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Pansy-Paws
03-11-2003, 07:37 PM
Our new Koran angel stopped eating yesterday :cry:

We got him on Saturday (and had seen him eating at the LFS on Thursday) and he ate like a pig on Saturday night and Sunday. Then yesterday, he wouldn't look at any food. Same today. We're feeding him frozen Mysis shrimp or Mega Marine Angel - and adding drops of X-treme Garlic. We tried a fresh clam last night, but still no eating. Put some nori in the tank - doesn't look at it.

He's in our quarantine tank and we checked the water parameters and all is normal. He's slightly more reclusive than he was on the first couple of days, but seems fine except for the eating problem.

I know Angels can be hard to start feeding (our lovely Flagfin Angel didn't have any problems, though) but he was so good to begin with :? I'm sure getting worried. Does anyone have any suggestions :?:

BCOrchidGuy
03-11-2003, 08:04 PM
Try hatching out some BBS, live food may be just the ticket to kick start the appetite again.

Skimmerking
03-11-2003, 08:16 PM
maybe rose
the fish has been in LFS for a good time and now finds himself in a new location. and now he ****ed.
With my angel I had the CB he didn't eat for a couple of days.. :wink:

naesco
03-12-2003, 12:47 AM
Continue the garlic regimen as it acts as a food attractant. Try keeping the lights off for a day and staying away from the tank to avoid stressing it. If in a couple of days no change you will have to consider putting her in the main tank. Check for ich and other indications first.
Did you verify the origin of the fish?
If it was from the Phillippines or Indonesia it is likely cyanide caught as most angels, tangs and triggers are caught with cyanide.
Go back to the LFS and ask them and if you do not feel comfortable with the answer ask to see the invoice.
I hope cyanide is not your problem and that it is simply the move to your tank.

Pansy-Paws
03-12-2003, 01:38 AM
Naesco -
:?: Why would it be a good idea to put him in the main tank in a couple of days? If you are thinking about giving him grazing opportunities . . . we've put some calerpa and live rock with button polyps (which our flagfin angel loves) into the quarantine tank. We usually keep our fish in quarantine after purchase for 3 weeks.
Just wondering . . . have you ever asked to see an invoice at an LFS? If so, what response did you get. I would feel ok asking where the fish came from, but don't think I'd get anywhere asking to see an invoice for confirmation. Most of the LFS we deal with know us, and we assume they are telling us the truth when they answer our questions. Good faith and all that . . . :wink:

Aquattro
03-12-2003, 01:51 AM
Go back to the LFS and ask them and if you do not feel comfortable with the answer ask to see the invoice.
.

I just have to watch you do this one day!! If I owned a store and you came in and "accused" me of lying by asking to see an invoice after I had answered you, I'd have the cops drag you from my store!!
Please stop telling people to do silly things like this, you'll get them in trouble! 8)

Pansy-Paws
03-12-2003, 02:14 AM
P.S. what new or 'hidden' info would the invoice say, anyways? "Caught using cyanide -- fish may die." :wink: I've seen that recommendation from naesco before and never could figure out the point of it. Let's assume the truth is being told until we learn otherwise is my motto.

BCOrchidGuy
03-12-2003, 02:35 AM
FWIW if you ask Eric at King Ed Pets if the fish are cyanide caught he will haul out the invoice to show you where they were shipped from. When I am haggling over the price on anything there thats the first thing he does is pull out the invoice and his calculator.

naesco
03-12-2003, 04:22 AM
Let me understand.
You shelled out one hundred bucks for an angel and you are too scared to ask the LFS where it came from, Pansy
It is been my experience that if a fish is not eating in a tiny qt or is stressed to death, moving it to the main tank my save its life.

Dont do it if you see visible signs of ich or bacterial or fungus signs. Close off the lights for one day and stay away from the tank.
The idea here is to give the new fish some space away from the stress of its tankmates.
Feed the garlic regimen as an ich preventative.

naesco
03-12-2003, 04:25 AM
Let me understand.
You shelled out one hundred bucks for an angel and you are too scared to ask the LFS where it came from, Pansy
If any LFS refuses to show you where the fish came from there is a reason, eh.
Tangs, angels and triggers from the Phillipines and Indonesia are commonly caught with cyanide.
But we are fortunate in Vancouver because net caught fish are available from wholesalers. All you have to do is ask. I promise you the LFS will not bite off your head :wink:

It is been my experience that if a fish is not eating in a tiny qt or is stressed to death, moving it to the main tank my save its life.

Dont do it if you see visible signs of ich, bacteria or fungal infection. Close off the lights for one day and stay away from the tank.
The idea here is to give the new fish some space away from the stress of its tankmates.
Feed the garlic regimen as an ich preventative.

Aquattro
03-12-2003, 04:31 AM
Let's assume the truth is being told until we learn otherwise is my motto.

Good motto. Doubt it has any application to the ornamental fish trade, but good motto nonetheless. Naesco is correct to believe a LFS owner might "misrepresent" the origin of a fish. However, I doubt any LFS (barring King Ed's) would show you an invoice to reassure you they really aren't lieing.
Spend time at the fish store looking at fish. If you see one you like, look at others for comparison. You will train yourself to see a healthy fish. Other than that, you pays yer money and you takes yer chances.

Just for fun ('cause I'm that kinda guy), I'm going to go to my nearest LFS and demand to see an invoice. I'll keep my watch in stopwatch mode to see exactly how long it takes for them to kick me out. I'll report back. :P


P.S. I'm not sure what to look for on an invoice.

BCOrchidGuy
03-12-2003, 04:43 AM
Point of origin, don't forget, fish may be shipped to the contenental US and then held for a short period of time, especially if flight connections are hard to make. I've only heard of this the odd time.

There should be something on it that either has the shippers name/location or the actual point of origin...

PS don't demand to see the invoice.. ask nice... lol

Its a hard call though some shippers may use different drugs/chemicals some may not.... a friend of mine breeds some of the genetically best guppies in the world, he was offered $500 for a trio of his fish, he shipped them to Hong Kong... low and behold, they were lost for 11 days. He uses Kordons Amquel and Novaqua when he ships fish... guess what, the fish were still alive, .... hungry but alive... can you imagine... 11 days... wow I still don't believe it

naesco
03-12-2003, 04:51 AM
``You pays your money and you take your chances`
That might be right if your at a casino.
But if you are forking out good money for quality fish you have a right to know where it came from. If any LFS refuses to tell you take your business elsewhere
Any invoice should tell you the country of origin of the fish and or the wholesaler who will know where they came from.
For those of you who are out of town and buy online, the same applies.
Ask for a net caught fish. They are available to all online stores and LFS. All you have to do is ask.

EmilyB
03-12-2003, 05:18 AM
What stores do you shop at naesco?

Pansy-Paws
03-12-2003, 06:42 AM
Neasco, maybe Ididn't make myself clear. When I buy a fish, I always asked where it was shipped from. I am not scared to do this and I always get an answer. If the cost is too high IMO, then I'll haggle. If the LFS wants to bring out an invoice to prove what they paid, that's ok with me, but not necessary (and no one has ever volunteered to do this).

Most of us must have had the 'typical' conservation about cost: "Gee Jim, $79 is a bit much for a chromi, don't you think?" and Jim will say "They are rare as can be and I had to pay $60 for them myself" (please smile :wink: at my example) Doesn't matter because I have a price in mind that I'm willing to pay -- I'm not trying to stiff the LFS -- just see if a price I'm comfortable with is workable. Sometimes they'll bring their price down, sometimes not. Also, at the point, where I'm thinking about buying I already done some research re prices locally and about the fish in general.

Guess I just didn't see the point in sorta assuming that reputable LFSs were misrepresenting themselves -- hey, but what do I know -- maybe you are right. But lets hope not. And it has nothing to do with being scared or Pansy -- it's just that I like to be a 'buyer beware' purchaser who nevertheless assumes the best about the people I deal with until I am convinced differently.

Back to the original problem . . . we tried the hatched BBS and still no luck. Keep your fins crossed for us.

p.s. Reef Raf -- keep us informed on your experiment LOL :lol:

naesco
03-12-2003, 03:35 PM
Gotcha Paws Thanks
Where did the lfs say they got your koran from?
Let us know when she starts eating.
Let us know what your lfs says

BCOrchidGuy
03-12-2003, 04:26 PM
Thats a shame Rose, its a lovely fish and I have to say your tanks are AWESOME looking, you have done a great job. Just out of curiosity whats the tank temperature?

chicki
03-16-2003, 02:44 PM
Gosh, I'm totally againist putting that new Koran in your main tank....sorry, but what a poor idea! It could have..any sort of disease...and then all your fish will be contaminated.

BCOrchidGuy
03-16-2003, 02:59 PM
I'm one to talk, but remember, I just wiped out my tank by NOT isolating new fish so I would isolate it, dark area, warm water.... you know the drill.

I hope you can get that fish turned around, I feel for you.

Van down by the river
03-19-2003, 09:01 AM
Well naesco,
I worked in a few stores and I will tell you. I would most certainly not show you the invoices. Would you go into Canadian Tire and ask for their invoice? Or maybe Safeway? because you are not convinced their produce is really organic. I think you will find you will not get far.
Does this mean I have no ethics, no. I will certainly tell you were I believe the fish came from.
I too would like to be there to see Grant or John's face when you ask JnL's or Big Al's for their invoice............. I think you'll be waiting awhile.
If you persist I don't think you'll have the option of taking your business elswhere,.... I think they will ask you too.
I'm not trying to burn you, I just think you are being idealistic albeit with good intentions.

Also if net caught fish was as easy as just asking........don't you think we would have done that a long time ago?

(The rest of this is a general statement)
Unfortunately many hobbyists have a very poor understanding of "how" their fish really get here.
Maybe some of the transhippers that read this board can further "enlighten" us.
First off I wil tell you that EVERY exporter claims their fish are "net-caught" I would challenge anyone to find one that admits cyanide catching. (So how do they get those baby Blue Tangs?.....Hmmmm I wonder...............)

First off an aquarists purchases should be based on an educated decision and assesment of their abilities, Aquarium system condition, Tankmates, and care requirements of the particular species. As well as the health and condition of the animal in the store. Were it came from, in most cases has little bearing. I have seen good and bad from all areas.

Sometimes an exporter will have fish from other areas on his list, that I know aren't found in that area. So it is difficult to determine origin sometimes. Especially if they are from LA Exporters.
Often the fish have changed hands many times before you or I get them.

Many stores believe that their suppliers are proprietary information. They think that they have an "edge" by using certain exporters. I find this amusing as they are often all buying from the same exporters!
(Ever notice they all get a shipment the same day)
I believe how they handle their livestock once they recieve it is vastly more important than were it came from. I often see the same shipment at different stores with the appearance of different "quality" but it was all about how each LFS unpacks and handles the animals.

Well I could rant more but who's gonna read it anyway!

BCOrchidGuy
03-19-2003, 07:31 PM
I admit I know nothing about how the fish are shipped up here, but I did note earlier that they all seem to get the fish on the same day and around the same times, if one store doesn't get Clams, either does the other store. The arguement that was given to me was that there are very limited flights coming out of the areas, there may be 20 different suppliers putting stuff on the same flight.... I would like to know for sure, 100%, with out a doubt where the fish come from.

Aquattro
03-19-2003, 08:37 PM
I don't know much about this stuff, but when one LFS gets stuff from Ming or Sam Wu, the other 2 LFS get boxes as well. When the LFS I deal with gets a box from Seacare, the box doesn't come with any other supplier's stuff....just by it's lonesome.
So, to my little brain, it looks like the limited flights thing is a line of crap.
Can any wholesaler confirm that when they are putting boxes of fish on a flight, all the other wholesalers are beside them putting their boxes on the same flight?
I also find it strange that 2 stores here get boxes of Jakarta rock from the same flight, in the same boxes with identical rock and then claim they have different suppliers. Uh-huh......
I understand that Ming and/or Sam read this board....comments gentlemen?

Van down by the river
03-19-2003, 08:49 PM
Good post reef_raf,
Seacare is local.
You sumed the others up. Same flight? maybe. If so then it's probably still the same exporter.

Aquattro
03-21-2003, 06:01 PM
Just a follow up. I went to LFS #1 and asked about a fish. They didn't know. I asked to see an invoice so I would feel comfortable buying the fish; I was told there is no way they are going to show me an invoice. I hinted that maybe I should buy a fish elsewhere...they hinted the same thing back to me.
They got fish today, the box came from Phillipines. I'm going to LFS #2 at lunch today, because they picked up the same boxes with fish today. I'll report after lunch.

Samw
03-21-2003, 06:28 PM
Love the drama. Good entertainment value. :)

naesco
03-21-2003, 06:38 PM
This is not only entertaining it is positive feedback.
Good work Reef-raf
It is 100% OK to let us all the know the name of the store or online you contacted.
We all want to know which ones provide the country where the fish came from and those who do not.
If they do not we can assume that the fish are from the Phillipinnes and Indonesia where cyanaide is used in their capture.

Aquattro
03-21-2003, 07:54 PM
Naesco, the boxes did all come from the Philipines. They were imported and sold to the LFS by Sam Wu. Are you saying all Sam's fish are cyanide caught?

smokinreefer
03-22-2003, 01:31 AM
it's all Samw's fault.
:lol: :shock: :lol:

naesco
03-22-2003, 03:53 AM
Reef Raf is Sam Wu the SamW on our board?

Reef Raf you need to ask him whether the fish came from the Phillippines.

You need to ask him if they did come from the Phillippines, whether he purchased them from a net caught Phillippine exporter like Marvini.

EmilyB
03-22-2003, 04:00 AM
No, I think that was a joke........ :lol:

EmilyB
03-22-2003, 04:02 AM
Naesco, is there any reason you can't show up at the Vic tour?

naesco
03-22-2003, 04:15 AM
I didn't think so but thought I had better ask.
Let us know what Sam Wu says, Reef Raf

Aquattro
03-22-2003, 05:17 AM
No, as far as I know, SamW is not Sam Wu, the fish importer. I don't know Sam Wu and I'm sure he has better things to do than converse with me about the origin of anything.
As for the tour, EVERYONE is welcome!!


P.S. Shao, stop stirring the pot :D

Samw
03-22-2003, 05:18 AM
it's all Samw's fault.
:lol: :shock: :lol:


Don't get me into trouble. :)

Case of mistaken identity.

Van down by the river
03-22-2003, 10:35 AM
By the way it is Sam Yu, not Wu. I don't believe Sam Yu reads the boards at all. They mostly handle freshwater and 95% of their saltwater is tranship. they only have about 200 gallons of saltwater holding tanks, if even that.

So question naesco?\
If you don't buy cyanide caught fish as you say all Indo/Phillipine fish are. Then were do you get them? Considering those two areas account for probably 90% of the fish available.

naesco
03-22-2003, 06:14 PM
Hi Van
Not all fish caught in the Phillippines and Indonesia are cyanide caught.
However most triggers, tangs and angels are.
If a reefer is considering buying one of these fish it is vital to ensure it is not from these countries. That is why you must ask where it is from.
There are certified cyanide free exporters like Marvini in the Phillippines.
Wholesalers in Vancouver like Seacare and Coast Mountain buy these fish from them.
By going into any LFS you can ensure that the fish you want is not cyanide caught by requesting that the store purchase the fish for you from them.
This is what I would do.

You seem to be concerned about this subject. I do not know the specific link but if you go to www.seacrop.com and follow the cyanide thread you will be shocked at what we do by buying cyanide fish.
Thank you for posting

Van down by the river
03-25-2003, 08:11 AM
Thank you I did read it. It is well researched site. I look forward to future updates.
I will definitely ad it to my "reading" list