Being careful of what we buy.

[Gools]

Not sure if this should be put in the lounge. But illegal activities in a hobby will only hurt us down the road, if they shut everything down for hobbiest.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/News/Canada/2008/03/13/4988206-sun.html

[mseepman]

Yikes...I'm not sure how his customers would ever know what was legal or not. We really rely on the stores to tell us the truth.

[Delphinus]

:eek: I don't understand, I'm totally shocked. I've always believed that Jayson was doing the right thing when it came to conducting his business.

Hopefully the allegations will prove to be false, or the result of just bungled paperwork on the part of the supplier.

I wish Jayson the best of luck through this, I'm sure this will be a very difficult time for him and his family.

[ElGuappo]

WOW the fines are pretty steep. i am sure its justified thou. hope evertything works out fot that shop and the owners.

[hillbillyreefer]

Wow. Hopefully it works out for the guy. I've wondered about situations like this. You order livestock from halfway around the world. The exporter probably doesn't speak good english. The collectors don't speak any english and are probably uneducated. They just go out and catch stuff for a few pennies so they can feed their family. Stuff gets labeled boxed up and shipped, with the appropriate documents. The importer gets it and it's not what is labeled on the box. Off to court he goes and spends his life savings defending himself for a mistake made on the other side of the world.

[Delphinus]

Actually, I have several problems with the way this article is written. This is is borderline sensationalism.

I quote:
The organisms -- which Saltwater Connection sold for as much as $200 a piece -- are protected under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora.So is it illegal to sell corals or live rock or clams or seahorses? Of course not! Just about everything we deal with in the hobby is protected under CITES. That doesn't, in and of itself, make us all worthy of going to jail.

From CITES.ORG:

Appendix I lists species that are the most endangered among CITES-listed animals and plants (see Article II, paragraph 1 (http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.shtml#II) of the Convention). They are threatened with extinction and CITES prohibits international trade in specimens of these species except when the purpose of the import is not commercial (see Article III (http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.shtml#III)), for instance for scientific research. In these exceptional cases, trade may take place provided it is authorized by the granting of both an import permit and an export permit (or re-export certificate). Additionally Article VII (http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.shtml#VII) of the Convention provides for exemptions to this prohibition and these requirements.
Appendix II lists species that are not necessarily now threatened with extinction but that may become so unless trade is closely controlled. It also includes so-called "look-alike species", i.e. species of which the specimens in trade look like those of species listed for conservation reasons (see Article II, paragraph 2 (http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.shtml#II) of the Convention). International trade in specimens of Appendix-II species may be authorized by the granting of an export permit or re-export certificate. No import permit is necessary for these species under CITES (although a permit is needed in some countries that have taken stricter measures than CITES requires). Permits or certificates should only be granted if the relevant authorities are satisfied that certain conditions are met, above all that trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species in the wild. (See Article IV (http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.shtml#IV) of the Convention)
Appendix III is a list of species included at the request of a Party that already regulates trade in the species and that needs the cooperation of other countries to prevent unsustainable or illegal exploitation (see Article II, paragraph 3 (http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.shtml#II), of the Convention). International trade in specimens of species listed in this Appendix is allowed only on presentation of the appropriate permits or certificates. (See Article V (http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.shtml#V) of the Convention)
In short, there is CITES Appendices I, II, and III. If an animal is recognized as threatened or endanagered it will (or should) be listed in one of these appendices. Unless you're a medical researcher, don't try to import anything on App I, basically, there's no way you can legally do it. App II, it is not illegal to sell. It's just illegal to import without the proper documentation.

This article is making it sound like any of the things we have in our hobby are illegal to sell .. and that simply isn't the case.

I wish the author of the article, or the editors of the newspaper, would have tried to do some rudimentary fact checking before publishing this. This article practically amounts to a smear campaign for its lack of proper details.

I'm sure that the agencies involved wouldn't move on charges had there been nothing to go on, but it sounds to me like there's a lot more to this story than what we're seeing here.

I still wish Jayson the best through all of this. I hope he's innocent. I know another person who went to jail for trying to import (into the U.S.) some plants that were App I. This is serious business, you don't mess with CITES. Jayson knows this. That's why I think there's far more to the picture than what this haphazardly written article is telling us.

[fishoholic]

Actually, I have several problems with the way this article is written. This is is borderline sensationalism.

I quote:
So is it illegal to sell corals or live rock or clams or seahorses? Of course not! Just about everything we deal with in the hobby is protected under CITES. That doesn't, in and of itself, make us all worthy of going to jail.

From CITES.ORG:
In short, there is CITES Appendices I, II, and III. If an animal is recognized as threatened or endanagered it will (or should) be listed in one of these appendices. Unless you're a medical researcher, don't try to import anything on App I, basically, there's no way you can legally do it. App II, it is not illegal to sell. It's just illegal to import without the proper documentation.

This article is making it sound like any of the things we have in our hobby are illegal to sell .. and that simply isn't the case.

I wish the author of the article, or the editors of the newspaper, would have tried to do some rudimentary fact checking before publishing this. This article practically amounts to a smear campaign for its lack of proper details.

I'm sure that the agencies involved wouldn't move on charges had there been nothing to go on, but it sounds to me like there's a lot more to this story than what we're seeing here.

I still wish Jayson the best through all of this. I hope he's innocent. I know another person who went to jail for trying to import (into the U.S.) some plants that were App I. This is serious business, you don't mess with CITES. Jayson knows this. That's why I think there's far more to the picture than what this haphazardly written article is telling us.

That's what I was thinking. I hope everything works out for him too, those fines are very steep!

[michika]

Somone should write something about CITIES and submit it to the Sun. See if they will print some clarifications.

[fencer]

I agree the article is somewhat misleading. But it also stated he did not have the proper documentation from the wholesaler. If anyone is thinking of ordering the CITES stuff must come from the exporter not you the buyer. I was told this from a person in Fish and Wildlife

[DanG]

The winnipeg sun is one step up from the national enquirer, so I'm not putting much stock in what they say.

[Snappy]

IMO Canada is very anal and really over does it when it comes to "our protection" with cites. I don't think allowing some sps or live rock into Canada is going to put the country in jeopardy. The government should worry less about "hobbiest's corals" and maybe spend more time on clamping down on the Terrorists and other illegal people they welcome into our country. What will they do with these items? Confiscate them? Dispose of them? That will go a long way to help save the so called "endangered species". :sad:
A wise man once said "too many government programs fall short and are like straightening out deck chairs on the Titanic"

[BC564]

A wise man once said "too many government programs fall short and are like straightening out deck chairs on the Titanic"

lol.....I like that...that sums it up pretty clear.

[Todd]

IMO Canada is very anal and really over does it when it comes to "our protection" with cites. I don't think allowing some sps or live rock into Canada is going to put the country in jeopardy. The government should worry less about "hobbiest's corals" and maybe spend more time on clamping down on the Terrorists and other illegal people they welcome into our country. What will they do with these items? Confiscate them? Dispose of them? That will go a long way to help save the so called "endangered species". :sad:
A wise man once said "too many government programs fall short and are like straightening out deck chairs on the Titanic"

CITES is not intended to protect the country that is importing the resource, but rather the resource itself, as cites is an international agreement. But perhaps you are right, CITES is limited in its effectiveness and coral reefs have much greater threats then the aquarium hobby; as countries have greater threats other then natural resource issues (protection).

With this in mind CITES and legislation that protect natural resources should be abandoned. This way there will be no chairs (resources) to get in the way when the ship goes down (as humanity fighting over scarce resources most certainly would).

[Okguy]

I don't know... Here is the governemnt statement (without the newpapers spin).

http://www.ec.gc.ca/default.asp?lang=En&n=714D9AAE-1&news=01BCAA43-4E8F-46EA-B640-C045DC876E8D

14 charges sounds pretty serious to me... Including "Four charges were laid for allegedly providing false or misleading information with respect to the imports, and for providing false or misleading statements to an officer."

[michika]

When you follow the link, you have to scroll down after you choose your language of preference to get to the link.

[Delphinus]

I saw that too.

I still have the same issues though with the news articles. For the most part, they're making it sound like it's illegal to sell any of this stuff ... and people who don't know any better will think ill of the hobby in general. Whatever the outcome of this, it's a serious blow to the reputation of our hobby. :(

[Okguy]

sorry updated!

[Pan]

20,000 lbs of liverock with no permit is a pretty big deal.

[ElGuappo]

its to bad the dont add the genis and species of anything. makes me think that all seahorses are illegal. ETC

[kari]

Personally, I don't believe anything I read in the Sun. They seem to be after catchy headlines and many articles contain errors and inaccuracies. One of the Sun's features includes a semi naked chick:lol: That alone describes the quality of the newspaper.

[Pan]

Personally, I don't believe anything I read in the Sun. They seem to be after catchy headlines and many articles contain errors and inaccuracies. One of the Sun's features includes a semi naked chick:lol: That alone describes the quality of the newspaper.
Yeah I second that, If you look how newspapers run their ads you release who they are geared to. Hence all the car ads and sports in the sun...along with the girl. Newspapers are run to what their advertisers want, hence the ability for long term advertisers to affect stories and content...hmm..

They are females...though i guess if you pose for a newspaper you could be called a chick :)

I hope for Jayson's sake it turns out to be a clerical error and he wasn't misleading investigators on purpose, if that is in fact what happened. Be a black stain on the whole industry unfortunately.

[Ephraim]

The weekly world news features a partly naked woman, are you attacking thier integrity as well?

[hillbillyreefer]

The slanted reporting is nothing new. The media will tell a story about someone caught with an automatic firearm and 500 rounds of ammunition. Turns out the firearm was a semi auto Mossberg .22 (lower quality) and the ammo was a Federal Value Pack (common amount) with 550 rounds. Both available at any Canadian Tire or Walmart. The person caught was a dangerous rancher out popping gophers. Happens everyday, but who wants to read about a rancher shooting gophers when you can imagine something far worse. Nothing in the media is the truth it`s all spun to the editors and owners sense of values. The best part about the internet is you can get on it and begin to see through the lies in the mainstream media.

What I`m saying is an agency of the goverment charged someone with something. They then skewed the story to the media, the media further skewed it to the public. Now the guy has been convicted in the court of public opinion, and by some of his peers on here, pretty sad really. I haven`t heard a word from him or his lawyers. Seems pretty one sided to me. I`ve never met the guy and assume he`s done nothing wrong,he just made someone mad and they brought the wrath of the government down on him.

Has there been a defense fund set up for him(question mark, kids wrecked keyboard).

It`s going to be a long battle.

Bring on the flames.

[Zylumn]

One of the Sun's features includes a semi naked chick:

OK so how many pound of live rock did this person import????

[Skimmerking]

wow well I can actually say that I have know Jayson for 7 years now and buy many thigns from Jayson. this guy is a amazing person, And has a wealth of knowledge of what he is bringing in. I think that the paper should better expalin them selves more on what the CITIES actually means, alot of the customs people are not really in the know of what should be brought in and what shouldnt be brought in. I know for a fact that Jayson does his homework, and looking at his store you see nothing but proper tanks livestocks and great deals to help us out.

His store runn all proper equipment and its ran to a full A Plus. its a shame that hs is getting riped with this

I wish you the best of luck Jayson. hang in there and time will sort out this mess...

mike

[ElGuappo]

Well lets face it the only reason anyone buys the sun is because of the sports section. its the best in the city and YES there is a scantraly clad woman within its pages. but did you know these women dont get paid they actually have to pay to get thier pic in the paper?

[saltcreep]

Don't just blame the messenger here. Yes, they got information wrong which taints the story. However, don't lose sight of the fact that 9500 kg of product translates into upwards of 400 boxes of product. I would assume that this amount of product was in more than a single shipment.This appears to be more than a clerical error, especially in light of the fact that in the EC press release, it was stated that the product was imported without any permits.

I would also like to state that Jayson and SWC are innocent until proven guilty. At least he will have his day in court.