New to reefing.

[BigA]

Hi everyone!! BigA from Edmonton here. I am new to reefing and this board and I have some questions. I have recently started what will be a reef tank eventually. 29gal tank, 30x12x18. Eheim 2224 canister filter, Coralife Aqualight PC's- 130W. Hydor Koralia 1 powerhead - 400 g/h. Salinity level of 1.023.

On this past Saturday I purchased 11lbs (Couldn't afford to do more than that at the time. Will be purchasing about 20-25lbs more) of Tonga LR from the LFS. Brought it home and through it in the tank. Over the first couple of days, I watched as it turned a bright white. Haven't seen much for hitchhikers, other than a few bristleworms (I think). Now the rock is turning kinda of a rusty brown color. Not fuzzy or anything. Just turning a gross brown. Is this a problem issue? Or just part of the curing process? Any other recommendations for me as I progress?

Thanks in advance.

[angelfan]

Welcome BigA,
Sounds like your just in the curing process. As the tank stabilizes the first stage will be brown stuff EVERYWHERE but don't worry as every tank goes through this. Also the quality of the live rock will help with the wait. I don't know where you got your live rock but I think I know. Try the place that I pm'd you as it is now my source for LR and it is usually the best in the city for cost and quality. It will take a while, but with a stable system and good water quality, your coralline algae (purple stuff) will cover the rock, and even the tank walls. With any system testing is important, but it is much more so in small set-ups as things happen a lot faster, and nothing good happens fast in any tank. Don't worry though as I started with a 20gal and still have it. I think people should learn with a nano (small tank) as you learn faster, with less losses and costs. Good Luck and Happy Reefing

Greg

[BigA]

Ok. Glad to know that it is just part of the curing process. I'm looking forward to when I can put some livestock in the tank. This has been a very rewarding process so far and the best is yet to come I think. I'v already learned so much that I didn't know about when I comes to SW.

When would be a good time to put in a clean up crew? I'm thinking for it I am going to have 20-25 snails and the same number of hermits.

[Whatigot]

welcome to the board.
I would seriously consider ditching any media in the cannister filter (if you want to use it for flow, no problem) and getting a protein skimmer once you have all your LR you want.

The cannister will work great as a temporary filter, but unless you clean the media weekly you may find it causes more water quality issues than it solves.

Enjoy the cycling process, you can learn a lot about the ins and outs of your tank and it's biological balancing act by observing all of the changes you will see.

Also, look on the classifieds and see if any locals have some extra (cured) LR, it's usually anywhere from 3 to 5 bucks/Lb when you buy "used" LR and that'll save you enough to help you buy a moderate skimmer.

cheers and welcome.

[BigA]

The only media I have in the canister is a sponge. No carbon or ammo chips or anything else. As far as a skimmer goes, I have been planning on picking one up, just haven't decided on which one yet. Thanks for the info and welcome. I will keep a closer eye on the canister filter to see what happens.

[Whatigot]

I had a 36 gallon tank as my first reef and my set up was almost identical to yours.
I found that when I had a sponge or floss or anything like that in my cannister I got Algae galore and high nitrates, even after large water changes.
As soon as i took all the media out and just packed it with LR rubble, my tank became very self sustained.

only my experience and yours of course may vary.
cheers.:mrgreen:

If you're getting Algae blooms, add some snails...
It's always debatable as to when you should add the cleaners but I have had good results adding them slowly, maybe not all at once.
I also don't like hermits too much anymore, really fun to watch but expensive in their snail shell stealing mandate.

[BigA]

I might have to go pick up some rubble. That sounds like a good idea. You are right about the hermits. Their need for new shells could turn out to be an expensive propositon. Could a person buy some larger empty shells from somewhere and put those in as an alternative for the crabs? I've seen bags of shells at michael's for a couple of bucks before.

[rocketlily]

I have a 20 gal with 4 Margarita Snails, 2 Turbo Snails, 1 Emerald Crab, 2 Stripped Leg Crabs and 1 Mystery Crab (similar to the Emerald).

I almost think I have too many and do worry about them getting enough food. Becareful and start very slowly.

[ElGuappo]

I might have to go pick up some rubble. That sounds like a good idea. You are right about the hermits. Their need for new shells could turn out to be an expensive propositon. Could a person buy some larger empty shells from somewhere and put those in as an alternative for the crabs? I've seen bags of shells at michael's for a couple of bucks before.

yes these shells from mikes are fine just make sure to boil them first. i have 34 g system and in it i have 12 hermits 5 turbo snails 12 margarita snails 2 dovetail snails, the hermits have killed the margs for their shell but only happened twice. i also have a sally light foot 6 shrimp of 3 varieties, a emerald crab. i dont feed any of my inverts at all. if they can catch food when i feed the fish fine but fish poo is fine for all these suckers.

And welcome aboard

PS i would stay away from turbo snails as they are incredibly clumsy. they will knock corals all over the place. just my own experience. the mexican turbos anrt as bad.

[angelfan]

I had a 36 gallon tank as my first reef and my set up was almost identical to yours.
I found that when I had a sponge or floss or anything like that in my cannister I got Algae galore and high nitrates, even after large water changes.
As soon as i took all the media out and just packed it with LR rubble, my tank became very self sustained.

only my experience and yours of course may vary.
cheers.:mrgreen:



LR rubble only in my can filter too for 3 years and a very stable system (first reef tank) Also I found the same with floss/sponge

[Whatigot]

you can add shells toy our tank, sure.
But, hermits are really finnicky when it comes to their homes.
I have a TONNE of shells in my 72 gallon reef, like 10 per hermit of all shapes and sizes and my hermits still prefer to take the astraea and margarita shells.
I guess maybe it's something about a fresh shell versus one that is "used".

I used to think it was funny, but with snails costing between 2 and 3 bucks a piece and hermits not even being a neccessary addition to a clean up crew they have lost their humorous appeal.

[BigA]

That definitely will add up after some time. With the cost of livestock, any dollar that can be saved by not having to replenish snails is a good thing.

[ElGuappo]

i think the fresh water shells are to soft/brittle for their liking. i have some, one is currently being used but he shaped it to fit by breaking all the weak parts off.

[Myka]

I might have to go pick up some rubble. That sounds like a good idea. You are right about the hermits. Their need for new shells could turn out to be an expensive propositon. Could a person buy some larger empty shells from somewhere and put those in as an alternative for the crabs? I've seen bags of shells at michael's for a couple of bucks before.

Good idea on the rubble instead of the media in the canister. Nitrate factory (with media)!!!

When you decide on inverts, you need to decide whether you'd like hermits or snails. They don't co-exist very well as the hermits kill the snails, as they prefer escargot to algae and detritus. You can't blame them really!!

I prefer snails as hermits have other drawbacks as well. I keep Astrea, Nassarius, Cerith, Margarita, and Ring Cowries. I have mixed feelings on the Margaritas as they are a temperate species, and don't survive well in the tropical temperatures of our reefs. The higher temperatures speed up their metabolisms, and they live a much shorter life than they should. So, I feel bad putting them in my tank, but they are AWESOME algae eaters! The only reason I have them in my tank is because they were sold to me as a different species. When they die, I don't think I will replace them as I feel too cruel!

[BigA]

Good idea on the rubble instead of the media in the canister. Nitrate factory (with media)!!!

When you decide on inverts, you need to decide whether you'd like hermits or snails. They don't co-exist very well as the hermits kill the snails, as they prefer escargot to algae and detritus. You can't blame them really!!

I prefer snails as hermits have other drawbacks as well. I keep Astrea, Nassarius, Cerith, Margarita, and Ring Cowries. I have mixed feelings on the Margaritas as they are a temperate species, and don't survive well in the tropical temperatures of our reefs. The higher temperatures speed up their metabolisms, and they live a much shorter life than they should. So, I feel bad putting them in my tank, but they are AWESOME algae eaters! The only reason I have them in my tank is because they were sold to me as a different species. When they die, I don't think I will replace them as I feel too cruel!

ok. Thanks for the info on the magaita snails. Didn't know that. Is there a "rule of thumb" for how many snails to put in a tank? 1 per gallon? 1 per 5gals? Do they need to get included when I am figuring out the bioload?

[Myka]

They do add to your bioload, but not nearly as much as a fish does. There isn't really a rule. The 1 per gallon thing is a joke...they'll starve to death. Start with a couple of each type you want to try and go from there. My Astreas have been very hardy. I bought three when I first set up my 33g in Dec 06, and they're all still going strong. They are an uncommon species called Astrea caelata. To give you an idea, I have 14 snails in my 33g. I also have an Orange Lip Conch. I find my Astreas, Margaritas, and Conch do the most work. The Nassarius population rotates due to them dying off (maybe 50% per year), Cerith as well although at a lower rate (maybe 25% per year). I don't find the Nassarius do a whole lot, other than picking at uneaten fish food, but my Peppermint shrimp does just as a good a job. The Nassarius also churn the sand a bit, but I find my Conch does 10x better job of that! I won't replace my Nassarius or Cerith in the future. So here's a breakdown for you:

Orange Lip Conch - churns the sand, keeps the sand clean, cleans the lower 1 1/2" of the glass (as far as he can reach haha)

Margaritas & Astreas - I think do pretty much the same thing, which the Margaritas being a bit more efficient. They do a good job of the green & brown algaes on the glass and rocks.

Cerith - stick to the glass, and don't do a whole lot.

Nassarius - stick to the sand, and due their small size, don't do a whole lot. They do churn the sand a bit, and eat some fish food, but other critters do a better job imo.

Stomatellas - awesome algae eaters, and will reproduce in the tank. My favourites. :)

Peppermint shrimp - Pretty much attack uneaten fish food. Good scavengers. Often eat small aiptasia, but also ate my Stomatella snails. :(

Cleaner shrimp - Good scavengers, will also clean some fish of parasites.

[ElGuappo]

i do have to disagree with the choosing of snails of crabs. i have a 34 G and i have over 20 snails of 4 different types and 15 hermits of 3 different types. i have seen them hassel the snails a little but they are usually able to get away unless they fall and are overturned. i have only lost 2 margarita snails in the 9 monthes ive been set up. all were added at about the same time.

Just my opinion. i do however feed an exces of pellet food once in a while as the hermits and shrimp seem to really like it.

PS i think i have lost more hermits to hermits then snails to hermits. as the 2 billion shells in my tank arnt good enough so they fued all the time.

[Doug]

Interesting. I also never knew that about margaritas. To bad,as I find them to be a good cleaning snail, unlike so many others we buy.

[Myka]

Interesting. I also never knew that about margaritas. To bad,as I find them to be a good cleaning snail, unlike so many others we buy.

Yes, it is too bad...I think they are the best algae eating snail I have! They are very active, and you don't see them in the same place for long. I keep my tank a bit cooler than the "average" reefer does, at 77 degrees, but "temperate" is much cooler than that!

[Doug]

Yes, mine is seldom over 78.5 also. I was just going to purchase some more but may look for another now.

[Myka]

Try to find some Astrea caelata:
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k43/Myka82/Aquariums/SWTank-Jan282007002.jpg

[BigA]

Will try to get some of the snail. Still haven't decided on the hermits.

Another newbie question. Now that my live rock that I have in the tank has gone through the brown stage, it is starting to become green. a light bright green. Is this the early stages of coraline algae growth? Is it some sort of pest algae? Should I get rid of it (scrub it off) or keep it?

[Whatigot]

Patience, Patience, Patience.
The longer you let the new reef sort itself out the less manhandling it will need in the future.
I JUST finished cycling a month or so ago in one of my tanks and I was very tempted to try and speed things up by messing around with the different algae blooms and making it look nice and neat but I refrained and now the thing is crystal clear and all natural.

I DID siphon off any detritus and crap that was obviously crap during water changes and when I had a MONSTER cyano outbreak I siphoned off the stuff that was loose but other than that I completely left it to its own devices and monitered the changes in paramaters and what obvious (or not so obvious) effects those changes had in my tank.

Now I have an arsenal of knowledge specific to the microcosm I have created and one very clear, algae free reef. (anyone else find it ironic how close those two words are???free/reef).

:mrgreen:

[ElGuappo]

Agreed paitience is the key. i am new as well started my first reef whenever my ticker says and i added LS after only 2 weeks of cycling. all survived except 2 pj cards and that was due to my negligence. i stired the sand bed letting nitrates out. only a 34G so it hurt. but when my increadibly bad cyno cycle (could only rid by douing a blackout) ended my rock did go this green as well. now 3-4 monthes later mytank looks awsome.

[naesco]

Put one or two snails in your tank as that is the maximum the size of your tank will allow as there will be insufficient food for them and they will die and pollute your tank.
Many reefers think that the hermits are killing them but they starve to death and the hermits eat their remains.

Hermits are cool but will eat the tiny critters that your coral and some small fish also eat. One will do no harm though.