Those who sell frags online Please Read!

[Jason McK]

When it comes to great coral frags, There are many amazing opportunities out there that just weren't there a couple of years ago.
I recently took part in a mini group buy from an online Coral Frag store. Picked some amazing pieces :).
But when they arrived there was an uneasiness while we unwrapped the package. Some frags had become separated from there plugs and all the frags where just placed into their individual bags. It was immediately obvious that there was a great deal of tissue damage because the frags where not fastened to styrofoam. It can't be that large of a burden to attach a 2x2 piece of styrofoam to each frag to ensure it arrives safe.
We now sit on pins and needles to see what will recover and what will be lost. 2 losses so far

I have been told that this is common practise for more than just the vendor I dealt with. But in my mind is simply unacceptable.

Now I do not want to paint everyone with the same brush. I have had wonderful experiences from a vendor in Calgary, Who actually showed me how to ship Frags.

food for thought. I can only imagine improved sales and support if my post is taken as it was written, as constructive criticisms meant to help improve arrive alive %.

[Aquattro]

Jason, thanks for your insight. shipping frags that hang from styrofoam is much better than dropping them in bags. Hopefully the vendors out there take heed and work towards more successful shipping.

[fencer]

I bought some frags from the reef shoppe and Kelly did attach the bases to styrofoam. I thought that was a good idea to anybody selling frags that have to do some travelling.

[Aquattro]

Let's try to keep store names out of the thread, this is more a theoretical discussion. Thanks.

[Denis]

Hi Jason,

I couldn't help to chime in here.
Some people just don't get it, they ship across Canada like this.
Sandwich bags with no air and no styro blocks.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k236/Krakonosh/Reef/IMG_3668.jpg
On top of all this was actually a replacement shipment (first was packed just like this and came completely DOA).
You can tell when someone does it just for the money.
It's a shame.

[Snappy]

Let's try to keep store names out of the thread, this is more a theoretical discussion. Thanks.
I would think it would be ok for vendors to respond especially if they are sponsers on Canreef. So that said, here are some of my thoughts on this topic.


One point I would make about shipping "floating frags" is this: many people are deterred from buying online because of the cost of shipping, and that said, shipping with the frags attached to styrofoam generally requires more water, a bigger bag and a bigger container therefore costing more to ship, making it a double edge sword. I generally ship this way but on occasion have not. I personally feel one of the problems with some vendors is they like to ship "fresh cut" frags so when you get them they still have lots of colour and they get a good customer rating but then due to stress they go brown in the customer tank in a day or two and they think it's their fault. My frag tank is on the same system, same water, etc. and when I cut frags they often turn brown within a few days from just moving them 10 feet across the room. Colour is not necessarliy a sign of health and just because the frags are browned out when they arrive in many cases doesn't reflect the quality. They will colour back up. Other than something like birdsnest, frags should be always be mounted but let's face it, even a well encrusted frag can fall off the mount when handled improperly by shippers. I appreciate what has been said but there is often more to the equation than most people realize. I think the replacement policy is what sets vendors apart from each other. For example, my frags don't just have an "arrive alive" policy, I have a "stay alive" for 10 days policy that is 2nd to none in Canada. I know what it's like to be treated poorly and make a point of not treating my customers like that.
Jason I also appreciate your comments about that "Calgary vendor":wink:

[Aquattro]

Greg, yes, vendors can reply if they so feel inclined, I just don't want a vendor rating thread out of this.

[wickedfrags]

I agree, while all online vendors shipping methods and materials will undoubtedly vary, customers can only hope they have it figured out. I always recommend potential customers concerned about buying online for the first time (or after having had a poor experience) review feedback on a vendor such as that available on canada.frags.org (which some of us use).

There is also some value (IMO) in doing a quick "google" of a vendor to see what others are saying about their experiences. I have learned a lot doing this!

Floating (styrofoam) is a good shipping technique to be aware. That being said it is not always required, and I have personally been equally successful not using the floating technique. Just like the coral exporters around the world, some float their corals during transport, others do not.

Shipping can also be alot easier said than done! I have fully researched shipping fish and hey I am 1 for 1, but will not be 100% confident in my technique until I have shipped as many fish as I have corals.

[marie]

I have a question for the vendors on here, has dry shipping been looked into? It would seem to make sense money wise because your not shipping water.
I have sent monti frags and a few acros to Anthony that were dry shipped and they survived (sometimes they didn't but I think that could be blamed on lousy heat packs, cold weather and lousy couriers :mrgreen: )

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic48159-9-1.aspx?Highlight=Dry+shipping

[Borderjumper]

I too have bought hundreds and hundreds of dollars of frags online. A vender I USED to buy from would ship 3-5 MOUNTED frags together in ONE bag. Well by the time they beat each other up during the shipment there wasnt much tissue left.

The last bunch of online frags I bought came packed in sandwhich bags.. in a plain cardboard box.. not even lined with stryofoam.. and this too was a replacement shipment. :twised:

I really dont mind spending good money for nice frags.. but I do expect some care and thought in how they are packed. Its a HUGE dissapointment to look forward to your new corals.. and then the UPS man calls you and says umm I have a box for you.. but its kinda wet.:sad:

My last shipments I didnt even bother to try and get the deads replaced.. It wasnt worth it IMO to have to go thru this over and over.

Neither of these shipments were from the sponsors who have replied above my post:mrgreen:

[wickedfrags]

I have read a lot about this, and while I think most people acknowledge it is possible, many regular shippers feel the losses are generally higher than when shipped with water. One of the australia shipments we received, some of the pieces were shipped "damp" and the survival rate was not as high as those shipped in water where there were essentially no losses. You still need to ship overnight, express, so you may only be looking at $30 difference (does not even buy you a piece of liverock!)

I have a question for the vendors on here, has dry shipping been looked into? It would seem to make sense money wise because your not shipping water.
I have sent monti frags and a few acros to Anthony that were dry shipped and they survived (sometimes they didn't but I think that could be blamed on lousy heat packs, cold weather and lousy couriers :mrgreen: )

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic48159-9-1.aspx?Highlight=Dry+shipping

While I have never shipped multiple corals in the same bag (excluding ricordia florida) I could see how someone would do this with zoas if the shiping container was tight on space. Zoas generally don't mind touching and should not get that stressed. That being said, sandwich bags and a non-insulated box does not show much of a commitment on behalf of the seller, so they may not have been thinking this when they shipped.

I too have bought hundreds and hundreds of dollars of frags online. A vender I USED to buy from would ship 3-5 MOUNTED frags together in ONE bag. Well by the time they beat each other up during the shipment there wasnt much tissue left.

The last bunch of online frags I bought came packed in sandwhich bags.. in a plain cardboard box.. not even lined with stryofoam.. and this too was a replacement shipment. :twised:

I really dont mind spending good money for nice frags.. but I do expect some care and thought in how they are packed. Its a HUGE dissapointment to look forward to your new corals.. and then the UPS man calls you and says umm I have a box for you.. but its kinda wet.:sad:

My last shipments I didnt even bother to try and get the deads replaced.. It wasnt worth it IMO to have to go thru this over and over.

Neither of these shipments were from the sponsors who have replied above my post:mrgreen:

[mildcustom2]

Let's try to keep store names out of the thread, this is more a theoretical discussion. Thanks.

I hate to turn this into an ethics debate but I believe that people should be allowed to mention vendors names when discusing bad or good experiences as long as it is not derogatory in any way. Canreef is an information sharing bulletin board and has a responsibility to support vendors that practice good reef keeping ethics. If people aren't kept informed as to who practices good ethics then the bad vendors get to stay in business praying on the innocent reefers out there and the good vendors don't get the credit they deserve.

Pop

There goes the can of worms opening:lol:

[Jason McK]

I hate to turn this into an ethics debate but I believe that people should be allowed to mention vendors names when discusing bad or good experiences as long as it is not derogatory in any way. Canreef is an information sharing bulletin board and has a responsibility to support vendors that practice good reef keeping ethics. If people aren't kept informed as to who practices good ethics then the bad vendors get to stay in business praying on the innocent reefers out there and the good vendors don't get the credit they deserve.

Pop

There goes the can of worms opening:lol:

Please don't that is not what this is about.

This thread is about talking to the people who supply us with some of the most unique corals we have seen in Canada Ever. Not to bash or slam them

I think their support is very important, other wise we loose the ability to get anything beyond xenia and button polyps

If this thread is heading into a Bash fest I will ask it to be closed

Jason

[mildcustom2]

Please don't that is not what this is about.

This thread is about talking to the people who supply us with some of the most unique corals we have seen in Canada Ever. Not to bash or slam them

I think their support is very important, other wise we loose the ability to get anything beyond xenia and button polyps

If this thread is heading into a Bash fest I will ask it to be closed

Jason



This isn't about bashing its about making sure that no one else deals with the same person you did and has their money taken from them. I like to hear about good experiences so that I can support that vendor so they continue to support the hobby in a positive way.

Its only bashing if its exagerated or not true.

Thanx

Sean

[Matt]

I second the vote for shippers to experiment with dry shipping. Following Calfo's advice, it seems a safer (though less 'comfortable') alternative. Has anyone here experimented?

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/eb/index.php

[Myka]

As far as dry shipping goes...would it be beneficial or detrimental to ship with just enough water to cover the frag? I always ship with lots of water and use styrofoam on anything I can attach to it like Candy Cane, Duncan, Euphyllias, etc. Not gonna work for the Brains though... :D

[Jason McK]

This isn't about bashing its about making sure that no one else deals with the same person you did and has their money taken from them. I like to hear about good experiences so that I can support that vendor so they continue to support the hobby in a positive way.

Its only bashing if its exagerated or not true.

Thanx

Sean

unfortunately that is not how it usually works out. I feel a better Idea is to try work with our vendors that work against them.

Speaking in general terms benefits everyone. People learn what is to be expected and our Vendors learn what is necessary to keep our business.
Dozens of times this issue has come up on Canreef. Please do not end this discussion with further posts on vendor reviews
Thank you
Jason

[Matt]

As far as dry shipping goes...would it be beneficial or detrimental to ship with just enough water to cover the frag? I always ship with lots of water and use styrofoam on anything I can attach to it like Candy Cane, Duncan, Euphyllias, etc. Not gonna work for the Brains though... :DCalfo says damp paper towels or kelp-type seaweed... it's counter-intuitive to my mind, but his explanation makes sense, I guess. I've never tried it.

[marie]

As far as dry shipping goes...would it be beneficial or detrimental to ship with just enough water to cover the frag? I always ship with lots of water and use styrofoam on anything I can attach to it like Candy Cane, Duncan, Euphyllias, etc. Not gonna work for the Brains though... :D

I believe the theory is (and I could be wrong) that when a coral is packed in water there is a build of of waste and coral slime which can pollute the water.
So if your going to pack in water, more water is better.
I have sent montiporas (which can slime up really bad) wrapped in papertowel and sealed in bag plastic with no ill effect and that was 20hrs in transit

[Snappy]

I appreciate the suggestion of dry shipping but as a vendor I offer a guarantee so I can only ship with a proven method that I feel comfortable with to make such a guarantee. I don't think many of the more sensitive acros would be in very good shape when reaching their destination with the dry shipping, especially if there is a delay by the shipping company. That said if someone wants to pay for the shipping I will send them a couple of sps frags free as an experiment.

[fencer]

Hey Coral Master
I'd pay for greyhound shipping for some free frags and try dry shipping.
PM me LMO

[Aquattro]

This isn't about bashing its about making sure that no one else deals with the same person you did and has their money taken from them. I like to hear about good experiences so that I can support that vendor so they continue to support the hobby in a positive way.

Its only bashing if its exagerated or not true.

Thanx

Sean

Sorry, we will not allow "vendor ratings".

[Myka]

That said if someone wants to pay for the shipping I will send them a couple of sps frags free as an experiment.

I could try that out. If you want to do Greyhound. Would be interesting as it would be an 18 hour trip for them I think. I'd prefer LPS though I don't think you sell LPS...? If not, digis would be nice.

[tang daddy]

My expeirience with online 1 online vendor was alittle dissapointing aswell,
the vendor had shipped with zip locks and a cardboard box with styrochips in it 2 out of 8 leaked suprising to say that all made it, although I will say that there could've been alittle more care put into shipping as this is they're buisness and if they wanted a repeated customer then they should've cared more.

I am not very expeirienced in shipping as this is not a buisness for me but I shipped some stuff out and took the best care to ship it. I used 1 bag with a larger piece of styrofoam in it, lots of water and mounted about 7 sps frags on acrylic rods and stuck them a few inches apart. I believe they all arrived well and am pretty proud for a beginner shipper...

If I had smaller bags I would've gone with seperate but I found my method to work aswell.

[midgetwaiter]

I appreciate the suggestion of dry shipping but as a vendor I offer a guarantee so I can only ship with a proven method that I feel comfortable with to make such a guarantee. I don't think many of the more sensitive acros would be in very good shape when reaching their destination with the dry shipping, especially if there is a delay by the shipping company. That said if someone wants to pay for the shipping I will send them a couple of sps frags free as an experiment.

It's a pretty well understood method that never really caught on for some reason. You can wrap in wet paper towel strips of plastic to reduce jostling with an ounce or so of water to maintain humidity. The idea is that when the shipping water starts to foul the problem quickly compounds itself as the nasty water causes more tissue loss. Things encrusted on the plugs that die off can cause problems too, less of an issue if shipped dry.

I move pretty much everything this way but some LPS. I found that some things like euphyllia and xenia didn't take to well to it, they lived but took a while to recover, I raft those. Anemones do really well damp as well. I've tried packing like this at the store a bit but people usually look at me like I'm insane so I stopped.

Greg Sean B and I were thinking of ordering some stuff from you soon. Shoot me a PM and I'll give you some tips, then we can try it.

[wickedfrags]

I would guess that the reason that it did not catch on is because the overall success rate was not that high. Also, when shipping different species/varieties of coral, you may need to ship with water anyway so the potential savings in shipping would be reduced significantly.

It is interesting though, because some feel that the best way to acclimatise your new corals is to get them out of that "contaminated" shipping water ASAP, while others recommend floating, dripping ect. over an extended period.

It's a pretty well understood method that never really caught on for some reason. You can wrap in wet paper towel strips of plastic to reduce jostling with an ounce or so of water to maintain humidity. The idea is that when the shipping water starts to foul the problem quickly compounds itself as the nasty water causes more tissue loss. Things encrusted on the plugs that die off can cause problems too, less of an issue if shipped dry.

I move pretty much everything this way but some LPS. I found that some things like euphyllia and xenia didn't take to well to it, they lived but took a while to recover, I raft those. Anemones do really well damp as well. I've tried packing like this at the store a bit but people usually look at me like I'm insane so I stopped.

Greg Sean B and I were thinking of ordering some stuff from you soon. Shoot me a PM and I'll give you some tips, then we can try it.

[Matt]

I would guess that the reason that it did not catch on is because the overall success rate was not that high. Also, when shipping different species/varieties of coral, you may need to ship with water anyway so the potential savings in shipping would be reduced significantly.

It is interesting though, because some feel that the best way to acclimatise your new corals is to get them out of that "contaminated" shipping water ASAP, while others recommend floating, dripping ect. over an extended period.We've got Anthony Calfo to refer to again (http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic41993-13-1.aspx). He's about the most authoratative voice I listen to. For sure, his opinion is fish and corals (generalizing) get out of the bag double-quick. Inverts, maybe not. Regarding dry-shipping anemones, probably yes. (http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic49762-13-1.aspx)

I imagine that the reson dry-shipping didn't take off was fairly simple: the average punter can't see it as a good idea -- initially it seems cruel, irrational, or cut-corner cheap. Too much effort is required to explain it, so people get what they expect.

[wickedfrags]

Good references, and I agree with you Anthony Calfo is a great resource.

Another reason it didn't take off (maybe)...who is losing corals during shipping anyway??? I personally made a couple mistakes when I first started shipping and learned a couple things (and had to replace pieces that did not survive), but have since since had nothing short of great results shipping. And I in no way invented a new way of shipping, I only follow what other people have done with success in the past.

Procedures for fish though are much different that corals/frags because of the change in pH.

We've got Anthony Calfo to refer to again (http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic41993-13-1.aspx). He's about the most authoratative voice I listen to. For sure, his opinion is fish and corals (generalizing) get out of the bag double-quick. Inverts, maybe not. Regarding dry-shipping anemones, probably yes. (http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic49762-13-1.aspx)

I imagine that the reson dry-shipping didn't take off was fairly simple: the average punter can't see it as a good idea -- initially it seems cruel, irrational, or cut-corner cheap. Too much effort is required to explain it, so people get what they expect.

[Snappy]

I could try that out. If you want to do Greyhound. Would be interesting as it would be an 18 hour trip for them I think. I'd prefer LPS though I don't think you sell LPS...? If not, digis would be nice.
Sorry I don't ship greyhound unless there is no other means. It takes an extra 90 minutes out my day I don't have to travel across town and fight traffic. I prefer to use a courier that provides door to door service. Better for everyone that way.:biggrin:

fencerHey Coral Master
I'd pay for greyhound shipping for some free frags and try dry shipping.
PM me LMO
Please see above.

[Reefer Rob]

LOL don't try shipping Seriatapora dry, that experiment's already been done! The replacement coral I promptly received from the Vendor is doing well.

[rocketlily]

I just thought I would share my experience with dealing with an online vendor. This was my first online purchase, and the package just arrived (sitting in my office right now). Each frag is in it's own little bag. All bags were packed in a styrofoam box, nice and tight, no leaking. The vendor even packed a couple of presents with the order.

I know I can't mention names, but I will be being buying again from him.

Thank you Dave.