Questions about flow

[Rene]

Hi everyone. I have a couple of questions and I'm hoping someone with some expierience could help me out.

I am having a 260 gallon tank built. I am going for a natural look, so I don't want to see anything in the tank.(Powerheads, overflows, ect.) The tank will have an external overflow. I am hoping to raise softies and LPS.

I am concerend about the flow on this system. It will have two litle giant pumps providing 750 gph each to the four locline returns coming into the tank from the eurobracing.

Should I have some sort of closed loop system set up on this tank? Or something else to increase the flow? Bigger pumps?

How can I provide better flow, and still keep the equiptment invisible?

Thanks for any help!

[mark]

Thinking might be a little low even just with soft and LPS.

CL are nice but you do have the noise associated with the pumps though the smaller Reeflos (I'm using a Dart on my CL) are rather quiet. If you are thinking CL even if not using OM products look at their Pix section (http://www.oceansmotions.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=81632e802efa9adf1e4a096d362a7147) for layout ideas.

High flow PH might not be that bad though, specially if noise a concern, look at this excellent thread, (http://216.187.96.54/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26765&page=10) Nilco16 had started with a CL then moved to PH (starts around post 98), part though again if doing a CL don't go to massive on a CL pump specially if you're planning on having it in the living room (Greenspotterpuffer had similar problem).

[untamed]

I didn't want any ph's in my system, so I designed completely around CLs. I have two CLs, but each one required a big 2" intake...so maybe I traded large strainer intakes for PHs.

There are 4 outlets in the back wall...and 4 outlets on the bottom of the tank. Mostly, they are difficult to notice. In this photo, you can see:
- 1 of 4 back wall outlets on the far left
- there is one floor outlet hidden in the Xenia on the far left
- there is one floor outlet behind the rock, just below the yellow tang
- you can see a floor outlet in the left side cave below a red sponge

From the front, both intakes are hidden...but you can see the reflection of the one on the left.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r118/untamed_photos/aquarium%20views/100_0006.jpg

[Rene]

Would bigger pumps work, or should I have some inlets at the bottom of the tank?

[mark]

For a CL you need inlets from the tank below the water line either sides or bottom.

My understanding the 2 Little Giants are feed from your sump, so increasing their size, your pulling more water through your sump. Some concerns there; increased noise from overflows, splashing/bubbling where the water enters sump (some of this can be eliminated if having a Herbie), solving microbubbles back into the display.

[Rene]

The tank is currently being built so its not too late to have some more holes drilled. I want to build it right. It will be much harder to change later.

How about four inlets on the bottom of the tank set up with a 2000 gph pump on a closed loop? Plus the four locline sump returns coming into the tank from the eurobracing.

Would that be better?

[J.Lloy]

why not one hole the size of the pumps intake down low then a couple return holes higher up?

[Rene]

Besides noise, are there any downsides to a closed loop?

[mr_alberta]

Besides noise, there is extra plumbing and higher possibility of leaks.

Alternatively, you can try external waveboxes for flow like this person's tank:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f123/NgoSH0311/New%20tank%20design/Waveboxview.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f123/NgoSH0311/New%20tank%20design/overflowandwavebox.jpg

[fkshiu]

Besides noise, are there any downsides to a closed loop?

It's kinda hard to move the holes once they're drilled and because of this you have to arrange your rockwork around them. You can snake some locline around to rearrange some flow, but then it gets tricky keeping everything hidden (which is the whole point of a closed-loop over powerheads in any event).

Holes cost money to drill and it may make the tank harder to sell in the future as the majority of people looking for a used aquarium just want a glass box.

A big closed-loop pump will use more power than a few well placed powerheads like Tunzes.

Lastly, many people underestimate both the cost and amount of work involved in hooking up a closed-loop especially if you get an oceansmotions-type device. PVC parts can get expensive very quickly especially if you're incorporating various shut-off valves for ease of maintenance.

[mark]

Might be bias as having CL myself but I believe having the 4 returns and 1 supply drilled for a CL is the way to go. On mine had selected a Dart prior to build so had drilled for a 2" supply and 4-1" returns.

CL negatives
- noise only if going too wild a pump (or placing a monster pump immediately below tank)
- look of fittings in tank, but can be hidden with rockwood
- placing outlets on floor of tank might be an issue with a sand bottom
- positions are fixed, thought with fittings can adjust direct

Again look on the OM site, with planning all the negatives can be addressed.

[Rene]

Is there any way to make the powerheads less intrusive? Can they be somhow hidden? Or at least can the cords be somehow hidden?

[fkshiu]

Is there any way to make the powerheads less intrusive? Can they be somhow hidden? Or at least can the cords be somehow hidden?

Just like with a closed-loop, it all comes down to planning. These guys all have Tunze streams as part of their setups (including both superfudge and fastfish) - do they look intrusive to you?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-03/totm/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/totm/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-07/totm/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-11/totm/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-12/totm/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/totm/index.php

[mark]

Tunze has a rock you put their PH into,scroll the bottom here (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~powerheads_pumps_tunze_t urbelle_stream_kit.html), can also do a DIY

[Okguy]

Check out some of this guys builds. He has some very cool ideas on hiding CLs and power heads.

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=140

you can also use something like this

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=tz-ztsrock

just remember that the power cord will probably be visible when it leaves the tank.

HTH

Kevin

[Rene]

Those fake rock ph covers look great. Any ideas on how to hide the cord?

[Darth Wader]

I think another issue with a closed loop system compared to ph’s is the way the flow is distributed into the tank. Ph’s provide you with Tubular flow as apposed to a pump that will only provide you with laminar flow (flow in different directions apposed to straight flow). The flow that comes out of a ph will be way more comparable to the flow in the ocean. Not as big of an issue in a softy/lps tank but sill beneficial and will spread the flow way better in the tank. If I were you I would just buy a Vortech ph. That will give you enough flow combined with your return pumps, not have a cord in the tank and sill supply you with nice water movement, then if you decide to go towards an sps tank which is a likely step you will have the added benefit of a great ph. Plus cost wise, it would be comparable if not less then to drilling your tank plumbing the closed loop and adding a pump, not to mention way more power efficient.
That’s what I would recommend.
Check out the Vortech ph.
http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=wp-vortech

[Pan]

If i were going to go with a closed loop system I would look at the Red Dragon II with the ocean simulator. Or at least a variable speed pump then you can do more with it.

[CRAP! Another Hobby]

OK....just my 2 cents here...

Nobody has yet to mention the safety issue of having ph's placed in the tank. Can be a "shocking" situation if something faults and you do not have the right protection in place (GFI outlet for example).

I am a "purist" as well when it comes to tank appearance. I would rather go with a cl and a sump than have a single ph or heater in my display tank (which is the way I am planning my 90 g).

As for current...does anyone here run a SCWD cl? Is it worth it?

[Rene]

What is SCWD?

[kwirky]

I agree with you: normal powerheads take up a lot of tank realestate. But I like my new vortech. I wanted a clean look in my tiny 45g tank and a single vortech did the job. If you ran one on each side it would look cleaner than the pipes sticking out from a closed loop and then you could have wavy looking action that'll make the polyps of your LPS and softies look cool.

It's hard to directly flow from a closed loop unless you start using locline and then you're starting to get clutter in the tank again. Vortechs pretty much don't need to be pointed.

[mark]

Locline isn't needed and it also restricts flow. Easy to direct the flow from CL bulkheads using street fittings (45-90) or even make up your own with TA and elbows.

[Rene]

Those vortecs look perfect for my system. Do you think two of them with the two little giants would be enough for my 230 gal tank? Or could I get away with one of them?

[Okguy]

A SCWD is a water Switch Current Water Director

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=wm-scwd

You could hook a couple up to each Little Giant and create some nice random movement. Just make sure you make it easy to take them off and clean them when they get jammed with debris.

I try to go for 30-50 times of flow in a tank so for a 230 gallon I would aim for 6900-11500 GPH of turn over. 2 Little Giants and 2 Vortecs would be 7500 GPH. Probably enough for LPS and softies. You can always add 2 more when you are ready to try some higher flow corals :mrgreen:.

You could also think about adding a maxi-jet mod if there are dead spots at the back of the tank after everything is set up.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=wp-mpsf1600

You can hide them pretty easily and they are darn cheap.

HTH

[digital-audiophile]

The nice thing about powerheads is you can adjust the direction of flow as your tank grows. I have lockline out of my return and hate it.. to much clutter for the little flow that comes out of it. I'm going to get it out on the weekend and maybe use a couple street 90's painted black.

[Darth Wader]

I agree. Locline makes your tank look way messier then a powerhead. And if you just use 45's and 90's you are very restricted in flow direction. You could add eductors to spread it out, but I mean 2 or 3 eductors start to clutter up a tank as much as a ph. Plus like I mentioned its laminar flow as compared to turbular flow from powerheads. And I know I wouldn't want to run 3 large external pumps on a softy/lps tank?