Red slime Vs. Dinoflaggelates (sp?)

[Keri]

So I have a problem

I thought it was red slime but I'm not so sure anymore, it's become stringier and is actually WORSE in areas of high flow, all my sps have brown banners of snot and they look very unhappy. We've been doing water changes and trying to manually suck the stuff out but it just seems to disperse, it's hard to get a good clump of it all at once like cyano.

My question is: Anyone know if I take some of this mung to work and look at it under a microscope will I be able to tell the difference between cyano and dinos? And can anyone point me to a good thread on how to get rid of it? The ones I've looked at never seemed to go very far.

Thanks!!

[banditpowdercoat]

You tried Lights out method? I have been fighting Dino/Cyano. Acctually thought they are the same? But mine is stringy, seems to increase in higher flow areas too. Also cant grab it at all. I cover tank once a month for 2 days, and sand is brilliant white. Starting to reduce now, hasnt come back like it used to, just a couple small patches

[Keri]

I have not tried that! I will. Will the corals be ok?

Is it really that simple to fix? I keep finding so much conflicting information on dinoflaggelates that I'm not even sure what causes it! I had heard silicates? but I have no silicates...or phos... *shrug*

[Delphinus]

It just comes. It may be a response to nutrients but it might not.

It sounds like dinoflagellates. It's horrible to deal with and it's toxic to your snails.

I wouldn't say it's as easy as "lights out" because it can take several attempts and it needs to be as long as you can stand (at least a week). AND your corals will definitely get stressed, AND you'll need to acclimatize your tank back to lighting levels. ie. lights on for 20 minutes, 40 minutes off. After a few days, change it to 30 on 30 off. After a few days 45 on, 15 off and finally (by now it's at least a week post-lights-out-treatment) back to full on.

Lights-out treatment is the only way to deal with dinos. Cyano you can treat with red-slime treatment, dinos will not be adversely impacted by anything like that. You have to starve them of what they desire most, which is light.

Good luck. If it is dinos you will have a very tough slog ahead of you.

[fkshiu]

It does sound like the dreaded brown snot.

When you do the lights out, you must ensure that the light is completely out including all ambient light. Cover the tank with a tarp if you have to without suffocating it. I'd siphon out as much of it as you can to begin with as well and do a big WC.

[niloc16]

sounds like dinos. i lost a ton of stuff fighting it with no luck. i blackout the tank for 8 days and that got rid of it

[banditpowdercoat]

Ya, Corals will be just fine. Like stated, need complete blackout. I wrapped a towel around mine. As far as corals and light, therye are cloudy periods in the ocean too, right? Alot of corals are also shipped 3-4 days in a box, no light before you get them, so they should be just fine. When its time for lights to come back, i only have light a couple hrs the frist day, then back to the schedual

[Keri]

Sadness...


Well, I'll try siphoning and lights out and WC.... I wish the stuff would siphon out better!!
I might still take a sample to work sand look at it under the scope, i'll try to get a pic of it and maybe someone will know.

My snails appear to be doing ok tho....should I move them to another tank? Can I supplement their food with anything? If I put the snails from the 65 into the 27 there definately won't be enough algae to go around. Is there any risk of transferring the dinos from one tank to the other this way?
Should I bring some coral over too? I onlyt have PC lights on the 27 tho....insufficent light may be better than none at all?

[banditpowdercoat]

Snails should be fine. Mine are not bothered by it

[Keri]

Can I cover the tank in tinfoil? it shouldn't hurt as long as it's not touching the water, right?

And ....the fish are going to be hungry, no?

[Skimmerking]

Ya, Corals will be just fine. Like stated, need complete blackout. I wrapped a towel around mine. As far as corals and light, therye are cloudy periods in the ocean too, right? Alot of corals are also shipped 3-4 days in a box, no light before you get them, so they should be just fine. When its time for lights to come back, i only have light a couple hrs the frist day, then back to the schedual

I have to disagree with you on the lighting period Dan not to sound negitive to your post , let's look at the sun when its out you are getting Omega A and B in which the corals take from. When its cloudy out you are still getting B rays, not the Alpha rays. SO in true terms turning the lights totally off you are depleting the corals of any Alpha or Beta rays. and then that is where the corals tissues are lacking the proper sun light. causing them to grow and convert sun light in to growing tissues.

[banditpowdercoat]

Fish will not starve, they can go weeks without food acctually.

Tinfoil? Ya as long as its not touching the water should be fine. Don't have a bath towel you can stretch over?

[banditpowdercoat]

I have to disagree with you on the lighting period Dan not to sound negitive to your post , let's look at the sun when its out you are getting Omega A and B in which the corals take from. When its cloudy out you are still getting B rays, not the Alpha rays. SO in true terms turning the lights totally off you are depleting the corals of any Alpha or Beta rays. and then that is where the corals tissues are lacking the proper sun light. causing them to grow and convert sun light in to growing tissues.


I agree, cloudy still has some light. Was more of an example I guess. Main hting is I read alot on lights out before i tried it too, On RC, and a few other fis forums. Alot of people reccomend it and 2-3 days wont harm anything, was a common consensus between them all

[Skimmerking]

no worries my friend I remember about reading about that too. I thought that i had Dino's too one day it came and then it went within 3 days it was gone, I was lucky compared to some of the tank that i have seen. I here that a guy went 4 days with out light and put his lights on full day light time and had no problems. But at the end of the day not every tank is the same.

[Keri]

Well, I'm going to try 2-3 days and see if there is any improvement - if so I will continue. I could stretch a towel over, yeah....what if I just close the blinds (it's downstairs - very little light comes in that window anyhow and it's around the corner from it) and block off the sides of the tank? Moonlights too I guess?
It just makes me nervous putting anything over the tank.

Oh my poor clam will be so sad...Oh well, at least other ppl have gotten thru this!

[Skimmerking]

Keri why not try the blue light trick only at night, I read about it somewhere that if you use just the moonlights you are getting some lights but not enough to trigger the DINo's I can't remember where that was i read it I think it was in the bible of Reefing on RC.

[banditpowdercoat]

Ya Moonlights might be enough light to help corals but not feed Dino. I havn't got my moonlights done yet so cant say for sure

[Keri]

Keri why not try the blue light trick only at night, I read about it somewhere that if you use just the moonlights you are getting some lights but not enough to trigger the DINo's I can't remember where that was i read it I think it was in the bible of Reefing on RC.

Ya Moonlights might be enough light to help corals but not feed Dino. I havn't got my moonlights done yet so cant say for sure


I will try this! Thanks.

[Delphinus]

Corals will be fine for 2-3 days but a week is pushing it. But dinos will likely survive 2-3 days lights-out. Try it first maybe, but don't be surprised if they come back, if they do, prepare for a longer period.

[fkshiu]

Moonlights will do zilch for coral photosynthesis. They would only be useful to see what's happening in the tank.

[Keri]

As long as they won't Help the dinos I'd like to leave them on at least at night, I feel bad for the fish!

[Reefer Rob]

I don't think the lights out treatment for 2-3 days will do anything for Dinoflagellates. You're going to have to starve them out. Very aggressive GFO will help a lot, along with filter socks, rinsing food well, reduced feeding, etc, etc.

Along with Phosphates, GFO also removes Silicates, so I would change it weekly for a month and see what happens. Have you checked your source water for Silicates?

BTW Dinoflagellates will have a whip tail under the microscope.

Rob

[Keri]

I don't think the lights out treatment for 2-3 days will do anything for Dinoflagellates. You're going to have to starve them out. Very aggressive GFO will help a lot, along with filter socks, rinsing food well, reduced feeding, etc, etc.

Sorry, what's GFO?

Along with Phosphates, GFO also removes Silicates, so I would change it weekly for a month and see what happens. Have you checked your source water for Silicates?

The silicates test was negative. I have live rock and live sand (aragonite, caribsea) in there. What would other sources be? I use RO/DI water.

BTW Dinoflagellates will have a whip tail under the microscope.

Rob

Thank-you! I'll get drew to bring me a sample today and I will try to post pictures from under the scope.

[fkshiu]

GFO is granualar ferric oxide - used to control phosphates usually in a phosphate reactor. Sold under brandnames such as Phosban or Rowaphos or it can be purchased in bulk.

[Reefer Rob]

Test your RO/DI water for silicates as well. Apparently the DI resin is not the best for removing silicates.

IMO it's more of a phosphate issue anyway. Your tests won't show any phosphate (or silicate) because it's bound up in the Dynos (or algae, cyano etc.) The trick is to have something to absorb the phosphate as whatever your battling dies off.

A 2 to 3 day blackout will definitely help but it won't do the job on it's own. You need to get the chemicals out of the water. If you don't the dynos will just use them to start all over again.

[Keri]

It makes sense that the readings are 0 if they are all bound up....hmmm...well, I turned the light on *briefly* just to check out the situation and it looks like the stuff is dying, just bits of "dirty crud" floating around in the corners, kinda dead looking. My xenias were like 'LIGHT! Oh BLESSED LIGHT!" and started to unfurl right away so I shut the light off right away again, I'll give it another day, it's definately helping short term. As for the rowaphos.... I'm on the coast and won't get to Vancouver to purchase any for maybe a week :( BUT.... I do have a sea-chem product called PhosGuard that i can put in the HOB filter i use to run carbon, is that better than nothing? (I had bought it last time I was in town to buy the phosphate test but didn't end up using it because of the 0 reading.

Anyhow, i had drew deliver me some "primo scum" from the tank, bits of the brown snot itself and I checked them out under the scope (40 - 1000 power) and the primary "creatures" seem to be these browninsh ovals that look suspiciously like dinoflagellates... *sad face* and long chains of...cyano? algae? Lots of other cool worms and swimmers too.
ANY AND ALL COMMENTS/SUGGESTIONS ARE GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum1.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum10.jpg
I think these are bad...

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum11.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum12.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum2.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum3.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum4.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum5.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum6.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum7.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum8.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/Keri1980/scum9.jpg

[fkshiu]

Seachem phosguard is very effective at removing phosphate. The problem is that it is aluminium-based (as opposed to iron-based like GFO) and there are reports of corals reacting adversely to it. You can mail-order GFO in bulk from several sources including one of the site sponsors, bulkreefsupply.com.

[Reefer Rob]

I can't find any pictures on the web of the Dinoflagellates that plague aquariums, but I don't see anything that looks like flagella on those cells. Could it be an algae?

Cool pictures!

[Keri]

Seachem phosguard is very effective at removing phosphate. The problem is that it is aluminium-based (as opposed to iron-based like GFO) and there are reports of corals reacting adversely to it. You can mail-order GFO in bulk from several sources including one of the site sponsors, bulkreefsupply.com.


Hmmm... well, Poop!
Ok, maybe I'll order it, tho if I were to go in friday it would probably get here sooner... is it all corals? i have mostly SPS and softies, only one LPS (hammer) I'll look into it. I should have bought the rowaphos when i was in town last! I had it in my hand!! But i grabbed the phosGuard because it came in little convenient ready-to-go bags and I was in a rush.... lol oh well.


I can't find any pictures on the web of the Dinoflagellates that plague aquariums, but I don't see anything that looks like flagella on those cells. Could it be an algae?

Cool pictures!

I know that I didn't see any flagella either but due to the depth of field once i got it up to 10x100 it was very hard to make ANYthing out in detail. i should have stained a sample, when looking at other samples that's the only time I can photograph flagella. Maybe I'll try a stained slide tomorrow.


On a side note, I've gotten a tentative ID of Prorocentrum lima here is a picture from the web:
http://www.ambra.unibo.it/workO/pb/pb-154-bimg-lima.jpg
I'm not seeing such a clearly defined central organ in my pics ut it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that they were at least in the same family.
I don't see any flagellum on these either. Perhaps they are very tiny? or the name is misleading?

[reptile guy]

I had it once and turned out the lights for a week plus stopped feeding and used phosphate drops to eliminate whatever phosphate was in the tanks and it disappeared and hasn't been back since. I initially tried water changes and that just seemed to fuel it more and from what I've read water changes are a bad idea cause the dinos will feed on the new trace elements in the salt. I basically starved it off from all the major areas it thrives light, phosphates and lack of trace elements and worked quite well for me.

[reptile guy]

I've also heard it can be seasonal similar to a red tide kind of thing and usually comes about in the spring but not sure how true that is. Mines started in spring and would be curious to know when everyone elses started

[whosinpower]

Hey - tagging along because I seem to have the very same problem!

Just to get the treatment correct.......
1. syphon as much out as possible with a water change.
2.lights out for 3-4 days?
3. slowly reaquaint tank with lighting
4. does a person do another big water change after lights out?????
5. GFO of some sort - assuming using a phosban reactor is much better than a bag - how often would you change out the media?????
6. run carbon - dino's release toxins?????? makes snails unhappy - I know mine are not in good shape - how often would you change out the media?????

I am asking if these steps are correct - so I can do this. Tried 3 days without lights, but did not wrap the tank - so there was ambient light - did not help much - maybe a little. - going to try it again with more aggressive use of phosban and carbon.

[Reefer Rob]

This is bugging me now, I can't seem to find where I read that the aquarium pest variety have a whip-like tail that they use to propel themselves through the water during the dark hours.

In my searching I did come across this (http://web.archive.org/web/19990830191218/www.animalnetwork.com/fish/aqfm/1998/nov/wb/default.asp) article by Ron Shimek

From it:
"The Sarcomastigophora is a large group comprised of organisms that move either by flagella or pseudopodia, or both. One of the interesting properties of flagella is that the long process or “hair” that is the visible essence of this structure (there are other internal, typically invisible, subcellular structures connected to the hair) may be withdrawn into the body of the organism. Thus, the organism may have a flagellum at one moment and lack one at some other time."

From what I gather, there are a lot of organisms that produce the "bubbly brown snot" or "cyano with bubbles" type of crud. Eradication procedure would be the same for all of them IMO

[Keri]

Well, so far so good kids, couple'a losses (noticed an empty cerithsnail shell, my yellow wrasse is MIA andI think my bird's nest is on it's way out) and the 'nem is stressed - it's split in two, but the tank looks WAY better for now....now to deal with the issue of what's causing it....


I won't be able to make it over to Vancouver this week so I'm still on the fence about throwing the seachem phosguard in there (risking the corals) or just mail-order something in *shrug* I was really hoping to get to town tomorrow but it's not going to work out, shoulda just ordered when it first started!!

Maybe I'll try to take a picture of it tomorrow.

As to the tagger-alonger(whoisinpower): how's it going with your tank? :)
Reefer Rob: I know, I know! I keep lookin' for tails....the latin's tellin' me there ought'a be ;)

[reef bound]

I'll be another to tag along as I'm battling the same thing with my 34G Red Sea Max. I thought it was just another algae phase in my tank seeing as it is only just over 2 1/2 months old. But helpful people (thanks colin) pointed out that it could be the dreaded dinos, and with further research, sure enough.....
We've done a 3 day black-out, and while the tank looked great yesterday, today I'm noticing some of that tell-tale brown stuff starting to return on the sand and floating around through the water.
We're running rowa-phos, and are doing everything suggested by the research findings, (thanks for everyone's experiences), and we've pretty much concluded that the skimmer from the red sea isn't doing it's job. So, we've got the tunze nano on order, should be here in a couple days, and I guess we just hold our breath and keep the lights out until it arrives. Only losses so far are about 7 or 8 snails and the jury is still out on my zoas.
Good luck to you Keri.

[Keri]

So far it's looking ok...*crosses fingers* Going to go to vancouver on thursday to p/u rowaphos and supplies.



Good luck to you too Reef :)

[whosinpower]

Keri - thanks for asking how my tank is doing. I did a 20 gallon water change last night. Ordered two phosban reactors - one for gfo, and one for carbon.
When they arrive, I am going to install them and run them for a bit and see if there is an improvement. Figured on running them for about a week, then doing another 20 gallon water change - and then lights out for 4 days, followed by another 20 gallon water change. (I have a 90 gallon tank)

My alk and cal levels were low as well - so have been dosing to get them up to where they should be. I also ordered kalk and once I get the alk and cal levels up, I will be using kalk with a top off system - so hopefully, with more stability in the tank and with the reactors, I will be able to get the tank back on track.

The other thing I have been thinking about is switching my t5 bulbs. They are about 8 months old - so perhaps a change in spectrum added to the issue - I am not sure though.

I lost most of my cerith snails. I will get more once this is more under control - there is no point in adding snails to a toxic tank. Fish are in good shape, and most corals look ok, but I think they must be under a bit of stress - they are not quite as colourful as before - a bit faded, but still inflated and big. I have mostly lps, a few zoos and ricordeas and one yellow leather.