ground faults/moisture detection and power outlets

[Quinn]

are any of you people using ground fault devices to detect moisture and/or leaks, like in a hot tub? just wondering if they're recommended or if anyone has any comments on them.

also, how many power outlets are you people using on your tanks? i'm assuming you're all using power bars, i've worked it out and i need 12 outlets! :shock:

[Canadian Man]

Hey Quinn,
I do not use a GFI on my tanks.
you also have to remember that timers take up about 2 or 3 spots on the powerbars cause their size.

[StirCrazy]

my whole tank is on two different GFI's I have been zapped befor and I like it when something stops it :shock:

Steve

[golden69_ca]

your crazy not to use one . all you have to do is go to home depot and pic up A wall socket that is gfi . they are cheap and easy to install . if you know alittle about electrical work you can have one gfi wall outlet protecting all your plugs in one room. take it from me i have been shocked with voltages from 24volt to 600volt 3 phase ( this one stoped my heart for a bit) :shock: not fun . it does not take much to kill . for the little expence that could save your life , do it .

take care

[Tau2301]

I took my GFI out after three days. I didn't like coming home to a cold dark tank.

[Canadian Man]

I took my GFI out after three days. I didn't like coming home to a cold dark tank.
That's the reason I don't run one as well. Just imagine being on holidays or just away for the day and having your gfi tripping just after you leave and comming home to everything dead.
No thanks

[reefphish]

I''m just starting to plan out my electrical set up for my sump space.

I was thinking of putting gfi on the outlets, but having seperate circuits for each plug... dont want one bad circuit to turn off everything. Is this possible?

Anybody set up a number of dedicated outlets for their tanks... what config did you come up with?

Jon, what are you planning for your reef basement setup?

cheers,

John

[Quinn]

my current plans are to add two circuits to my room for a total of three, one for the metal halides, one for all the other tank stuff (pumps, heaters...), and one for everything else (two computers, etc.). i am going to put 10 plugins enclosed in the stand itself.

how much moisture is required to trip a GFI? perhaps i should just be getting some type of alarm system rather than something that will shut off power. it's leaks onto my carpet i'm concerned about, not water getting into wiring.

[Delphinus]

Having just read through that longgggggg thread on RC on this topic ... Reefphish, your question reminds me about what Randy Holmes-Farley said about his setup.

A GCFI plug for each electrical device with a plug!!! Wow, that must be some panel he's got.

Your typical plug in has a little notch that you can cut out so that the two plugs become independent and need their own wiring. Not having looked at a GFCI backside recently, I think that even if a GFCI has the same feature, that it probably means only one plug would be GFCI since I imagine they only have the circuitry only once. So basically I think what you're asking, the answer is no -- both plugs are together.

But what you could do, is something like this. Go purchase two replacement appliance cords (you know, the molded plug on one end, bare wires on the other end). An outdoor receptable box (you can get them in PVC), and then two GFCI's. Wire up the GFCI's in the box, use the appliance cord to plug into the other receptable. Mount these new boxes in your stand, or wherever ... and presto, you've got two GFCI's out of each plug on your receptable on the wall, and you didn't even need to remove anything out of the wall.

Just a thought anyways.. I would think that having multiple GFCI's is better than one "all encompassing GFCI" for the reasons already expressed -- that it sucks to come home and find your tank has been flatlined for who knows how long. At least this way if one device trips, it only shuts off itself, and everything else gets to hum along happily.

[Canadian Man]

John,
I am planning on having 6 or so 20A outlets in the room. 2 alone would be for the lighting above the tank and the other 4 or so around the room.
I don't have any plans to include GCFI's and If I did then I would add them the way that tony mentiones.
That make the most sense to me.

[reefphish]

That article got me thinking too.

I have had a heater break in the tank and sputter away. There is just to much to loose not being protected by GFI.

Another option is to group the devices into several sets of outlets, some GFI some not depending on the "risk"factor. And ensure that heaters and pumps are split between two GFI circuits.

TeeVee, what size circuits are you adding to your board for your new plugs?

cheers,

John

[Delphinus]

my current plans are to add two circuits to my room for a total of three, one for the metal halides, one for all the other tank stuff (pumps, heaters...), and one for everything else (two computers, etc.). i am going to put 10 plugins enclosed in the stand itself.

how much moisture is required to trip a GFI? perhaps i should just be getting some type of alarm system rather than something that will shut off power. it's leaks onto my carpet i'm concerned about, not water getting into wiring.

I think we're kinda talking about two different things here.

For what you're talking about, yes, you can get a moisture alarm that will sounds if water gets on your floor.

Moisture is not going to trip a GFCI. A ground fault is what's going to trip a GFCI. What they're talking about with GFCI's, is to prevent fatal electrocution by sticking your hand into water with stray voltage .... and then you become the ground for the circuit. What happens is, and you need a ground probe for this to be complete, is that, voltage will leak into the saltwater, the grounding probe will pick this up ... and the GFCI will then click off the tank, thus hopefully preventing a bad situation (ie., a person comes along, decides to put their hand in the tank .. and ZAP!). With a GFCI, if you find your tank has been shut off, it means something tripped the GFCI. Then you have to go through the process of systematically finding out which device is giving you a problem.

As far as moisture in the air or something .... that's really a different situation. A fan can probably keep things in your stand dry. I have a fan in my 75g canopy that is on 24x7, and that seems to be enough to prevent any condensation forming on the lights and stuff.

HTH

[Canadian Man]

That makes sense to me John,
Having something like your heaters plugged into a gcfi makes sense.
I don't have much worry about other things.

Even heater though, if in your sump don't stand a large chance of being broken.

[Quinn]

ok now i'm totally lost. i sure don't want to get electrocuted, what if i throw an SWC grounding probe in there?

my dad is the one coming up with all these ideas, it's really not my fault. apparently each circuit can handle 1500w (assuming that's what you want to know).

if any of you are really electrical geniuses and feel like talking to my dad about this he'd probably appreciate the input. he did our house but he's not a pro or anything, and is basically doing this all based on his previous experience wiring up greenhouses and such (he's a professional gardener). let me know via pm.

[Delphinus]

Sorry, I didn't mean to confoozle the thread.

As far as leaks on the carpets go ... I don't know what to suggest. I'd like to say, don't worry about it, 'cuz it's going to happen anyways sooner or later. Just make sure you've got a shop vac handy, so that you're ready for it when it does happen, and then it's not so much a big deal.

But the GFCI's ... really, all it is is a safety thing. Something that shuts the system down in the event a potentially deadly situation develops.

I've never used GFCI's on my system myself. But after reading how badly some folks got electrocuted (see the whole thread at RC (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=153427) ... it is quite long unfortunately) I'm starting to rethink that idea some. My hesitation has been that I'd prefer not to have my tank go flatline in the event a single item suffers some kind of electrical fault, but the workaround for that is as Reefphish suggests, have several different GFCI's and group items according to risk category or something like that.

[Aquattro]

As far as leaks on the carpets go ... I don't know what to suggest. I'd like to say, don't worry about it, 'cuz it's going to happen anyways sooner or later. Just make sure you've got a shop vac handy,

Gotta agree with this. A shop vac is one of the most critical pieces of equipment to have with a reef tank. Water is going to end up on the floor sooner or later.
J&L sells a device called a screamer that makes noise when it gets wet...putting one of those beside the tank might prevent the tank from draining while your in the next room watching TV.

[golden69_ca]

its kind of funny if you have a gfi triping you will have a problem around your tank with equipment find the problem and fix it . i only had my gfi trip once and the reason was a bad worn out pump . so if your triping gfi find the problem and fix it before it takes you out. look at it this way would you pull out the gfi outlet in your bathroom(electrical code manditory) and replace it with a standard outlet id hope not . we all need to be safe around our tanks.

:)

[Quinn]

i'll have to go over these ideas with my dad then. shouldn't be too tough to figure something out.

i have two shop vacs, one small and one extremely huge, to the point that we used it to drain our hot tub, so i'm not too worried about that :D the parents won't be pleased if there's a spill though so i'll have to be very sneaky with the vacuum...

VRRRRRRRRRRRR "WHAT ARE YOU DOING" VRRRRRRRRRRRRR "OH JUST CLEANING UP SOME DUST" VRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR "WITH A SHOP VAC?" VRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" VRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Tau2301]

I just follow a couple of very simple rules when working on my tank. They are the same rules I use when working on my AC panel.

Only one hand in the tank/panel at any given time and wear rubber soled shoes at all time while working around my tank or AC.

This way I avoid becoming a ground for any voltage in your tank. :shock:

[StirCrazy]

I took my GFI out after three days. I didn't like coming home to a cold dark tank.

Um, woulden't have made more sence to fix the problem? If a GFI is tripping something is wrong. :roll:

as for your rules, I woulden't trust them, what if you arm brushes against a grounded reflector? the floor isn't the only ground you have to worry about. My rule for working on a AC pannel, is flip the big leaver to "off" first, then check with a meter to make sure it is off. Sorry i have seen people get blowen accross a room using the "one hand" and "on a rubber mat" method.

The only time it is "absolutly" safe to work on power is when it is off!

Steve

[Aquattro]

Steve, as I explained, just don't touch the white wire and the black wire at the same time. You can go down the stairs like that!!

[Tau2301]

Steve, as I explained, just don't touch the white wire and the black wire at the same time. You can go down the stairs like that!!

Isn't that how you make the all the lights turn off. :D

[Tau2301]

Um, woulden't have made more sence to fix the problem? If a GFI is tripping something is wrong.

I did, I removed the GFI. I still have the same equipment running off of a single circuit without a blown breaker and without any shocks to me - go figure.

I believe that HD or Revy sells two different types GFI. One is good for your bathroom. The other is a comercial grade (read heavy duty). The other difference is price - buy a good quality outlet.

[golden69_ca]

Um, woulden't have made more sence to fix the problem? If a GFI is tripping something is wrong.

I did, I removed the GFI. I still have the same equipment running off of a single circuit without a blown breaker and without any shocks to me - go figure.

I believe that HD or Revy sells two different types GFI. One is good for your bathroom. The other is a comercial grade (read heavy duty). The other difference is price - buy a good quality outlet.


you sould go to hd and sit and read an electrical book to find out the difference between a gri trip and a blown breaker. :D

[Quinn]

pop seems to understand what's going on so i'll let him worry about it from here on in.

[wayner]

My tank runs off a GFI, rather have a dead tank, than a dead me.

[Aquattro]

rather have a dead tank, than a dead me.

So simple, yet so true.

[ed99]

Good timing on this topic- I'm going to the hardware store this weekend for a GFI...

I'm no electrician, but agree with golden69, a GFI trip is not the same as circuit breaker trip. For those folks who have had GFI trips but nothing is wrong with the tank equipment, maybe there was something wrong with the GFI itself. I don't know how they're designed, but it could be that if they are broken they fail in the off position. Bad for the tank, but nobody gets electrocuted. On ReefCentral there are some topics on this- seems like quite a few people manage to electrocute themselves.

Ed

[Canadian Man]

Good timing on this topic- I'm going to the hardware store this weekend for a GFI...

I'm no electrician, but agree with golden69, a GFI trip is not the same as circuit breaker trip. For those folks who have had GFI trips but nothing is wrong with the tank equipment, maybe there was something wrong with the GFI itself. I don't know how they're designed, but it could be that if they are broken they fail in the off position. Bad for the tank, but nobody gets electrocuted. On ReefCentral there are some topics on this- seems like quite a few people manage to electrocute themselves.

Ed
Yes but there are also 15,000 or so members so you chances of hearing about it are better.

[golden69_ca]

Good timing on this topic- I'm going to the hardware store this weekend for a GFI...

I'm no electrician, but agree with golden69, a GFI trip is not the same as circuit breaker trip. For those folks who have had GFI trips but nothing is wrong with the tank equipment, maybe there was something wrong with the GFI itself. I don't know how they're designed, but it could be that if they are broken they fail in the off position. Bad for the tank, but nobody gets electrocuted. On ReefCentral there are some topics on this- seems like quite a few people manage to electrocute themselves.

Ed

they are desinged to fail open tha is why you are suposed to test them every couple of months.
:D

[BCOrchidGuy]

Personally I think Lights and heaters should be on GFI, power heads/submersible pumps ... no need..
Pumps that are meant to run dry, ... GFI

silly me, today moving stuff from one tank to another I dripped some water on a power bar... I saw smoke so I reached down to see what was going on... wowsa.. my shoulder is still sore, and the breaker didn't trip...

This coming weekend I have some plans, clean up all wiring, all Power bars will be away from water, and well above the floor, and GFIs will be installed for my lights and heaters.... damn shoulder hurts...

[golden69_ca]

if any one in the lower mainland wants help seting up or installing a gfi system fell free to ask . id gladly help some one who wants to be safe .

[BCOrchidGuy]

Hey Golden thats mighty generous of you.