Importance of the Invoice [Archive] - Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board

naesco

03-21-2003, 08:49 PM

There is obvious misunderstanding from my post so let me clarify it.
Here is what I am saying.

If we are buying a tang, angel or trigger which are species known to be from the Phillippines and Indonesia we should be asking the following.
1. What is the country of origin of that tang or angel or trigger.
If the answer is Fiji and we trust the LFS or online store. We can walk out with our treasure knowing we do not have a cyanide fish.

If for any reason we suspect that it is not Fiji (Reef Raf said the box had the Phillippines written on it as an example) or they say they don't know we should ask to see the evidence of the origin of the fish.
If the LFS refuses we can assume that it is from the Phillippines or Indonesia.

This is not a business confidentiality issue at all.

This is the issue for all reefers. Cyanide not only kills fish it destroys the reef. Do you want to be part of a hobby that is responsible for this?

mikey_d18

03-21-2003, 09:09 PM

even if the owner shows the invoice and on the invoice is says the fish is from figi ect... does not mean it is........thats why its important for stores to have good relationships with there wholesaler.....its all about trust..........And it DOES have to do with business confidentiality because........its a business and store owners dont necessarily want everyone to know where they get there excellent quality of fish from........

Delphinus

03-21-2003, 09:39 PM

I don't know. At one time I'd certainly would agree with the statement that "some things are just none of the consumer's danged business" but I find that in today's reality, that is becoming more of a rare privledge. Company I work for has to produce invoices on demand... Hell, I have to provide a drivers abstract, submit random credit checks, or even pee into a cup if that's what turns my customers on. I don't like it one bit, and I'll happily tell the customer what I think of him if he asks for it ..... but after that, if I wish to remain employed, or to continue doing business, I have to comply. Tough patootie.

So I don't have one iota of sympathy anymore to those businesses who don't want to show me the invoice if I were to decide I need to see it. Confidentiality of suppliers is a load of crap unless somebody has something to hide. If they want, blot out the prices. I don't care if they make a 100% profit or whatever .... the point is I'm not in a position to buy $2000 of livestock by myself, so it's not like I'm going to go out and start importing things by myself. I recognize that the places I choose to do business with, need to make a profit if I wish for them to remain in business. And I do wish for them to remain in business, so that I can go shopping there again next month or next year. I certainly don't want to find myself with no LFS I can visit every now and again... I just want the LFS's to be clean and as green as possible. I don't think that's really too much to ask.

mikey_d18

03-21-2003, 09:51 PM

i couldnt imagine asking...........can i see your invoice so i know u arnt lieing???............i feel like its such a rude request

mikey_d18

03-21-2003, 09:55 PM

if u always have to ask to see the invoice to insure the salesperson is being honest, i dont think thats a store u would want to be shopping at

Aquattro

03-21-2003, 09:55 PM

Tony, sorry you don't like your job, but I would be more than willing to show you the door from my LFS if you demanded it was YOUR right to see MY stuff. Just wouldn't happen.

And what happens now is that I alienate myself from all the marine retailers in my city. That means I have to mail order my fish. But I'm told to never mail order a tang, 'cause I need to see it first. So to buy a tang, I have to take a day off from work(where I don't pee in cups, BTW :D ), catch a ferry to Vancouver for ~$100, drive to Coquitlam and pick a healthy tang from J&L(who probably wouldn't show me invoices either). So now I have a tang that cost me roughly $375. Is this what we seriously expect the consumer to do??? If you can answer yes to this, you're a kook!!

Ryan7

03-21-2003, 10:00 PM

reef raf,

first of all, if you ever told a customer to stick his head..... you would be out of business in a short time. So now it is fair for me to assume you are not a businessman.

If you believe the LFS when they tell you where the fish is from, without asking for any documentation, then it is also fair for me to asume that you believe the LFS when they tell you a fish is feeding, without actually seeing it feed, and when it doesn't feed, and they tell you it's becasue it was just fed before you got there, I asume you buy the fish anyway.

I worked at a fish store, and when reefers came in and asked questions like this, I respected them and knew they were not NEWBIES.

Any reputable LFS should be happy to show documentation requested by the customer, as they are entitled to know what they are buying.

Aquattro

03-21-2003, 10:08 PM

Ryan, telling insane customers to shop elsewhere is not going to put me out of business. And I think I have always stated that I do not believe in the myth of the reputable LFS.
I have learned to make a reasonable assesment of a fish by watching it in the store. Based on my experience, I have been fairly successful in picking healthy fish. And this is what I tell people to do.
In my city, we do not have any reputable stores I guess, because none will show me an invoice. So where do you suggest I shop?

naesco

03-21-2003, 10:17 PM

Aquattro

03-21-2003, 10:26 PM

Reef raf yours is a distinct problem. Perhaps you have said or done something to **** your LFS.
But please remember new reefers read this board and yours is poor advice.
There is nothing wrong and everything right in asking a LFS where a fish came from
There is nothing wrong and everything right in asking to see a fish feed.
My God, for the benefit of new reefers tell them that you agree with me please.

Mine is only hypothetical, I am still welcome in my local stores. But they do all get fish from the philipines.
There is nothing wrong with the intent of the act that you are suggesting, just that realistically, I don't think the new consumer will have any luck actually seeing an invoice.
The feeding thing came from the LFS clerk above, I have no idea why. Viewing feeding is reasonable and every LFS I've visited has obliged. Ryan is picking fights where there was none.

I realize I come across as an ass on this topic, but I think I am accurate in my portrayal of the industry. I truly admire the intent of your actions, and wish this topic didn't even need to be discussed. Unfortunately, greed is the motivator in many fish stores.
That is why I maintain that the consumer learn to look for signs of a healthy fish and does not need to rely on the "advice" of the LFS owner/employee. Oh, and make sure the fish feeds before taking it home.

Naesco, although it may not be obvious, you and I are on the same side. I just call a spade a spade, instead of hoping it turns to a diamond.

Troy F

03-21-2003, 10:31 PM

Keep it cool fellows, it's a hobby :) , we've all forgotten before (except me). I've seen invoices before and I don't think it would be to much of a problem to ask, they might say no and they might say here ya go. Knowing where the fish is collected is always a concern of mine and I always ask. John or Allen will just plain tell you where the shipment comes from and I'd believe them. I tend to do my business with retailers I can trust. There are retailers I don't trust, I wouldn't buy anything from them.

Brad, I'm not sure why you're so offended by this whole topic. In certain applications, the idea of seeing an invoice is crazy but on this topice considering the point of ethics and all, I think it a valid quiestion. I'm not saying the sheet will come out but no harm in aking. If one of my customers asks for a supplier I tell them, "I'm sure you can see why I'm not going to tell you that," and that ends it. I have customers asking for copies of my master keys, extracter keys and lock picks if you can believe it. I've yet to tell one to stuff their head up their ass, although, it is tempting at times.

Aquattro

03-21-2003, 10:38 PM

Troy, I'm certainly not offended, and I regret if I come across that way. No harm in asking is right, and I did just that today. They politely declined. All done, nobody left bleeding or anything :P .
I suppose also that my terminology in dealing with customers would not follow my comments here verbatim, just that I would have to ask you to shop elsewhere if you demanded to see my papers. I would not show them to you. Period. I will tell you, to the best of my ability, where the fish came from. If you imply I am not telling the truth, I really would not show you anything and would ask you to shop elsewhere.
We can certainly discuss this further in person during the tour and perhaps I can emphasize my point a bit better. Really though, I'm trying to be on the side of good in this!!! :D

justaguy

03-21-2003, 10:59 PM

Well, this post yet again tweaked my interest. while I sympathize with people who want to see where there fish is from I also disagree that they should have to show you there bill of lading or invoice. First of all there is information on there that you have no business knowing. Do I want you to know the name and contact number of my supplier? I think not! Do I want you to know how much I paid for the fish I think not! Hell who cares if I paid 1.00 got a flame angel... I have overhead, shipping ect. to pay for and you know what... I think I would be entitled to make a bit of a living for my self! After all why did I open a store in the first place? Let me tell you anyone who said they run a store because they love the hobby is only telling you ½ the truth. it is also because they want to make money. So Naesco I am not sure who you are or why you are the way you are. actually I really don’t care. but you come into my store asking to see an invoice for a fish you will be shopping somewhere else after you recover from being the first person to be thrown out of a store. You know what, why don’t you go to a lighting store and ask to see there invoice so you can see if you are paying to much for your lights or so you can make sure they get them from a specific supplier. I bet that will get you real far.

On a side note I would probably just laugh if I was asked that but if you persisted then I would probably get upset.

Jeff

Aquattro

03-21-2003, 11:04 PM

Jeff, Naesco is a guy who cares about the reefs, and the people that choose the reefs as their hobby. I don't agree in the way he does it, but I made a point of reading every post he's ever posted in 3 major boards. He means well. I think he's crazy, but I think a lot of people are crazy. Let's try and keep this as civil as possible, as I can see misunderstandings coming about. We're all friends here, right??

justaguy

03-21-2003, 11:15 PM

True and perhaps I was a bit hasty, but I think you can see that not only in the “hobby” but in most businesses this is the reaction you will get. Troy I respect that places let you see there invoices, and if it was a trusted friend of mine I would show them with out hesitation, but thing realistically about this, does Canadian tire really want you to know that there is a 150% mark up on tools? Or does “Joe blow” fish store really want you to know that there is a 400% mark up on flame angels for example. Also the invoice rarely shows how the real landed price of the fish shipping isn’t on it, DOA’s isn’t on it. All this has to be made up by raising the prices of the ones that make it.

Once again I wasn’t intending to insult only to show the absurdness of asking to see a companies invoice.

So to Naesco I apologize but I really do believe you are inciting more harm than good with your posts.

Jeff

Troy F

03-21-2003, 11:31 PM

Jeff we all know there's an obscene mark up and most of us understand it's a neccessary part of the business. What would be wrong with posting a copy of the invoice minus price and contact information? What we want (or at least some of us) is to know that the fish we're are considering buying are collected in an environmentally way. A store willing to go the extra distance in this area would have my business in a heart beat. All of this is moot, just shop at a place where you can trust the retailer. For me that's J&L Aquatics.

PS: I'm not sure which retailer you're working for ;) but I don't think you really want to be making threats of throwing people out for simply wanting to know where the fish came from. I know one place has threatened me (and then threatened to call the police when I disapproved of being threatened) and I've never shopped there again. I do go to laugh at the fire trap every once in a while but I've never bought a thing since.

Delphinus

03-21-2003, 11:44 PM

All I really meant was if I felt it necessary that I needed to see an invoice, that I wouldn't have a whole lot of sympathy for the protectionist argument. (To be clear I don't mind my job ... I was not complaining about my job!!!!) I kind of agree with the sentiment that if I DID feel I had to ask for an invoice, then I would probably wonder what it was I was doing shopping there. I currently don't make a habit of asking for invoices and I certainly don't feel a need to do so. I do, however, very often make a point to engage the LFS proprietor in a friendly conversation and I usually make a point to ask where the thing {whatever it is I'm looking at} came from. Generally they don't lie. If it came from Indonesia, I've been told they came from there. If it comes from an area where I know cyanide is rampant, then I might think twice. But I always make it a point to keep it on friendly terms. I don't know how to ask for an invoice and keep it friendly. It is a bit of an invasive question and could easily be construed as a hostile question as well, so it's a tricky situation.

But I have to agree with Naesco. I certainly don't want to actively participate in a practise that is destroying the reefs, so short of quitting the hobby, we need to proactively discuss what other things we can do.

cheers

EmilyB

03-21-2003, 11:59 PM

I guess I'm fortunate in the fact that when I became active in the hobby, I came to know the fish managers at several of the local stores quite well. Everyone KNEW about cyanide then, it's not a new thing. And these store managers didn't want those fish anymore than anyone else.

I shopped with some of these people at other stores in the city, and it was nothing to ask the origin of the fish. The type of person we were dealing with on the other end of the question had no problem in responding.

I guess I feel if they were lying, likely they would come across poorly to me in other areas as well, and I doubt I'd be shopping there, as I don't in certain city stores.

This isn't about seeing their prices etc. It's about dealing with people who take some interest in the survival of the hobby.

Now, if you have a supplier out there who is willing to show you proof of collection source without you even asking, then in my mind this sets a precedent for his competition to follow.

UnderWorldAquatics

03-22-2003, 12:13 AM

Well I just saw this thread and figured Id add my 2 cents...
This rant is based on personal experience from the business side of reefing.
As I mostly bring in higher end fish, I have alot of customers that want to know where the fish come from and what the capture method was. I tell them where the fish is from and how it was caught(to the best of my knowledge) Its really that simple, they ask, I tell... As for showing Any customer one of my purchase invoices, Hell No!!!!!!!!!! I have actually had a customer come over and ask to see my invoices because he said that he didnt want me to be making too much money off of him... I told him that as a special service, he could purchase anything he wanted at a min of 600% markup. :) No customer has the right to know what you purchased something at, so you can sell it as a service to put food on your table. "Yeah, Id like the lobster with the 6oz sirloin steak, Yeah Ill have the baked potato with chives please." "Oh what do you purchase your steak for when you buy it by hundreds of pounds? I know Im only buying 6oz but hey I figure you should carge me cost+mabey 10%, I think thats fair. And the lobster, yeah I know my aunt May in Nova Scotia gets them real big ones for a couple bucks each so yeah Id be willing to pay say $3.50 for the lobster portion. Yeah it sounds pretty absurd, but If you came to my store and asked me to show you my invoice, Id look at you like you just walked out of the loonie bin. And if your request persisted into a demand, I would let you know where the door is and let you know that my life would be alot better if I never heard from you again. I understand peoples concern with getting quality livestock, so find a store that looks like they have quality and then keep buying from them and support them so they can maintain that quality. So many times i see long time reefers that know where the quality stores are but they go hunting for livestock at the less than par stores looking for a deal and then they complain unceasingly about the poor quality livestock that died or made their whole tank sick. STAY AWAY FROM STORES THAT HAVE CRAP PRODUCT!!!!!!!! If you keep supporting them they just keep bringing in more sub par livestock. SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL STORE THAT CARRIES BETTER PRODUCT FOR A HIGHER PRICE!!!!!!!!!! There is a very good reason that they charge a little more for some things. And it is alot cheaper in the end. On a final note, dont ever ask to see my invoice, my business, not yours!!!

christyf5

03-22-2003, 01:00 AM

Am I missing something here? I thought when you guys wanted to see invoices you were interested in seeing WHERE the shipment was from not the price or the markup price or whatever. I think most know in this business that a flame angel costs $1.25 plus shipping and stuff. I used to work at a fish store and we could have shown the invoice to anyone who wanted to see it. We would prepare a copy of it without the price or suppliers name on it. Nobody ever asked to see it while I worked there.

Christy :)

naesco

03-22-2003, 01:12 AM

One more time please

I do not care how much you paid for the fish. It is none of my business.

Is there anyone on this thread who would not provide me with the answer to my question as to the origin of the fish?

Is there anyone on this thread who is too chickenPOOP to ask a LFS or online where the fish came from?

Come on reefers as Del puts it we want a green and clean industry.

We want to know that the fish we buy are not cyanide caught fish from the Phillipinnes or Indonesia.

Just a Guy if you disagree with the above please tell us the name of your store and where it is located Thanks

saltcreep

03-22-2003, 02:02 AM

This thread is actually quite amusing. Seeing an invoice and proving origin of a fish are two completely different issues. If a hobbiest asks a simple question of the origin of a fish, a simple answer should suffice. Why the necessity to pull invoices to verify this? The LFS should be taken for their word.

The price of the fish should also be a great clue. Ever see the price of a coral beauty from Fiji or Australia? Quite a bit more than that of the Philippines or Indo. Most fish are priced as they are because they come from PI or Indo.

Proving they are cyanide free is a whole other issue.

Christy...let me know where those $1.25 flame angels come from :wink:

Troy F

03-22-2003, 02:23 AM

... Seeing an invoice and proving origin of a fish are two completely different issues. If a hobbiest asks a simple question of the origin of a fish, a simple answer should suffice. Why the necessity to pull invoices to verify this? The LFS should be taken for their word.

I think because some LFS probably can't be trusted.

saltcreep

03-22-2003, 02:29 AM

If you can't trust a LFS with that type of answer, why would you shop there? Obviously there are a number of other factors to add to your distrust.

Troy F

03-22-2003, 03:25 AM

I wouldn't. Some people probably don't have a choice though, I think we're lucky to have as many stores as we do. We're able to choose.

UnderWorldAquatics

03-22-2003, 04:18 AM

As I said in my little rant, if a customer asks where a fish came from, I simply tell them. Its really very easy. If you didnt want to belive me or another store owner, then you really shouldnt be shopping at that business. As for invoices, well alot of fish in this hobby, fresh and saltwater, come from the phillipines/indo, boxes are reused many times and from what I know of alot of B.C. stores, alot of stores get their fish from a large wholesaler where you can get one shipment of fish that contains a fish from every part of the world known to man. Not many retail stores order direct from the source of livestock as the min orders are very high and a store dosent have enough tanks to house a single min shipment. What the box says that the fish came in means nothing, its a piece of cardboard that protects a styro box which holds little living jewels.(Fish,coral,inverts,plants.) As for what an invoice says on it, well it can really say anything the invoicer want it to, you probably dont want to hear this but alot of the companies that pump out the larger numbers of cynide caught fish, well they have the most stickers, stamps, and seals that guarantee net caught fish. As someone previously mentioned earlier in this thread, this is a business that relies alot on trust between business aquantiences, when I order from a suplier I can see the quality of their product and therfore order from them again, the same way hobbiests should deal with their LFS. My earlier rant touched more on the invoice money side, but at the same time my customer should trust me if I can contuinally provide top quality livestock at a decent price point. If you come to me saying that you dont belive me where the fish come from and want to see an invoice then I will most definitally take it as a direct insult. You are essentially calling me a liar to my face. Personally my livestock speaks for itself! As someone else mentioned earlier similar fish have very different prices, as I try to cater to a high end customer I only purchase high end fish and therefore pay a high end price and I most definatley pass that high end price to my customer. What my invoices say are my business, where fish come from is everybodys business.

zulu_principle

03-22-2003, 04:58 AM

Just my two cents,

Having a " right to know the origin of fish", not a god given right, but as a consumer you can demand anything you want as ultimately you purchase the product.

"Assumption as to where fish are from if they dont tell you is Indo/Philli", not the first one I would draw, but if the fish dies fairly quickly after purchase from an experienced salt water individual, maybe. As an aside, im sure I read somewhere that a local vet in Tsawwassen, Hoff who is well regarded at the aquarium will do testing after death.....

As for the confidentiallty of documents, if you are like Big Als in Richmond that proposes that all fish are non-cyanide caught then you should be able to back up your advertising. Otherwise buyer beware.

The business side of this hobby is a fact of life, there are many niches and low cost provider may not be suitable for all hobbiest, maybe the cream of the crop as at deepblue is more suitable, others with more experience can drive arround and look at many different retailers or wholesalers to "pick" their own fish.

My last point is "does the retailer really know where the fish is from", some of the confusion comes from staff who are not trained to deal on a retail level with experienced people or just dont know. Other comes from the wholesaler who packs their shipments in incorrectly marked boxes (sure :wink: )

Maybe some of the wholesalers can tell us what the retailers require and what they provide ?

What is it that the wholesaler provides to this equation thats not passed on the the retail customer to alleviate this concern and confusion for the hobbiest.

Wendell

zulu_principle

03-22-2003, 05:00 AM

Oh Sam

Great topic :BIG:

Troy F

03-22-2003, 05:47 AM

I'm really kind of blown away by the attitude of some of the people that either appear to be in the retail end or are in the retail end of this. The burden is on you to satisfy the customer and as things progress and the hobbyist becomes more educated you will have to meet these demands or you won't be in business. If we ask to see documentation of some sort to prove where an order is coming from then it should be made available. As Christy and Naesco said, we're not interested in the price. We all know about the mark up. If you're getting your fish from a place that brings in fish from all over the place and you don't know where they came from, maybe you should change your supplier. If those that are trying to educate the hobbyist can't reach enough people through mediums such as this, we'll find our hobby policed from the outside.

I think the retailers of the area could do the hobby some good by getting together and setting some standards. If it costs more to bring in ethicaly captured critters then price fix. I know this isn't going to happen but it would solve a lot of the problems. Competition between the various retailers causes as many problems as it solves in certain cases. You can't purchase Goniapora spp. at J&L's but I'll bet you guys can find it if you want it.

DBA, how are many of the people to know if the retailer tells the truth. They know that many of the Philippine and Indo fish are cyanide caught so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think some may not be forthright.

Big Al's have a lab report stating that such and such fish were tested (I think it was clowns and if they need cyanide to catch clowns then we have some serious problems) and were certified cyanide free. The certificate is from back in '99 I think. How many shipments since then have come out of the Philippines and what do you think the odds are that they were all cyanide free?

So many times i see long time reefers that know where the quality stores are but they go hunting for livestock at the less than par stores looking for a deal and then they complain unceasingly about the poor quality livestock that died or made their whole tank sick. STAY AWAY FROM STORES THAT HAVE CRAP PRODUCT!!!!!!!! If you keep supporting them they just keep bringing in more sub par livestock. SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL STORE THAT CARRIES BETTER PRODUCT FOR A HIGHER PRICE!!!!!!!!!! There is a very good reason that they charge a little more for some things. And it is alot cheaper in the end. On a final note, dont ever ask to see my invoice, my business, not yours!!!

This is such a great point. And, not only should we support the place that carries better product when we buy their livestock but we should support them with our drygood purchases too. Squibbling over a few bucks here and there is pointless if you give your business to an unethical retailer. There are stores around here that I wouldn't buy my dog food from, never mind aquarium livestock or supplies, and I don't care if they had the cheapest friggin' prices on the face of the earth.

BCOrchidGuy

03-22-2003, 06:03 AM

I believe I am the one responsible for the whole idea of seeing an invoice when I said my LFS will pull out the invoice when ever I ask about origon or what kind of a deal can I get... The invoice and the calculator come out. I can ask and see the invoice at anytime, I know what the store buys the fish for and I can see where the shipment came from. Do I care what the store pays for the fish, NO, although I like to know, what I care about is can I afford the fish, lets face it, if you go into your LFS and see a French Angel for $25 guaranteed net caught........ well.. (insert imagination)
My LFS is unique in alot of ways, I know alot of you don't like them and I have issues with them from time to time, but I have always been able to work out those issues.
CBA, I don't blame you for wanting to make a few $$ off of your fish, not many people try to make a living off of selling stuff for less than cost...

My personal belief is that retailers need to make $$, it is the way they deal with me that makes me a loyal customer. If I feel like I donate my paycheque at the front desk when I walk in, I probably wont go back, if I feel I get a fair deal for the service and the livestock I recieve I will go back. I won't pay $2 for a flame angel if the service is poor, mind you I wouldn't pay $500 for one if the service was great.

I don't think this thread is ridiculous at all, I do think this thread shows our outlook on the hobby, our priorities in finding a favorite LFS, and what we look for in a retailer.

We are all different, no one is a kook for asking questions, no one is an idiot for pressing for information from the retailer. Sure you may get kicked out for asking a question, but what if the retailer says sure, lemme get it for you.

This hobby is made up of people from different back grounds, some people are more conservation minded, some are more pocket book minded. Some just don't care, the trick is to educate people as to why we don't want to support stores that sell cyanide caught fish.

One question I would like to ask, What do I look for as a consumer when I am in a fish store and suspect the fish may be cyanide caught. Will the fish show obvious signs that will tip me off? I know most if not all fish are drugged for shipping to reduce the stress etc... but after that wears off, what do I look for in determining how a fish was caught?

mikey_d18

03-22-2003, 06:31 AM

cyinide caught fish usually look like hand caught fish when there first brought in........the way of detecting cynide caught fish is.....after the first week or so the fish stops eating.....unless the fish wasnt eating from the start.........they dwindle down to nothin.........also lack of colour and heavy breathing are signs that the fish might be cynide caught..........also the ovbiously to good to be true prices like $10 flame angels........they usually are to good to be true!!! and i believe the area where they use cyinide the most is the phillipines

UnderWorldAquatics

03-22-2003, 06:45 AM

"DBA, how are many of the people to know if the retailer tells the truth. They know that many of the Philippine and Indo fish are cyanide caught so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think some may not be forthright. "

I feel that if you walk into a store and feel that there is something fishy going on "lol" there quite posibly could be. Get to know your LFS before making any purchases, you should be able to get a very good idea as to how trustworthy they are. I know that there is alot of hype about cynide caught fish from the phillipines, and it is true to an extent, but there are also alot of nice healthy fish coming from the phillipines. If your LFS store is getting alot of cynide fish you will notice by observing their in tank fish, and you will definitally notice by purchasing cynide caught fish, you will most likely have dead fish. If this is the case I can only recommend you notify your suspicions to your LFS and they see what they do about it. This is when I would recommend you start making "ALL" of your purchases at a LFS that seems to always have healthy livestock, if you buy the sale item from the LFS that has the poor quality livestock you might as well be the one dumping cynide into the reefs, because your support of the unethical LFS leads to more cynide fish. DO NOT support your LFS that seems to consistantially have poor quality livestock as this only keeps them in business. This is something that is most dependant on educated reefers like the ones on this board. Also on another note, there are certian organizations set up that will give their seal of aproval verifying cynide free fish, personally I take it with a grain of salt, some people are only in the positions they are in to make absurd amounts of money and they will put their stamp on anything that comes from the man who paid for their new BENZ. The industry is in a pretty sadly run state if you ask me, there are alot of great people that are in the business cuz they love the livestock, but there are more that are in the game because they see a chance to make an absurd amount of money off of a plot of ocean that is far away from their home. I am in a unique situation that I can purchase direct from the source when I want and sell direct to the consumer. I also sometimes out of convience buy from other wholesalers that I have a good relationship with and I trust their livestock to be of the best health. I personally dont sell much to "Hobbiests" most of my customers have more money than they know what to do with, so they want an aquarium, they have tanks cuz its a symbol of sucess, like the tanks im putting together right now,"588gallon seamless 60"diameter cylinder that is 4'tall, best of everything, yeah its $50,000.00 but hey it looks damb good!" my customers have a 6month guarntee on all their livestock if I have supplied all the livestock, I can do this because I know what Im putting in their tanks, my fish are also all net caught to the best of my knowledge and my customers pay a premium for this piece of mind. I hope that some on this board will have a chance to visit my facility that is being built, I am definatally at an advantage over a "Pet Store" and am able to concetrate on quality. Well basically the hobbiests out there can make an ethical decision to NOT SUPPORT certain LFS and they can make their purchases at the very obvious caring respectable ethical LFS. Well its getting late and the beer is needing a refill, Ill tie this one off for know...
I dont mean to insult anyone but I know how I run my business and I try to know where my livestock comes from, I actually make sure the customer knows where its from. I personally would take it as a huge insult if someone came and saw my livestock and asked to see an invoice after I just told them where it is from.

DBM

03-22-2003, 07:08 AM

If the retailer has a coral beauty from Fiji, don't worry he'll let you know - he has to justify the more expensive price. Otherwise it's from Indonesia or the Philippines. More than likely your retailer will tell you the truth as to where it came from (if they even know). IMHO asking to see an invoice is arrogant if you've already asked them.

You can't tell the origin of a fish from a list anyways (if it came from a wholesaler). If it came from a transhipper you should assume it came from Indonesia, Philippines, and occasionally Sri Lanka (net caught), unless it came in with Fijian live rock.

You can't tell a cyanide caught fish from a net-caught one in a retailer's tanks, there is no way to tell - no matter what people are telling you. Crappy livestock in your retailer's tanks is most likely attributed to poor handling.

GregJ

03-22-2003, 07:27 AM

I'm curiuos to know why everyone is so hungup on a peice of paper? Do you know how easy it would be to doctor one of those! At least you can catch the crappy LPS stores in a lie, if they have to come up with some sort of story. Wait until every LFS store has a copy of there invoice, with everything but the loction blacked out, then it will really be hard to tell the good from the bad. Personally I think that it's great when someone takes the time to talk to me, and would find it insulting after they spent time telling me about the fishes location to ask to see the invoice, I mean whats the point then, they might as well hire someone for $8 an hour if all they're going to be doing is showing an invoice. I have found that most of the good people in this hobby are in it because they love what they do and will spend the time to talk to you. Besides most of the good LPS have some sort of guarentee, and it isn't really in there interest to sell you a fish that your going to return. I'd like to think that there are still good people out there and that I can still count on someones word without having to see some invoice. That said, there are also idiots out there that think they know everything, but again either I catch them saying something stupid and go talk to someone else or I live and learn, either way there out of my life and won't get any praise from me when asked. Just my .02

ron101

03-22-2003, 08:17 AM

Do you know how easy it would be to doctor one of those!

That's what I'm thinking. So you tell the salesperson that you are concerned about cyanide caught fish and ask him where the fish came from and he tells you. Either he is, to the best of his knowledge, telling you the truth or he is being unscrupulous and telling you a lie.

Sure there is a humane reason for asking to see an invoice in this case but like someone else said, try that at a hardware store and you will likely be promptly and politely denied; it is just not good business. Not to mention that if you are being told a lie then what is to say the unscrupulous salesperson won't show you a bogus document.

I asked the salesperson at one of the big LFS about cyanide caught fish ni general. I was surprised to hear him admit that all their shipments are claimed to be drug free but that personally, he didn't believe it. Apart from using one's own observation and perhaps asking to see the fish eat and to hold it for 24 hours w/deposit I don't think there is more than a customer can reasonably expect.

TimT

03-22-2003, 09:03 AM

I guess I'll put my rambling two cents in too.

Just because a fish eats well and slowly starves does not necessarily mean cyanide poisoning. Fish, like humans, get roundworms and tapeworms.

There are many diseases; bacterial, viral, protozoan, cestodes, trematodes etc that will kill fish very quickly and mysteriously. The method used to acclimate a fish can also cause sudden mortality at a later time. ie float and dump. Also, just because the "tank parameters" happen to be OK the moment they were tested does not necessarily mean that they are Ok at night. ie dissolved Oxygen

One can not even be sure that the supposed target species are cyanide caught. It depends on the exporter, do they have their own collectors on salary or do they buy from the "free lancers" or middlemen. How experienced are their collectors?? The inexperienced ones will use cyanide while the experienced ones know they can catch more fish using nets, and they will be able to catch fish there year after year. Some of the older exporters also know this and don't allow their salaried collectors to use cyanide.

We want to know that the fish we buy are not cyanide caught fish from the Phillipinnes or Indonesia.

Naesco, are you saying ALL fish from the Philippines are cyanide caught?

On principle I do not import Tangs, Triggers, Angels, Butterflies from Indonesia, nor would I buy one imported from Indonesia, nor would I shop at a store that listed Indonesia as a source for them. I import those species from my supplier in the Philippines, I can be 100% sure that they are cyanide free.

While on the "showing customers the invoice" topic. If a customer asks me where a fish comes from I will tell them. Those coral beauty's are from the Philippines, those ones over there are from Tonga, that one is from Fiji etc. If they insist on seeing an invoice then they are calling me a liar and that will be the end of the discussion. If they doubt I would tell them the truth on origin should they not also doubt that I would tell them which fish are from what source??

Some of the very best Philippino netsman went to the Red Sea to train collectors there. I believe they are still there.

You can't purchase Goniapora spp. at J&L's but I'll bet you guys can find it if you want it.

Troy, please do not judge an animals ability to survive in captivity or its appropriateness for captivity based on whether an LFS can keep it alive.
There are many factors that can greatly affect an animals chances of survival in captivity, the majority of these happen before the animal even lands in Canada or Los Angeles.

Big Al's have a lab report stating that such and such fish were tested (I think it was clowns and if they need cyanide to catch clowns then we have some serious problems) and were certified cyanide free. The certificate is from back in '99 I think.

At least they went to the effort to get one. I think they are the only store that did that and I am sure they must have paid more for those fish.

Did ya know they use cyanide to catch wild bangaii's. Why not just throw a barrier net over the urchin and bangaii's. One would think it's pretty simple.

Cheers,
Tim

Samw

03-22-2003, 10:09 AM

To everyone on the business side, thanks for expressing your open and candid answers. Up to this time, I could only speculate on the appropriateness of making invoice requests from a business. Now, it is fairly clear to me what kind of response to expect, which is reasonable to me.

Van down by the river

03-22-2003, 12:46 PM

Great post Tim,

Okay my turn to rant.

A good aquarist uses his experience, common sense, and knowledge to judge a fish based on quality, health, appearance, behaviour, and feeding.

Truly, the invoice, time of day,colour of the aquarium, the dow jones, or wether the store clerk helping you has brushed his teeth this morning has little real relevance.

So I think we have established that it's GOOD to ask were they came from.
The invoice is NOT important.
To those that keep harping on the invoice I think it was quite clear and unanimous "NO" from the retailers.
(Tell you what, you send me a statement of your earnings,wage,debt load, credit report, and tax return.......and I'll send you some wholesalers lists......Let me guess it's none of my business right? Get the picture?)

Besides, many of you probably have cyanide caught fish swimming in your tank as we speak.

I'll also say the dirty words: By the way, Cyanide didn't kill all those fish!
Some of them, dare I say it, were your(the aquarists) fault!
Cyanide is a important issue, but it's often a scapegoat for bad husbandry.

Yes sometimes you do need to tell the customer were to go!
Yes I've done it. I've spent countless hours educating,chatting,learning,and discussing with wonderful customers and peers over the years (Wether they bought something or not). In fact It's one of the biggest benefits for me. So I have no shame in telling a jerk to get lost!

There are a 1000 things more important to look for in a store before the "show me your invoice or I'll go somwhere else approach".

Stores DON'T Pay $1.00 for Flame Angels!!!! or have a 400% markup on them. :shock:

What's wrong with posting a modified invoice? Don't you think they have 1000's of other things that would benefit their store better? Maintaining a fish store is no small feat.
Seeing the invoices won't change the hobby. You want to make a change?
Buy a membership in one of many fish/wildlife protection organizations for starters. Pay more for captive bred. etc

Think you got a cyanide caught fish? Get it tested, I believe the cost is $200 plus(2nd hand info)......... Or maybe that Regal Angel,Rock Beauty,etc wasn't really eating to start with....

naesco: nobody ever said that they wouldn't tell you where the fish came from.

BCOrchidGuy: No they don't drug fish to ship them!!
The colored water is usually just preventative antibiotics.
The only time I have heard of sedatives, is for very large fish being moved in public displays. It is risky to the animal/fish and is usually done by a Vet.

Nothing like a good debate to get everyone to participate!!!!!! :lol:

MitchM

03-22-2003, 01:10 PM

Up to this time, I could only speculate on the appropriateness of making invoice requests from a business. Now, it is fairly clear to me what kind of response to expect, which is reasonable to me.

That's the great thing about these BB's, isn't it? :D

My advice is to approach an LFS with the intent of establishing a relationship of mutual respect, not an "us vs. them" approach.
Instead of going in half-cocked like you're a holier-than-thou reefer, and you have just caught them at something bad, educate yourself around the issues and logistics involved in running an LFS, and don't complain about their prices!
I've found that good LFS's are more than willing to discuss issues around the industry in a civil manner.

Mitch

Troy F

03-22-2003, 04:12 PM

Troy, please do not judge an animals ability to survive in captivity or its appropriateness for captivity based on whether an LFS can keep it alive.
There are many factors that can greatly affect an animals chances of survival in captivity, the majority of these happen before the animal even lands in Canada or Los Angeles.

Give me a break Tim, if the odd goniapora survives for a year or so in hobbyists' tank and an even fewer number survive longer than that we can probably assume they're better left in the ocean. I respect a retailer who know this. It's like pacific host anemones, once they're in a good tank their survival rate is fairly good. However, if the majority of them die in the store's tanks maybe they too should be left in the ocean. If the hobby can't survive doing what's right maybe there shouldn't be a hobby.

At least they went to the effort to get one. I think they are the only store that did that and I am sure they must have paid more for those fish.

Did ya know they use cyanide to catch wild bangaii's. Why not just throw a barrier net over the urchin and bangaii's. One would think it's pretty simple.

The point is that they did it a long time ago and it's more or less false advertising because it means nothing today. I'd rather know that with every shipment and pay a little more.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm arguing over invoices (I'm not actually). I've seen a few but I've never asked, nor would I and more or less for the reasons our hot-blooded retailers have expressed. I agree with whomever said, "if you can't trust them, don't shop there". I shop at retailers that I can trust. My points are more along the lines that we have to demand healthy, net caught fish. We should shop at stores that can tell us where they come from. Like I said earlier, if they're coming from a wholesaler and there's no way of telling where they came from; maybe we shouldn't be supporting that business. Someone else mentioned that the facilities are of equal importance and that is a great point too. What difference does it really make if "GIANT PET STORE" gets net caught fish if there staffs' husbandry skills are too poor to keep them healthy.

The truth is that the majority of hobbyists won't pay more for anything and that will be the bottom line for determining where fish come from.

Troy F

03-22-2003, 04:24 PM

One last point (and this is a bit of back tracking, I'm arguing more for the sake of the argument) to the retailers who take such great offense at someone questioning them. You expect people to believe that you tell the truth because you say so and if they don't like it they can go **** up a rope, right? There are a thousand other industries out there that have honest people working and they have to provide certification proof in some way or another. How many of you retailers know your all of your customers and can vouch for their honesty. If I were to ask someone for documentation I assure you it wouldn't be because I don't like or trust you it's because I don't know you and don't want to have to spend all my time trying to figure out whether I do like you and trust you. Let's face it, there are retailers out there that are using the cheapest suppliers they can find and in effort to ease a concerned hobbyists mind, it may be of an advantage for you to provide such documentation.

Troy F

03-22-2003, 04:27 PM

Last thing...really.

A good aquarist uses his experience, common sense, and knowledge to judge a fish based on quality, health, appearance, behaviour, and feeding.

Doesn't matter how "good an aquarist" you are, cyanide caught fish are impossible to really tell.

sumpfinfishe

03-22-2003, 06:11 PM

Nice post Sam!

I would in fact buy fish from a trusted LFS without seeing anything on paper.
The underlined word above says it all for me. I have been reefing now for 6 years. When I first started out in the hobby I did loose a few fish, some of those loses were my fault and some were not. Over the past 6 years I have come to trust certain LFS's for there livestock, with that said I won't buy fish from other LFS if I believe I can't trust them.

Finally, if I was a reefer just starting out in this hobby, instead of asking for an invoice to put my mind at ease, I would instead ask local reefers at meetings or on boards like this one through private messages where they purchase there fish from and how there survival rates are. After my first year in the hobby, I can honestly say that I have not lost a fish in a short time after purchasing it.

And just for the record, no I'm not calling you a rookie Sam, that was just for the beginners :biggrin:

UnderWorldAquatics

03-22-2003, 07:43 PM

Troy, please do not judge an animals ability to survive in captivity or its appropriateness for captivity based on whether an LFS can keep it alive.
There are many factors that can greatly affect an animals chances of survival in captivity, the majority of these happen before the animal even lands in Canada or Los Angeles.

Give me a break Tim, if the odd goniapora survives for a year or so in hobbyists' tank and an even fewer number survive longer than that we can probably assume they're better left in the ocean. I respect a retailer who know this. It's like pacific host anemones, once they're in a good tank their survival rate is fairly good. However, if the majority of them die in the store's tanks maybe they too should be left in the ocean. If the hobby can't survive doing what's right maybe there shouldn't be a hobby.

Im going to back Tim up on this one, if you cant keep goniapora or host pacific anemones alive then you are most likely not properly caring for them. Some exceptions such as bad shipping or poor handling. You should also refrain from trying to keep them untill you have the knowledge needed to properly care for them. I have seen both host anemones and goniapora florish in my facility, flourish in Tims facility, and flourish in my customers tanks. I have many customers with goniapora that they have cared for for over 4 years. Out of about 50 gonipora I have brought in over the last 2 years I only know of 1 that died. If you keep goniapora in a tank setup for SPS of course it wont make it, it needs specialized care! If you would also notice that the stores that have problems keeping certain species, also usually have poorer quality livestock. Or they dont bring it in cuz they dont have the time to take care of its special requirements. I have one customer that refers to host anemones as the plauge as he usually has about 4-5 anemone splits per month. This happens because he properly cars for his anemones

Aquattro

03-22-2003, 08:19 PM

I'm just going to add one more thing to this......I just went back to the LFS and looked at the invoice from yesterday's fish order (by the nature of my relationship with the owner, I am allowed to see it) and NOWHERE on the invoice does it state the origin of the fish. It has the letterhead info of the seller, a list of fish, and the cost of each fish. Nothing more. Period. The invoice does not tell me if the fish is from the north pole or Tahiti.
So, while this has been an enlightening thread, I think it is also a pointless thread, from the invoice side of things anyway.

I also visisted the LFS #2 in town, and they would not show an invoice either. The clerk did state the supplier is generally the same as LFS #1.

Troy F

03-22-2003, 08:28 PM

Sorry DBA, you must know something the rest of the hobby doesn't. I don't believe your 49:50 survival rate on goniopora for even a second. I'm not new to the hobby here, you may sell that to the unsuspecting but c'mon man. "For currently unknown reasons, Goniopora have a long history of failing to survive in the the aquarium, often going into a slow demise for no apparent reason." Eric H. Borneman. As for your reference to anemones, I think you should re-read my post. Another point is that the quality of care these animals receive is not always the same. Your friend with the splitting BTAs is doing something right but if you want to see the amount of people that aren't doing so well with them have a read around the boards and then imagine that they're just the ones that post their loss and of that we're still the minority of people that use the bbs compared to those that purchase marine livestock.

It sounds like you have a very specialized clientelle. On one hand you've told us that your clients are rich and just want something to look good and next you're saying that they are able to care for the most difficult species that have the lowest survival rate. Something's wrong with your story.

naesco

03-22-2003, 09:53 PM

DBA
I am sorry but I don't beleive your story either.
You need to contact our well know reefing expert, Eric Borneman and advise him and the other experts who are currently studying this coral.
Let him know your and your coutomers secret to keeping them because the rest rest of the world can't keep them alive.
Borneman is of the opinion that this coral is an impossible to keep coral and should be banned from import.

Samw

03-22-2003, 10:06 PM

There are various species of Goniopora and from what I read, some of them are not impossible to keep. I tend to believe that.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2002/invert.htm

"In my opinion, it is wrong to generalize that all "Goniopora" are difficult to keep. There are numerous species, and they behave differently in captivity. I reported (Sprung, 1999a, Sprung 1999b) that certain species of Goniopora are easy to keep, contrary to popular belief, and that most Alveopora are similarly hardy"

"These "easy Gonioporas" are the ones with which I have had long-term success, in excess of five years. More recently I have been working on Goniopora stokesi. I believe I have discovered what it needs to prevent and cure the wasting condition, and why it occurs, but before I explain that, I want to review the state of opinion among aquarists concerning the genus."

"Goniopora cf. somaliensis has been imported from Indonesia with some regularity, and it is popular owing to the fact that it is among the hardiest species. It fares well both in low light low flow aquariums and bright light strong flow aquariums"

"Goniopora tenuidens is known to have other color combinations, and the species I am discussing may in fact be another species, though it matches no other in Veron (2000). This species fares well under strong illumination and moderate water flow, but it appears to require supplementation with iron and manganese"

naesco

03-22-2003, 10:19 PM

SamW
By the way thank you for starting this thread.
Most of the posts were excellent.
I remember when I first started it was a little difficult to ask the LFS if the fish I was interested in was eating. Now no one would consider buying a fish without seeing it eating.

We are now half way on the education of reefers on the cyanide issue.
All reefers will now be asking where the fish they are interested in comes from as a matter of course and hopefully the onlien stores and LFS will get cyanide free fish and answer truthfully.
The next step will be "Will you please show me where the fish came from." :smile:

UnderWorldAquatics

03-23-2003, 05:06 AM

"In my opinion, it is wrong to generalize that all "Goniopora" are difficult to keep. There are numerous species, and they behave differently in captivity. I reported (Sprung, 1999a, Sprung 1999b) that certain species of Goniopora are easy to keep, contrary to popular belief, and that most Alveopora are similarly hardy"

I never said what species of goniapora I had good success with. It would be much more polite to ask for some additional info on the subject before jumping to conclusions. The various species of goniopora and alveapora I have cared for for have done very very well in my care, and in my customers tanks, which I maintain!!! I use these corals in my customers tanks because they want something pretty, and I want it to be easy to care for, I am busy and dont want to be checking up on overly finicky corals every day. Also I said I had a customer that has good success with BTA's, well he does, true most of my customers are rich and just want a pretty tank, but I do have a few hobbiests that buy from me, he is one of them. No need to jump to conclusions, if something seems like it dosent jive, just ask whats up...

EmilyB

03-23-2003, 05:14 AM

W O W :eek:

Samw

03-23-2003, 06:47 AM

What's up? I'm lost. Who's jumping to conclusion? That was a quote from Julian Sprung who isn't a participant in this discussion. Hence, the QUOTATION MARKS. I was trying to explain that not all Gonioporas are impossible to keep. I didn't even mention what kind you might even have as I was not even replying to your post.

See http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2002/invert.htm for the entire article. See paragraph 2 if you want to know where that quote came from.

What did I do to get on your bad side?

"In my opinion, it is wrong to generalize that all "Goniopora" are difficult to keep. There are numerous species, and they behave differently in captivity. I reported (Sprung, 1999a, Sprung 1999b) that certain species of Goniopora are easy to keep, contrary to popular belief, and that most Alveopora are similarly hardy"

I never said what species of goniapora I had good success with. It would be much more polite to ask for some additional info on the subject before jumping to conclusions. {SNIP} No need to jump to conclusions, if something seems like it dosent jive, just ask whats up...