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naesco
03-15-2003, 05:01 PM
J&L Aquatics has powder blue tangs on sale with the caption

"These will go fast"

Sadly; :cry: They are right.

AJ_77
03-15-2003, 05:44 PM
It's odd to see them with the banner, "SALE!"

:? Maybe they're on special because they don't last as long as other fish?

naesco
03-15-2003, 05:57 PM
Sadly, you got that right.

Bob I
03-15-2003, 06:56 PM
J&L Aquatics has powder blue tangs on sale with the caption

"These will go fast"

Sadly; :cry: They are right.

Maybe the sign meant that they will die fast. :?: :?:

naesco
03-15-2003, 07:41 PM
Sadly, I am sure you are correct.

AJ_77
03-15-2003, 08:39 PM
hey naesco, long time no see! where you been, man?

:wink:

BCOrchidGuy
03-15-2003, 09:49 PM
I don't buy fish that are that large, but I have heard they are really hard to keep. I'm kinda dissapointed at J & L for bringing them in... if they brought them in knowingly. If not.... I hope they reamed out the supplier.

Just going on what I have heard though, like I say, I've never bought fish 6 inches long.

Quinn
03-15-2003, 11:02 PM
aquarium allusions has a pile of them in quarantine right now. unfortunate, because so many people will jump on them. nicest tang by far i think. :? same as selling nudibranchs and gorgonians i guess.

naesco
03-15-2003, 11:53 PM
I don't buy fish that are that large, but I have heard they are really hard to keep. I'm kinda dissapointed at J & L for bringing them in... if they brought them in knowingly. If not.... I hope they reamed out the supplier.

Yeh next time we go in we should all remind them that if a reefer really needs one, they can order one for him.

Ordering a bunch of cheap powder blues, dumping them cheap on a bunch of unsuspecting newbies in not what we reefers expect from J&L :(

Hi ;AJ, you will see a lot of me soon :)

mikey_d18
03-16-2003, 01:46 AM
theres a really nice powder blue tang on sale at pauls...........looks extremely healthy and is eating everything

GregJ
03-16-2003, 02:19 AM
I just got back from J&L,, and do they ever have some nice fish right now! They have some 1.5" butterfly's and tangs that are so cute, and some little cute red scooter blennies. They all looked good except for the small powder blues, something didn't look right with them.

naesco
03-16-2003, 02:33 AM
Greg

Did they happen to mention why they are carrying them?
Was it a mistake or something?

EmilyB
03-16-2003, 02:57 AM
J&L seems to try and cater to the reefing public, from what I can gather. But I have only been there twice, and there were multiple powder blue tangs both times.

It's not something one should see - I agree. Most (but not all) of the ones I saw looked awful as well...

No, I never said anything....maybe I mumbled a bit....I see other things here locally, never tanks filled with powder blue tangs, at least the stores I frequent....but in the end, they could give a crapload what I say....I mean I have already stocked my tanks for the most part.

If we cut off every source we have, what is left? Nothing. So we educate the source, or shop where it feels better ????

I like J&L, they do not exhibit some of the high pressure tactics of some of the other MO - I know nothing of their management, or who controls what happens there.

However, I will send an email tonite to them, regarding my own personal feelings on the issue.

GregJ
03-16-2003, 03:16 AM
Naesco, I never even asked. It was pretty busy and the guy didn't seem to be in the best of moods :?. From what I saw , the bigger ones were some of the most beautiful I've seen, and the little ones(3-4") looked like they were on there deathbed, very pale blue and the yellow on the fins was bleached right out with somewhat tattered fins, and on some it was apparent that they were not eating(quit skinny). Oh and they had some purple fire gobies which I hadn't seen before, and wow they are nice,the fins were a little tattered, but other wise looked very healthy.

EmilyB
03-16-2003, 03:24 AM
It is my understanding that purple firefish have a horrible survival rate. :?

mikey_d18
03-16-2003, 03:28 AM
i had my purples for a long time, never had a prob, but i gave em up

EmilyB
03-16-2003, 03:35 AM
aquarium allusions has a pile of them in quarantine right now. unfortunate, because so many people will jump on them. nicest tang by far i think. :? same as selling nudibranchs and gorgonians i guess.



:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


Dez?

GregJ
03-16-2003, 03:42 AM
Oh, that's no good :( . I wonder why they brought so many in? I wanted to get one too

BCOrchidGuy
03-16-2003, 03:43 AM
Just for the record I didn't mean to insinuate that J & L did that on purpose, if it came across that way, I am sorry.

I am curious as to where they got them from though, we all know Blue Tangs are usually cyanide caught, having so many young ones not doing well, it seems that perhaps their supplier isn't telling them the whole truth.
That being said, I don't know much if anything about how the fish are brought in, NOR do I know for sure where those fish come from. I do know my LFS gets its shipments of fish the same days and about the same times as J & L, and if J & Ls stuff didn't come in neither did my LFS. My LFS however admits yes some of their fish are cyanide caught, they don't like it, but people want fish that they can afford. Lets face it, how many of us would pay $99 for a guaranteed NON cyanide caught fish when we can get the same fish with out knowing the real history for $49.... I don't know about you but, my pocket book would certainly over ride the moral dilema of purchasing fish that MAY have been cyanide caught.

I'd say, with out sticking my neck on the line that J & L is a reputable dealer... I am willing to give them the bennefit of the doubt and hope those fish were a surprise and not ordered at that size. Although I have been in there and seen HUGE angels that just arrived the day or so before, again, lets hope they were brought in on a special order...
I like J & L, I think they are above the board, I think though that they are trying to make a buck in a HIGHLY competitive market. We are lucky here from what I understand we pay about 1/4 to 1/2 what our neighbours to the south in Seattle pay for fish, so it is to our advantage to have the LFS trying to undercut each other for the time being. In a year, or more, lets hope that J & L can still afford to stay in the market... although I wouldn't pay double the money for a fish from J & L, I would pay a few bucks more for the peace of mind to know that they are a reputable, and environmentally aware company, that doesn't purposely bring in fish that are most likely destined to die slowly in some persons tank.

EmilyB
03-16-2003, 03:51 AM
Lets face it, how many of us would pay $99 for a guaranteed NON cyanide caught fish when we can get the same fish with out knowing the real history for $49.... I don't know about you but, my pocket book would certainly over ride the moral dilema of purchasing fish that MAY have been cyanide caught.



I wouldn't be in the hobby if I couldn't do that. These are live creatures, not disposable ones. :evil:

BCOrchidGuy
03-16-2003, 03:57 AM
Emily sadly I can't say I would do the same thing all the time. Perhaps I would, but honestly, I don't ask where the fish came from, I don't ask if they were caught with cyanide, I look at the fish, and have them held for a week... .and now they go into isolation for two weeks min. Oh and of course I don't look at my fish as being disposible, I don't purchase a fish if I don't want keep it for years. I don't believe in getting a fish now and buying a bigger tank for it when it out grows the one I have. I aim to create a comfortable habitat for them but one that is pleasing to me as well.

saltcreep
03-16-2003, 04:26 AM
Sad sad sad...is this what this is all about...where can I buy the cheapest fish. Sad sad sad!!!

Troy F
03-16-2003, 04:27 AM
It is my understanding that purple firefish have a horrible survival rate. :?

Hey Em, where'd you hear that? In my experience they're one of the hardiest fish out there. I'm considering purchasing one at some point, they're one of my favourite fish.

BCOrchidGuy
03-16-2003, 04:29 AM
I have to agree with Emily, thats what I have heard also, but, I've not tried to keep the purples, just the regulars, everyone told me they would fight, AFTER I got two of them, they didn't fight at all.

naesco
03-16-2003, 04:40 AM
BC Orchid
Cyanide kills most of the fish and those that do live cause death and disease in the tanks of the wholesaler, LFS and most importantly in our tanks.
But when they squirt the cyanide in the coral reef head it also kills all the coral, inverts and all critters living there.
It is simply not a dollar issue period.
The fact is that net caught fish because of their low DOA and their good health are cheaper for the wholesalers and LFS even though they cost pennies more for the wholesaler and LFS to buy.
All we reefers have to do is ask each time we consider buying a fish and the LFS will get the message.

LFS can get net caught fish from three wholesalers in Vancouver. There is no excuse.
What about saltwater connection? What are they selling? Anyone know?




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Troy F
03-16-2003, 04:44 AM
BCOD, you may've been lucky enough to have a male/female pair. It seems some have the luck but the majority of people don't. I've never heard that they don't do well, I know all about the fighting but not the other.

It saddens me every time I see a fish that has little chance of survival in captivity and saddens me every time I see a coral with little chance of survival. The one thing we can do as hobbyists, is to insist on captive bred species where ever possible, net caught fish and that impossible to keep species are left in the ocean.

Yes, we'll have to pay more. What's a clear conscience worth?

BCOrchidGuy
03-16-2003, 05:24 AM
I think it is difficult to tell, like I say, one place says we don't buy cyanide caught fish.. but they get their shipments on the same day and close to the same time as the other place... is that strange? As far as the fire fish, maybe I was lucky they were real show stoppers.

Quinn
03-16-2003, 05:31 AM
i am really getting myself in trouble. i have a feeling i'm going to have to go into hiding by the end of the week if i keep peeving people off on here. :?

but yes deb, des's store. the store had about seven or eight of them. but what store doesn't carry risky species. big al's has sea fans and wei's has moorish idols, what's to be done? at least AI quarantines.

i guess it's business... gotta make money somehow... about the only thing that can be done is an effort on the part of pet-keepers is to share information on which species do well in captivity and which don't.

naesco, as far as i know, jayson doesn't carry any fish. and haven't noticed any taboo corals...

smokinreefer
03-16-2003, 05:56 AM
BCOG,
regarding the firefish...
how long have you had them for?

BCOrchidGuy
03-16-2003, 06:30 AM
Couple months smokinreefer.. they never left each others side that I saw

smokinreefer
03-16-2003, 07:02 AM
cool.
most likely a pair.

now if you can only tell me if you notice any physical differences between the 2.

so i can get a pair as well. :D

saltcreep
03-16-2003, 06:52 PM
BCOG - Arrivals of flights from overseas is the reason that different LFS will get arrivals on the same day at the same time. There are limited flights from overseas. The shipments may not necessarily come from the same suppliers so there may be a difference in quality or cyanide vs net caught.

Naesco - The other factor to quality fish is handling. I hope our conversation the other day helped with this point. I firmly believe that the way the fish/coral are handled and shipped has a greater impact on the health of the animals after they are collected. The impact on the reef through cyanide use is a no-brainer.

robbyville
03-16-2003, 09:18 PM
Hello folks,

Not sure about the stocking of the tangs but I since the mgmt of J&L was brought up I thought that I would take the time for a quick post!

I don't work for them, I found them when I was researching LFS's prior tp my move from California back to Whistler.

In my experiences, they have been nothing short of great with both their advice, and pricing. As mentioned in another post, no hard sell tactics and I've even been told by them a few times "Wait until you're better prepared and more experienced". I deal mostly with Allan and Jeff when I go down on weekends and truly believe in their professionalism.

The only reason I post this is because on some of the other boards there is so much bagging on LFS's (Some legitimate some not), that I would hate for some to feel frustrated by it.

that being said, I'm not sure how orders for fish are done. If they have ultimate control or not of what they get. but I do believe that they do their best to control the quality of the livestock they get.

Best,

Rob

Troy F
03-16-2003, 10:23 PM
Good post Rob. Welcome back to Canada eh!

I think they're a great store myself and have no problem with their ethics. Allen, John and Jeff all shoot from the hip and give you honest answers (which of course are their opinions). I too have witnessed them turn customers off of certain animals because they knew people wouldn't be ready for them. I haven't found a store that puts as much effort and money into their systems.

On the subject of Powder Blues:

I've never seen a vibrantly coloured small one. They have some of the nicest I've seen in the larger sizes.

Allen has spent some time finding a good supplier and in his experience he's had a high success rate (98% survival) with this species from this supplier.

I've never kept a PBT but my reading indicates they belong in an experienced hobbyists tank. My one attempt with this species ended badly but I didn't start with a healthy animal. I personally probably wouldn't try again.

naesco
03-16-2003, 10:54 PM
I don't think that anyone was critical of the management of J&L but I think most of the posters were surprised that they were offering a tang, which is very very difficult for even the most experienced reefers, on sale on their website.

christyf5
03-16-2003, 11:04 PM
OK I don't know much about tangs, mostly because my tank is too small so I've sort of veered away from them and deal with smaller fish. What exactly is it that makes a PBT so hard to keep (if not the obvious, "well they just die in captivity")???

Christy :)

naesco
03-16-2003, 11:46 PM
Christie
Like most fish, if you provide the right conditions which include a suitably sized tank, pristine water and a correct feeding regimen, tangs will have a long and happy life.

However there are species of fish which are impossible to keep (long term) and some that are very very difficult to keep.
The powder blue tang is in the latter category.
IMO they are a sensitive fish. This begins with their capture, holding and shipment to the LFS. Many don't make it past the LFS doors and for that reason many LFS refuse to carry them anymore. Reefers are not going to buy a fish that is unhealthy looking.

Provided you have the right conditions, it has been my experience and the experience of many tang keepers, that the powder blue tang does well for a number of months 4-9 and then for no apparent reason gets sick. The symptoms include refusal to eat, hiding, inactivity and eventually some type of bacterial or other infection including ich that attacks them in this weakened state. They die often causing problems for the other tankmates as well.
IMO this is a very sensitive fish that requires optimum conditions in the strictest sense. In most tanks something is lacking that will not allow it to survive.
A tiny percentage of experienced reefers have had long term success with this fish. Most reefers who claim success have not had them that long.

Based on the above, it is my personal opinion that the powder blue tang should not be sold at LFS or online stores. It should be available on an order basis to reefers who feel that they can provide the optimum care they need.

My personal objection to seeing these fish available is as follows.
1. Most powder blue tangs are already sick when they are available for sale.
2. Because powder blue tangs come from both Indonesia and the Phillippines where the use of cyanide is prevalent in the capture of most tangs, angels and triggers the risk is increased.
3. Most online and LFS stores do not indicate where the fish comes from, whether it is guaranteed net caught and and honest assessment of the the degree of difficulty.
4. Like mandarins, the powder blue tangs are sucker fish for newbies who are the first choices because of their outstanding beauty.

The fishers who catch them, the exporters, wholesales and LFS and online stores ALL know the difficulties with this fish yet dont let the reefer know.
We are long past the buyer beware thinking of the past. We have the right to demand that an ethical and responsible industry serve our and our fellow reefers needs. (sorry for the bit of preaching here but I dont think it surprises anyone
:wink:

Delphinus
03-17-2003, 05:08 AM
What about saltwater connection? What are they selling? Anyone know?


Jayson is away on a really long road trip right now, so he likely won't be able to answer. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he & I have had many frank discussions about cyanide in the past. He will not order from places/areas where he knows cyanide use is rampant. He, at one time, was looking into becoming MAC certified. I don't know if that process is complete or not, but as the MAC certification criteria dictate, you can only order from MAC certified suppliers and they can't be using cyanide and etc. etc. I know MAC certification has been debated in the past, particularly "what good can a piece of paper accomplish" but I personally DO beleive that the idea has potential and merit. He also visits his suppliers on a regular basis, so he has the chance to scrutinize who he does business with in person. Of course, I guess it still comes down to "who do you trust as your vendor" but for me, at least, I do trust Jayson on that one.

zulu_principle
03-17-2003, 06:05 AM
Time to step on some toes:

Limited Flights, same flight, same supplier, different supplier.......

Same ocean, same supply, almost identical technique in capture.

Same Flight............

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out someone sells to all of the retail outfits.

Call a spade a spade or fold, but lets not try to bull&*(^.



Wendell

saltcreep
03-17-2003, 02:54 PM
Wendell,

Sorry for your pessimistic view on this situation. Just a quick count, but there are 8+ companies importing fish directly from overseas in Vancouver alone. Product also comes from 6+ major collection areas. Others import product from LA. That would lead me to believe that there is a variety of fish available in the Lower Mainland.

There is a world of difference in the way that overseas exporters collect, handle, and ship their product. Look at just the issue over cyanide use. Some use it...some don't. I don't think that saying that there are different exporters used is "bull waste". The Philippines alone, there are five exporters used by my count. They all differ.

I guess in my hand I can have 13 different spades. You choose the one to call.

Delphinus
03-17-2003, 03:28 PM
Hi Wendell,

What would you suggest as a potential solution? Assuming that there is one, of course, perhaps there is not. But working on the premiss that we would like a sustainable hobby so that we can still enjoy our hobby in 2010 and 2020 and beyond ... what should we do? Eliminate all wild-caught livestock (maybe that will happen anyways?) and the only livestock is captive-prop? I admit I like the sounds of that, although it probably restricts the available diversity quite a bit (perhaps a small price to pay? I don't know.)

saltcreep
03-17-2003, 07:43 PM
MAC (Marine Aquarium Council) is a possible solution, even with it's faults. Some are being addressed at the moment, but there is still a long way to go.

An important factor in all of this is the informed hobbiest. This thread is a perfect example.Putting pressure on LFS and wholesale companies, to not carry items that are difficult/impossible to keep is a start. How about implementing an USL (Unsuitable Species List) for wholesale/LFS to not purchase?

Many captive bred/raised items are available. Unfortunately on the whole these items are more expensive than wild caught. A poll was taken a while ago about this topic and the majority of posters to this board said they would buy CB items even at a premium. This is not the case for the majority of the hobbiest as price ,which was even stated as a major factor for purchases in a previous posting, is the single biggest factor on what they buy and where they buy it.

Who knows?

BCOrchidGuy
03-17-2003, 08:21 PM
One thing to keep in mind as far as hard to keep animals is that some times if the shipper is out of one thing, they ship another. I know my favorite LFS grumbles about that with some of the livestock they get. They order something, perhaps small emperor angels.. (an example nothing more) and they get HUGE ones, the guy who runs the marine section will tell people don't buy it, its going to die, unless I can get it to eat. I guess that is an example to of why captive bred fish are better. As I read through this thread I have come to the realization that my pocket book shouldn't be as much a factor in my purchases as it has been.

On the bright side, I am still looking for a source for affordable captive bred seahorses. I may just have to go to Blaine and have them shipped there.

naesco
03-17-2003, 10:55 PM
MAC (Marine Aquarium Council) is a possible solution, even with it's faults. Some are being addressed at the moment, but there is still a long way to go.

An important factor in all of this is the informed hobbiest. This thread is a perfect example.Putting pressure on LFS and wholesale companies, to not carry items that are difficult/impossible to keep is a start. How about implementing an USL (Unsuitable Species List) for wholesale/LFS to not purchase?

Wow a chance post and it is going 3 pages with excellent comments from all and no flames
Saltcreep the idea that we can make a difference and put pressure on our suppliers to get cyanide free fish and stop importing and selling fish on a USL is great. It will benefit everyone because we can get healthier fish. New reefers benefit because they wont get stuck with impossible to keep species and cyanide fish.
We can all start right now by ASKING where it came from right after we ask to see it eating.
I would be really interested in the owners of LFS and online stores reaction to these informed reefer questions.

saltcreep
03-17-2003, 11:12 PM
BCOG - A simple solution for your LFS, WRT substitutions, is to simply tell the supplier to stop sending substitutions or they will stop purchasing from them. Or, ask them to only substitute with items they have ordered. Simple solutions. When push comes to shove the almighty dollar speaks for itself.

BCOrchidGuy
03-18-2003, 02:41 AM
After a blank stare from the Manager at my favorite LFS it dawned on me, they didn't say they get cyanide caught fish. An employee at another.. (reputable) store said my favorite ONLY sells cyanide caught fish. When I spoke to the manager today he had a good laugh and then accused me of hiding my blonde roots.... (no offence to any blondes)

My favorite fish store uses the same supplier(s) for their fish as the reputable shop we all love, however it was one of the employees not a manager at the reputable shop that told me about the cyanide caught fish are being sold at my favorite LFS. When I went down stairs to talk to the guy who runs the marine section he almost kicked me out when I asked if he sells cyanide caught fish. Some fancy talking and foot work and he calmed down.

Rumours are easy to spread and start, Hey did you hear, Big Al's buys ****** from ****** and they are known for ******* .

My mistake folks I got confused, I guess I talked to one to many people. So I would like to take this opportunity to say my LFS still is my favorite, strangely enough when the last fellow who ran the marine section left, the prices of the fish went up... I didn't make the connection.

sumpfinfishe
03-18-2003, 04:29 AM
I do agree that such hard to keep fish such as powder blue's should not be sold to a beginner hobbyiest. However! I don't know how many reefers know that ordering fish is no simple task. It's all about availability.
Let's say your a store owner for example, and a customer begs you to order him/her a yellow tang. Maybe after a few weeks of being faxed availability list, you finally see yellow tangs on the list. So you order one for that patient customer and three more for stock. With most suppliers, it's sometimes luck of the draw if you get exactly what you ordered. So what happens if the supplier you faxed back your order too is all out of stock of yellow tangs now-well too late! Most times they will substitute powder blue or another type of tang for the yellow tangs, or manderian gobbies for yellow watchmen gobbies for another example-that's just the way it is!

We should not be so harsh on our LFS :( as it's not there fault most of the time-it's the suppliers. That's why it's so hard for stores to find a really good supplier. If I was a store owner I would not want to order a whole bunch of fish that nobody wants to buy-but what happens when my supplier substitutes them by mistake or just wants to get them on his/her hands- then I'm stuck selling them at a sale price because that's all I can do. No, I can't send them back so I have to try and sell them. If you tell your supplier to stop sending you powder blues, then who nows, maybe you will never get sent another tang ever again or he might just add more to your next shippment. So what I'm saying is "it's really really hard for a LFS sometimes to have control over what they recieve in there shippments".

just my opinion, peace all :D
cheers, Rich

naesco
03-18-2003, 05:08 AM
s/t fishy.
Thanks for your opinion but I agree with Saltcreep.
The buyer is the boss. If the LFS tells the wholesaler no substitutions and they do it the LFS should not be forced to accept it. They should refuse to pay.
We are not talking about substituting one article for another of similar value.
We are talking about substituting a live animal that no body wants and IMO that simply is not acceptable.

EmilyB
03-18-2003, 05:26 AM
When we first got into the hobby, we had an informed person at an LFS. He ordered in for us. He ordered in our LTA, as a matter of fact, which is still here. He did not order in four, just one....

BCOG, is the LFS you speak of where we ran into you? Whose the guy in there who might have been overheard telling newbies "well, everything dies sometime..."

sumpfinfishe
03-18-2003, 02:34 PM
Naesco - all I'm tryiny to say is that it's not always up to the boss(LFS), sometimes s#it happens. S#it happened with the Powder Blue Tangs as well, because I know of three stores that I went to on the weekend that all had Powder Blue Tangs, only one of these stores ordered these fish. One store told me they were overshipped, another told me it was a supplier's mistake, and the last told me that it was suppliers way of selling off fish that were brought in by mistake.

So, the bottom line is, as long as there are fish stores and aquarist then there is bound to be mistakes sometimes. Fish stores and there suppliers are not perfect, and we all make mistakes sometime. I can see writting a bad post about a store if there are making such actions a habbit. However, the case with J&L for example should not be treated to harsh if they don't make a habbit of such actions. Post like this can cause damage for a store, for which the LFS may have been completly not in the wrong.

just my two cents-not worth much :wink:

naesco
03-18-2003, 08:23 PM
ST/ fishy
IMO all the posts here have been excellent. No flames.
I dont think for one moment that J&L has been harmed by these postings.
I think they learned from them though.
Hopefully others have as well.

sumpfinfishe
03-18-2003, 10:11 PM
naesco wroteI don't think for one moment that J&L has been harmed by these postings

naesco wroteOrdering a bunch of cheap powder blues, dumping them cheap on a bunch of unsuspecting newbies in not what we reefers expect from J&L


IMO- a comment like that is harmful!
sumpfinfishe

naesco
03-18-2003, 10:49 PM
S/T fishy
Its the old BB typed comment.
How about We reefers have a high opinion of J&L. We would not expect them to buy powder blue tangs on the cheap, and dump them on unsuspecting reefers.

sumpfinfishe
03-18-2003, 11:53 PM
I know what your saying naesco :wink: , I just think that sometimes these post can damage a store's reputation even if they don't read that strong. It's the implacations or expectations that sometimes do more harm.

cheers, Rich :D

naesco
03-19-2003, 01:55 AM
Right S/T fishy
The moral for all LFS and online stores is don't put yourself in a position to do anything that gives you anything :D but positive comments from all of the members of this and other boards.

justaguy
03-19-2003, 03:00 AM
Naesco, when are you going to share some pics of your tanks...? You sound like you must have wonderful tang tanks and I am sure everyone would be very interested in seeing them and the conditions you try to emulate for them.

Jeff

BCOrchidGuy
03-19-2003, 04:11 AM
Emily, I am surprised by what you say was said, dissapointed more than that. I think I know who would say that.... and he probably got reamed for saying it if his brother overheard him.... If he didn't I will speak to Eric tomorrow and let him know that when stupid stuff like that is said, it hurts their reputation when experienced folks overhear it. It isn't a perfect store by any means.... The lady who now runs it does so as a business, not as a service, the manager is more service oriented but stupid stuff still happens.

stephane
03-28-2003, 04:10 PM
I will add my 2 cents here. The online store we have like Salwater connection and J&L are the 2 best store I know

Yes there maybe some place for improve and I agree one should not sell powder blue in special but you should never forget that those two store are IMO the best of the best and we should very happy to have them

IMO notting could compare to those store for service,quality and the price. fish coral,and dry good from J&L and SWC are 1/2 and sometime 1/3 the price of wath I can find here and in beter shape so yes there a place for improve but people should not forget they already do a realy great job :mrgreen:

Quinn
03-28-2003, 05:10 PM
agreed. i haven't purchased livestock yet, but for dry goods, my dealings with J&L and SWC have been very smooth and satisfactory. along with aquarium illusions in edmonton, i plan to make them my chief sources for livestock. at least they're not like some other shops we know, that sell aptasia for $30 a pop. :rolleyes:

Seriak
03-28-2003, 05:31 PM
$30.00 a pop for aiptasia. I'm rich!

Quinn
03-28-2003, 05:52 PM
$30.00 a pop for aiptasia. I'm rich!

there are two chain shops in edmonton that sell them, as curliqueue anemones. of course i'm not positive it's actually aptasia, but it looks the same, is just as harmful, and apparently spreads just as fast. some kind of pest anemone.

then there's the LFS in lacombe, ab, that sells a yellow tang for $60 and very much dead "live" rock for about $20/lb. and figures it's impossible to do a marine tank smaller than 40 gallons :rolleyes:

BCOrchidGuy
03-30-2003, 02:21 AM
So, I was at J & L, this after noon and bought some Seahorses, just two thats all they had left. They said most of the people who bought them are beginners so they didn't expect a lot of success from these people. Oddly enough they say they never order Seahorses they just get them with their shipments, the seahorses are Mac certified so they know they were net caught.. (can't imagine it is difficult to do) so..... my question is, alot of people say no one should support a fish store that lets their suppliers substitute things or ship them things that they wouldn't normally order....Is anyone going to stop shopping at J&L?... didn't think so

BTW Indonesia has lost it's cites permit, the permit expired and will not be renewed, so brace yourself I imagine the prices of fish are going to go up.

Quinn
03-30-2003, 02:38 AM
ah, mac certification, that's a whole other ballgame. :rolleyes:

i was reading in the latest national geographic that while chiru (deer-like mammals from tibet) are protected under chinese law, chinese military men and politicians have been arrested for poaching them. how do we know mac is doing what they say they are doing?

i don't think it would be easy to stop livestock that wasn't ordered from coming in, but couldn't J&L avoid selling something like seahorses to less-experienced aquarists? i realize they've got a bottom line to worry about, but it would be nice if they could just say "no" :confused:

BCOrchidGuy
03-30-2003, 02:51 AM
I sure would hope they could do that, but frankly, they can't ask for a resume before they sell hard to keep species... its a hard call... I figure even with out the Mac certification seahorses should be easy to catch, UNLESS they are a by catch of another method...

I don't mean to be the devils advocate here, just making a statement that even J&L gets stuff they don't order and they sell it to people who have $$... you would almost think they are running a business or something...

saltcreep
03-30-2003, 04:17 AM
Funny how they can be MAC certified when J&L aren't even certified themselves???

Quinn
03-30-2003, 04:42 AM
you would almost think they are running a business or something...

:biggrin: i hear ya. gotta make money somehow right :neutral:

BCOrchidGuy
03-30-2003, 03:18 PM
My understanding is that they are certified... hmm... velllly intellesting... (as the old german soldier used to say on laugh in)

Troy F
03-30-2003, 05:24 PM
TeeVee, MAC certification is for the wholesalers and collectors as far as I know. The idea is for retailers to sell MAC certified fish.

Indonesia has not lost it's CITIES permit. It has not reissued and it must not be high on the priority list for their gov't. It wouldn't be a first time that there's been a problem with CITIES.

Quinn
03-30-2003, 08:00 PM
TeeVee, MAC certification is for the wholesalers and collectors as far as I know. The idea is for retailers to sell MAC certified fish.



that was saltcreep who was questioning that :smile:

BCOrchidGuy
03-30-2003, 08:17 PM
I was told that it wont be renewed because of over fishing etc....

saltcreep
03-30-2003, 09:28 PM
MAC certification is for all involved in the industry, from collector to retailer. For a retailer to sell fish as MAC certified, first the retailer has to be certified. Next they have to have a supplier who is MAC certified. The fish themselves have to be certified all the way through the supply chain and meet the mortality requirements to become certified at a retailer. To my knowledge no retailers are certified in Canada yet.

naesco
03-30-2003, 10:28 PM
Saltcreep is right. MAC includes the LFS and online stores.
Yes but Coast Mountain which is a wholesaler in Vancouver is. As long as we ensure that the fish we buy come from them we know we are getting cyanide free fish. Hopefully other wholesalers including the LFS will follow.
How do we know?
Just ask the LFS. Dont be afraid. They wont bite off your head. :cool:

Quinn
03-30-2003, 10:34 PM
here's an interesting question... has anyone here actually tried to keep a powder blue? what luck did you have with it (no i am not considering one, just wondering).

StirCrazy
03-30-2003, 10:46 PM
Saltcreep is right. MAC includes the LFS and online stores.
Yes but Coast Mountain which is a wholesaler in Vancouver is. As long as we ensure that the fish we buy come from them we know we are getting cyanide free fish. Hopefully other wholesalers including the LFS will follow.
How do we know?
Just ask the LFS. Dont be afraid. They wont bite off your head. :cool:

and how can they prove that the fish are cyanide free when MAC doesent test for cyanide at this time?

Steve

naesco
03-30-2003, 11:04 PM
quote]

and how can they prove that the fish are cyanide free when MAC doesent test for cyanide at this time?

Steve[/quote]

All MAC certified fish are not cyanid caught.
Random cyanide testing will ensure that no one on the chain cheats.
MAC may have reinstituted the tests already. We will find out tonight.

I tried a powder blue a couple of times. The fish up an died witin 9 months for no apparent reason. I thought it was me until I read on reefcentral and reefs org posts by experienced reefers with the same results. Some LFS posted that they no longer sell them for the same reason.
"I have a sick powder blue tang" is the most common sick fish post that I have observed on those boards as well.
Having said that some reefers have kept them alive for some time :confused:

BCOrchidGuy
03-30-2003, 11:52 PM
J&L told me that Mac certified meant I could ask them to find out exactly where the fish was caught and by which collector, including the day it was caught, as well as to guarantee that the fish was net caught.

So whats this about they may be starting the testing again did they stop random testing? Who does the testing?

StirCrazy
03-31-2003, 12:19 AM
J&L told me that Mac certified meant I could ask them to find out exactly where the fish was caught and by which collector, including the day it was caught, as well as to guarantee that the fish was net caught.

So whats this about they may be starting the testing again did they stop random testing? Who does the testing?

from the start and up to about 2 months ago no one does the testing, MAC decided that the cyanide testing wasn;t importand when compared to the other idems they were trying to do. So basicly they are relying on the colectors being honest.

MAC cirtification is not a real guarentee yet (I personaly would love to see it work) but there is problems with the testing and it hasn't as of yet been done by MAC.

Personaly I have not heard of any importers being MAC certified yet, as most are against it, so it is all find and dandy to get MAC certified fish to the importers but will they be kept seperate from non cirtified fish? Especialy at a non certified place? Personay the only way I could ever see MAC working is if the catcher, exporter, impoter, and store delt with 100% MAC certified and nothing else. as soon as one of thease legs is missing ther eis no proof that the fish you got is MAC certified or if it has been substuted to make more money.

The Idea of MAC is good but the way they have been going about it is not.. unless there have been some big changes in the last 2 months I would question any store that says they are selling MAC certified fish as how they could be ceritfied cyanide free with no randome testing.

Is something going on tonight Naesco?

Steve

EmilyB
03-31-2003, 12:28 AM
here's an interesting question... has anyone here actually tried to keep a powder blue? what luck did you have with it (no i am not considering one, just wondering).

Well, some have already responded with their experiences, and imo you will find that most often these are the same people hating to see these fish in the hands of a newbie, let alone an experienced reefer.

I'll add my experience, I have never in my life seen ick like that. (Well, an achilles was a close second.....) I tried a powder blue as a relative newbie to the hobby. As many do. :sad: And, no, I did not QT. (However, I don't think ALL fish need quarantine, or necessarily benefit from it....but that is an aside...)

This stuff isn't always about the experienced reefer ....it's about the newbie ...and at least TRYING to save them the same loss experiences, whether they feel that $$wise or whatever works....

It's a good point tho teevee......I have witnessed a powder blue die. If I had a 300g or more that was years old....yeah, I might order one in. :confused:

naesco
03-31-2003, 12:46 AM
At 6pm Vancouver timee on reefs org , chat #reef, there is a discussion about MAC. Brandt who is the MASNA President just got back from the Phillippines.

saltcreep
03-31-2003, 12:51 AM
Coast Mountain Aquatics is the first and only certified company in Canada to date.

The entire premise of being MAC certified is akin to being ISO certified. It is not just about cyanide free fish but that every aspect of your business meets a certain level of professionalism (for the lack of a better word). Yes, having cyanide free fish is a major factor in the process but so is the ability to track the certified fish through proper record keeping and segregation of fish.

There is a certain level of trust placed with a MAC certified company. The process of performing post audits and random cyanide testing at exporters' facilities would definitely assist with keeping people honest. This is like having the possibility of having your taxes audited as an incentive for doing them properly.

If a retailer or importer is not certified by MAC then none of the fish they can't sell any fish as MAC certified, even if it comes from a MAC certified supplier.

BCOrchidGuy
03-31-2003, 12:57 AM
Great Saltcreep thanks for the info....

Now as far as Powder blue tangs... what is the problem with them... I know achilles tangs need more water movement than most aquariums have, I've read that they need upwards of raging river current in the tank....

Quinn
03-31-2003, 12:58 AM
apparently get ich more than other tangs.