being somewhat difficult, what with the reactor in the sump).

Thanx much,

[christyf5]

I just guessed with mine but you could time it into a measuring cup or something smaller. My sump compartment is pretty cramped so hopefully I have it in the ballpark (its pretty dang slow).

[Aquattro]

Ya, just guessed.

[Jason McK]

Hello,

I'm going to be starting Zeovit in a few days. Great thread. A good eye opener to pay attention to the system. Been reading up and asking questions through other various resources. One question I haven't asked of anyone yet. That being about the flow rate and the adjustment of. Looking to get an idea of how folks know they are at, say, 50-75 gph, or whatever. Educated guesswork? A certain postion of the handle? Timing it into a bucket for 1 minute? (I imagine the latter method being somewhat difficult, what with the reactor in the sump).

Thanx much,
Basically if you have a 300GPH pump you then guess at the ball valve handle position 1/2 closed whould put you at 150GPH 3/4 closed would be 75GPH

J

[StirCrazy]

when is some one going to make an automated Zeo system like the balling method.. cuz untill then it is way to much work for us who just want to enjoy our tanks with a couple hours of cleaning every two weeks.

Steve

[fkshiu]

when is some one going to make an automated Zeo system like the balling method.. cuz untill then it is way to much work for us who just want to enjoy our tanks with a couple hours of cleaning every two weeks.

Steve

It seems like you've got to add a lot of stuff in drips and drabs and not everything goes in on a regular daily basis. Plus you've got to keep an eye on that zeo reactor. With enough dosing pumps and some programming it might be possible, but it wouldn't be simple that's for sure.

[Aquattro]

way to much work for us who just want to enjoy our tanks
Steve

You have a tank?? :)

I have to admit, I've missed a day here and there of my tweaking and twisting...

[Johnny Reefer]

Basically if you have a 300GPH pump you then guess at the ball valve handle position 1/2 closed whould put you at 150GPH 3/4 closed would be 75GPH

J
I didn't think it was that easy because, well, it's a ball and the hole in the ball has a curved edge and...ya, that. In other words, isn't it disproportional (is that a word?) because of the spherical properties of the hole? I wouldn't even begin to pretend I know how to calculate it, but I digress. If other folks are having success guessing, that's what I'll do to. I like the trickle description. That helps.

Thanx and cheers,

[trilinearmipmap]

Does anyone have a link for a concise explanation of the Zeovit system including a description of it methods and the costs involved both startup costs and ongoing maintenance costs?

[albert_dao]

Does anyone have a link for a concise explanation of the Zeovit system including a description of it methods and the costs involved both startup costs and ongoing maintenance costs?

http://canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=45578&highlight=zeovit+fauna

[StirCrazy]

You have a tank?? :)

I have to admit, I've missed a day here and there of my tweaking and twisting...

actualy have 3 running now... again. and soon 4 :neutral:

Steve