View Full Version : Ouch, shocked !!
Ok, need some info here. I just added my new halide & reflector. I assume since its all pre wired, its grounded. When I touch it and the tank water I get zonked. I dont believe its the fixture itself. Thats what I thought at first but got zonked last night when the light was off, so assuming its because its grounded, the connection is being made.
So I must have something doing that. Which piece of equipment do I use to measure it, as making the connection between the two after unplugging a piece to see if thats it, is not my idea of a way to spend a Sunday. :lol:
I cant even believe that after 30yrs. I need now to buy "another" thing to find out what piece of crap is screwed up now. I think its time to pack this hobby in.
wetcoast
03-30-2008, 03:18 PM
A Multimeter that can be picked up at Princess auto for $9 will work wonders to see if you are drawing power. A grounding probe in this case may or may not help.
I know it doesnt help after the fact, but thick rubber gloves may help you while troubleshooting.
Thanks. I do have a ground probe but its not in the sump yet. I,m off to purchase a meter. Do I measure from the same places I get zapped, water to the reflector?
hillbillyreefer
03-30-2008, 03:48 PM
The bad part about Princess Auto is you go in looking for a $9 item and come out with $250 worth of stuff. I love that place. A multi meter should help you find the problem. I would start with the water to the reflector just to see how much voltage you have. Try from the refector to something grounded next. That way you can eliminate the new light as the source of the trouble. Probably be best to hook up your ground probe to do these tests. HTH. Good Luck, be safe.
Sounds like something is leaking in the tank, the tank is not ground and you're providing the path to ground (your lights).
Always been doubtful of just sticking in meter probes for accuracy but would have more confindence if grounding the tank, setting up a GFI powerbar and plugging in the devices one after another until they trip.
michika
03-30-2008, 03:49 PM
I'll point your thread out to Krazykuch when he wakes up. You might be able to get around this without buying a multimeter.
Cool. Thanks everyone.
Half of my equipment is on a GFI/Arc fault and the other half on a GFI circuit. None of them have tripped. I on the way to put my ground probe in.
Sounds like something is leaking in the tank, the tank is not ground and you're providing the path to ground (your lights).
Exactly my thoughts also Mark.
Zylumn
03-30-2008, 03:58 PM
You need to start by finding a spot that shows a consistent reading from a meter or ?. You then need to eliminate plugged in objects in your tank one at a time until you find your culprit. Good luck
Kevin
wetcoast
03-30-2008, 04:05 PM
May want to find out how much stray voltage is running around in the tank as well. The grounding probe if you could put it in your display tank just in the event for some reason there is breaks in the water and the sump probe doesn't affect the display. Remember, it'll be AC voltage. Try with the lights on, off, and just for fun, unplug all other components to see if you can track down the one, it may or may not be the lights. Of course try to trip it with your power bars, as well. Sounds like an annoying Sunday!
May want to find out how much stray voltage is running around in the tank as well. The grounding probe if you could put it in your display tank just in the event for some reason there is breaks in the water and the sump probe doesn't affect the display. Remember, it'll be AC voltage. Try with the lights on, off, and just for fun, unplug all other components to see if you can track down the one, it may or may not be the lights. Of course try to trip it with your power bars, as well. Sounds like an annoying Sunday!
:smile: Yea. Fun day. I put my probe in and no GFI trips and I,m not going to self test to see if the current is still there. :lol:
Waiting for Canadian Tire to open at noon.
wetcoast
03-30-2008, 04:17 PM
http://www.profilecanada.com/companydetail.cfm?company=2251268_Princess_Auto_Lt d_Brandon_MB
$9 at princess auto :)
CLINT
03-30-2008, 04:21 PM
you need my wife.She zapped herself to find out what was electrifying my tank.She was feeding and got zapped so she unplugged everything and plugged in 1 at a time till she got zapped again.Good thing I was at work while the testing was going on.It ended up being a heater in my tank.GL with it.Clint
you need my wife.She zapped herself to find out what was electrifying my tank.She was feeding and got zapped so she unplugged everything and plugged in 1 at a time till she got zapped again.Good thing I was at work while the testing was going on.It ended up being a heater in my tank.GL with it.Clint
Oww. Thats the hard way of finding it. :lol:
CLINT
03-30-2008, 04:46 PM
LOL.I know but I was at work and she was concerned about the inhabitants.So I told her the only way I knew how to fix and she played along.I still get reminded of it from time to time.Clint
He,he. My wife just asked if I found the problem yet and I said I dont know. Stick your finger in the water and touch the reflector and let me know. :lol:
I cant repeat what she said. :lol: So its off to the hardware store I go.
Cool. Thanks everyone.
Half of my equipment is on a GFI/Arc fault and the other half on a GFI circuit. None of them have tripped. I on the way to put my ground probe in.
Assuming your talking breakers here, are you sure a it's a GFI/Arc fault breaker? Never really looked into be thought these were separate devices and the functions not combined (basically a Arc fault breaker won't trip under the same conditions a GFI will).
you need my wife.She zapped herself to find out what was electrifying my tank.She was feeding and got zapped so she unplugged everything and plugged in 1 at a time till she got zapped again.Good thing I was at work while the testing was going on.It ended up being a heater in my tank.GL with it.Clint
Ya, I'd do that too. Getting zapped isn't that bad as long as it's only 120V. I'm too stubborn to travel the 40 minutes and spend the $9 to go to Princess Auto.
However, I already have a multimeter when I was trying to figure out what was going on with an alternator in a car I used to have. Now THAT zap is a good one!!! Holy wowzers!
Nine times out of ten it's a heater. I'd check that first. :)
So, went to CT. $40 digital on sale for $12. Cool. Take it home, and OH, forgot it was a digital and need a 12v battery. C,mon ma, back we go.
Now taking measures. Do I measure voltage. Around 9 v with nothing plugged. Return pump, brings it to 40v. Tunze skimmer brings it to 48v. Tunze stream pump to 72v. Thats seems to be the max. Heaters & controller change nothing.
I,m confused but then thats not hard to do. Going to get my 90g out soon. :lol:
^ That is confusing. I have no idea. That's why I'd unplug everything and plug them in one at a time until I got zapped. :lol:
^ That is confusing. I have no idea. That's why I'd unplug everything and plug them in one at a time until I got zapped. :lol:
:shocked!:
Come on Doug, it's only 120V!!! :lol:
Assuming your talking breakers here, are you sure a it's a GFI/Arc fault breaker? Never really looked into be thought these were separate devices and the functions not combined (basically a Arc fault breaker won't trip under the same conditions a GFI will).
Yes. Most new places now require them by code in bathrooms/bedrooms.
KrazyKuch
03-31-2008, 12:24 AM
I'm an electrician and I have never heard of a combo breaker...Bathrooms by code have to have a GFCI while bedrooms have to be on an ARC fault breaker....An ARC fault breaker will not trip when their is voltage leaking to ground it will only trip when their is a all of a sudden increase in current kinda of like the same way a normal breaker trips but ARC faults are much more sensitive cause they use a MCU instead of a Bi-metalic strip!
It's odd to here that with absolutly nothing plugged in that their is 9 volts in your a aquarium, I am leading to believe that the meter is faulty...check it by putting it into a recepticle to make sure that you are indeed reading 120 Volts.
Once you've had 600 Volts surge through your body, 120 volts seems like child's play!!!
Hi Kevin, Thanks for jumping in here.
My breakers say
Arc Fault
& GFCI
Breaker
Type BRAF
<--- GF Test AF--->
Anyways I,m off to check the meter. As I posted, everything seems to add its share of current.
So it reads almost 122v. Not enough out for the 9 volts. Would it sense a 9v battery in a digital thermometer?
ILIKECOUGARS
03-31-2008, 01:30 AM
GFI/ARC fault breakers, they are used in bedrooms with ensuite/bathrooms that are part of the room.
GFI/ARC fault breakers, they are used in bedrooms with ensuite/bathrooms that are part of the room.
Yes, thats where mine are for. Also in modulars, the two end bedrooms and bathroom are on one circuit, thus my office/tank room. I had a separate circuit run to anormal 15a breaker and use both. I do use a GFI on the normal circuit also.
Nothing has tripped anyways, including when I put the ground probe back in.
Update time. Lucky I can still type. :lol: Could not trace it to any one thing but a combination as I mentioned before. Both my Tunze 6080 & Hydor seem to contibute about half each of the 80v I measured. heaters and other stuff is fine.
Nothing registers with the ground probe in though and I can touch water to ground. :lol: So working on my 90g today, moving things around and finding them a home. Of course my ground probe is in the sump still, which is not part of the 90g. I touch my forehead on the reflector, {halides off}, while working in the water and WHOLLEY MACKERAL. It flashed and everything, my forehead that is. :lol:
Crap, did that liven things up. Get the meter out again. Same measures as before. Put ground probe in tank and no current. Unplug pumps, leave ground probe in, plug Tunze back in and out goes my GFI/ARC fault breaker. Plug the Tunze into the other normal circuit and alls fine. But my ground probe is still in.
And thats the story for now. Why the heck does my Tunze leak 35v? Why does the other pumps do the same? Can anyone else measure any current in their tanks, without a ground, coming from submersible pumps.
You must be afraid to go near your tank.
Measure between the reflector and a ground point, right a receptacle. Rather than your lights being the ground, they might be the leak.
Skimmerking
04-06-2008, 09:14 AM
Hey there doug just reading your post and may be you should check your GFI plug to make sure that it is grounded first off , if not its just like a normal plug..
You must be afraid to go near your tank.
You've got that right. Scaring the crap out of me.
[Measure between the reflector and a ground point, right a receptacle. Rather than your lights being the ground, they might be the leak.
Will check that today.
Hey there doug just reading your post and may be you should check your GFI plug to make sure that it is grounded first off , if not its just like a normal plug..
Yes its grounded. Both are.
banditpowdercoat
04-06-2008, 05:12 PM
Once you've had 600 Volts surge through your body, 120 volts seems like child's play!!!
That is sooo true LOL. 1500v rocks your world too, got some scars to prove that. LOL
How old are your pumps? Id be calling Tunze. 35v leakage is NOT COOL. Sounds like the case on the pump has a defect in it, expoing the windings to the water. If the GFCI tripped plugging the Tunze in when ground probe installed.
The light shade should be grounded, and you stated that you got shocked with light out as well, so I could rule the light out. I have seen instances in HO-T12 lights, where the ballast would induce 40-50V into the reflector/shade. But that was with a Magnetic ballast installed in the light, inducing a voltage into the shade, not acctually shorting or leaking. Anything that has a magnetic field, can induce electricity into metal near it.
spreerider
04-06-2008, 05:30 PM
Hey there doug just reading your post and may be you should check your GFI plug to make sure that it is grounded first off , if not its just like a normal plug
GFI only compares the current through the 'hot' wire against the current in the 'Neutral', if the current through them is different as in some current is leaking to ground, the GFI detects the difference and trips, so it actually doesnt need the ground connection to work its just safer to have it properly grounded as this will reduce the shock risk for a person handling the device.
120 or less is not kids play when its your forehead thats sparking. :lol:
Aquattro
04-06-2008, 07:20 PM
120 or less is not kids play when its your forehead thats sparking. :lol:
Doug, I know this all serious and stuff, but I just can't help laughing my a$$ off !! Maybe you need rubber gloves and a rubber hat!
Toxik
04-06-2008, 08:42 PM
When checking for stray voltage with a volt meter, where do you put the probes. In the water? I've never had to do this but am still curious of the procedure.
Doug, I know this all serious and stuff, but I just can't help laughing my a$$ off !! Maybe you need rubber gloves and a rubber hat!
:robot: Thats me if it gets me again. :lol!:
When checking for stray voltage with a volt meter, where do you put the probes. In the water? I've never had to do this but am still curious of the procedure.
I started out, {because it was the grounded pendant and water contact that got me}, with a measure from the pendant, {red probe} to the water [black probe, common}. When the ground probe was installed, I dont get a reading now.
Unless you forget the ground is out and you're forehead arcs across to the pendant. :surprise:
Hi Kevin, Thanks for jumping in here.
My breakers say
Arc Fault
& GFCI
Breaker
Type BRAF
<--- GF Test AF--->
Anyways I,m off to check the meter. As I posted, everything seems to add its share of current.
So it reads almost 122v. Not enough out for the 9 volts. Would it sense a 9v battery in a digital thermometer?
Just to clarify that up.
Update.
The leakage from the stream pump seems to have been a major part of my problem as it wont run on a GFI / grounded circuit. Ordered a new motor block for it. Its runs flawless for 5 yrs. after getting the new impeller assembly, so cant complain.
Good to know you finally got it pin pointed!
Delphinus
04-24-2008, 05:11 PM
Totally missed this thread. Wow, that's some (mis)adventures.
Soooo.. I'm still a little confused though. Was the Tunze not running on a GFCI originally?
Is the Korallia also leaking voltage?
Now you have me wanting to try measuring stuff with my tanks. I don't know if my forehead can stand to lose much more hair though. So if you can find a source for a rubber hat please let me know. :lol: My two year old has finally clued into the bald thing. He says to me "Where hair daddy? Where hair?" ... "Kiddo, I ask myself that everyday. Every... day... "....
It was on a non GFI Tony. This time, as I was moving stuff back to the 90g when it zonked my head. Thats also why my ground probe was out. No voltage with the probe in. On the cube, the Tunze was plugged in the same place, {see below for why}, and my ground probe was not installed yet, for whatever reason. And its a good thing I dont have any hair there, as it likely would have ignited . :lol:
I have to measure the Hydor again to see.
So here the thing. I have always kept one pump isolated from GFI plugs, as a last resort to circulate the tank. Plus I have two different GFI circuits on my tank. I picked the Tunze because its the best quality pump I have and figured the last one to leak. As much as I need heat, I wont use a heater non GFI or any of my cheaper equipment.
My halides are on the GFI only circuit as they trip the arc fault breaker on the other one. I,m going to now purchase a 3rd. GFI and have everything on one but three different circuits.
Perhaps just something with my particular Tunze. I still have complete faith in them and with the new motor, hope to run it another 5-10 yrs. :D
spreerider
04-25-2008, 12:43 AM
you can get voltage in the water without a actual leak, the AC current in the motors can induce a voltage in metal equipment that is within the electric field surrounding the motor. i would check to see if the pumps are close to a motor or if your ballast is close to metal in the tank.
the reason an arc fault trips on a MH is that the MH is an arc in the tube, some larger CF's can also trip arc faults, this can be a problem if you want to use energy efficient bulbs in your bedroom.
you can get voltage in the water without a actual leak, the AC current in the motors can induce a voltage in metal equipment that is within the electric field surrounding the motor. i would check to see if the pumps are close to a motor or if your ballast is close to metal in the tank.
Understand what you're saying but dont follow the last part. What type of motor would the pumps be close to, exept their own. My ballast is in the stand, under the tank.
Perhaps the voltage measure from the Tunze, is created as you say but it also wont run on a GFI.
Thanks
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