Starting a 20gal

[skabooya]

I keep going back and forth on starting up a saltwater tank. Ive been researching and doing all that fun stuff and deliberating between discus and marine for over 2 years now. Im finally gonna take the plunge and do salt. I am tearing down my 20gal freshwater tank. Still need to get rid of the plants in there. I have 3 tanks in my home all of which are freshwater planted. I also have one in my science classroom. I cant start this tank until after school is over. There is still 2 weeks left then on the 10th im presenting the science awards and then i will be supervising the provincial exams and then on the 26th i will be attending the grad ceremony. I am so proud of my grade 12's. :)
Anyway, i am terrified of starting even though i have done my research i feel like im going to do something terribly wrong. Im going to spend all this money and everything is going to die or im going to get apista or something nasty.
I am going to go super slow because i have time and not a lot of money lol ;P
Most of what i am going to buy will be from this forum and from other forums... or donations if anyone wants to help a poor teacher out.
So these are my plans so far.
I have a 20gal almost ready to go.
I need some sand and some LR. Im thinking about getting dead rock and then seeding it with some small pieces of LR. Letting it go for a few months so the corraline goes everywhere and the 'good stuff' is all over the tank.
Im not sure what i am going to do for flow yet. I do have 2 AC's i can use although i really like the look of those korala's i dont know yet
Im looking at the new wave 2x24 T5 fixture from ocean aquatics. Is this a good fixture for my 20H?
I am in love with zoas and shrooms. Those are the main corals i want. I may get one or two lps coral but really its not what i am in love with. I also want to get some feather dusters.
Im not sure what i want for fishies. I love inverts like little hermies and snails. I would love to get a crab as well but ive read mixed reviews about them.
My fav fav fav fish is a coral beauty but i know i cant have that in a 20 gal. Im looking at a yasha/pistol combo Or one or two active fish. I have no idea what yet. clowns are cool but soooo common. yellow tail blue damsels are neat too but meh. firefish hide a lot... i still need to think on this as you can tell.

Of course i will need to get salt, and a hydromoter, food (not sure what kind) but yea as yo u can tell im not in a huge rush to get this up and running. It will be started this summer and it will sit for a few months before i buy anymore for the tank. mostly because i dont make any money during summer

Im freaked out about starting, someone please hold my hand through this. Am i planning right? what am i missing. Please help.
Again i would like to know about the new wave T5 lighting because i would like to purchase it soon.
Thanks in advance.

[skabooya]

Ive been doing more research on PC's and they are not very energy efficient compared to T5's. I would like to go for 4x24 T5's.
I would like to pick up the lights pretty soon. Is this a good fixture? http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=sl-t5nw2404

[BigA]

Seems ok. Somethings I would pay attention to on that unit....

1) It says that bulbs not included. Expect to pay another $100 for 4 bulbs

2) It says it must be hung from the ceiling. If it was me who was buying, that is not very practical. Not that I move my tanks around often, but I'm not big on hanging things from the ceiling.

Other than that, I would say it looks good.

[gqlmao]

For the price thats a great fixture! besides having bulbs it will end up costing around 240. I've had it under a 24 inch deep tank and it did fine but thats just my opinion. for a 20 gallon that should be plenty sps, clams. But another point is that the fixture doesnt have a splash guard which protects the bulbs and the reflectors however for that price you can expect a little less than perfect. Also it doesnt have a power switch that allows certain bulbs to turn on, therefore leaving you the only option to turn all 4 bulbs on at once when you plug it in. One last thing is that the ballast is a workhorse ballast, these are cheaper ballasts and definitely weaker than icecap ones for example which are said to overdrive t-5 bulbs.

Hope this helps!


Stanley,

[gqlmao]

Hey heres an image of just the t-5s on my cube, my other light isn't on, just to give you an image of the intensity of the light. The tanks 30x30x24.

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm259/gqlmao/PDR_0349.jpg


Stanley,

[Midknight]

Nice looking tank, but you may want to get someone that mixes your sand up a bit. :wink:

[gqlmao]

ahaha Thats a deceptive picture lol. Its actually barebottom :P Heres a better pic when its clean and with my sets of light on! My mh and t-5s mix quite well together Although I think mh + t-5 on a 20 gal a little over kill :)

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm259/gqlmao/PDR_0352.jpg

[skabooya]

so then would it be better to go with 2x24 T5 for my tank? I dont want to keep sps or clams but i want nice bright corals. I want my zoas and shrooms to pop and i may want to keep some lps like a brain but really im more interested in my softies.
Ive been recommended PC's but ive read they are not cost efficient, however they are in my price range. Im gonna keep looking around but i would like your opinions about what you think would be the best lighting for my situation. I really dont want MH. just for an FYI.

Oh and thanks for all the responses it really helped me out quite a bit.
PS that is a good looking tank :)

[gqlmao]

I guess 2 t-5 would work depending on how wide the tank will be, pretty sure its 12 inches if standard correct me if im wrong? the fixture itself is around 10 inches wide. If you want bright coloured zoas and lps and softies I'm sure you can get away from 2 t-5s however you wouldnt get much of a choice with spectrum because of the minimiumness of bulbs. Just make sure they are HO and not regular t-5s. I think 4 would be even better for corals however 2 will definitely be sufficient as long as they got individual reflectors. Stay away from PCs IMO they are expensive to replace bulbs. Also they produce a lot of heat and definitely lacks in bulb selection and life compared to t-5s. Thanks


Stanley,

[skabooya]

Yea thats what ive been reading about PC's. Theyre not very energy efficient either. Im gonna need to look around for a 2-24w T5 with individual reflectors then. Anyone else with opinions on 2x24 being okay for a 20 gal High. and yes its just the standard 20 gal L24xW12xH16.5.

[hockey nut]

Welcome to Canreef.

Seems to me you've done your homework ;) Keep up the good work. Both T5 and PC will give you the light you need for zoas and mushrooms, ( which happen to be my favorite as well ). On the buy/sell forum you can post "looking for" t5 or pc light source for your 20gal etc and see what kind of response you get. You never know what may fall into your lap.

Live rock imo is almost the coolest thing in your tank. If you buy from a store and let it cure in your tank, you will see all kinds of neet stuff growing and crawling off it. First day there won't be much but by day 30 there is usually some pretty cool things happening. Small snails, little feather dusters, etc etc. Before and after pics are great for that.

Don't be freaked out about starting the tank. There is lots of help hear on Canreef and as a teacher you should know we learn from our mistakes. LOL.... Aptasia and flat worms etc happen in this hobby but there are ways to take care of it all. So don't worry too much about what might happen with regards to that stuff. Take your time and ask lots of questions. Hey wait a sec, that's what your doing. :/ Make a list of what you need / want and start from there and have fun.

I'd say your on the right track.

Cheers
:)

[skabooya]

Right so i clicked on the link to Big Als online from this site and was checking out the Nova extreme HO fixtures. I got all excited because of the sale and I saw one i would have totally ordered asap because it was $161 or something like that. Regular price 179 or something along those lines. Anyway then i went to talk to my hubby and he said i could get it then i went back on the computer and typed in bigalsonline.ca and the same fixture showed up as $229.99. I was like wtf? then i checked out the link from this forum again and discoverd that it was to the american site and not the canadian one.
I was excited for nothing. And, even with the regular price why is it still cheaper in the USA than it is here in Canada? I dont get it. Booo.
Anyone know where i can get a T5 striplight in Canada for $200 or less?

[skabooya]

Well i just found it :) went to ocean aquatics and found the nova extreme 4x24w HO T5 with taxes and everything it will come out to $209.43
Comes with bulbs and 2 moonlights, etc.
Aparently this fixture is the same as having 130watt PC over a 20gal but with the MH shimmer. So even though it does not have individual reflectors that makes me happy.
I think this is what i will go for. Im gonna talk to my hubby again when he gets home.

Let me know what you think about this fixture. I am both excited i found something and excited at the prospect of putting in an order, but i am also freaked out because of the negative stuff ive read about it and just starting saltwater all together. *bites nails*

[skabooya]

So shopping list would be:
nova extreme 2x24 24" T5 HO fixture
25lbs LR (Fiji, Tonga, Jakarta, Vantau ? HELP i have no idea)
15lbs sand (Caribsea Aragamax Suger sand for a shallow sandbed)
2 Koralia 1's
1 hydrometer (i know refractometer is better but i cant afford one right now)
1 bucket of Instant ocean salt
I have a few heaters from previous fw setups so i will use one of them.
I will also invest in a glass lid to cut down on evaporation, stabalize temps, keep stuff from jumping out, keeping salt creep/spray to a minimum, and from stuff getting into the tank.


2 gal water change weekly or maybe biweekly? because i plan on having a low bioload (mostly inverts and 1 or 2 fish max)
Should i think about getting an HOB fuge with a skimmer attachment? Or maybe just a cheap skimmer.

Let me know how this sounds and if i am forgetting anything or if i should change anything.

Thank you in advance.

[Kronk]

-I would get a single 150w MH there are some decent priced ones online sunpod?
-Fiji is going to be the best in terms of porosity
--2 koralia 1's would be 800gph of flow might want to look into the koralia nanos at -240gph
-hydrometer works fine for me
-i would go with better salt, kent or even tropic marin with a 20g it will last a long time
-reusing heater is a good idea
-the glass lid i would recommend against, it will rise your temperature evaporation is really the only way the water can cool down
-I do a weekly 3 gallon water change in my 20g
definatly get a skimmer, seriously
i know it complicates things but i would look at setting it up with a 10g sump you wont regret it just google it and you will see its not that much more work to setup and it will make things a lot easier in the long run

Best of Luck

[skabooya]

Kronk: Thank you for your very informative post. It really helped me out.

In response, I cant afford MH. And i was going for PC's until i found out that t5 is more energy efficient, runs cooler, has better light output, and the colour just looks awsome.
So im going for 4x24 T5 HO nova extreme fixture. I will only have softies like zoas and shrooms and maybe a couple lps but really im not a fan of them.

I did more reading about the koralia's and i agree 2 k1's would be too much flow so now im looking at just getting 1 k1 and placing it at the back of the tank so if there are any dead spots it will be at the front of the tank where i can clean any build up easier. And having 1 less thing in the tank will help it to look a bit cleaner.

As for salt i have no selection unless i order online in which case then i am also paying double. We have instant ocean here and so thats why im going for that. I figure i can get a bag instead of a bucket since salt lasts a while and a bag is easier to hide than a big 160gal bucket.

As for a skimmer i was looking at the rio nano skimmer for $30. Ive read for a cheap skimmer it works pretty good after it breaks in. For larger tanks or for tanks that have more lps or sps a better skimmer is needed but if you have a low bioload with mainly softies and just a couple of fish and your tank is 20gal or under than a rio is pretty good. A remora is better but again thats too rich for my blood at this time.

I wouldnt mind setting up a sump but i have no room for it. This tank will be going into my office on my bookself. I have tons and tons of books from teaching and as a teacher i am always adding more.

3 gals sounds good. I was thinking of doing 2 gals a week for starters until i get more stuff in the tank then i would move up to 3 gals a week. Although i see a lot of people doing 2 or 3 gals every other week.

and yes im getting 25lbs of fiji LR and 20lbs of caribsea live sand. Its what most people seem to be using.

Im going to have baking soda on hand for each water change because our tap water here is perfect for saltwater or any tank. And i mean its awsome water. But we have soft water with either a neutral PH or a ph of 6 depending on the season. So i will need the baking soda to raise alk so the ph is right on.

[skabooya]

Alright new order form
2x24 T5 HO nova extreme
25lbs fiji live Rock
20lbs of caribsea live sand
Bag of instant ocean salt
1 hydrometer
1 Koralia 1
rio nano skimmer
no lid for clowns (yup decided on clowns) Will buy once cycle is well over and i dont mean a week.

Corals i def want are mainly blue/purple shrooms, and some red shrooms. Lots of zoas such as 'green eyed sally', 'man of steel', 'mean green', 'iceberg', 'devils armor', 'red delight', 'safecrackers', 'blue eyed girl', fire and ice, 'polar ice', 'true joker', 'whami'n watermelon', 'royal thunder', and i dunno but i love zoas.
I also like pulsing xeina and i saw some electric blue cloves that i MUST have.
I also love feather duster worms and macro algae.
Rics are also cool but the only ones that turn me on are blue or Pink Yumas.... and of course rainbow aussie acans but thats for another tank with more lighting... and when i win the lottery :p

[skabooya]

I am so confused. I just got a response on another reef forum and this person basically told me i need to rethink my entire plan.
Do i have to have a 4" deep sand bed?
Do i need to have 2 powerheads? I thought i K1 would be enough since flow is dispersed everywhere.
Is the rio that bad where i shouldnt bother at all? I thought something was better than nothing. I cant in any way afford a remora.
A bucket of salt will last me more than a year. Is this true?
Is instant ocean really that crappy? Its all my lfs supplies. Aparently it has low alk buffering capacity is that true. That worries me because i have very soft neutral to acidic water out of my tap. (The tap water he is amazing lots of people do salt where i live and use tap)

Please help me out. Im getting discouraged again.

[Canuckgod420]

Well I dont think you need to be confused.....up until this post all the advice given to you sounds pretty decent....you dont need a 4" sandbed, you dont need 2 powerheads(your not havind SPS), instant ocean is fine salt(used for years by thousands of reefers), and the skimmer should be fine(never used this particular unit though).
Listen...if you take things slowly and add you critters slowly you should have no problems(except the common problems all us reefers encounter, algae outbreaks, cyano, the crazy obsession to expand....lol).
I set up a 34 gallon cube tank for my wife about a year ago with 1 250watt MH and a strong return pump from the sump, a 3" sandbed and she has no other powerheads or even a skimmer. Mostly softies, 1 hammer lps, 5 fish, an anemone and a ton of zoos and mushrooms, no problems at all....in fact I have to trim the softies so often that I want to tear out the colonys and just replace with a frag....lol
I am also in the middle of setting up a 20 gallon for my daughter, just finished the stand and I'm on my way to get her some more live rock and sand(she already has a 10 gallon set up with some rock and sand) I got her a 4x24 watt T5 light so this should be able to grow anything she wants(also no skimmer on this tank). The only reason I have a skimmer on my main display is my bioload is rather large and I have an SPS dominated tank.
Hope some of this helps.

[Lance]

I am so confused. I just got a response on another reef forum and this person basically told me i need to rethink my entire plan.
Do i have to have a 4" deep sand bed?
Do i need to have 2 powerheads? I thought i K1 would be enough since flow is dispersed everywhere.
Is the rio that bad where i shouldnt bother at all? I thought something was better than nothing. I cant in any way afford a remora.
A bucket of salt will last me more than a year. Is this true?
Is instant ocean really that crappy? Its all my lfs supplies. Aparently it has low alk buffering capacity is that true. That worries me because i have very soft neutral to acidic water out of my tap. (The tap water he is amazing lots of people do salt where i live and use tap)

Please help me out. Im getting discouraged again.


Please don't get discouraged, you're doing fine. Some people on these forums think their way is the only way. Not true. No, you don't have to have a 4" sand bed. If you can only afford 1 Koralia 1, go with it. IO salt is not that bad. I too can only get it here locally and it's fine. Many reefers use it. If you are just going with softies and a small bio-load, you can get by without a skimmer for awhile, just do lots of water changes and you'll be OK. Shop the buy/sell forums for a good HOB skimmer as you say you can't have a sump.
You've already indicated you have been researching and that you intend on taking your time in setting up this tank. That's good, I'm sure you'll be fine, and good luck.

[Lance]

OOOPS! I must have been typing while you entered your post. Sorry CanuckGod, didn't mean to repeat you.:mrgreen:

[Lance]

Oh, one last thing, Skabooya get yourself some decent test kits. Very important.

[gqlmao]

By saying 4 inches he is thinking about growing more nitrifying bacteria and other goodies, I would say 4 inches is still too shallow 6-8 inches would be your best bet at dsb. However, You do not necessarily have to have sand bare bottom tanks are fine. The flow he might be quite right because a K1 isn't very strong, I'm running a K3 and its really weak in my opinion, 2 power heads might be a good choice. Its all good you can add more flow in the long run. The rio pump should be fine for you if its lightly stock, however I have no experience with them. Remora's are alright however I heard they aren't all that great either due to its weak pump. For the salt thats up to how much water changes you make. Lower buffering means that you would have to add supplements such as baking soda for example. I've used IO for 3 years with tap water and I got no problems but its Calgary here. Just get some buffering agents at your lfs they should be around 15 bucks and will last you for a long time to come.

Don't get discouraged cause people have to learn from experience and plus you haven't tried your set up yet. Don't let people tell you what is right and wrong cause they might think they know everything about reefing, the fact is that they do not. No one does.

[skabooya]

OMG thank you everyone. That makes me feel so much better. Thank you thank you thank you. That post totally threw me for a loop. Anyway i gtg and make dinner.
Again Thanks a bunch for calming me down :)

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Hey there--sounds like you've gotten some good advice!

Can I encourage you to try something like this (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~action~view~idProduct~JB9111~idCategor y~FILTFIMHCO~category~Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies-Lighting-Fixtures-Metal_Halide-Clamp_On~vendor~.html) for your lighting instead of the Nova fixture? You'll get the true shimmer lines, it won't heat your tank too much, it'll definitely be enough for the shrooms and zoas...etc. Much neater and better quality, in my opinion.

Good luck!

[skabooya]

ooo that is nice Der_Iron_Chef.
And its a whole $6 cheaper and that includes shipping. I dunno about duty though yikes.
It comes with a bulb but it doesnt say anything about a ballasat. Does it include one?
How much do the bulbs cost? and where is a local supplier for those particular bulbs?

One of the reviews on that site said that it didnt last long.
And the only other thing im worried about is that its 70watts of light. The nova has 96 and the coralife pc fixture has 130. Wont the 70watts of light wash out the colours of the corals? I want them to pop. If i get blue corals i want them to stay blue, likewise for my other future corals.
But im gonna do more research on this fixture to see what others say about it.
Thank you for that link the light does interest me.... better quality for cheaper hmmmm.

[skabooya]

i just did a quick look at the JBJ viper. It does seem pretty cool but a lot of people dont like it. Aparently the reflector is bad (hammered), some say the light is yellow (but i wouldnt know so whatever), most people have this fixture over 12gal tanks. 24gal tanks have the 150 which makes me think that 70 is not enough light.
Is the ballaset a magnetic or electric. I want a lighting fixture to be as efficient as possible (ie cheap to run).
I wouldnt mind ordering a bunch of stuff from marine depot (its cheaper than other sites, gotta shop around :) )but because its based in the states would i end up paying duty? Are those the actual prices? I wonder what the prices would be in Canadian dollars.
MH is gonna run HOT! which im not fond of. And topoff is gonna be a pain in the rear. Aparently the clamp is a pain to use as well on these. hmmmm. Now im confused again LOL but not discouraged :)

[skabooya]

ok i got some more comments and i did more research. There is actually a thread going on right now about an ap24 and using either the 70 or 150 viper. So far everyone is saying 150 because of the depth of the tank.

So i guess im sticking with the nova extreme 4x24 T5 HO fixture

[skabooya]

I have to get a new tank. *sigh*
I took a close look at my 20 and noticed that there is condensation building up under the silicone. I stuck my hand in to feel the silicone and yea its bad. Its comming up in some parts. So i spoke to my hubby and he said why spend all that money on a saltwater tank for the tank to burst a little while later. He told me to just get a new tank.
Now my dilemma what should i go with. I would like to go bigger obdviously but the bigger the tank the more the expense. I want to keep it in the same price range which is under $600 for the setup.
I was thinking maybe a 20 long but where can you pick one of those up? can you get them online? are they that much more expensive?

The only issue with the 20L would be that finding a 30" light would be a pain but i can still use the 24" which is what most people use but they end up having glass on the edges of the tank for a light balance. The other problem is that the edges of the tank wont get much for light.

Should i just stick with a 20gal H ? all i need is the glass box

[skabooya]

ya know the 30gal tank is looking better and better. Its just as high as a 20 but its wider and longer. I would need to get 36" lights. And again the Nova extreme 4x39 T5 HO 36" fixture with moonlights is lookin pretty good again. But its an extra $100, i will need to get a K2 instead of the K1. Thats an extra $10, 35lbs of LR instead of 25. Thats a price increase of about $80 not including the shipping.

With the same bioload however i will have more stable params. Should work be crazy i dont need to freak out should i forget to do a WC one week. Every other week might be okay. Will need to research this more.

I am reading more about having a group of cleaner shrimp in a tank. They breed and voila free coral food. It would be nice if some survived though.

With a larger surface area evaporation will be a bigger concern. So now i am also looking at a refractometer $60 and a glass top. Im not worried about temp because the tank will be in my office which is cooler anyway except in the summer. I can always take the lid off for the summer anyway.

Because of this huge increase in $ i will be set back in bringing this simple tank into fruition. After talking with my hubby it looks like we will be waiting until the end of summer to see what kind of $ we have left and to see if i even have a job when september comes.
Im a teacher and my contract was for this semester only. If another job posting comes up i will apply for that along with many other teachers. Then they will choose the best for that position. I guess its just more planning and shopping around and decision making until summer is over. *sigh*

[Boomboy]

well you always end up spending more when you dont plan, so its good that you are, i would try to wait for a good deal where you are, and get it, you save hundreds of dollars when the little things come with it, like heater, and if it comes with stuff you dont want sell it for a little money, and get what you want, better to plan every detail then spend more money down the road, and defitnally go with the 30G i would have like it better to but i have my 20H for now, soon to be 60 :mrgreen: .

[skabooya]

AHHHHH GUYS/GALS!!!! I NEED HALP!!!

i was reading the local paper today and guess what i saw..... 40gal and 75gal saltwater tank for sale includes everything but the water and fish. 400obo

So in a frenzy i give the guy a call. no one home so i left a message. I want to ask a few questions so help me out. Im more interested in the 40 because it would be less work.

1. is the 40 a sump for the 75?
2. Does it include a skimmer? What kind?
3.Does it include a hydrometer/refractometer?
4. Does it include salt? How much? What kind?
5. How many lbs of LR? What kind?
6. Apista? Mantis? Cyno? Hair algae? Any troubles with the LR over the past?
7. What kind of sand? How many lbs? How old is the sand bed?
8. Does this setup include coral? What kinds softy, lps, sps?
9.Lights: what kind? Age of bulbs? Wattage?
10. Powerheads: what kind how many?
11.Test kits included?
12. Age of setup?
13. Is the $400 for the two tanks or for each tank?
14. Are the tanks drilled?



Can anyone think of any other questions i could ask this person?? Please Help me!!!!

Thanks

[skabooya]

Wow well i just got off the phone with the seller. She knows next to nothing about saltwater. I dont claim to know a lot but WOW!
She couldnt answer very many of my questions at all.
The ad is for both the 75 and the 40gal but the 75 leaks and needs to be re sealed. the 40 didnt leak when she unplugged it but its OLD.
The LR is dead, the Sand is dead and has been for a year.
The tanks have been sitting in a corner as a dry display for a while now. BUT everytime she goes down to kelowna she buys new stuff for the tanks.

She has a seaclone 100 HOB skimmer still in the box
a "new" 5 year old pump (her words not mine)
Hydromoter (although i had to describe to her what that was)
Salt (no idea what kind but she said the good stuff)
She said she had coral (fake/dead)
Test kit... Whats a test kit?
Lights: No idea there are lots. Some are crappy and some she just bought. Aparently she bought whatever the lfs told her to buy.
She says there is a ton more stuff and she wants it all gone for $400 obo

hmmmm. Im gonna go over there later today and take a look although i think the tanks are a write off.

So now looking at all of that i will still need to buy
a new tank
possibly new lights
LR but how much? the rest of the stuff is dead so maybe i can seed it?
possibly new power heads
Maybe test kit (Even if she does have it, it will be old and innacurate)
Maybe a heater (depends on what she has)

Sheesh i dont know if this is worth it. $400 sounds like a lot now for two crappy tanks and a whole bunch of old stuff, Dead sand and LR.

[skabooya]

i decided to go with my gut and not take this deal. I will continue to plan as i was before.

[Boomboy]

i think that was a good call, but keep your eye out for good deals, good luck.

[JDigital]

ahaha Thats a deceptive picture lol. Its actually barebottom :P Heres a better pic when its clean and with my sets of light on! My mh and t-5s mix quite well together Although I think mh + t-5 on a 20 gal a little over kill :)

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm259/gqlmao/PDR_0352.jpg

How small are those fish if thats a 20G??? hahaa..

[skabooya]

Thats not a 20gal. gqlmao was just giving me an example of the light intensity.