New tank design graphic ... Tell me what you think...

[Megalodon]

Hi everyone. I would like constructive criticism on this, please. Affirmation on what I'm doing right would also be appreciated. Ask any questions you like. I'm starting this build next weekend. I already have most the equipment, the tank, and the stand. In all my excitement I don't want to overlook anything so I put this together on CorelDraw. Thanks for looking. :)


http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/dingleberry06/MyTankJPG.jpg

Highlights

90-gallon drilled tank
10-gallon refugium w/ reverse schedule lighting
20-gallon sump
AquaC EV-180 protein skimmer with Eheim 1262 pump
Eheim 1262 return pump
PVC 1/2” under-sand jets with in-tank Eheim 1262 pump
80-watts 50/50 strip lighting
DIY Sulfur Denitrator
DIY Kalk Reactor
Two Fishes Phosban Reactor
Two Fishes Carbon Reactor


Legend

A - 3/4" PVC Return Manifold
B - Strainer Overflow
C - 1" PVC Return Pipe
D - 3/4" PVC Return Pipe
E - 1" PVC Ball Valve
F - Return Chamber w/ Bio-Media
G - 10-gallon Refugium
H – DIY Stand (to hold Refuge above Sump)
I - 1" Bulkhead w/ Hose Attachment
J - Plastic Tubing
K - Return Chamber w/ Bio-Media
L - 20-gallon Sump
M - Baffles 1" apart
N - Eheim 1262 Return Pump
O – Refuge Light
P – 1/2” PVC “Out-branch”
Q - Outlet for Phosban Reactor
R - Outlet for Sulfur Denitrator
S - Outlet for Kalk Reactor
T - Outlet for Carbon Reactor

[Myka]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your water runs through your refugium, and then into your sump right? It should be the other way around, otherwise a lot of the pods that are in the fuge will be filtered out in your sump instead of making it into the tank. :)

Where are you keeping the reactors? I don't see enough room under the stand...?

[Megalodon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your water runs through your refugium, and then into your sump right? It should be the other way around, otherwise a lot of the pods that are in the fuge will be filtered out in your sump instead of making it into the tank. :)

Where are you keeping the reactors? I don't see enough room under the stand...?Only a third of the return water from the two overflows will be going through the refugium first. One return goes directly to the sump, and one goes into the refugium. To reduce the refugium flow even more, I have the ball valve (E).

Since pods are of a concern, I could always put the refugium's overflow output hose (J) into the last compartment of the sump (N instead of K) so that it will bypass the protein skimmer and reactors in the main sump compartment.

There might be enough room for the kalk, protein skimmer, carbon, and GFO reactors in the sump, while the sulfur denitrator could be used intermittently in front of the sump. (There will be some space in front of the sump and refugium). If there isn't enough room, I could just put the carbon and the GFO in the same reactor. Another option is making a DIY acrylic sump that is 17" wide and 26" long, which would surely have enough room.

[Megalodon]

Since pods are of a concern, I could always put the refugium's overflow output hose (J) into the last compartment of the sump (N instead of K) so that it will bypass the protein skimmer and reactors in the main sump compartment.Oh but then bubbles will get in there. Maybe I could somehow direct it into the baffles (M) instead.

[rocketlily]

On another site I have seen where the output "J" from the refugium is feed into the baffles "M". This then reduces the bubbles but not anything beneficial.

[Megalodon]

OK, good suggestion.

Here's the revision...

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/dingleberry06/MyTankv20.jpg

[Myka]

That looks better to me. I'm definately not a plumbing expert though!!! I'm plumbing my tank right now too, and I'm going with a Herbie silent overflow, you should check out the design. The way you have B & C set up it's going to a very noisy overflow.

the sulfur denitrator could be used intermittently

I'm pretty sure sulphur denitrators need to work continuously. I think they take time to start working.

[Megalodon]

Version 3...

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/dingleberry06/Tankv3.jpg


Updated Legend...

Legend

A - 3/4" PVC Return Manifold
B - Strainer Overflow
C - 1" PVC Drain Pipe
D - 3/4" PVC Return Pipe
E - 1" PVC Drain Pipe @ 45 angle
F - Refugium Return Chamber
G - 10-gallon Refugium
H – DIY Stand (to hold Refuge above Sump)
I - 1" Bulkhead w/ Hose Attachment
J - Plastic Tubing
K - Return Chamber w/ Mechanical Filter Media
L - 20-gallon Sump
M - Baffles 1" apart
N - Eheim 1262 Return Pump
O – Refugium Light
P – Eheim 1048 (158gph)
Q - ½"PVC Output to Refugium

[Megalodon]

That looks better to me. I'm definately not a plumbing expert though!!! I'm plumbing my tank right now too, and I'm going with a Herbie silent overflow, you should check out the design. The way you have B & C set up it's going to a very noisy overflow.I will.

I'm pretty sure sulphur denitrators need to work continuously. I think they take time to start working.Not sulfur ones. It takes them only a few days to start working, or at least people tell me.

[Myka]

Not sulfur ones. It takes them only a few days to start working, or at least people tell me.

Yes, this is what I meant. You said you'd use it intermittently though, wouldn't it be better to run it all the time? Albeit, I don't know much about these...

[Richard_Dicosimo]

Models 1260, 1262 Performance Curve
1260: Max Pump Output: 635gph, Max Delivery Head: 12`1``, Max Power: 65W
1262: Max Pump Output: 900gph, Max Delivery Head: 11`6``, Max Power: 80W

i think you are going to be dissapointed in your flow with all the conections you have tee'd off your main line. if your going to use an extra pump for your fuge maybe you could steal some of your water from the return on your fuge to fuel your reactors.

i helped a freind setup a 70 gal tank and it had a 900gal return pump i believe, and after all was said and done i felt it was not enough flow granted it was a ocean runner pump not an eheim.

Richard

[Megalodon]

Yes, this is what I meant. You said you'd use it intermittently though, wouldn't it be better to run it all the time? Albeit, I don't know much about these...I'd use it sometimes on my other tank as well.

[Megalodon]

i think you are going to be dissapointed in your flow with all the conections you have tee'd off your main line. if your going to use an extra pump for your fuge maybe you could steal some of your water from the return on your fuge to fuel your reactors.

i helped a freind setup a 70 gal tank and it had a 900gal return pump i believe, and after all was said and done i felt it was not enough flow granted it was a ocean runner pump not an eheim.

RichardThere's an Eheim 1262 in the tank as well, hooked up to a PVC manifold on the bottom. I also removed the tee-off from the mainline. That should bring my turnover to about 14X the tank volume per hour... I think.

[Zylumn]

Good job a lot of thought has gone into this so far.
I hope you don't mind a few suggestions.

- I liked the idea of 1 overflow feeding directly to the refugium. Why run another pump when you really don't have to. (you would need then ball/gate valves on your lines)
- Your return pump would essentially be in a chamber of about 3 or so gallons of water. ( If you don't mind topping up every day it should be no problem, but you will have to keep a close eye on your water level) I would make area (L) just large enough to house your skimmer and make your return area as large as you can; possibly switching dimensions. This will give you a few days before a top up.

- Also your bulkhead (I) should be below or equal to the hight of your baffle between (F) and (G)

Kevin

[Myka]

Is the tank drilled yet? I'm not a fan of returns. Is there a reason you're going over the top of the tank instead of drilling them? No room in the sump for power outtage overflow maybe...?

[Chin_Lee]

3 recommendations I would do if it were my tank:
1) in your fuge put in a backup bulkhead 1" higher that the primary in case the primary gets clogged.
2) put in gate valve (not ball valve) onto C or E to achieve herbie method for complete silent flow and pipes
3) put E straight down, then put in a union on E and C just below tank. Then put in 90" elbow fittings and pipes for the rest of the drain pipes. The unions will give you flexibility in terms of where you want the exit drain pipe to be by allowing you to "swivel".

[fkshiu]

You've obviously put a lot of thought and work into your plans, but perhaps you're over-thinking things a little bit.

Wouldn't you be able to achieve exactly the same results, but only have to use a single sump/fuge and a single return with melev's plan F?

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/f/sump_f.html

Aside from the complexity, the main issue I see with your plan is that you would have two tanks draining into your sump in the event of a power outage. The result is that you'd have to have a lot of empty "safety" space in your sump to absorb this water leaving you with precious little water volume in your sump unless it's very big.

[Megalodon]

Thank-you my fellow local hobbyists. Your advice has been wonderful. Please keep it coming.

My CorelDraw trail will expire in about five days, so I'll keep trying to post as many revisions as I can.

[Megalodon]

OK, bare with me here, the legend is now all over the map alphabetically. If I do another revision I might run out of letters, LOL.

Version 4 Legend

A - 3/4" PVC over-top return manifold
B - Strainer overflow w/ 1" drilled bulkhead
C - 1" PVC drain pipe
D - 3/4" PVC return pipe
E - 1" PVC drain pipe @ 90 degree angle
F - Refuge return chamber
G - 10-gallon refuge
H - DIY stand (to hold refuge above sump)
I - 1" bulkhead w/ hose attachment
J - Refuge main overflow drain tube
K - Drain area with filter bag
L - 20-gallon Sump
M - Baffles, first at 1.5" and the next at 1"
N - Eheim 1262 return pump
O - Refuge Light
Q - 1/2" PVC refuge feed
U - 90 degree PVC elbows that swivel
V - 1/2" gate valve (teed off return pipe)
W - Back-up refuge overflow output tube
X - AquaC EV-180 protein skimmer
Y - 1" gate valve

Changes... X, U, V, W, and Y have been added.

M, the baffles, has the first baffle 1.5" apart instead of 1" like the rest, to allow more opportunity for bubbles to escape.

E, is now at a 90 degree angle, to allow for U, a 90 degree joint that brings the pipe into the stand area and to another swivelling attachment. Tell me if you like the drain going directly to the refuge better.

K has now be altered. The glass separation has been removed to provide more room for the protein skimmer, and a filter sock was added to the drain

F, the refuge return chamber, is now smaller, as it doesn’t need to be so large. In fact, it might not need to be there at all.

W has been added in case J gets plugged. I won't bother putting that in the baffles because it's ever needed, pods are the least of my concern.

V and Y are gate valves instead of ball valves to allow greater flow control.

Q is now fed from the return instead of having a separate pump

Also, the return pump area in the sump has been enlarged considerably.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/dingleberry06/Tankv4.jpg

[Megalodon]

You've obviously put a lot of thought and work into your plans, but perhaps you're over-thinking things a little bit.

Wouldn't you be able to achieve exactly the same results, but only have to use a single sump/fuge and a single return with melev's plan F?

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/f/sump_f.html

Aside from the complexity, the main issue I see with your plan is that you would have two tanks draining into your sump in the event of a power outage. The result is that you'd have to have a lot of empty "safety" space in your sump to absorb this water leaving you with precious little water volume in your sump unless it's very big.Over-thinking in this case is good. I'm getting plenty of feedback and am therefore able to tweak it in ways I hadn't previously considered.

I'd have an all-in-one sump refuge but the trend now seems to be having them separate. I'm not doing it to be trendy or anything but I can tell you that I cannot fit a large all-in-oner in there as the centre braces are in the way.

I'd also get larger tanks for sumps but those are the dimensions they come in. Maybe I'll look into having custom sizes made.

[Megalodon]

3 recommendations I would do if it were my tank:
1) in your fuge put in a backup bulkhead 1" higher that the primary in case the primary gets clogged.
2) put in gate valve (not ball valve) onto C or E to achieve herbie method for complete silent flow and pipes
3) put E straight down, then put in a union on E and C just below tank. Then put in 90" elbow fittings and pipes for the rest of the drain pipes. The unions will give you flexibility in terms of where you want the exit drain pipe to be by allowing you to "swivel".Thanks Chin.

Check out version 4. It has incorporated all three of your recommendations.

I'm not sure if I'm going to stick with #3 though. I may go back to having the second drain go directly into the refuge.

[Boomboy]

ok to be honest you are wasting space, if you are trying to save space, have a sump and refugium in one, the fuge on the right and the sump on the left with the pump in the middle, have a t joint on your return and have a ball valve after that going into the fuge to control slow flow. much better space and simply design. to much plumbing means to many things go wrong.

[Megalodon]

ok to be honest you are wasting space, if you are trying to save space, have a sump and refugium in one, the fuge on the right and the sump on the left with the pump in the middle, have a t joint on your return and have a ball valve after that going into the fuge to control slow flow. much better space and simply design. to much plumbing means to many things go wrong.I cannot fit an all-in-one sump/refuge under there without removing one of the centre supports of the stand. I don't want to mess with that. Also, a lot of people seem to be going with seperate sump/refuges lately and I don't know of any complaints.

[mark]

Your design is somewhat similiar what I've done.

I have a 20g refugium sitting to the side and slightly above my 75g sump. I run two drains (Dursos) with one split between the sump and the ref, with the flow directed to the ref via a valve. The ref flows to the sump from a 1" horizontal bulkhead to the sump on the skimmer side of the baffles.

Comments from mine
-I'm flowing ~1000gph split between between 2-2" drains. They're quiet but nothing like a system I heard (Skimmin's) where he had ~2000gph with 2 Herbies (1.5" mains, 1" buckups) Silent, plus there was no gurgling in the sump. I would suggest plan your display for a Herbie and the loudest thing in your system will be the pumps.
-refugium feed, I'm splitting a drain, doesn't take flow away from going back to the tank and what a lot of this is about is maxing flow in the display. A negative is you'll collect a bit a detritus but at least for me it's really not a problem.
-refugium drain, I was surprised how little mine flows. Always see 600 gph for a 1" but turned sideways and without any head I'm safe at ~300gph. The backup is a good idea. Do see a little scum on the ref surface so glad I've got a overflow for surface skimming.
-refugium isolation, with a second valve then just throwing in a heater and a HOB filter (and maybe moving LR to sump) it's a QT tank. Figure if something like ick could treat with hypo, then before putting it back on-line would just run fallow.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h316/das75/sump_fug.jpg

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h316/das75/sump_fuge.jpg

[Megalodon]

Version 5...


A - 3/4" PVC over-top return manifold
B - Strainer overflow w/ 1" drilled bulkhead
C - 1" Spaflex drain (left-side)
D - 3/4" Spaflex return
G - 10-gallon refuge
H - DIY stand (to hold refuge above sump)
I - Refuge overflow w/ 1" drilled bulkhead
J - Refuge main overflow drain tube
K - Drain output with filter bag
L - 20-gallon Sump
M - Baffles, first at 1.3" and the next at 1.5"
N - Eheim 1262 return pump
O - Refuge Light
Q - ½"Spaflex refuge feed
V - ½" Gate valve (teed off return)
W - Back-up refuge drain
X - AquaC EV-180 protein skimmer
Y - 1" Gate valve
Z- 1" Spaflex backup drain
1- Backup overflow w/ 1" drilled bulkhead

Changes...

- Most everything is Spaflex now.

- Y is now controlling both return flows.

- X, the protein skimmer, has been moved to the left.

- M, the baffles, have been moved over, and the wider baffle is one the other side now.

- There’s a backup overflow (Z and 1) now.


http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/dingleberry06/v5.jpg

[Myka]

Did you check out the Herbie silent overflows? Your overflows are going to be VERY noisy.

[Megalodon]

Did you check out the Herbie silent overflows? Your overflows are going to be VERY noisy.I thought I was doing it Herbie-style.

Maybe I have a misconception of what that actually is.

[Megalodon]

OK, I just did more reading on Herbie. He calls for the drain bulkheads to be further down with the standpipe going up close to the surface. But again, he has an overflow box around that. What should I do any different here?

[Myka]

The Herbies have an overflow box with TWO drainlines on each overflow. Once drain line is just a bulkhead out the bottom of the box, call it drain A. Drain B is in the same box next to Drain A, and is also a bulkhead on the bottom of the box, but Drain B has a pipe on it so that it is several inches taller than Drain A. Drain A has a gate valve on it to constrict the flow so that the water in the box remains a couple inches above drain A's bulkhead, so there is NO air in Drain A drain line. Drain B doesn't have any valves on it. Now, eventually Drain A will clog or partially clog which will back the water up so it raises in the box. When it gets high enough the water will start going down Drain B along with a bunch of air as it "sucks". It will happily run this way until there is a point in which Drain B also gets clogged, but this won't happen because Drain B will be really noisy. This is your alert that Drain A has clogged, and needs maintenance.

Now, how's that for confusing?

Here's a pic of my tentative plumbing including the Herbie overflow. Drain A would be the green line on the right, and Drain B would be the green line on the left. On my line A there is a gate valve (the higher black thingy), and a union (the lower black thingy).
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k43/Myka82/Plumbing-1.jpg

Here's a link to the original Herbie thread on Reef Central:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=344892

[Megalodon]

So does this mean I have to silicone a glass overflow box in my tank? :(

[Myka]

Yes, but outside of the tank...external overflow box.

[Megalodon]

Yes, but outside of the tank...external overflow box.Are you sure the way I have it doesn't have the same effect? I don't know, just asking. I mean, do you really know, because I sure as heck don't. I've never had a drilled tank before.

The gate valve is adjusted so that the tank's water level goes up a bit and covers the intakes so that they don't suck up air. It'd be using the whole tank as its own great big overflow box. If the tank water ever gets too high, the third overflow, the backup, will start draining the water.

I know it would work but what I'm not sure about if it's going to be quiet enough for my liking.

If it does make a bit of noise from air getting sucked in I suppose I could always put a reverse durso on the drain in the sump.

[Myka]

Your way won't work. If you put gate valve on all three of your lines, then even if only one of them gets clogged you will have a big puddle to clean up!! The point of the Herbie is to be able to use the gate valves to throttle down the drains so there is NO AIR in the drains making them silent (the other end needs to be under water in the sump too). The second drain is for when the first one clogs up, and it will.

[mark]

It should work if I'm understanding your last drawing plus making an assumption. Plus a Herbies as not drawing air are silent.

All three of you bulkheads are drilled to the same height, and within the tank you have a 90° pointing up (assumption). The heights in the tank of B and the one on the right (connected to E) are the same, with 1 being higher than the other two. On 1 and Z you have no valve and is the backup.

Something that might take some playing. I was doing some experimenting with a Herbie in a 33g running with no overflow box, just a standpipe coming up in the corner from a 1" bulkhead in bottom of the tank. Was just using a little pump so flow was 230gph. I adjusted the valve so the water stayed at a steady height and ended up I had 2 7/8" of water above the top of the standpipe. Where the playing comes in is adjusting the standpipe so the final water level is where you want it.

[Megalodon]

Your way won't work. If you put gate valve on all three of your lines, then even if only one of them gets clogged you will have a big puddle to clean up!! The point of the Herbie is to be able to use the gate valves to throttle down the drains so there is NO AIR in the drains making them silent (the other end needs to be under water in the sump too). The second drain is for when the first one clogs up, and it will.The backup overflow doesn't have a gate valve though. And it's higher than the other two. If the first two get clogged up then the third backup overflow, unrestricted, will kick in.

[Megalodon]

It should work if I'm understanding your last drawing plus making an assumption. Plus a Herbies as not drawing air are silent.

All three of you bulkheads are drilled to the same height, and within the tank you have a 90° pointing up (assumption). The heights in the tank of B and the one on the right (connected to E) are the same, with 1 being higher than the other two. On 1 and Z you have no valve and is the backup.That is correct. The backup overflow is higher than the other two. The backup drain line also doesn't have a gate valve and it's completely unrestricted.

Something that might take some playing. I was doing some experimenting with a Herbie in a 33g running with no overflow box, just a standpipe coming up in the corner from a 1" bulkhead in bottom of the tank. Was just using a little pump so flow was 230gph. I adjusted the valve so the water stayed at a steady height and ended up I had 2 7/8" of water above the top of the standpipe. Where the playing comes in is adjusting the standpipe so the final water level is where you want it.Yeah, it will definitely take some playing with the pipe heights. I will not glue anything in place until I achieve the perfect height. And since the tank will be acting as the overflow I'm assuming that if the power goes out I'll need a larger sump to take up the additional water.

Increasing the size of my refuge and sump are in the works now. I saw some unusual tanks at Big Al's that might work. The sump will then be 25 gallons and the refuge 20. If my CorelDraw trail doesn't expire I'll try and post an updated diagram.

[Megalodon]

OK, the sump I had in mind might be too tall to be able to take the protein skimmer in and out if I needed to.

Since my sump won't be able to handle the water from the tank in the event of a power outtage, how large should my external overflows be?

[Myka]

That is correct. The backup overflow is higher than the other two. The backup drain line also doesn't have a gate valve and it's completely unrestricted.

In your drawing it looks like all your bulkheads are the same height. How are you going to get your backup overflow higher than the primary overflows without having to keep your entire tank water level much lower than the rim of the tank? You need to have quite a height difference between the backup drain and primary drain(s).

[Megalodon]

In your drawing it looks like all your bulkheads are the same height. How are you going to get your backup overflow higher than the primary overflows without having to keep your entire tank water level much lower than the rim of the tank? You need to have quite a height difference between the backup drain and primary drain(s).No, the backup overflow is higher. Regardless, I've decided to heed your advice, as the way I was going to do it would require a larger sump to take up access water in the event of a power outage.

Check out my next revision. Tell me if my overflow box sizes look OK in relation to the tank size.

[Megalodon]

OK, this will probably be my final revision...

I've added Herbie overflows and a larger refuge.

A - 3/4" overtop PVC return manifold
B - 1" bulkhead and strainer leading to external overflow box
C - 1" Herbie backup overflow drain
D - 1" Herbie drain and strainer
E - External glass overflow box
F - 1" Spaflex backup drain pipe (left)
G - 1" Spaflex drain pipe
H - 3/4" Spaflex return pipe
I - 1" Spalfex drain pipe (right)
J - 1" Spaflex backup drain pipe (right)
K - ½"gate valve teed off from return
L - ½" Spaflex refuge feed from return
M - 20-gallon glass refuge
N - refuge light
O - 1" drilled bulkhead/refuge overflow
P - 3/4" Spaflex refuge drain
Q - 3/4" Spalfex refuge backup drain
R - 20-gallon glass sump w/ large return area
S - Baffles more than 1" apart
T - Eheim 1262 return pump
U - AquaC EV-180 protein skimmer
V - Drain area with filter sock

* White pipes are dirty tank drain water

* Grey pipes are clean return water

* Pink pipes are backup only and won’t usually have water in them

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/dingleberry06/v6.jpg

[mark]

Not sure of any formula for the size of overflow box other than on RC's (here (http://reefcentral.com/calc/drain.php)) where they mention linear weir length.

Picture is of Skimmin's set up. (clearer picture here (http://216.187.96.54/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=39891&highlight=herbie)). Those boxes were handling ~1000gph each.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z89/crystalzbucket/IMG_0832.jpg

[Myka]

Ya, I'm not sure on the overflow box size either. I haven't got that far in my plans. :lol:

I don't think you'll be able to regulate the flow well enough on your drains without putting a separate gate valve on each one. Now, I'm just wondering here, but is there a reason you aren't drilling your returns?

[Megalodon]

Ya, I'm not sure on the overflow box size either. I haven't got that far in my plans. :lol:I've decided to make them 17cm long, 20cm deep, and 10cm wide.

I don't think you'll be able to regulate the flow well enough on your drains without putting a separate gate valve on each one. Now, I'm just wondering here, but is there a reason you aren't drilling your returns?I'm going to do that now too. See my next diagram. (Yes, sorry, another one, LOL.)

I'm not drilling the returns because I'm not sure if the sump will be big enough to take up the access tank water during a power failure.

[Myka]

I'm not drilling the returns because I'm not sure if the sump will be big enough to take up the access tank water during a power failure.

Gotcha! ;)