Disgusting brown goo

[christyf5]

Hey guys,
So I have this algae problem that I'm sure some of you have heard about images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif
Hair algae mostly, but there is a newcomer on the scene. Disgusting brown goo I call it. Some classified it as a diatom and suggested I get new light bulbs (2x250W MH). I got them a week ago and while I wasn't expecting success overnight, I haven't experienced any success at all and the growth hasn't slowed even a little bit. I hardly feed the tank (although you'd never know it by the amount of hair algae all over the place) and the phosphates of course read zero as they are all tied up in the ferocious growth cycle of algae. I checked my top up water and replacement water and the fresh is 0 for phosphates and the replacement SW was marginal so I used a phosphate sponge on it to get it down to zero. So any ideas? Suggestions?? I am at my wits end here. So far I have lost one SPS, another one is half gone (a few polyps remain on my montipora) and my leather is the saddest looking creature I have ever seen. HELP!!

Here is a pic, you know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. This crap is all over some rocks (those that aren't covered in hair algae, and the sandbed. Its the sandbed that is the grossest tho). This algae clumps the sandbed into a hard mass and it has to be cleaned off in sheets.

Christy images/smiles/icon_sad.gif

http://www.members.shaw.ca/seamonkey68/twin_towers_with_goo.jpg

[StirCrazy]

That looks like the cyno outbreak that creaturs had a couple months ago, I am just going of course by what some one showed me and told me was cyno so I could be out to lunch if he was pulling my leg.

Steve

[One_Divided]

blehh.. that's some ugly algea! images/smiles/icon_eek.gif

It sounds like you are doing just about everything you can. Have you done lots of water changes? It would probably help us all get to the source of your problems if you could fill out the info in the tank specification forum.

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: One_Divided ]</p>

[Canadian]

If it's brown, "gooey", and has air bubbles trapped in it, then it's probably not diatoms or cyanobacteria; it's likely dinoflagellates. Of course this is based on your description, as I'm having a difficult time making an assessment based on the picture.

Based on the description of your setup in the Tank Specification Forum, I'd say your problems are arising from insufficient water circulation and an inadequate protein skimmer. Removing inorganic phosphates from the water column with a phosphate sponge isn't going to cut the mustard because most of the nutrients in your tank are bound to various substrates (including animal and plant tissue).

Assuming that this is a dinoflagellate outbreak here's what you need to do:

<ul type="square"> Get a better protein skimmer. Increase water circulation. Temporarily reduce the photoperiod. Syphon out the dinoflagellates religiously without blowing them all over the tank. Do frequent water changes.
[/list:u:3531e57500]

I've gotta head out right now, but when I get back I'll post a more specific reply.

[SuperFudge]

Christy,


What does your alk sit at right now? ,Marc.

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: Superfudge ]</p>

[Aquattro]

Christy, I'm with Andrew on this one. dinoflagellates is what it looks like. One thing that comes to mind is that you are using natural (pastuerized?) seawater....maybe try some fake stuff for a coupe of good water changes to see if it helps.

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

IMHO, the brown stuff with bubbles is more likely to be diatoms...just lots of diatoms. It really doesn't matter - the solution is the same. I had the same problem about 3 months ago. My source of the problem was silicates/phosphates from my top off water. So this is what I did:

1) stopped water changes.
2) stopped additives except for calcium/alk (i.e. my Calcium reactor)
3) make two tubs of (doesn't need to be fresh) saltwater. Take some of the rocks and scrub the algae off in the saltwater in tube 1. Rinse everything off in the saltwater in tube #2. You can do a couple of rocks at time. Put the rocks back in the tank.
4) top off water - this was my problem. Before I added top off water, I added 1/8 tbl of kalk per gallon and let it settle for 12 hours. This is small enough to cause some of the phosphates/heavy metals to precipitate and not enough to add too much calcium to my system. I would drip that clear kalk top off water back in to my tank. Don't drip the precipitate in the kalk solution.
5) alk was set very high (like 15 dKh)
6) Put some fresh carbon in the system every two weeks - since we are not doing water changes...this should help.
7) 30 Astrea snails. Any snails will do in this case. This helped clean up the small bits that I didn't get in #3 -- but they can't get throught the big slabs of algae (too thick).
8) algae on glass/pumps ? Remove and do not let it float and stay on the water. The fine algae is good for the corals (food), but the big chunks are not.
9) Remove all sponge/mechanical filters.
10) Add air stone to skimmer -- this helps the skimmer with the lowest cost. IMHO, this is optional, but it helps in severe cases.

You will find that not doing water changes may affect the water quality (nitrates and such), so, you'll need to monitor the corals and fish for stress.

You will also find that you may be repeating step #3 for a couple of times -- each time you wash the stuff off...the slower it should re-grow. Eventually, the snails should be able to grasp on to what is left and finish it for good.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]</p>

[Canadian]

Here's a picture of dinoflagellates (I seriously doubt what you have is diatoms):

http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/s/h/shawnjim/65gallon/slime.JPG

As per my original post, and in agreement with Ron Shimek, physically remove the dinoflagellates, increase nutrient removal (better protein skimmer), and enusure that your source water is not problematic. In addition, along the same lines that Marc was apparently thinking; ensure your alkalinity is closer to the higher end of the scale (along the lines of 4 meq/L or so).

Assuming your water source is "clean," then syphon out the dinoflagellates and you're going to need to do a small water change every time you do so to account for the water you removed from the system.

[DJ88]

Christy,

I was one who told you to change your lighting. Sorry. Wish it had helped. Now that I see a pic I'd go with Dino's as well.

Here is what I will suggest.

Boost the alk if you can.
Skimming is important. big time.
RO/DI.
Removal by hand. Water changes.
Circulation. Get some more powerheads in there. Two hagen 302's isn't enough. Increase circ somehow.

Diatoms don't form mats like you are showing there. So I wouldn't add more snails. You'd be at risk of losing them. Snails don't eat dino's. It can kill them tho.
Diatoms can get thick. but don't form that slime you have.

My biggest suggestions are two. Circulation and Skimming.

keep us posted

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Its hard to say if it is dino or diatoms. Both are slimy and both form jelly mats, but I through dinos where brown or red and diatoms were brown or gold. Really doesn't matter....

Christy, is there anything unusual that we should know about your tank ? Are your snails all dead ? Did something recently die in your tank ?

BTW...is that bubble algae or calerpa in the picture ?

- Victor.

[DJ88]

Christy,

I forgot to add this one for you as no one else has mentinned it.

Nutrient export. Are you running a fuge? or have any way to grow macro algae?? You have to outcompete the dino's for food.

HTH

[christyf5]

My this thread has been busy. I've been watching the hockey game. Way to go Canada!!!

OK so, answers to questions.

Yes its brown gooey and has lots of air bubbles in it. Its almost impossible to siphon as it has clumped the sandbed and in order to remove it the top of the sandbed has to be removed as well. The last time I did this approximately 3 lbs of sand was removed. I was not thrilled to say the least.

Better protein skimmer. Yes. I have a CPR Bak Pak II right now and just blew $250 on new bulbs. Unfortunately a better protein skimmer is not in the cards unless someone is willing to donate.

Water circulation. I don't have much luck with powerheads. I just bought one from J&L and half the parts are missing (as with the last two I bought from other places). They are shipping them to me and will hopefully be here sometime this week.

Alk, this is something that confuses me mightily. The test kit I have (FasTest) says its at 2.5 meq/L. What the heck does this mean? Is this good? Everyone seems to be reporting different numbers in degrees of hardness etc etc. My conversion table is screwy because 2.5 seems to be okay but then when I convert it it is too low for the degrees of hardness. As well I was using Kent ProBuffer and I swear the stuff was getting sucked up by something because I was having a hell of a time keeping the alkalinity up so I gave up, until I can figure out what the heck is going on.

Trying regular water. Well as I said before the bulbs wiped me out for cash and I have run out of salt. I think I'll try to bum some from work because its like $30 a bag here and quite frankly I refuse to pay that much unless I am totally desperate (which I am not right now).

Victor,
I did #1, #2, #3 repeatedly (what fun, scrubbing rocks for 2 hours every week), nobody in Nanaimo sells kalk so thats a no go. As it was I had to get the kent buffer in vancouver, #5 (well I already talked about that. I had it up to 12 at one point but the next day it was back at 8), #6 (carbon replaced every week), #7 (we'll call that escargot for the hermit crabs, I just bought 20 and they aren't even making a dent, 5 were snacks for hermits so far), #8 done every time I get really ****ed off (about every 2 weeks or so), #9 using the mechanical filter to run the carbon and phosphate sponge thru changed every couple of days. #10 verrry interesting. I am going out today to get and airstone.

Great call on the snails Darren. Another $30 in feed for my hermits. No wonder they are getting so big images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

No nothing has recently died in my tank. However I have noted that this problem coincided with the addition of a lawnmower blenny. Man those guys can really churn out the waste. There is plenty to eat believe me. So do you think that maybe this lawmnower blenny is just too much for my tank. He is constantly eating and quite frankly his waste is probably equivalent to 4 fish. Any thoughts??

No no refugium. Every time I try to get organized enough to get out there and try to get parts for one, something else comes up (in this case, lightbulbs). Any ideas for an ultra cheap refugium, I have a spare 20G and 5G (Probly too small). What other parts do I need?? I have a crapload of caulerpa growing in the main tank which I ripped out while doing my last cleaning frenzy (there is quite a bit left still growing).


Keep those thoughts coming I'll try to post more pics of any success, otherwise you may see my stuff in the buy/sell forum images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Thanks for all the ideas guys, keep em coming!!

Christy images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[pocilipora]

All I can say is do a large water change 50-60%, then folow up this with a weekly water change of 25% until the problem is gone.

[DJ88]

Christy,

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quoteAlk, this is something that confuses me mightily. The test kit I have (FasTest) says its at 2.5 meq/L. What the heck does this mean? Is this good? Everyone seems to be reporting different numbers in degrees of hardness etc etc. My conversion table is screwy because 2.5 seems to be okay but then when I convert it it is too low for the degrees of hardness.

Here are two links you may want to read if you haven't already. The first is an explanation of what Alk is. I am sure you know, but wanted to pass it on. It gets a bit much for most but you should be ok. With the biology n stuff.. images/smiles/icon_wink.gif The second is a great conversion table. I keep mine at 12 dkh

Alkalinity Reefs.org library (http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/d_warren_090797.html)

Alk conversion table (http://www.ozreef.org/reference/alkalinity_conversion.html)

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quoteAs well I was using Kent ProBuffer and I swear the stuff was getting sucked up by something because I was having a hell of a time keeping the alkalinity up so I gave up, until I can figure out what the heck is going on.

Ok it sounds like you are only measuring alk. Am I right? You will need to watch Alk, pH and Ca together. These three will interact together constantly. One goes high one will drop. All kids of wahcky stuff. Once you have all three stable you may see a fix to your problem. I am not saying this will be a fix. but try it. I am running 8.2-8.3 for pH, 12 for dKh and 450 for Ca. All measured on salifert kits and a pH moonitor. Others will get different numbers. But usually close to that.

If you are having a hard time keeping Alk up you may be having other problems you can't see. What do you do towards Ca? and keeping it up? This may be a part of the problem.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quoteTrying regular water

Tap water???

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote#10 verrry interesting. I am going out today to get and airstone

Make sure it outs out fine fine bubbles. ie limewood airstone.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>He is constantly eating and quite frankly his waste is probably equivalent to 4 fish. Any thoughts??
<hr></blockquote>

Could be.. how many fish ya have in there now? If he is making enough for four fish and is new he may have put the tank jsut over the edge for wastes. And it can't keep up.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quoteNo no refugium. Every time I try to get organized enough to get out there and try to get parts for one, something else comes up (in this case, lightbulbs). Any ideas for an ultra cheap refugium, I have a spare 20G and 5G (Probly too small). What other parts do I need?

Take the 20 gallon. Go to HD and buy a small cheap ballast/lamp kit. GE Ultra daylights work fine for lamps. Get the tank drilled with one hole for a drain on the side. Mount it higher than your tank so gravity send the H2O back into the tank. Use a MaxiJet1200 for the feed line up to it. Make it so it only has to go a few inches and you get max pressure

And finally Get salt ASAP and do changes. regular ones. With RO/DI if you can.
Hope you got something out of that.

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: DJ88 ]</p>

[christyf5]

Thanks Darren,
Regular water in my mind is fresh RO/DI sorry for the confusion. I know tap water is bad bad bad!! images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Yes I am only measuring alk. I never even thought to measure the Ca and pH. I have Kent liquid calcium that I add every once in awhile. My Ca usually stays at about 420 or so.

I found a limewood airstone that came with my crapulent Lee's Protein Skimmer. That sucker lasted about 3 days before I threw it in a drawer where it belongs.

Right now I have 2 firefish gobies (thinkin about getting rid of them since one hides and the other one has a $hit eating grin on its face all the time after chasing the other one around the tank.) clown goby, lawnmower and an ailing anthias (cloudy eye, treating with Maracyn2).

As for the refugium. Good input. I can't get the fuge higher than the tank. Guess I'll have to work on that one.

Christy images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Canadian]

It all comes down to a proper balance of nutrients within the system.

If your LDSB wasn't seeded properly or isn't live enough, that's going to cause continuous problems.

Unfortunately, your skimmer is apparently inadequate for your current bioload. This is not to say you have too many fish, rather your nutrient export is insufficient for your intended purposes.
You can alleviate some of the inefficiency of your skimmer by also ensuring that you harvest macro algae, but the bottom line is that you need to increase your nutrient export one way or another while also addressing the culprit that is responsible for your elevated nutrient levels.

Your alk should ideally be around 3.5-4.5 meq/L. This is higher than natural seawater but raising your alk from your current 2.5 meq/L is going to make a significant difference.

It's kinda like losing weight. It's not as complicated as people make it seem. One is a case of ensuring that energy in is less than energy out (when losing weight), and the other is a case of ensuring that nutrients in are less than nutrients out.

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: Canadian ]</p>

[pocilipora]

Do a large water change!!!!!!!

[Aquattro]

Christy, if you're in Vic during the next week, I can give you some salt. If you haven't got any by next week-end, I'm probably going to Lantzville and can bring some with me.

[Reefmaster]

hi christy
just a thought, if you want a refugium/sump we have a 20g drilled that i would probably give away if it came down to it or trade for a fish magazine or something. it has been sitting on the shelf for too long and i basically just want to move it out.
i posted it on the board this am in case you aren't interested, but if you are, i have the bulkheads still (i think) and could help you set it up el cheapo -- that's how i try to do everything in this hobby. it keeps me out of bankruptcy and tanja is an accountant so imagine the challenges!! images/smiles/icon_redface.gif )
i can't visualize your setup but it would be best for this to be slightly higher than your tank (on a bookshelf of sorts maybe??) and then just use a ph as darren i think suggested. i don't think this will be an instant fix for the super goo you have but long term it will benefit your system in many ways. we have macro algae by the bucket you could seed it with.
just an idea. if it won't fit the plan no worries.
as for super goo destruction, i have found success with a combination of things, the best being high alk and high current. as a cost saving measure, i would avoid doing many 50-60% h20 changes cuz of the cost of salt but that's just my approach with our large volume.
anyway just a couple thoughts. shane