SPS Tank O Death

[michika]

I need some help, this is my last ditch effort at not shutting down my 28g long nano once I get my 180g up and running.

This is my tank journal (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34944) for the 28g nano.

The problem is that my tank kills SPS, and only SPS. I can keep all types of livestock with no problem, clams, fish, inverts, zoas, LPS. When I put SPS into the tank its usually fine for about a week, good polyp extension, good color, then after that I start to see no polyp extension, then bleaching, and finally RTN (which usually happens over night).

I have a theory that the cause is the glass. I used appropriate silicone, my water parameters have always been in line, and I'm not seeing anything picking at the SPS. Everything else in the tank seems normal; I have coraline growth, macro growth, etc. I use RO/DI, and have no problem algae. In short everything seems normal, but something is out enough to kill SPS and only SPS within 2-3 weeks of being placed in the tank.

Some quick details about the tank;
-Been running since Nov 07, upon my move from my previous cube ALL my SPS died, along with the bulk of my clam collection. All inverts, fish, lps, and zoas all survived.
- Parameters are as of April 15; SG 1.025, Ca 440, dKH 10, Mg 1300, Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia, and Phosphates are 0.
- No cleaners around the tank.
- Regular weekly maintenance schedule
- Running 175w MH in Luminarc reflector
- Tank is 12"x33"x18", and water height is actually 11"

I've posted this on RC and got a pile of suggestions, I explored most of them, but nothing came of any of them.

[bv_reefer]

i'm definitely tagging along this thread my blue tip acro frags were all doing great this morning ,when i came back this evening one was ghost white, totally RTN'd before my eyes, and i'm thoroughly stumped:neutral: my clam and all my other inverts & corals are doing great-

[Mik_101]

i'm definitely tagging along this thread my blue tip acro frags were all doing great this morning ,when i came back this evening one was ghost white, totally RTN'd before my eyes, and i'm thoroughly stumped:neutral: my clam and all my other inverts & corals are doing great-

Wow thats must suck. Man those were also nice frags.

[Delphinus]

Hi, I just posted in your journal thread but I'll post again in here for the sake of completeness.

I suspect something pathological in nature - either a form of boring algae (are the skeletons greenish after an RTN event? If so, it's a kind of single-cell algae that bores into the skeleton), bacteria, virus, or fungus.

If that is the case then essentially there is no solution short of running a fallow tank and hoping it eventually dies back to the point it can't come back.

It thus may be easier, emotionally, financially, practically ... to simply shut the tank down and start over. (I probably should have done so a long time ago myself, but pressed on due to having fish and other livestock that continued to do well.)

I know it's not much of a suggestion, sorry. It's just that there's really nothing obvious regarding the science that we can do (ie., check parameters, look for obvious stressors, etc.).

[Matt]

I need some help, this is my last ditch effort at not shutting down my 28g long nano once I get my 180g up and running.

This is my tank journal (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34944) for the 28g nano.

The problem is that my tank kills SPS, and only SPS. I can keep all types of livestock with no problem, clams, fish, inverts, zoas, LPS. When I put SPS into the tank its usually fine for about a week, good polyp extension, good color, then after that I start to see no polyp extension, then bleaching, and finally RTN (which usually happens over night).

I have a theory that the cause is the glass. I used appropriate silicone, my water parameters have always been in line, and I'm not seeing anything picking at the SPS. Everything else in the tank seems normal; I have coraline growth, macro growth, etc. I use RO/DI, and have no problem algae. In short everything seems normal, but something is out enough to kill SPS and only SPS within 2-3 weeks of being placed in the tank.

Some quick details about the tank;
-Been running since Nov 07, upon my move from my previous cube ALL my SPS died, along with the bulk of my clam collection. All inverts, fish, lps, and zoas all survived.
- Parameters are as of April 15; SG 1.025, Ca 440, dKH 10, Mg 1300, Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia, and Phosphates are 0.
- No cleaners around the tank.
- Regular weekly maintenance schedule
- Running 175w MH in Luminarc reflector
- Tank is 12"x33"x18", and water height is actually 11"

I've posted this on RC and got a pile of suggestions, I explored most of them, but nothing came of any of them.I read from time to time about people who simply can't keep LPS/softies/zoas in the same tank as SPS. I don't know what the issue is, though.

[Jason McK]

Catherine,
Do you have softies in the tank?
Also what kind of SPS are you loosing. Have you tried Digitata or Montipora?
Are the corals STNing ot RTNing or just never showing signs of polyp extension and then just bleaching out.
could you give us your water perameters.

J

[michika]

Skeletons are always white once they've died.

I just wish I knew why some tanks can't keep some things. For years I've been unable to keep GSP, and now I have some and its growing and spreading!

[michika]

Catherine,
Do you have softies in the tank?
Also what kind of SPS are you loosing. Have you tried Digitata or Montipora?
Are the corals STNing ot RTNing or just never showing signs of polyp extension and then just bleaching out.
could you give us your water perameters.

J

I have zoas, and no more softies. I had xenia, but gave it away. Parameters are above in the original post. Corals all start with polyp extension for about a week, and around the end of the first or second week the polyps no longer extend. Then over the course of a few days I will start to see bleached tips, and finally one evening/night they will just RTN. The RTN always happens after the MH is off. I've seen the RTN happen both with the lights in the tank completely off and with just the actinics on.

SPS that I've tried after the crash; montipora digitata, birdsnest, cap coral, cactus coral, and a few general acros.

[Myka]

I have a theory that the cause is the glass.

What makes you think this?

Where did you get your rock from? How old is the rock?

[marie]

Hi Catherine, did i read in your other thread that you are running a calcium reactor? I'm beginning to believe that some of my acro problems are tied into a new co2 bottle.
Here is a brief ( :razz: ) description of my problems

In Nov Anthony had found a good deal on a 35lb co2 bottle for me, he had it filled and brought it up (just to start the time line).
The second week of dec I treated the whole tank for red bugs and did the second treatment a week later. 2 days after the second treatment I had an outbreak of cyano and dinoflagellates. One acro RTN'd, some turned brown, one bleached and couple had issues were the tips fell apart, skeleton and all. I blamed the inteceptor treatment and started doing massive water changes.Because growth had slowed or stopped in most corals, my alk climbed a bit too high so I stopped the reactor to let levels fall back down again.
Everything started improving and I assumed it was because of all the water changes I've done. I started the reactor back up, things went down hill, growth stopped, reactor was shut off. This pattern repeated itself over and over for the next three months (I'm a slow learner).
As it stands now, for the last 2 weeks I have been using kalk and 2 part to maintain levels. I still have one millie that is stning but the other has finally started puting out the long polyp tentacles and looking kind of millie like. I have 2 corals that appear to have lost all polyps (just holes were they used to be) but the tips look healthier. The only other sps corals that were affected were 2 of my large pocillipora colonies. Every thing else was unaffected.
I have reached the point now where my cal/alk demand is climbing and I would of started the cal reactor up. It will be interesting to see how everything goes without it
I have no proof that it was the co2 but I think I will stick with dosing 2 part for now it's safer.

[michika]

I'm running the same CO2 bottle that I was running on my 24g cube since I started it. So your CO2 bottle before your dud bottle didn't cause any problems?

Rock is all years old, came from reputable sources, LFSs or came dried. The bulk of it is stuff I've had since 2004.

The glass is the only thing I can't account for. Everything in the tank aside from the display tank glass was previously in use in one of my other systems. None of my other systems had any problems with SPS. I only know part of the display tank's history, I was told it was used as a macro grow out tank and that no chemicals were used in it. Although for all I know the glass was previously used for another purpose and could have been exposed to something that may have leeched into the glass.

[fkshiu]

Have you tried running carbon? Could be alleopathy from the LPS/softies in a small tank.

As far as Marie's possible issues with CO2, the two possible issues that could be caused are a lowering of pH and then ORP as more CO2 enters your system. Having a pH controller and solenoid is the preventative measure. Running a kalk reactor or an extra effluent chamber to counteract excess CO2 is the reactive measure if problems persist.

[michika]

I run carbon 24/7, and used to run GFO 24/7 as well. I don't have that much for zoas, maybe 10-15 heads total. I have a small head of frogspawn, and a small patch of GSP.

[marie]

Have you tried running carbon? Could be alleopathy from the LPS/softies in a small tank.

As far as Marie's possible issues with CO2, the two possible issues that could be caused are a lowering of pH and then ORP as more CO2 enters your system. Having a pH controller and solenoid is the preventative measure. Running a kalk reactor or an extra effluent chamber to counteract excess CO2 is the reactive measure if problems persist.

I've been running a calcium reactor with great success up till this point. The problem was that a 10lb co2 bottle was only lasting me a few months (I was also going through 5lbs of reactor media a month) and there is no place around here to fill. The 35lb bottle was the answer to that problem.

I do have a ph controller hooked to the solenoid and I dripped kalk at night as well

[Delphinus]

I wonder if it might be the CO2 inside the bottle, if not the bottle? I've always wondered where the CO2 is coming from. If you buy CO2 from a fire extinguisher place, is it going to be the same CO2 that is used in say beverage making?

[bv_reefer]

hey tony, the acro did have a green tint to it after the RTN was finished, i'm thinking theres not much i can do about this, i've dipped them a couple times in tropic marin thinking it could possibly be AEFW's, but nothing-

[Jason McK]

I would suspect any toxin from the Glass or Co2 bottle would also effect other corals and inverts.

Mind you. Where did the glass come from when you constructed the tank? I see why you may think it was the glass.

[Jason McK]

hey tony, the acro did have a green tint to it after the RTN was finished, i'm thinking theres not much i can do about this, i've dipped them a couple times in tropic marin thinking it could possibly be AEFW's, but nothing-

bv_reefer Start your own thread. Catherine has provided a great deal of information relating to her problem while you have provided none. This is called high jacking and it's not an acceptable forum practice. Just start your own thread and everyone can concentrate on your issue. This thread is for Catherine's issue

J

[Sebae again]

If anything it would probably be something in the silicone .

[Myka]

Rock is all years old, came from reputable sources, LFSs or came dried. The bulk of it is stuff I've had since 2004.

The glass is the only thing I can't account for. Everything in the tank aside from the display tank glass was previously in use in one of my other systems. None of my other systems had any problems with SPS. I only know part of the display tank's history, I was told it was used as a macro grow out tank and that no chemicals were used in it. Although for all I know the glass was previously used for another purpose and could have been exposed to something that may have leeched into the glass.

So this rock was previously run in another system of yours I assume...? If it were my tank, especially considering it's only 24g, I would pull the rock (and sand), and replace it with different stuff from one of your other systems possibly. At this point, I think the biggest suspect would be the rock. Even if it was run in a different system before... I know you had some GHA issues in the tank previously.

I'd have a really hard time believing it was the glass. Possible...but unlikely for sure.

I would also suspect the silicone before the glass.

However, I doubt it's the glass or the silicone, as I believe if that were the issue it would affect all the corals. Honestly, I doubt it's the rock either (although that's an easy try). If I ignored all the information I know about your tank (I skimmed your journal), and was just told, "hey my softies and LPS are fine, but my SPS are dying, what's wrong?" I would immediately suspect parasites, flow, and micronutrients first. Do you know what red bugs, and AEFW look like? Have you seen them in person before? Can you test for Strontium, Iron, and Silicates? Can you take a short video clip of your tank that will show the polyps waving in the flow?

[michika]

So this rock was previously run in another system of yours I assume...? If it were my tank, especially considering it's only 24g, I would pull the rock (and sand), and replace it with different stuff from one of your other systems possibly. At this point, I think the biggest suspect would be the rock. Even if it was run in a different system before... I know you had some GHA issues in the tank previously.

I'd have a really hard time believing it was the glass. Possible...but unlikely for sure.

I would also suspect the silicone before the glass.

However, I doubt it's the glass or the silicone, as I believe if that were the issue it would affect all the corals. Honestly, I doubt it's the rock either (although that's an easy try). If I ignored all the information I know about your tank (I skimmed your journal), and was just told, "hey my softies and LPS are fine, but my SPS are dying, what's wrong?" I would immediately suspect parasites, flow, and micronutrients first. Do you know what red bugs, and AEFW look like? Have you seen them in person before? Can you test for Strontium, Iron, and Silicates? Can you take a short video clip of your tank that will show the polyps waving in the flow?

Yes I do know what AEFW and Redbugs look like. I also have a QT procedure for those things before any SPS even goes into my tank. SPS receive a dip in TMPCC, an interceptor bath, and they are inspected for flatworms.

I only have one system running at this time. All the rock that I have started out with me when I began this hobby and have moved through my various tanks, 29g, 46g, 77g, 230g, 90g, 24g, 28g. I only ever keep one system running up at once. There is no more hair algae in this system.

At this point I'm trying to find reasons not to shut down this tank permanently when my 180g goes up. The cost of switching out my rock, and a whole brandnew sand bed isn't worth it. While I would like to keep running this system, I would rather put my money into my 180g.

I don't have video capabilities, or at least I don't think my camera does. I use a Nikon D40x.

I've never tested for Strontium, Iron, or Silicates. What makes you think I should be testing them? Does something stand out about my problem that makes you think of these elements?


Where did the glass come from when you constructed the tank? I see why you may think it was the glass.

The back and side panes came from a previous tank. The front pane and overflow box were glass I had cut for me specifically for this project. I can account for the 20g sump/fug, it was my SPS QT/dipping tank on my 230g system.

Silicone was the non-anti-fungal type made by GE. Although someone recently sent me a PM letting me know that they had seen a thread where there was something wrong with the silicone itself. From what I understand anti-fungal silicone was packaged and sold as the non-anti-fungal variety. I'm still looking into this, and waiting on a link to that thread.

[Matt]

At this point, I'd be suspicious of anything that's going into the tank; CO2, reactor media, food, carbon, supplements, salt, filter socks... If I were fighting this fight, I'd take every one of those things offline, go buy small amounts new of all the things you need to add (ca, alk, food, salt). Then I think I'd try one frag for a week or two -- something you can afford to lose -- and start adding the other stuff back in, one-a-week. I really doubt it is the rock, glass or silicone (although that's a possibility).

I know a lot of this stuff has already been discussed and perhaps cleared, but (and this is only if I were patient enough to not toss a rock through the glass), that's how I'd trouibleshoot it.

[dsaundry]

I am watching this thread with great interest as I too have a similar problem. I hope you can isolate your problem and share with all. I have talked to many fellow reefer's and had similar advise. Carbon, Magnesium, too much softies, Calcium etc. I have given up on SPS as my softies are thriving and I am ok with that. I am eventually going to try an SPS only tank and hope I have better luck. The one thing I didn't notice on your thread was does your temperature fluctuate a lot or does it stay constant? It's only a theory but I am wondering on SPS if this affects them much.

[fencer]

Myka
Catherine is a very experienced reefer. enough said about that. It is strange only your SPS's are affected. I would have expected your clams to be affected too. When I saw the tank there was plenty of flow and sps polyps were waving in the current. It might be the carbon your running or phosphate media that is causing your problem. Did you try ozone yet ? What is the redox level of your tank. SPS seem to repond very well to high redox levels,

[michika]

Myka
Catherine is a very experienced reefer. enough said about that. It is strange only your SPS's are affected. I would have expected your clams to be affected too. When I saw the tank there was plenty of flow and sps polyps were waving in the current. It might be the carbon your running or phosphate media that is causing your problem. Did you try ozone yet ? What is the redox level of your tank. SPS seem to repond very well to high redox levels,

I haven't actually ventured into ozone. I've never used it before and am a bit afraid of it. I have actually ordered a ORP controller/monitor for the 180g. I should arrive today or maybe even tomorrow assuming the weather doesn't hold it up.

What should I be looking for when testing the redox level? I think I should be watching for swings, and low numbers, but is there anything else?

At this point, I'd be suspicious of anything that's going into the tank; CO2, reactor media, food, carbon, supplements, salt, filter socks...

I actually started doing that after Marie originally suggested taking my reactors offline to see if they were the causes. I purchased new media for everything, once I determined it wasn't the reactors I put them back online. I also changed salt brands, from Ocean Pro Pure back to Red Sea Coral Pro (I've had lots of success with it in the past).

I changed foods, and I went two weeks without filters socks. However when I did the filter sock test it appears (I log everything) that the SPS in the tank at the time were already in decline. Maybe I should try that again.

[BMW Rider]

I too have been having a lot of difficulty in the past few months keeping SPS. I've had several new colonies and frags RTN shortly after introduction to the tank. I've read Marie's earlier posts on the CO2 and have planned to change my Reactor return to feed into my skimmer to help burn off any residual gas.

I was also looking back at some photos of my tank from a couple years ago and was shocked to see how much it has changed, and not for the better. In looking back, I found that this all started about the time I began with the Reefresh system to try to deal with a briopsis outbreak. I have not been able to find anyone local carrying the product anymore anyway. I talked to J&l about why they dropped it, and they said they had less than favourable feedback from users. I have run out of some of the product, so I have decided to take my tank off drugs for a while to see if that helps.

I was also reading the links and info on the potassium dosing and the symptoms of low K levels. It all seems to fit what I'm experiencing as well, so it too may be a factor. I tried to find a K test kit, but so far have come up with notheing, but in the meanwhile I am trying dosing K-balance to see if thing improve.

I suspect the real answer is that it is not really any one thing, but a combination of factors. I suspect that the Reefresh system has possibly depleted my K levels. There may also be some other long term effects of the probiotics that eventually causes a decline in the system since it requires you to balance the water paramaters on a knife edge to keep it working. Also, its possible a new colony that is not aclimatized to the ultra low nutrient environment may not have the resources to deal with it when introduced. I do have one acro that has been in the tank for quite a while and is doing OK (not great though) Further, it is possible that the non-food grade CO2 has just enough impurity in it to add a final blow to an all ready vulnerable system.

I will be following this thread as well and will try to keep track of my success/failure with these steps and post the results.

[christyf5]

I vote for the silicone or something chemical in nature. I've had SPS issues myself over the last few months (or really lets face it the last few years, granted they were never any single thing). Anyway, this last one was definitely chemical in nature and resulted in STN of many frags and colonies. I'm at the point now where I think I've diluted it enough and things are turning around. However if you suspect the silicone, it will be leaching out whatever toxic chemical for quite some time before it is exhausted. I think at this point you need to realize that either you can't keep SPS in that tank or that you need to get everything out of that tank and into a different one to save yourself the headache and heartache.

Perhaps you could resilicone the tank with the proper silicone? (ie. get some more from Bow Valley)

Don't know what to suggest about the rock. I would imagine at some point it would stop leaching whatever its been sucking up (if it has been sucking up anything for that matter) however I wouldn't want to take the risk.

Oh and personally I think its good to be nervous of ozone. Less chance of buggering it up. However its not as scary as you think, you don't need all that much to get the job done, IMO, and the amount doesn't harm a thing (well nothing you don't want it to anyways :wink:). I aimed for an ORP of about 425 (although I've heard 360 is "better") using 25mg/L. Clean the probe in vinegar/water every week or it will throw your readings off.

[fencer]

A redox level of 380-400 is good. Ozone might help the problem by destroiying anything agent that is organic in nature such as hydrocarbons but not the algacide in the silicone unless it is organic in nature. You would think the carbon would eventually adsorb/absorb all the nasties. This is also true of water changes. Having said all carbon can remove good stuff as well. Maybe if you go the water change way you could supplement the water with trace elemnts too.

[untamed]

I think that the problems are viral or bacterial, combined with tank conditions which weaken the corals immunity to attack by virus or bacteria. The viruses and bacteria may be unavoidable, or they might be introduced.

My basis for this conclusion is an experience I had a couple of years ago. I transferred RTN into a tank by bringing in a "sick" coral that I was trying to save. RTN moved outward from the spot where I put the dying frag, killing SPS around it. The closer the SPS was to the frag, the faster it died.

That's my thinking, FWIW.

[michika]

While i have the monitor/controller on order, I still have to buy the ozonier itself, and its an expensive purchase. Still though maybe just getting the readings from the monitor will help turn things around.

I figure in a month maybe 6 weeks this tank will come down, and everything will go into the 180g, save for the rock and sand. I'll seed the new system with rock and sand from other trusted sources. I will also have to figure out a method to transfer my clams with as little of my current tank water as possible.

So for people who've had bad silicone or an unknown chemical in their tank how did everything react? Was it just your SPS that had problems?

This morning everything is still holding on, all the frags have color, there are four of them, and one of them has good polyp extension (this frag almost seems immune to the situation).

Can I also ask what I would see if I was seeing light burn? Is it possible that my light is too strong? Its a 175w SE MH in a luminarc reflector. I'm debating switching it out back to my badwing. I assume if it was light burn I would see bleached tips, although I'm not sure about the polyp retraction.

[michika]

I think that the problems are viral or bacterial, combined with tank conditions which weaken the corals immunity to attack by virus or bacteria. The viruses and bacteria may be unavoidable, or they might be introduced.

I take it these bacteria or viruses you are suggesting would be SPS specific in some way? Maybe just leaving the tank fallow isn't enough to kill something like this off. Would this be something that ozone may take care of?

Since I already plan to run ozone on my 180g it can't hurt to try it out on this tank. I think that might be my next step. What I'm hearing is that the issue could be one of three things; equipment/food/drygoods/etc. (I'm starting to doubt this though since I'm almost run through everything I can test), chemical contamination (silicone, the glass), or third a biological contaminant.

This (Red Sea Aquazone Plus 200mg/hr (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=OZ-RS200P)) was what we were thinking of buying for the 180g. Do you think it could be controlled enough to use it on this 28g system for a few weeks? If ozone was the solution to the problem I would buy a more appropriately sized ozonier for this system.

[Myka]

I've never tested for Strontium, Iron, or Silicates. What makes you think I should be testing them? Does something stand out about my problem that makes you think of these elements?

Silicone was the non-anti-fungal type made by GE. Although someone recently sent me a PM letting me know that they had seen a thread where there was something wrong with the silicone itself. From what I understand anti-fungal silicone was packaged and sold as the non-anti-fungal variety. I'm still looking into this, and waiting on a link to that thread.

I thought you had other tanks running, so I thought it would be easy (and cheap) for you to try changing the rock and sand out.

Corals are sensitive (and SPS are obviously more so) to both high and low readings of Strontium, Iron, Silicates, and Potassium (which I forgot to mention). I don't test for these regularly, and I don't suggest you do either, but it is something that I would check if there is someone or an LFS around that could test your water for you.

I really don't understand why people use silicone that isn't specifically meant for aquariums. What's a few bucks?

I think that the problems are viral or bacterial, combined with tank conditions which weaken the corals immunity to attack by virus or bacteria. The viruses and bacteria may be unavoidable, or they might be introduced.

I thought of this as well, but figured the more likely culprits should be questioned first. As far as whether there is SPS specific bacteria/virus, I'm no biologist, but I would assume that is quite likely. There are SPS specific parasites after all.

Can I also ask what I would see if I was seeing light burn? Is it possible that my light is too strong? Its a 175w SE MH in a luminarc reflector. I'm debating switching it out back to my badwing. I assume if it was light burn I would see bleached tips, although I'm not sure about the polyp retraction.

When I've light burned my SPS they just bleached out, but they did it very quickly. Like in a day. Once I covered them with half a dozen layers of screening and slowly acclimated them they took about 4 week to color back up. I never left it unattended though, so I don't know what they would look like if the burn wasn't stopped (by screen or w.h.y.).

I figure in a month maybe 6 weeks this tank will come down, and everything will go into the 180g, save for the rock and sand. I'll seed the new system with rock and sand from other trusted sources. I will also have to figure out a method to transfer my clams with as little of my current tank water as possible.

I would strongly suggest that you do not put any of the livestock from your nano into your 180g. I wouldn't put the rock or sand in there either. I'd be WAAAAAAAAAY too paranoid to do that. Could you imagine this battle on a 180g tank?

[michika]

I really don't understand why people use silicone that isn't specifically meant for aquariums. What's a few bucks?

I would strongly suggest that you do not put any of the livestock from your nano into your 180g. I wouldn't put the rock or sand in there either. I'd be WAAAAAAAAAY too paranoid to do that. Could you imagine this battle on a 180g tank?

Actually the silicone I used and continue to use is aquarium safe, and actually DESIGNED for use in aquariums... :confused:

If you scroll up you would know that I've already decided to not move over the rock or sand and to seed my new system from other sources. But what would you suggest I do with the fish in my system? I'm holding fish in this tank that cannot and should not stay in the system much longer. :rolleyes:

[digital-audiophile]

Could there be an unknown situation within the walls of your home? I'm sure Tony will elaborate more, but I remember reading some of his historical threads on the issues that he has had with SPS after he moved into his new house. If I recall correctly after his move, his long established tank was no longer able to sustain SPS in the new location.

As odd as this may seem you could have issues with the new tank as well?

I know, not much help but just a thought to throw out there. :)

[michika]

I don't think so, I wouldn't even know what to look for. Ideas?

[digital-audiophile]

This is the primary thread I was thinking of http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=37698&highlight=environment&page=4 , page 4 specifically Greg's comments.

It's a long shot but if you are considering the glass as a source of contamination it could be something else in your house (paint, plastic in the microwave etc.), or in proximity to your home. (gas station, cell phone tower etc.)

This would be so very hard to pin down though, but it could be along the lines of animals sensing thunderstorms, or people sensitive to telepathy and so on.

[michika]

Well we've never painted here, and while we have a microwave, its really just an expensive clock to us. Around us is all houses, no plants or gas stations or anything like that. I just don't even know how to go about testing something like that. Ideas?

[Parker]

I'd probably set-up a small frag tank. Good clean water in a brand new ten gallon tank. If they survive it rules out enviromental issues in or around your house, If they don't survive.. back to square one, but at least you have ruled out one or more possablilities

[michika]

Do you mean setting up the tank elsewhere, like at someone else's house?

[Matt]

I'd probably set-up a small frag tank. Good clean water in a brand new ten gallon tank. If they survive it rules out enviromental issues in or around your house, If they don't survive.. back to square one, but at least you have ruled out one or more possablilities
That's a good idea... cheap and cheerful, and excellent diagnostic value. Especially a great idea before there's a lot of water and [more] money in the big boy that they're building.

[Parker]

I'd set it up at your house, just to make sure it isn't your house itself (as someone else mentioned) isn't causing the problem

[michika]

I'll see what I can do to test that out. If its a 10g tank I'll still need lighting and a stand, etc. First step will be pricing it out and finding a location to set it up.

Either way if the 180g can't keep SPS, I need it up and running. I have fish that need the space. I doubt the 180g will have the same issue, you know that whole positive thinking stuff and all.

[michika]

I'd set it up at your house, just to make sure it isn't your house itself (as someone else mentioned) isn't causing the problem

My place is not that big, but do you think just in another room would be sufficient?

[Parker]

If you don't have the material lying around to start up a little frag tank I would only do it as an absolute last resort. With the setting up of your big tank you could use that as your test tank.. If all checks out then you know to avoid moving the contents of the small tank into it. If you fail to keep SPS in the big tank.. well then you didn't loose anything, but your back to square one.

[Myka]

^ Good call.

Actually the silicone I used and continue to use is aquarium safe, and actually DESIGNED for use in aquariums... :confused:

If you scroll up you would know that I've already decided to not move over the rock or sand and to seed my new system from other sources. But what would you suggest I do with the fish in my system? I'm holding fish in this tank that cannot and should not stay in the system much longer. :rolleyes:

I wasn't aware that GE puts out a slilcone specifically for aquariums. I've never seen it. I use All-Glass silicone.

I thought I read your entire thread, and I didn't see anything saying that you decided not to move your livestock over. I even went back and looked again. Oh well...not a big deal, at least I don't think so...?

Ya, that's a tough call on the fish, but I think the fish are less likely to transfer "issues" than liverock, sand, clams, and corals. Mainly because fish don't have sand or rock attached to them. Being somewhat paranoid myself though, I would likely move the fish to a quarantine tank just for a few days or a week max to kinda clean themselves off before going into the 180g.

[argan]

I would say your problems are related to the small size of the tank

[michika]

I would say your problems are related to the small size of the tank

And why would say this? I've previously kept a smaller system that was quite successful on its own.

[Pan]

Yeah i'd second that, the size is not an issue. Many, Many incredible sps tanks are smaller.

[argan]

in skimming over your tank thread, i didnt see if you have a skimmer. do you use one?

also do you not use supplements like trace elements and stront/iodide?

bad things happen quicker in small tanks in my experience. yes there are tons of nice nano tanks but JMO they seem like extra work and headaches.

[michika]

The tank journal lists the details on the skimmer and my maintenance practices.
- Yes I run a skimmer
- No I don't dose trace elements

Nanos aren't that much of a headache, this one has the same maintenance, if not less then my 300g system I previously kept.

[Chowder]

Catherine not sure if you covered this but what are the temp swings in your tank? When acclimating the corals to the light do you place the corals on the sand bed and slowly move them up into place where you want to place them?

[Jason McK]

OK 1 hour later and I'm caught up on your horror story. WOW this has been going on too long. I commend your efforts.

I'm not sure at this point I would trust your Nitrate monitor. With the algae issues you had it clearly indecated you had an issue. I'm wondering if there is just too much nutrients in the water. I think you have addresses alot of it by checking your TDS out of your RO/DI but what is still in your tank? I'm sorry I might have misses it but are you running Phosphate remover?
I know your running Carbon. Another think I read and wanted to share.
When cleaning your filter socks. I use baking soda it gets them really clean + if there is anything left it will just add alittle temporary ALK boost.

Looking at the pictures of the SPS it appears the biggest symptom of desater is the loss if the slime coat. I resently experienced this and found a combination of low Alk and high SG was the cause.

Sorry I know it's late in the game and I maybe repeating other comments.

J

[michika]

I experience very little temp swing in the tank itself, throughout the day the tank runs at about 80.3ish, and the lowest it gets to is 79.7. When the MH turn off is when I see the dip below 80.

So here is how I receive and put SPS into my tank;
- float the bag for at least an hour to get a consistent internal temperature
- take SPS out of bag and let it slime up
- Do the TMPCC dip.
- Interceptor bath in a separate system/inspect for AEFW
- Frag into the system

I've tried acclimating them two ways; first just sliming them up and putting them straight into tank water, and the second is slowly acclimating them to the tank water. I find I have a better survival rate overall if I just slime them up then toss them in.

Placement and light acclimation depends on the frag and its previous home. Usually though I place them on the outskirts of the tank, not directly under the MH, and if they flourish there then I leave them, if not they slowly over time get moved towards the center of the tank and under the MH.

As for my test kits, I use both the meters and the chemical version at least once a month to ensure they both balance with each other. I've also had my water tested by two other sources, a store and another reefer. When this first started happening I thought maybe my kits were out or something had happened to them in the move and I replaced them all in December/January.

I used to run GFO when I had hair algae but since its gone I've stopped running it 24 hours a day. It also seems to make my clams happier.

I still run carbon 24/7, I replace it everytime I do a water change, so about every two weeks. Its run a phosban reactor.

I wash my filtersocks in hot water twice to three times. I've never tried the baking soda method. How do you do it? Just put it in with them? Or do you sprinkle it on and let it sit?

As of a few hours ago my dKH reads 10, but its on the cusp of being 11, and my sg is 1.025. Ca is 420, didn't test nitrite or ammonia, and nitrate comes up as undetectable on the meter. I will do a chemical nitrate test to see what happens.

Actually this is the first time anyone, on either board, has mentioned the slime coat! Its progress!

Today when I look at the frags one is still doing fine, good polyp extension. The one that seems immune is a digi with neon green polyps. The cap is looking bleached and has lost some color, and shows 0 polyp extension. The third is a stag and I've moved it out of the direct path of the light after I saw some bleaching on the coralites. The final one is doing nothing, it never really showed any polyp extension when it went into my system, and it has a few tips which may be coloring up, or may be bleaching its hard to tell at this point since the tips are faintly colored. If I didn't know better I would say its growth.

[Myka]

The tank journal lists the details on the skimmer and my maintenance practices.

Not everyone wants to sift through the 23 (or so) pages of it though! Yeesh! I skimmed the 23 pages in about 10 minutes, and that was bad enough. :lol:

Have you tried any of these recommendations yet? Any changes?

[michika]

Actually I'm still gathering data, its only been a day and half since I posted this. I am also still waiting on the delivery of my ORP monitor so I can't do anything until I've decided on a course of action.

[Darth Wader]

Sounds like some of your sps are doing better. I'm no expert and I might be completely off but if things go downhill again I would suggest looking at your lights. Having seen your tank first hand I can say that it allot of lighting for a small tank. If you have an extra halide, or oven a different reflector (one not so good, so pretty much a downgrade) and see what happens. All your other levels and everything seem good so I would investigate the light a bit more.

[michika]

Maybe I will swap out the reflector for a week, and try that. I only like to try one thing at once though. I guess though doing a reflector swap would give me a week or two in the very least to search out other ideas.

Jason can we discuss the lack of slime a bit more? Are there any other causes?

[Matt]

Maybe I will swap out the reflector for a week, and try that. I only like to try one thing at once though. I guess though doing a reflector swap would give me a week or two in the very least to search out other ideas.

Jason can we discuss the lack of slime a bit more? Are there any other causes?You should be able to cut PAR without having to change out hardware. Maybe a bit of gauze over a few sections of the reflector?

[Jason McK]

C,
I have seen the slime coat lose in my own tank. It has occurred with High SG and again with a fist spike of ALK. Basically the coral starts to look dull and there is no polyp extension. I believe it is a recoverable situation as 4 or 5 of my corals have recovered. But others did not. The next stage tends to be tissue lose and growth of algae on the skeleton.
Unlike RTN or even STN the lack of a slime coat (IMO) indicates a slow progression of a stressed coral with 2 outcomes a return to health or death.
I don't think this helps too much with the diagnosis of what is causing it but instead leave us right where we are.
What can be stressing your corals.
We have ruled out measurable water parameters
We have ruled out chemical or other coral attack (usually kills small sections of coral)
We haven't ruled out silicone leaching
We haven't ruled out unmeasurable water parameters (contamination) but you would think it would effect everything

Light sure is a possibility. your running a 150W DE right? what is the UV is not being stopped? That would do it

J

[michika]

I have another reflector on hand so its a cheap change.

If I were to add gauze or screening over the reflector what should I do? Cover it all, or just parts of it at time?

If its light burn the I assume in a week or two I will start to see darkening of the SPS. Maybe brown out, or just a change in coloration.

[michika]

Light sure is a possibility. your running a 150W DE right? what is the UV is not being stopped? That would do it.

I'm running 1x 175w SE XM 15K MH on an icecap ballast inside a luminarc reflector, and 2x 28w actinic PCs on a PFO ballast. I've got my other reflector, a batwing handy so I'll leave my MHs off today, and this afternoon I'll switch out the reflector and try it for a couple of weeks.

How would I go about testing for other contaminants? I contacted AWT in the states and finally got a response, they can't test Canadian water as they can't ship it back to us, and we may have problems getting it to them.

Does anyone know of similar businesses in Canada?

[michika]

I wasn't aware that GE puts out a slilcone specifically for aquariums. I've never seen it. I use All-Glass silicone.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c184/KrazyKuch/DSC_0116.jpg

[Nevin]

The metal mesh used for door/window bug screens would work, less likely to burst into flames than the gauze...

Regards,
Nevin

[Jason McK]

Sorry About the mess up with your Lighting. I have not heard a lot of good things about the 14K XM bulbs. Very low Par from what I know. You may be dealing with the revers problem. Not enough light

J

[michika]

Now that would be odd if I had too little light. I have a 250w bulb and ballast for my 180 that I would consider trying, although I'm really afraid of baking my tank.

I read that about the XM bulbs, this is my last XM bulb, after hearing about the PAR problems i don't want to stick with them. On the other hand though I've been running XMs for awhile now, 400ws on my 230g and 175w on my previous cube, and actually saw a lot of growth and nice colors from them. Still though I'm looking for a new bulb for my 180g project. I'll have to visit Sanay's site to pick out my next bulb choice.

I think I've figured out my next two tests;
1) the light, downgrade the reflector for a couple of weeks. Its a cheap test to run, I don't have to spend any money.
2) ORP and Ozone, first part will be testing my ORP and then from there either purchasing a ozonier or not.

Any other steps anyone can suggest I try?

[fkshiu]

Now that would be odd if I had too little light. I have a 250w bulb and ballast for my 180 that I would consider trying, although I'm really afraid of baking my tank.

I read that about the XM bulbs, this is my last XM bulb, after hearing about the PAR problems i don't want to stick with them. On the other hand though I've been running XMs for awhile now, 400ws on my 230g and 175w on my previous cube, and actually saw a lot of growth and nice colors from them. Still though I'm looking for a new bulb for my 180g project. I'll have to visit Sanay's site to pick out my next bulb choice.

I think I've figured out my next two tests;
1) the light, downgrade the reflector for a couple of weeks. Its a cheap test to run, I don't have to spend any money.
2) ORP and Ozone, first part will be testing my ORP and then from there either purchasing a ozonier or not.

Any other steps anyone can suggest I try?


The XM 175W 15K does have sucky PAR so I think we might be onto something:

http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/tabular-lamp-data.php?Watts=175&LampManuf=XM&Lamptype=Single+Ended&LampName=105&LampNameText=XM+175W+15000K+SE+1&BallastName=Select+Ballast+Name&BallastNameText=Select+Ballast+Name&Shielded=Select+Shielded&Submit=Search

Try an Iwasaki 175W 15K, which has the best PAR out of any 175W bulb on an electronic ballast. For a magnetic ballast, go with the AB 13K.

For the record, XM bulbs vary widely in terms of PAR output. Their 15Ks generally suck regardless of wattage whereas the XM 250 10K is the PAR king.

[michika]

So I guess this begs the question about what to do now? Do I switch out the reflector and try to continue with my current bulb for a couple or weeks, or do I order a new bulb and try a new bulb with my luminarc reflector?

An update on the four pieces today;
Neon Green Digi - good; polyps out, lots of color on the side that isn't right under the reflector. Less color, and a burnt? tip on the side that is under the reflector. This frag is right on the cusp between being under the reflector and not.
Stag - Still looking bleached on the coralites, no polyps
Acro - Looking more bleached now, and this time on the top. This coral is almost directly under the MH. Still no polyps out.
Cap - Looks a bit more bleached, no polyps.

When I go back and look at my previous SPS test batches I noticed two things; 1) I placed all my SPS on the sides of the tank, and I placed them very low. I never moved them, 2) My MH bulb at the time was much older coming to the end of its lifespan.

[fkshiu]

Green digis require probably the least amount of light of any SPS IME so perhaps this is why it's still doing OK.

I'd get a new Iwasaki 15K bulb and place a small SPS frag right under it as close as possible to the surface.

[fishoholic]

The only other thing I can think of that others haven't really mentioned is to try taking out the frogspawn. I had sps in a tank that had frogspawn (as well as many other corals) and the sps started bleaching and the flesh started to fall off. I moved the sps corals to another tank that only had zoos and gsp in it and the sps made a full recovery. I don't really know for sure if the frogspawn was fighting with the sps or not, but if you have another tank the frogspawn could go into, it would be easy to rule it out.

[michika]

Well the ORP thing is out for a bit longer. I got my mail and the box with the ORP monitor is well crushed. The monitor is cracked. I've called the company and they are dealing with it.

I'm afraid to put any SPS highter, I think they actually are getting burned by my MH. I just turned my lights on for a few minutes to feed my tank, and the way things are looking, it really looks like a burn. I wish I had a camera to post photos with right now.

[Jason McK]

BTW I called Wendell at OA and he is almost certain that your Silicon is Reef Safe

He sells it on occasion

J

[michika]

Its the same stuff we got from Bow Valley for our 180g. AI used to sell it when I worked there too.

The batwing reflector is up and running, I'm taking photos before and after of the process, then I'll put my MH on for their 5.5 hour run tonight. I'll post some photos later today. I'll also try to see if I can't get some photos of the SPS.

[michika]

Some photos after the new reflector was put in

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b286/michika/P1020572.jpg

A few frag photos
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b286/michika/P1020581.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b286/michika/P1020582.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b286/michika/P1020583.jpg

[michika]

Tank seems about the same today, its not as bright that is for sure, but none of the SPS have lost any further color between yesterday morning and this afternoon. I still have at least another 6 days to go to see if this works.

[motokorth]

Hope it works out for you

[michika]

Well this final SPS experiment has failed. I was away last night when I cam back this afternoon everything looks horrible. I do not expect anything to last until Wednesday.

digi: some polyp extension, all flesh below has come off
acro: flesh is gone, its a white skeleton with a few pieces of skin
cap: white and dead
stag; some flesh, doesn't appeared to have changed in two days.

Next step is ORP & Ozone. After that this tank will be shut down when my 180g goes online in a month or so.

[Myka]

Anything new?

[michika]

SPS all died, and this tank is coming down as soon as my next system is ready for livestock. I officially mark this tank as a failure, albeit, a pretty one.

[Pan]

SPS all died, and this tank is coming down as soon as my next system is ready for livestock. I officially mark this tank as a failure, albeit, a pretty one.
Leave it in place, will make a good qt or hospital tank though. :)

[michika]

Unfortunately it has to move, it can't stay where it is. The tank has also has developed a leak... I would love to keep it around for QT, its a nice size, but I had other plans for it.

[Myka]

Bummer...

[Atomikk]

Stay strong. This will be a good learning experience. Pickup your pen and paper, and look forward to a new begining.

[Pan]

Unfortunately it has to move, it can't stay where it is. The tank has also has developed a leak... I would love to keep it around for QT, its a nice size, but I had other plans for it.
Ceremonial smashing?

[michika]

Things just keep going wrong with this tank... so I may have written non UA friendly things on the glass with my grease pencil.

Oh well I have something bigger and better on the horizon.

[Delphinus]

I hear ya. My latest last-straw is my green carpet has started stinging my brown carpet. This was the last thing I was ready to deal with at the moment. :neutral: My blasto has started receding too, lost about 40% of it all of a sudden. If it wasn't for the fish and the clams are doing OK I'd have sledgehammer'd the setup already. I might still, when the time comes. I can't take much more of this.. Good luck with the 180 it looks really good.

[michika]

Thank you, good luck to you too!