Lecture from LFS

[bassman]

Wow did I get a lecture from this store owner yesterday. We were discussing the faulty heater I purchased from him which brought us to discussing my tank temperature.
When I told him I was trying to maintain 79-80 degress he went right off on me. Basically telling me I was an idiot and that anything above 75 will cause my corals to bleach and that my fish won't live near as long.

Eventually I had to tell him that I didn't want to sit and argue with him on the phone about it, we just didn't agree and I wanted to research more first.

He told me that he has numerous reef tanks, one of which he hasn't touched in 8 years, including feeding the fish. No water changes at all, nothing except dosing. The fish eat the algae and pods in the tank.
He seems to know what he is talking about, he started his first reef at 13 yrs of age and it's still running at his mom's house. I think it is the tank he hasn't touched in 8 yrs. He says he is always adjusting parameters to study the affects and 75 degress is the temperature that delivers the best results, in color, longevity, reproduction and growth.

I know I haven't been at this long, but everything I have read has lead me to believe that 77-81 degress is considered safe. He was arguing that we are trying to match the ocean. Which according to him never gets above 75, not any ocean he's been in anyways, and he tests.

Of course I would like some clarification on this, if possible. LOL I know everyone has a difference of opinion. I just want to make sure that I am not running my system too hot and causing my corals to bleach. I just started my system and my corals are all new to me so I don't know exactly what color they should be. Everything seems healthy and appears to be growing at this point.

My tank is LPS dominant with 3 little SPS frags.


Thanks!

[michika]

77-81 is fine! I've kept SPS at those temperatures for a few years with no problems like he has cited. You can take a look at Wet Web Media, or a few recent polls for ideas on where most people keep their tanks.

[fkshiu]

Direct him to any RC Tank of the Month for a looksee.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/past.php

[Chowder]

So is he going to replace your heater? I have kept my tanks between 78-81 for the last 2 years.

[digital-audiophile]

I've always been in the 79-81 range from night to day.

But.. I guess what works for one person does not always work for the next.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

That's ridiculous. Temperatures in shallow coastal waters can soar to almost 100 degress, and get very cold at greater depths (in the 30's). There is abundant life at all levels!

[VFX]

Anybody who says 'their' way is the 'only' way shouldn't be listened to in this hobby.

.

[bassman]

So is he going to replace your heater? I have kept my tanks between 78-81 for the last 2 years.

Yes, well Aqua Medic are going to, the heater and controller.

[Delphinus]

I'd say he pretty much invalidated his position when he said he hasn't fed his fish in years.

But anyhow, for what it's worth, I'm no world-class diver by any stretch, but I did dive and snorkel in the Great Barrier Reef in 2001, and I remember vividly that the water temperature was 26 (which converts to 79F). And this was considered "cold" for most of the Aussies on the boat with us. The 2 Canadians (my wife & I) were the only fools who went into the water without wetsuits. (I mean, come on, 26C? The water in BC is, what, maybe 12C? Maybe 15C? And people swim in it all the time. Compared to that the GBR was like swimming in bathtub warm water!)

But Drew is right: temperatures fluctuate not only with geographic regions, but with depth and .. well heck ever stick your finger in a tidepool at high noon? And things live through that.

[Joe Reefer]

Anybody who says 'their' way is the 'only' way shouldn't be listened to in this hobby.

.

So true!

[bassman]

Well I guess it just goes to show ya, these little critters are very versatile and stability is still the key.

I agree with all of you, 78-81 seems to be the average and returns great results.

I just found it very funny how literally upset this guy was and would not listen when I told him that 98% of the people in forums from all over the world agree on 77-81.

Oh well, LOL

[ron101]

Borneman's Aquarium Corals has a nice listing of average and extreme temperatures on p.349. Average of all tested reefs --> 82F.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

When I was diving in Australia, I remember a lot of the reefs being above 80 degrees. We were diving in quite shallow waters but even around 30' it was still quite warm. Im not sure where he is getting his info from but I don't think its very accurate.

I keep my tank around 77 and it seems to be doing well. Sometimes at night it drops a bit to 75 but I have never seen any problems.

[Chin_Lee]

When I was diving in Australia, I remember a lot of the reefs being above 80 degrees. We were diving in quite shallow waters but even around 30' it was still quite warm. Im not sure where he is getting his info from but I don't think its very accurate.

I keep my tank around 77 and it seems to be doing well. Sometimes at night it drops a bit to 75 but I have never seen any problems.

I was in the carribeans last year and the water temp was nice hot 85. Algaes, hermits, urchins, snails on the rocky shores were soaking in the rays at a nice 88F - I was a little shocked to hear the temps but everything was healthy. Not sure how but they were.....

[jasond]

Direct him to any RC Tank of the Month for a looksee.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/past.php

Better yet, post this same thread to RC, wait about an hour, and then show the guy at the lfs the responses you get. I dare you! They will eat this right up! haha

Jason

[mark]

Anybody who says 'their' way is the 'only' way shouldn't be listened to in this hobby.

.

I'm with you here as well.

[Pier Pressure]

I do not understand what the faulty heater this guy sold you has to do with what temperature you keep your tank at. That is really none of his business, and I also agree with the above.

Ours was around 75 and we just raised it up to around 80 because that seems to be where most reefers like to keep it.

[Pan]

I keep it at 75 only because i can do so without a chiller :) I always figured 78-81 was because people couldn't. That being said I know tons of people who keep there tanks as high as 84 degrees with no ill effects whatsoever. The only thing about temps i would see being any sort of an issue would be in acclimation. from a 75-76 degree tank to an 84 degree tank...but even the lfs in calgary i would wager don't do 75. I really picked 75 because it was the first temp people agreed on when i asked...a long time ago. Stuck with it ever since. You'll be fine, I take issue with any lfs or anyone for that matter telling me sometyhing like that thouigh..offering advice is one thing...but, oh well. If your livestock is happy i'd say you are doing the right thing :)

[Lance]

We just came back from a cruise to Mexico. The ship's log book posted the water temperature daily. Because I keep a reef tank I made a note of the temp at each port of call. The warmest was Acapulco at 83F, the coolest was Cabo San Lucas at 77F. Zihuatanejo, known for great shallow water snorkeling features sea horses, urchins, puffers, angelfish, butterflies, triggers, etc. I didn't hear any of these fish complain of the heat.

[fishoholic]

We keep our tank at 79-81 usually it pretty much stays at 80, everything in our tank seems fine and has been (temp wise) for the past 2 years. Not feeding fish at all seems cruel to me. :sad:

[albert_dao]

So this is what you were asking about yesterday Stace, LOL!

[bassman]

So this is what you were asking about yesterday Stace, LOL!

You got me, LOL :mrgreen:

[Matt]

We keep our tank at 79-81 usually it pretty much stays at 80, everything in our tank seems fine and has been (temp wise) for the past 2 years. Not feeding fish at all seems cruel to me. :sad:Likely not possible to have a healthy closed ecosystem without feeding. To maintain the perfect balance (just enough nutrients to feed the algae, in turn feeding the pods and fish, in turn producing enough nutrients to feed the algae)... just about impossible to imagine. Theoretically possible, as long as none of the fish grew, but much more likely that he's been drawing down stored nutrients from some in-system bank. Also likely that he's spouting BS. In any case, if the fish are thriving after 8 years, there's not much case for cruelty.

[digital-audiophile]

I've actually cut back on my feeding a lot. I used to feed daily but now I usually feed every third day. In turn I see my tangs picking at algae more and my sixline pod hunting :)

[bassman]

In any case, if the fish are thriving after 8 years, there's not much case for cruelty.

I would agree except for what he said after telling me that he didn't feed. It went something like this....."Well I like to see how far I can push things, so if one day I see my tangs spine I might feed it for a couple of weeks."

[fishoholic]

:eek: BTW I was refering to the not feeding at all, I realize it's fine to cut back on feeding, but not to feed at all ever????!!!!! not so sure about that.

I would agree except for what he said after telling me that he didn't feed. It went something like this....."Well I like to see how far I can push things, so if one day I see my tangs spine I might feed it for a couple of weeks."

[StirCrazy]

hmmm , there is some validity in the temp thing, most surface reefs are in the high 70's to low 80's but... so many of the corals we have in our tanks are actually from deeper reefs where the temps very well could be 75 or lower. the major effect temp has between 75 and 82 is on the metabolism of the corals. most simple life forms will have a metabolism that speeds up as the temp goes up so things will happen faster, growth, death, bleaching ect.. also there was some argument years back I read about them burning them selves out faster but no one could prove this. now I know when you have certain problems with pathogens you treat then raise the temp so they live faster which means they will take in the treatment faster and hence die faster. so there is some validity there.

me, I liked 78 as a temp, but never got concerned if I went up to 84.

Steve

[marie]

Temperature : Actually quite variable, but only variable within a set range. Which for this reef can be a low of 76 to a high of 90. The factors that determine any given temperature involves :
Seasonal Fluctuations, Which for the tropics involves only two. A wet cloudy, thus cooler season, and a dry cloudless, much warmer season. On a seasonal average, I would say that during the wet season, the daily average is 80 F. While during the dry season, the daily average is 84 F. With an overall yearly average right at 82 F. Water depth and proximity to deeper water currents also greatly effect the day to day temperature swings.
In the shallow grass beds, during a lull in the tides and on a sunny day, the temperature can easily reach 90 F. On that same day, the deeper, coral reef can reach 84 F. Yet when a low tide flushes the much warmer water out into the deeper reefs, the temperature climbs quickly to 86 F. The reverse happens when a high tide brings in cooler water from the much deeper open ocean. Going from 84 F. to 80 F. in a matter of hours. Night time temperature drops usually deducts about 4 degrees from the daytime average.

This quote was taken from Chucks website who lives in the phillipines and takes daily measurements of temp, salinity ect

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/reeftour.html

[Tom R]

I have always set my heaters to a high of 78.0 F and my chiller to a low of 82.0 F.

It is not that you cannot keep your reef at 75.0 F, I just believe that you put undo stress on the occupants when you keep your temp on the low side. For example if you have Tangs I believe you will experience more symptoms of ICK at the lower temp. I also believe that your corals will grow much slower at lower temp.

However one thing have noticed in this hobby is that no two people are following the exact same practises and yet we all have certain success with what we do.

Tom R

[bv_reefer]

I've never really let mine drop under 76, but it's almost always between 77-80, and everything seems to love it at that temp, even a full day of lights won't go above 80

[PoonTang]

In the guys' defence tho mabey he is on to something. Just because we all keep our tanks a little higher doesnt mean its better. Heck just because nature does it sometimes doesnt mean its best, only acceptable. We all live in temperatures from -40 to +100, but which is best? Perhaps a slightly lower temperature will increase longevity and color at the expense of growth or whatever. Imagine where this hobby would be if no-one ever thought "outside the box" Man, i can just imagine the hoopla on RC when the guy who first suggested putting 6 inches of sand on the bottom of a reef tank, or too take out all the filters and just run a bubbly tube thinggy and throw out the foam every couple of days???? These people were thought mad in thier day.
As for never feeding his tank.....well he certainly isnt raising tangs or anthias but what about mandarins, lawnmower blennies, CBB's ? they would all get along fine without feedings.
Food for thought.

[marie]

In the guys' defence tho mabey he is on to something. Just because we all keep our tanks a little higher doesnt mean its better. Heck just because nature does it sometimes doesnt mean its best, only acceptable. We all live in temperatures from -40 to +100, but which is best? Perhaps a slightly lower temperature will increase longevity and color at the expense of growth or whatever...

The problem with that theory is if corals could thrive in lower temps then they would grow further north. California is not exactly known for its coral reefs

[fishoholic]

I would agree except for what he said after telling me that he didn't feed. It went something like this....."Well I like to see how far I can push things, so if one day I see my tangs spine I might feed it for a couple of weeks."


As for never feeding his tank.....well he certainly isnt raising tangs or anthias but what about mandarins, lawnmower blennies, CBB's ? they would all get along fine without feedings.
Food for thought.

If he had the last few fish PoonTang mentioned the it wouldn't be a big deal as long as he made sure there was pods available for them to eat. However since he's waiting to see the tang's spine before feeding, I have an issue with that.

[Matt]

If he had the last few fish PoonTang mentioned the it wouldn't be a big deal as long as he made sure there was pods available for them to eat. However since he's waiting to see the tang's spine before feeding, I have an issue with that.
As I said before, the nutrients to grow the algae, to feed the pods, to feed the fish --- has to be coming from somewhere. Is there enough breakdown from LR erosion to do that for 8 years?

[Delphinus]

Disagree that even mandarins, CBB's, and lawnmower blennies are fine without feeding. It's true that some will not be trained onto offered foods but that doesn't mean they don't do better, live longer and healthier lives, if they do get trained onto offered foods.

And Marie is right. As I mentioned in another thread, even Hawaii, which is in the tropics, being on the northern edge of the tropics has waters that are considered too cool for a lot of reef formation. There is reef, but it's not comparable to the reefs further south.

Not saying 75 isn't acceptable. It's perfectly acceptable ... but debating 75 vs 79 is like splitting hairs IMO. :)