Woops dkh & Kent Superbuffer

[Justin]

Well I set up a new tank a couple weeks back. Everything was fine with the basic water parameters, ph 8.0 dKH 8. I wanted to jump the pH up a little, so I used some of the stuff I use for my african cichlids. What I used was Sodium Bicarbonate. Did a couple teaspoons. Low and behold 24 hours later the ph was down to 7.8. I was like WTF. So I went and got some Kent Superbuffer dKH from work, did the recomended dosage. 24 hours later WTF. The pH was 7.6!! So I thought I screwed something up. So I went and added another dosage of the Kent superbuffer. Came home from work today, and all over the walls of the tank is this white deposit, I am assuming is chealated calcium, but I have no idea. It is on everything and I scraped some off with a razor, it's hard as a rock. Within 2 hours it's already redeposited. It;s now all over in the water column as well. WTF happened and how do I fix it? The PH is down to 7.5 and the dKH is over 30. Thanks guys & gals!

Justin

[Aquattro]

water change ....big water change :D
Try posting this to the Chemistry forum on RC...Randy will fix you up!!

[Justin]

I am prepping water for a 50% change already, should let it sit a few more days though. I posted on RC, thanks for the link! How big of a water change were you thinking?

[Aquattro]

Justin, do 25% and see where it puts you. And you don't need to let the water mix for days. Once the salt is dissolved, away you go!
In the future, dose your buffer and wait 24 hours before re-dosing.

You should also check the Ca levels now that it's growing on your glass.

[Dorkel Marine 1]

Brad when you say "dose the buffer", what exactly do you mean. I'm interested because soon I will be testing for alk and wanting to raise my alk and calcium levels if needed.
Thanks in advance

George

[Justin]

I don't have a calcium test kit. I gave mine to my cousin. You think it;s calcium on the glass? What would cause it to come out of the water and onto the glass? I have not added any calcium. I have stupid high alk, like I said over 30 drops and I stopped testing. Any ideas why the PH is crashing? I am wondering if I should not just reset the tank in total..

[Aquattro]

Justin, the calcium is forced out by the stupid high alkalinity. When one goes way up, the other will come way down. You'll get used to that in time and figure how to balance it.
You need to get your Ca kit back, or take a sample to the lfs. A good water change and some time will smooth everything out. Ensure you're SG is @ 1.026.
It's 12:30am so I'm not going to start typing chem equations, Randy on RC will have them all pre-typed. At the top of the chem forum is a bunch of links to chem related articles by Randy and Craig Bingman....they will tell you exactly why your pH dropped. Do a water change, read some chem, and then decide what to do.

Dorkel, all I mean is that if your adding a alk buffer, wait a good amount of time before trying to get an accurate measurement.

For both of you, probably best to use one of the 2 part solutions, this will keep everything balanced.

[Dorkel Marine 1]

Thanks Brad. I'd be interested what you think about keeping an alk balance in 50 gallons of water. And and also calcium balances. I will have two 27 gal. tanks connected together very soon. I'll be havin only softies as upgrading my lite will not be for awhile. I have 2 watts per gal of lite. I'm only planning on getting maybe some type of bubble coral, frogspawn any softie thats comfy with my lite level. Ok I'm getting of track. I'm off to check out RC. Also what about adding kalk. I was reading a little and have posted some and people have said it is a great way to maintain alk levels. Anyway thanks in advance Brad. I appreciate your input on posts and your matter of fact answers not to mention your humor.

Again thanks.

George and family

[Aquattro]

George, the first thing you'll want to do is determine your consumption levels. Measure your alk and retest 24 hours later. This tells you your daily alk consumption. It also tells you Ca since Ca and alk tend to move in a ratio. 1mEq/l change in alk will effect a 20ppm change in Ca. If you have a couple of euphylia (hammer, frogspawn) and softies (they use Ca too, btw), you most likely will not need to use kalk. If you do use it, don't mix it full strength. This will just end up as deposits of white spots all over your glass.
Your best bet would be to buy large bottles of your favorite 2 part solution and dose that. Once you determine your consumption, it's simple math to determine what dosage to use. Once you have some numbers, it might turn out that kalk might be an option. But until you know how much alk you need, you can't decide how to add it (economically speaking).

[Justin]

Thanks for the advise. I read through a few articles at the top, and then a few more that Randy told me to read through. I figured out what's up with the alk/ca levels, but I am still not sure what caused the pH drop before all of this. However, I should have added apH raising agent that does not effect alk, but my mistake! I am thinking I may just reset the whole system, as I am having a very hard time getting the calcium off the glass. I could do it, but it would just go back into the water column, and it's on the silicone as well. My only other option is to wait and see if lowering the alk, which is going to take atleast 3 (if not more) 50% water changes will bring the ca back into solution. I think it just may be easier to reset the system, and a whole lot less water. What do you think?

[Aquattro]

Justin, pH drops because of the introduction of an acid. Acid can come from CO2 (carbonic acid), decaying matter (hummic and tannic acids) and animal wastes (ammonia). Nitric acid is also a product of nitrification, so in reality, your pH is constantly dropping. What you have in your favor is alkalinity; alkalinity buffers (hence the term buffer for alk products) the drop in pH by (very simply) donating an OH (hydroxide) molecule which binds with a h+(which is an acid) and effectively neutralizing it. The reason we as aquarists keep our alk so much higher than natural seawater is because we have so much more acid to "buffer".
So when you have a high alk, you tend to have a more stable pH. Of course if you have a high CO2 concentration in your home, or you spill vinegar in your tank, you may still see a drop in pH. Simple, huh?

[Justin]

Brad,

I understand what your saying, but it does not explain why in 24 hours I had a 0.2 drop in ph despite high alkalinity. Then I added buffer, and it dropped even more. I understand why I have calcium perciptation on my galss, but it still does not explain why my pH was dropping .2 a day. I have found tons of information on how the alk/ca relationship works, and understand that as well. I also keep african cichlids (tropheus) and am familiar with maintaining a high ph/dKH. Never in any of those tanks have I ever had a sharp drop in pH. It's really weird. The tank was plugging along just fine, I didn't add anything, or change anything and all of a sudden it started falling off huge. It's not a high co2 in my house thing because I have other tanks in my room as well, and they do fine. I am also very familiar with the carbonic acid cycle, and all my ph measurements were taken at night, before the lights went out. When pH is at its highest. Also, there is very little in the tank as far a co2 producing things go. I am baffled. Any ideas?

[Aquattro]

Justin, I believe the buffers dropped the pH over the short term, but I'll have to dig to find out exactly why.

[Justin]

I was just reading a million and a half posts ect, and on the topic of Nitric acid, I have one eel, about 5" long, 2 cleaner shrimp, 2 hermit crabs, 5 zerba nerite snails and some snails that came on the live rock. I have a 48gallon tank, with 28 lbs of premium fiji live rock that has been in a tank since late fall. I am also running a Rena Filstar Xp2 eternal canister filter rated for a 75g tank. The filter was established on a tank before I used it on mine. I cleaned it really good before I used it without destroying the bacteria in the biological media. My ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are all at zero. I have no skimmer, and bought an overflow box I was going to put the intake for the filter into, then run a skimmer inline with the output of the filter. I am going to go get a skimmer at Ocean on Sunday.


I just prepared 26gallons of salt, it is 1.025 sg, 8.3 pH, alk 11. Temp is one degree farenhiet out of my tank. What I am thinking about doing is putting everything into the garbage can, ripping the tank down, cleaning it to hell and putting it back together. I would obivously age another garbage can of water to give me roughly 50gallon of water ready to go when I pulled it down. I will set up the other bucket today, and rip the tank down Friday I guess.... If I decided to go that way.

[Aquattro]

Wow, a guy named foreverlearning has the exact same problem on RC :D
As Randy mentioned to him, pH will drop slightly with the addition of a bicarb based buffer. I've asked Randy to explain why.

[Justin]

That's me! I did add the bicarb and that lowered the pH. That is when I went and got Kent superbuffer dKh and that only made things worse.

[Aquattro]

Justin, you can do that, but remember, you don't need to let the water wiat days.
Also, and this is just my opinion, you might sell the canister filter and buy more rock with the money. The canister will promote nitrates which your rock has to work add reducing.

[Justin]

I was planning on turfing the filter when I got enough rock in there to do the job. I was also planning on putting a sump on there, or possibly a refigium, but that is more something I will do over the summer. My goal with this tank right now is to do some centrophyge, and I do think they will rip up the rock good, so I am not too too anxious to turf the filter yet. I am rethinking this whole idea tho in light of all this madness tho :x

[Justin]

How come the water does not need to wait? I have reqd a few books and all of them say to let the water age before you use it. That's what I hear a lot as well. Recently I hav read The consiencious Marine Aquarist, Natural Reef Aquariums(Tullock) and Corals by Borneman. Everywhere says let it sit before you use it. Is there some special circumstance here? Thanks for everything Brad!

[Aquattro]

Justin, that is "old knowledge" that has been disproved. Craig Bingman has an article on mixing salt....I'll dig it up. Can you tell me where in Eric's book it says that? I'm surprised he would......

[Justin]

Really. I will look it up. It may not say 100% in there that it needs to be premixxed, but I am 100% for sure that it didn't say it didn't need to be.

[Aquattro]

How to mix seawater in 5 minutes

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/sep/bio/default.asp

[Justin]

That's a good link, thanks Brad. The reason I always let my saltwater age in a bucket is to allow me time to stabilize the ph/alk ect. I am being super paranoid in light of recent events. Do you think a weak solution of water/vinegar would be ok to remove the deposits on the glass?

Thanks!

[Justin]

Well I redid the entire tank, with the overflow box, looks 500% better. I did about a 90% watercahnge or more, the pH is still slowly going down. I am gonna let it settle in for a few hours and will keep a close eye on it. Anything I can do temporarily to make the transition easier for the creatures in the tank? Any ideas as to why it;s still going down?

[Aquattro]

Justin, how are you testing pH?

[Justin]

PinPoint pH monitor, properly calibrated. I use it between 3 tanks.

[Canadian Man]

Justin,
Sorry to step in here.

I have a ph monitor and I don't take it as gospel.
How do your animals look?
If the look good or ok or great I think you may want to take a step back from the tank and stop putting additives to fix problems that you may not have. If things are ok and animals are fine leave things be.

[Canadian Man]

one more point. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) will lower your ph but should only for a few minutes to let's say Max an hour.

I use Baking Soda only, to make up for any deficinceys in my alk level and if I have my ph monitor on and I add 1 tbls to my system (total watervolume of about 150g). I can watch my ph drop rapidly to about 7.9 from 8.2. This last for maybe 2 to 3 minutes at most and then the ph is back to it's original 8.2.

cheers

[Justin]

I have not added anything to the water at all. So far I had 50gallons of water in garbage cans, pH 8.28 dKh 10 1.025 sg average. I added the water to the tank, replacing a min of 90% of the water. The tank originally read 1.024 sg pH 8.25 and dKh of 12. Since then, everything has stayed the same, except the pH is down to 8.05 and falling. As far the the critters, the snails hermits and cleaner shrimp are ok, and the eel is hiding, so it's hard to say how he is, but I am assuming fine. I read through a lot of articles by Randy from RC and he said anything down to 7.8 is fine. I would prefer 8.2ish but I am gonna let it go and see how far is goes down. I will pick something up tommorow that raises pH incase by the time I get home it;s really low.

[Jack]

try to find the source of the problem, if there is any... seems like if everything is fine leave it be! you will probably just stress everything out more than a small drop in ph would be to them. 90% water change, yikes :shock:

is there a big bioload? whats the tank specs? is there lots of gas exchange? you need to let us know some specs so we can help you out

[Justin]

I am trying to find the source of them problem, but I have no idea and no one seems to be familiar with this problem either.

The pH drop is small right now, but if it goes like it went last time, it;s going to drop down below 7.5 within a couple days

As far as bioload goes, there is almost no bio load. 1 small snowflake eel, around the size of an pencil, 2 small cleaner shrimp, 1 spider hermit crab, 1 blue knuckle Hermit crab, 5 Zebra Nerite Snails, some snails off the live rock. I am not worried about how they are acting, The eel came in live rock, so he's a tough little guy, but I know pH dropping below 7.5 is bad and I would like to cerrect it.

Tank specs, 48gallon tank, with single strip light - Coralife 20k bulb, Ebo Jager 150W heater, Rena Filstar XP2 External Canister Filter with Sponges, micro filtration pads, and Bio Chem Stars, running off an overflow box. 40lbs CaribSea Sea Floor Special Grade Crushed Aragonite, 28lbs Premium Fiji Liverock that's been in tank since late fall.

That's it! See anything out or the ordinary?

[Dorkel Marine 1]

:shock: I think I'll wake up and see if I'm having a nightmare.

Thanks Brad

I'll read somemore on RC. I got a good article on Water Chemistry by Randy.

Thanks for making it sound fairly simple. I'm looking forward to my first alk test. Many thanks and happy reefin :shock: :cry: 8) :roll: :x :wink: :roll: 8) 8)

[Justin]

Well this morning the lights are about to turn on and the pH is down to 7.9 :x

[Aquattro]

Put some water in a container, shake the crap out of it for a couple of minutes and remeasure the pH. Just to be sure there isn't an excess of CO2 in it.

[Canadian Man]

Well this morning my ph was down to 8.05 like normal and at night it's about 8.15 to 8.2 and I run a reverse light refugium.
So no big deal, Your animals are still alive, I presume?

[Justin]

I am gonna do that shake the water thing right now. The pH is down to 7.85ish now, that is after about 10 hours of light.

[Aquattro]

Just an FYI...when I had big problems with my pH (it went down to 7.5) it turned out to be my probe. I cleaned the probe by soaking in a 2 part cleaner for 2 days, then recalibrated it. Now it was dead on. I put it in my tank and it was 8.3. I then watched over the next 12 hours as it dropped back to 7.5. I recalibrated and tried again. Started at 8.3....ended at 8.9!!

What I would do it buy a cheep hagen pH kit and match it against your probe. Just for peace of mind.

[Justin]

Well instead of shaking the hell out of it, I put 1L of the water into a jar, and put a Rena 400 air pump on a stone into it. You cannot see water there are so many bubbles. Before air 7.91 after air 8.18. Moral of the story, I have co2 buildup. I have more flow in this tank then I do in some of my Cichlid tanks, and they don't buildup co2. So what can I do to reduce this, other then a stupid amount of water flow? I just put a powerhead in aiming at the top of the water. I am going to try to get a skimmer soon, anything else I can do? For now I will keep the filter running off the overflow box. I have absolutely no idea why the co2 is building up, so what I am going to do is have my cousin who is lisenced to serive furnaces come over and take a look at my furnace, and see if everything there is ok. I am thinking it's not. Thanks a million!

[Jack]

Glad you found out your problem!

I would try to create some surface agitation. Marine tanks have/need alot of circulation.

I'm just heading out the door but I'm sure the other guys will help you out with some suggestions. good luck

[Justin]

I have a Rio 400 aimed at the surface, as well as the canister doing 300g/h as well, think I need more agitation?

[Aquattro]

Justin, try not using the cannister. The bacteria in there could be using a lot of O2 and giving off CO2.

[Canadian Man]

Justin, try not using the cannister. The bacteria in there could be using a lot of O2 and giving off CO2.

Great point Brad!
Just to reassure you Justin, in the beginning of my tank I had (sadly enough) an eheim 2213 and a fluval 404 on the tank. After doing my rookie research I decided I had plenty of live rock and disconnected them one day. Tank didn't even flinch or miss a beat.
No spikes in any levels what so ever.

[Justin]

I have done Berlin style tanks before, but this tank, I plan to have extra bioload. I have a Small small snowflake eel right now, but I plan to add some centrophyge in a number of months. I don't know how much waste the eels is going to produce, so I worry there will not be enough rock to handle the load. What you guys think? I know the canister will be producing a certain amount of nitrate, but I am hoping I will have enough rock to de nitrify the tank. If not I will either increase water changes or build a de nitrifying filter. What ya think? As far as janitors go, I have 5 Zebra nerite Snails, a large Spider hermit crab and a really big blue knuckle hermit crab, as well as a pair of Small cleaner Shrimp. Do you think adding some more janitors and turfing the filter would do the trick? If so which ones? Thanks!

[Aquattro]

Justin, I had 2 triggers in my 75 reef and I didn't need additional filtration over the rock/dsb. The eel shouldn't be a problem.

[Justin]

The eel by it self won't be a problem, but this tank will be FOWLR. I plan to add a few more specimens, likely Centrophyge.

[Aquattro]

Justin, the dwarf angels won't add a significant amount to the bioload, unless you're adding many!!

[Justin]

Allright. I think I will grab a skimmer then turf the filter. Thanks for all the help everyone, espicially Brad!