Pet Store Supports Puppy Mills

[EmilyB]

What do you think about seeing a three legged pup for sale ? :twised:

I have reported them to the Humane Society. I just hope they will finally be shut down.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

How did it lose its leg? And what should they do with a three-legged puppy?

[dsaundry]

I had a dog with three legs a number of years ago. He was a great dog, full of life and a good and loyal friend. I don't know about this dog but I wouldn't have traded my dog for anything. I don't support puppy mills so I am assuming you have confirmed this? But if you are condemming an animal due to a physical flaw I would not agree with that. Humans can be born without arms or legs but they can still function and lead a reasonably healthy and happy life. I know there are problems but I have been fortunate to see some amazing things acomplished by animals and humans with physical defects. My only questions to you are...Has the dog been checked by a vet and confirmed whether it is in good health? Have you confirmed it has come from a "puppy mill"? What would you suggest they do with the dog?

Not judging anything or anyone..just my opinion.

[EmilyB]

They shouldn't be buying pups from puppy mills (backyard breeders)...period.:cry:

Do you think a three-legged dog will find it's best home through a pet store??? :surprise:

[EmilyB]

Oh, you think I am about the dog....

Are you crazy? I wish I could have rescued it there and then. I hope that is what the humane society will do. I would call a breed rescue if I could fine a heeler one in Alberta.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

How do you know which stores buy animals from these "mills"? How is the consumer to know? And what's a better place to buy pets?

[EmilyB]

How do you know which stores buy animals from these "mills"? How is the consumer to know? And what's a better place to buy pets?

A better place to buy pets? From a reputable breeder...

You decide if they buy from puppy mills. Research.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

How do you find a reputable dealer? How do you know which ones are reputable? As a first time buyer, for example. I'm not being argumentative....I'm asking honestly. I'm relatively new back to Calgary (in the last few years), and don't know lots of people here who've purchased dogs. I never have.

How do you research these puppy mills, too? Do you visit them personally and inspect the conditions? And do you do this with the fish, invertebrates and corals you purchase as well? How can you be sure they were caught, transported and acclimated humanely?

[EmilyB]

Oh right I forgot, you don't have dogs do you? :lol: :razz: You should check out the Humane Society for cats, seems like that's all they have these days...:wink:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Oh right I forgot, you don't have dogs do you? :lol: :razz: You should check out the Humane Society for cats, seems like that's all they have these days...:wink:

LOL. No, but I do love dogs...and I'd hate to support an inhumane trade. I'm just saying...it seems difficult to really KNOW who is reputable and who isn't. At least for me....it seems like it might be.

But yeah. If I wanted a pet, I'd probably hit up the humane society first.

[EmilyB]

If you need to find a reputable breeder for a specific breed, do some research. The same way you research your fish purchases I guess.

I can give you some leads for GSD's and Dobermans. Others on here can give you leads for other breeds.

[EmilyB]

Do you yourself know what backyard breeding is?

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I believe it's people who breed dogs to make a buck....not necessarily with the knowledge of what it takes to breed appropriately/responsibly/ethically/etc.

Hey, I'm just curious here...not trying to raise a stink :) I considered getting a dog, but decided against it as I feel my apartment is too small, and that I don't have the time to devote to such a social creature with specific needs.

Just out of curiosity, what's a GSD? And do you think a Doberman would be happy in my 1100 sq. foot apartment? :p

[Sebae again]

IMO the best thing to do is ask to see the parents.There are now ''breeders'' who are buying dogs from other sources and giving the impression that they are their own.Everything looks like a ''mom and pop operation'' but some of these people are making a full fledged business out of this out of their home.

[EmilyB]

A GSD is a German Shepherd Dog. That is the exact name of the breed. :mrgreen: If you like a velcro demanding dog, that is the Doberman. The well-bred one, anyway.

Seeing the parents is fine. But do you know if they are clear of the possible genetic defects etc for the breed ? Make sure of that.

Anyway, *edited* is notorious for buying from puppy mills. Google it. I have to see it, because I go in there to look...it haunts me. Not in the rest of the city apparently. In fact, how many places are there in Calgary where they sell puppies of unknown origin?

[Chaloupa]

How to buy a dog;
Talk to a veterinarian and get breeder listings from them, then contact the breeder, ask to meet them and their dogs and get many many references. Get the breeders vet's name and ask for a reference from them too. Then because you have researched the breed you know what other things to ask about...ie hips and elbows are free from hip dysplasia, their eyes are clear and have been tested, they have no inherited issues in their lines, etc

I am with ya on the puppy mills....sad sad state most of those dogs live in all their lives. My Mom manages an SPCA and their job is so tough.

Hopefully the SPCA there can and will inspect the pet store that has the puppy BUT unless there is a health concern, it is not being fed/given water, kept warm and dry etc there isn't a bunch they can do with the puppy...after all it's not illegal for pet stores to purchase puppies wherever they want...and then they get the impulse shopper that has to buy that "Dachshund type" or "Purebred Bichon Poodle mix" (love those ones:twised:) for $1200.00.

Anyone interested in a dog should always research, research, research first...just like we preach here!

[EmilyB]

How to buy a dog;
Talk to a veterinarian and get breeder listings from them, then contact the breeder, ask to meet them and their dogs and get many many references. Get the breeders vet's name and ask for a reference from them too. Then because you have researched the breed you know what other things to ask about...ie hips and elbows are free from hip dysplasia, their eyes are clear and have been tested, they have no inherited issues in their lines, etc



Absolutely well put !

Our vet got us in contact with a doberman breeder who also did breed rescue. As a result, we adopted a wonderful dog, albeit less than perfect...:lol:

[Ephraim]

Emily,

The only reason *edit* is notorious for buying puppies from puppy mills is uneducated "heros" trying to make a difference, continuing to spread these rumors. Guess what, I happen to know the woman who purchases puppies for the Canadian corporate stores quite well. And I know for a fact that everything you say about the Canadian *edit* is puppy C**P.


*edit* adopts puppies as well, does that by default make them purchase from puppy mills too?

*edit* provides an essential service so not only elitist dog lovers such as yourself can purchase dogs. If consumers were robbed of this venue for adopting puppies wouldn't the majority of them resort to the bargain finder for their puppies? You find this to be a better route?

[Ephraim]

And by the way Emily, i strongly disagree with you that a three legged puppy does not deserve a loving permanent home. You may wish to see this animal destroyed, but it still deserves a life. I am sure there are many qualities about yourself that are less than perfect. Should one immediately take these into account upon meeting you for an accurate judgment of your worth?

[Reefer Rob]

The best place to start if you're looking for a purebred dog is your local dog show. You can meet with the breeders, and they are more than happy to talk to you about their breed. All my best dogs have been mixed breeds so I hope your not saying anyone who breeds a mongrel is a puppy mill. We work in the pet industry so we see all kinds of "breeders" (Labradoodles LOL) and the true puppy millers make me sick. These people are nothing like someone who lets their dog have a couple of litters, they're pure evil. At the other end of the scale are the elitist purebred breeders who believe the only dog of value is a show champion. Give me a mutt any day.

[marie]

They shouldn't be buying pups from puppy mills (backyard breeders)...period.:cry:

Do you think a three-legged dog will find it's best home through a pet store??? :surprise:

Backyard breeders and puppymills are not same thing. I have seen some wonderful backyard dogs that have had a litter of puppies that are better socialized and cared for then some reputable breeders puppies.

[dsaundry]

The one question I asked and you have still not answered is how do you know that this dog is from a "puppy mill"? If you do report this to the authorities, the first question they will ask is what proof you have. "Gut" instinct isn't enough. You have said in your previous posts that another member should do his research. Have you done yours? I am very familiar with the deplorable condition that dogs{amongst other animals} are kept in when they are in these inhumane breeding factories. My question still stands. What proof do you have that this animal is from a "puppy mill"? If it is indeed from a "mill" then the pet store in question and the "mill" operators should face the concequences. I have worked with both the S.P.C.A. and law enforcement officers and have seen some horrible situations regarding animals. I have also seen reputable breeders been put under the microscope due to an uninformed opinion. I am talking about breeders who go above and beyond when it come to the care of their animals. If you are going to proceed with your charges against this "Store" then make sure you have all your facts and document all your evidence against them so they can face charges. I am not against you on your quest for humane treatment of animals, I am concerned that you may not have the "evidence" that you need to charge these people.

[Matt]

I have worked in several pet stores, and for about 10 years, my family owned and operated one. We sold dogs, as well as the rest of the usual small-animal and bird menagerie. We were reasonably responsible, and bought from local breeders for our purebred stock, and sold love-pups, too (small town, no local shelter).

I offer this advice to anyone looking for a dog: A pet store is the last place to go to buy a dog. Staff are low paid, often untrained. Puppies are separated from their mothers too soon, as they sell best when they are fluffy and cute, and you need to allow for some "stock" time. It isn't unusual to see 5 and 6 week old pups in pet stores. Their immune and digestive systems are still developing, and they're put in a high-stress, high-contagion environment.

There are pet stores that do a marvellous job of caring for thier dogs, training their staff, and sourcing and placing dogs. But, given that there are much better alternatives, as described elsewhere in this thread, this is a slice of the business that doesn't need to exist.

In the words of Dennis Miller: "But that's just my opinion... I could be wrong."

[Ephraim]

Evidence is not a common tool use for these people that complain about retailers that deal with puppies. They consider some random links pertaining to a random franchise in the US as all they need. If someone wanted to get evidence, they would have researched this 3 legged dog a bit before posting here. They would have found out, as I did this morning, that this poor pup was rescued from a reserve by the Pets for Life Foundation. They would have also found out that his leg needed to be amputated because he was found after being struck by a vehicle, the damage too severe to save the leg.

[Aquattro]

You may wish to see this animal destroyed, but it still deserves a life.

Um, that's not what she said. She wanted it rescued from the pet store, which in my opinion, is the worst place for a dog to be.

If you want a dog, research breeders, talk to dog club members, get to know something about the breeder. I'm looking for a Border Collie right now, so I need to check for eye sight issues, hearing problems, hips, etc. Early neurological stimulation is another thing that might be worth researching. Also, many of the best breeders don't own both parents, so you can't see both. This way they get to breed with the best out there, not just the best in the yard. Inspect bloodlines of the a few generations back, good breeders have these records. I'm looking for an agility/herding dog, so I'm being picky, but if you just want a dog buddy, go save one from the SPCA. My dog came from there and is just the greatest bozo around! :)

[Ephraim]

So your saying that this dog is better off in the SPCA where it will be put down if it cannot find a home, which is quite likely for a dog in this condition, opposed to a pet store where it is guarenteed to find a home? Correct?

[Aquattro]

So your saying that this dog is better off in the SPCA where it will be put down if it cannot find a home, which is quite likely for a dog in this condition, opposed to a pet store where it is guarenteed to find a home? Correct?


No, you're getting all excited and not reading. Deb suggested contacting a blue heeler rescue for the dog, if one existed in alberta. And yes, the dog would be better off in a rescue environment, where they would likely find a home setting for it until such time as they found it a real home. Sitting in a retail box is not good for anything smarter than a hamster....

[Ephraim]

If it wasnt for the Pets for a Lifetime organization going out an rescuing the dog it would be definately dead by now. Now realistically, yes a home setting would be better for this animal. And he came from a home setting while he acclimated to a condition to where he would be fit for a transition to a new home. Unfortunately he cannot stay there for it's entire life because there is more dogs/cats that need to be rescued from these conditions. That is why he gets moved to a venue for maximum exposure in order to find him a home.

[Aquattro]

That is why he gets moved to a venue for maximum exposure in order to find him a home.

Ya, the point, I guess, is some of us don't think maximizing exposure is worth putting a dog in a pet store. And let's be honest, unless the pet store is giving him away (maybe they are? ), nobody is likely to buy a 3-legged dog. Not even for 25% off :)
The general point of this whole thread is that dogs should not be sold in pet stores. And I strongly believe people, that just because they own one of each sex, should not try to breed sub standard dogs in their backyard. This applies to commercial operations (puppy mills) as well. dogs should be bred and sold by qualified and caring breeders who have the experience to produce great dogs that aren't going to end up with tons of medical issues or mental issues.

[Reefer Rob]

dogs should be bred and sold by qualified and caring breeders who have the experience to produce great dogs that aren't going to end up with tons of medical issues or mental issues.

It is very rare to find a breeder like this. Almost nobody waits until the hips are checked before they even show a dog, and if you've spent a ton of money getting a CKC championship on your puppy most can hardly wait to breed them. Honestly, barnyard dogs most often make the better, healthier pets.

[Aquattro]

It is very rare to find a breeder like this.

Well, most of the breeders I've researched do this, so I guess it's how hard you're willing to look. I agree some (many?) "breeders" don't, but then I wouldn't really call them professional breeders.
And yes, barnyard mutts do make great pets, and cross breeds do seem to avoid many of the inherent problems of either of the parents, but if you're looking for a purebred, like I am ( I need particular abilities), I need to research and find suitable breeders.

[Ephraim]

So even though maximizing the exposure of the dog is part of the system that got it rescued in the first place, this should not be done? If this wasn't done, Pets for Life would not be able to rescue as many dogs. There is not alot of people that are going to drive all the way to the acreage to view these animals and adopt them.

And BTW, you would be surprised the amount of people that would be willing to adopt a 3 legged dog, even for a small adoption fee that does not even cover the vet expenses to bring it back to health.

[Aquattro]

My point is there is often better ways to maximize exposure. Most rescue societies have a web site and a large circle of contacts. I have some friends involved in pitty rescue and they do a great job of exposure, finding temporary home settings and getting dogs adopted. This gets them out of the pound and into real life settings.
Sure, it might work out better this time for this dog, but in general, I, at least, feel dogs should not be sold in pet stores, and in fact, I do not shop at stores that sell dogs, period.

[EmilyB]

There were four dogs in the litter btw. All for sale.

The Humane Society has advised a letter to the head office which is about all I can do.

BTW, I also know an employee of *edit*. No, ex-employee actually, he resigned.

Thank you Brad for not letting the wrong words be put in my mouth. My husband does that enough....:lol:

[EmilyB]

There is not alot of people that are going to drive all the way to the acreage to view these animals and adopt them.



That would be terribly inconvenient. And pretty much sums up the mentality of many of the puppy buyers.

We drove to Seattle and back to adopt a greyhound. Do you see the difference?

[Aquattro]

That would be terribly inconvenient. And pretty much sums up the mentality of many of the puppy buyers.

We drove to Seattle and back to adopt a greyhound. Do you see the difference?

I've got a line on a pup that is currently in Illinois...ya, that's inconvenient, but well worth it for the right dog..

[Patrick1]

Wow,

I thought the MH vs T5 was a hot topic on here. But serisouly, the common ground here seems to be that fact that you all care deeply about the welfare of animals. I think that is the most important part. And it would be a good idea for everyone to just keep that in mind. I would hate to see friendships turn sour after this debate. It looks like everyone has the same end goal, the best care for an animal in mind. And if things get heated just keep in mind every one here wants the best outcome for any animal. Right Tang Police?

[dsaundry]

Well I have watched this thread with interest and my question to Emily still hasnt been answered. What proof do you have that this store supports "puppy mills"? I dont care whether you drove to Mexico to buy a dog, the thread you started states that this store?? supports "puppy mills" I am neither affiliated with this or any pet store but if you are going to accuse a company of this, you better back it up with facts. Whether it is someone smuggling parrots, or fish, or whatever, the accusation has been made by you. So what proof do you have? Have you seen this "mill"? I would stand behind you 100% if you actually have some proof and not hearsay from a disgruntled employee. Is this employee willing to swear about what he has actually seen? If you don't agree that dogs should be sold in pet stores, then what about other animals? Cats?? Ferrets?? Hamsters?? Reptiles?? even Fish?? it boils down to the type of care that both the pet store provides to the animal. I don't deny there are pet stores I would like to see crumble to the ground, but there are still a select few that actually provide good care to all their animals. Maybe not many, but there are a few. So my question which you have still not answered remains. What is your proof that they support "Puppy Mills"? Simple question..maybe not a simple answer.

[Aquattro]

What is your proof that they support "Puppy Mills"? Simple question..maybe not a simple answer.


Yup, pretty simple answer. Reputable breeders of dogs DO NOT sell their puppies to pet stores. Pet stores DO NOT pay the price charged by reputable breeders. What is left is discount high volume breeding kennels, commonly referred to as puppy mills, because they can pump out the dogs at wholesale prices. The other source of pups for the retail stores comes from the private backyard breeder who either can't sell privately or doesn't want to take th etime to find suitable homes for the pups they may or may not have planned on.
Neither of these sources are good sources for a quality dog. Not gauranteed to get a "bad" dog, but certainly not gauranteed to be a good dog. Example. My parents bought a dog from the pet store that (eventually) was confirmed to have come from a "mill" at 5 months of age, it's heart exploded. The dog died in my dad's arms. The pet store stated that it was not the only dog from that litter that died of heart problems. Parents out one dog.
A reputable breeder would have worked hard at avoiding this ever being intorduced into their breeding line, and should something like this have happened, their would have been a gaurantee to either replace the dog or refund the purchase price.

So yes, although we may not have video footage of the dark alley puppy transaction, we can be well assured that "most" dogs from a pet store did not come from a reputable breeder.

[Aquattro]

I dont care whether you drove to Mexico to buy a dog,

There is an agency that will assist Canadians in adopting Mexican dogs if you want one, no need to drive all the way there :)

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Interesting. I never understood the rationale behind the assumption that pet store dogs came from these puppy mills or backyard breeders. Thanks, Brad.

The last few times I've been to these big pet stores, they have dogs in two categories: puppies for sale, and rescued adult animals (they usually have a typed up story behind the animal--where it was found, age, temperment, etc.) I don't see any harm in the latter. Kind of a satellite SPCA...sort of?

I'm curious then, since I'm mostly a cat lover, where do the cats come from, and do cats have the same genetic issues as the dogs do? What about the birds and fish? Reptiles, etc.

[Aquattro]

I'm curious then, since I'm mostly a cat lover,

We lika ya Drew, so we won't hold that against you :)

I'm not sure of cats, but I suspect that if PB cats may be in th esame position as dogs. Again, most pet stores only sell gray cats or orange cats, again from often unexpected/wanted litters. They are given to the store for free and sold at a nominal cost. Purebreds again suffer the same fate as dogs. Professional Maine Coon breeders do not sell to pet stores and vice versa.
Birds from stores are mostly wild caught, although the occasional hand fed locally bred birds do make it to the pet stores, mostly from hobbyists that had a try at breeding. Not the same game as dogs and cats.

[Aquattro]

Here is a typical description on buying puppies. This comes from a site I'm currently reading on BCs, but is applicable to all breeds;

"Where should I get my dog?

There are several options, some good, others not so good. If you choose to get an adult dog, you can get one from a shelter, from a Border Collie rescue organization, or from a breeder who is looking for a home for an adult Border Collie. If you decide to get a puppy, you should do some research and find a breeder with a good reputation. Do not buy a Border Collie puppy from a pet store. Although these puppies are adorable, they are generally from puppy mills and are incredibly overpriced. Most people don't realize that they can usually buy a very well-bred, well-socialized, pet-quality puppy with exceptional guarantees from a reputable breeder for less money than they can buy a puppy from a pet store. Pet store puppies have usually been bred for profit with little consideration given to long-term health. They are often prone to many problems, such as epilepsy, hip and joint problems, and early blindness. They are also usually poorly socialized, which means they can grow up to be timid, fearful dogs. Do not even buy from pet stores advertising that their animals are not from puppy mills: no reputable breeder would ever sell puppies to a pet store! You will often encounter the same problems with health and socialization with puppies sold through ads in the newspaper. The best way to find a good breeder is by asking people who already own healthy Border Collies with good temperaments."

[Aquattro]

Backyard breeders and puppymills are not same thing. I have seen some wonderful backyard dogs that have had a litter of puppies that are better socialized and cared for then some reputable breeders puppies.


My ex-wife bred her rottie to make a few bucks from pups. The pups are about 4 years old now, over half of them have hip problems and most of the buyers have called complaining about various other health issues. She solves these issues by hanging up the phone....

I bought an Akita 14 years ago from a reputable breeder for less than the backyard rotties went for. The breeder was there for questions and concerns my dog's entire life, and was even supportive after my dog passed away. If I had encountered genetic health issues, I had a replacement/money back gaurantee...

[findingnemo1]

U
I'm looking for a Border Collie right now, so I need to check for eye sight issues, hearing problems, hips, etc. I'm looking for an agility/herding dog, so I'm being picky.


Hey if you are looking for an agility dog have you looked into Aussies?
This is our 2nd one and i can honestly say for agility they are awsome. The guy we currently have we got from a breeder near Edmonton who received mom and dad from a breeder in San Diego. Very we'll built dogs. Great agility and very obidient right from the get go.All hips,eyes and elbows are checked and cleared before being sold and they also have a lifetime/replacement medical paid for etc.

And trully he is adorable:)
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/hansonfam_2006/BookerSummer136.jpg


But on the flip side to all of that...I have a CKC registered Golden retriever that we drove to Seattle for....Parents had been checked for everything under the sun and sure enough was diagnosed at 6months for hip dysplasia. And 6 months is very early to see this in a dog. So it is to say that even if you test for it and mom and dad don't have it doesn't mean that they won't get it. It all depends on what breed you choose and what they're breed is pre disposed to.

[Aquattro]

[QUOTE=findingnemo1;303596]Hey if you are looking for an agility dog have you looked into Aussies?
This is our 2nd one and i can honestly say for agility they are awsome. The guy we currently have we got from a breeder near Edmonton who received mom and dad from a breeder in San Diego. Very we'll built dogs. Great agility and very obidient right from the get go.All hips,eyes and elbows are checked and cleared before being sold and they also have a lifetime/replacement medical paid for etc.

And trully he is adorable:)

Ya, I had thought about an ACD, but recent exposure to a couple of red BCs has swayed me in that direction. I have to go with a red because my girlfriend's flyball team has about a million black and whites, and I have trouble telling them apart!!

[Ephraim]

So reef_raf, by your rational, no matter the caliber of a dog breeder and the amount of care the put into producing healthy, happy puppies conforming to breed standards, if they sold thier litter to a pet store they would cease to be a reputable breeder? This one feature will erase all other indications of a good reputation?

Some pet stores may not be paying as much as you would from a reputable breeder, but some do. When you look at the pricing of puppies in *edit*, it should be very evident from an assumption on the markup that the prices this company is paying is the same as what Jimbo would be paying from a breeder.

It also does not make much sense for a company to be adopting puppy milled dogs. Would this not cost much more in the long run. If a pet store was to purchase puppies from a reputable source they would see much less health warrenty problems. This simply makes sense.

[marie]

My ex-wife bred her rottie to make a few bucks from pups. The pups are about 4 years old now, over half of them have hip problems and most of the buyers have called complaining about various other health issues. She solves these issues by hanging up the phone....

I bought an Akita 14 years ago from a reputable breeder for less than the backyard rotties went for. The breeder was there for questions and concerns my dog's entire life, and was even supportive after my dog passed away. If I had encountered genetic health issues, I had a replacement/money back gaurantee...

Well I never said all backyard breedings were good :razz:.
On the flip side of the coin I have a rottie that comes in for a bath every 4 weeks who came from a very reputable breeder who even refused to sell the puppy unless it was fed exclusively raw (I don't agree with that but it shows concern on the breeders part) and the poor dog has the worst case of hip displasia I have ever seen (stage 4?). It is so bad it started showing up before the dog was a year old ( normally a dog is full grown before it even gets tested)

[pandafishowner]

So reef_raf, by your rational, no matter the caliber of a dog breeder and the amount of care the put into producing healthy, happy puppies conforming to breed standards, if they sold thier litter to a pet store they would cease to be a reputable breeder? This one feature will erase all other indications of a good reputation?

Some pet stores may not be paying as much as you would from a reputable breeder, but some do. When you look at the pricing of puppies in *edit*, it should be very evident from an assumption on the markup that the prices this company is paying is the same as what Jimbo would be paying from a breeder.

It also does not make much sense for a company to be adopting puppy milled dogs. Would this not cost much more in the long run. If a pet store was to purchase puppies from a reputable source they would see much less health warrenty problems. This simply makes sense.

Last I checked, neither *edit* offer ANY warranty on cats or dogs. Their health warranty was limited to birds, small animals and reptiles, and even that warranty was limited to 14 days from the date of purchase. The cost of accepting dogs (or cats) from a puppy (or kitten) mill is much cheaper than accepting dogs (or cats) from a breeder. Breeders want to guarantee their animals will be well taken care of. That's why the good breeders will actually ask YOU questions as well as answering any questions you may have from them. So yes, it does (to me at least) make sense that pet stores buy from mills. The animals are cheaper, are more unwanted that from breeders. Most mill animals are given to pet stores due to "wrong color" or "too small" or "not friendly enough" to be kept.

My aunt worked at *edit* in Manitoba for 15 years and those are the reasons they were often given animals. As someone said previously, orange and grey kittens are most common at petstores. Why? Because they're not "special" enough colors. She finally quit when they refused to stop supporting mills. Even their birds come from mills. Or I guess, large mass aviaries would be the right term.

When I considered getting a ragdoll kitten, *edit* was asking $1200 for a 6 week old. Kittens aren't supposed to be weaned from their mothers until 8-12 weeks of age. A breeder I looked into was asking a $600 adoption fee, which included all vet checks, first shots, deworming, a temporary license (I think it was 3 months?), and the cost of spaying/neutering (otherwise they make you sign a contract stating you will not breed your intact animal for fear of legal repurcussions). Plus the breeder would not let the kitten go until s/he was 12 weeks of age (3 months). Half the cost through the breeder than I would have paid through *edit*.

Most health problems arise in the later years of life. Petstores tend to sell puppies or kittens. Not older adults, aside from *edit* rescues. But generally those have written information stating if anything is wrong with them and how *edit* came to aquire them.

Also, did you know that at *edit*, you can haggle the prices down? If they paid $600 for a dog from a breeder, do you think they'd haggle the price down? All it took was for me to go back with my information from the breeder with all the costs and *edit* was "willing" to "let it go" for $500.

Wow. What a great store, they obviously cared so much about their animals. :rolleyes:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

So if I have hip dysplasia, what does that say about dear old mom and dad? :surprise: Damn, I knew they were shady.

[findingnemo1]

So if I have hip dysplasia, what does that say about dear old mom and dad? :surprise: Damn, I knew they were shady.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[dsaundry]

It seems to me that this thread is going the wrong way.
What do you think about seeing a three legged pup for sale ?

I have reported them to the Humane Society. I just hope they will finally be shut down.
It was stated that someone wanted to know what was thought about selling a three legged dog.

Now I am not trying to argue with all of the statements. I have agreed that "puppy mills" are horrible and should not be allowed to operate. I also stated that I support anybody who can prove that this is where they come from. I know you may not have a video showing this but it is still required to show proof of this. She has written a letter to the Humane Society..Great Has she written a letter to the head office of the pet store? Has she contacted anybody else in the company to voice a complaint with them and what has been their response? We are all very quick to make desicions sometimes without knowing all the facts. This includes surfing the net and basing our opinions on what is on the monitor. I agree that most dogs should be bought from reputable breeders, if you are going for a purebred dog. There isn't one breeder I have seen on either the CKC or the AKC that breeds mixbreed dogs. I have seen many of these dogs in shelters and in the local papers and in pet stores. Where do you draw the line. Do you pass a law stating that all purebred dogs come from breeders only? Do you prosecute anybody who sells a dog privately and is not registered with a kennel club?
My family has been in the legal field for many years and I have seen all kinds of things good+bad with the way our legal system is. Do you all remember the football player who was charged with breeding dogs for fighting and if they didnt perform he killed them. Do you all remeber the parrots somebody tried to smuggle across the border in a suitcase and 75% of the bird were dead. What about the illegal smuggling of fish and corals that are harvested and brought in the country every year. How do you guarantee the fish you bought is legal? 100% legal...It was pointed out to me by a friend who stated that if you walked into a room and saw a person holding a smoking gun and a body on the floor do you assume that he is guilty of murder? Most people jump to that conclussion. However it could have many possibilties. The shooting could have been self defence, the gun could have gone off accidently, it could be premeditated murder, amongst a few other possible things as well. I will not jump to any conclussion until I have all the facts. All breeders are not good and all pet stores are not bad. So EmilyB I hope you do shut this place down if it is doing what you say it is. Reef raf I hope you understand I read a lot of articles on the internet as well, I currently own 2 dogs and 2 cats who are very much a part of the family. As for a money back guarantee from your breeder for any genetic defects...not all breeders offer that type of clause in a bill of sale. I dont support any of these large franchise pet stores but I do have to take a bit of the Devil's advocate role here because I have run into good and bad in all walks of life. We Canadians seem to be very apethetic sometimes when it comes to letting corporations run business's like they own the world. But really folks, when was the last time you wrote or gathered a letter of complaint or a petition and sent it to your local MLA. When was the last time anybody said I wont drive my car to work because the oil companies are ripping us off. You get the idea. If the majority of the people in this country united against these industries you might see something done. Same thing with tax's too... bottom line is that if you started a petition and educated the people on all their policies do you think that "*edit* would change?? Now for the forgotten issue. If a qualified vet checks out the three legged dog and he is healthy..I would buy him.:biggrin:

[EmilyB]

Whew, don't you guys have to work at all ? :lol: Didn't I say I was going to write a letter ? What was that, like three hours ago....sheesh.

And in my absence Brad said it better than I would have. Reputable breeders would NEVER sell to a pet store PERIOD. Perhaps you think all MILLS are those miserable god-foresaken places in Quebec. Think again.

I'll let the head office know how pleasant it was watching the three legged pup try to balance on the wire bottom cage.

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/where.htm

[dsaundry]

I am at work..One of the perks when you rin your own business..:biggrin:
I hope you understand I am not trying to support any large company like "petland" or a variety of other ones that are out there. But you have to admit its been a fun thread..great reactions,,wish people would get this riled up over other things sometimes. I am not trying to act "stupid" or "dumb" I am well aware where these animals come from for the most part. Proving it can be very difficult sometimes. Just so you know there are breeders that will sell to some pet stores..reputable?? Maybe not, sometimes it is just a case of Mr Smiths Cocker Spaniel jumping a fence and having his way with Mrs Jones Poodle. What do they do with the puppies? Lets not forget the old farm solution sometimes, put them in a sack and throw them in a river. Most people sell them privately or will take them to a pet store. I know it isn't right but what is the solution for these animals? I have seen quite a few mixed breeds for sale in some pet stores,{not the big ones} they are not in cages or walking on wire mesh floors.They are in proper stalls which are clean and well cared for, so what do you do there? In most cases a mixed breed dog is a hardier animal than a purebred. I have had several dogs, purebreds and mixed. Loved them all. I have never had the misfortune of having a dog with genetic issues or serious health issues. Maybe I have been lucky or as I like to believe careful about where and what I buy. I knew Quebec had a reputation but not as a "Mill" capital. I always thought the biggest fault with Quebec was their football and hockey team..:lol: :lol: By the way the dog I had with 3 legs {lost his leg in a car accident}lived until he was 12 and was a fantastic dog.

[Delphinus]

Bark bark bark bark! Woof woof. Snuffle? Bark bark bark bark bark bark bark!

[langdon reefer]

Whew, don't you guys have to work at all ? :lol: Didn't I say I was going to write a letter ? What was that, like three hours ago....sheesh.

And in my absence Brad said it better than I would have. Reputable breeders would NEVER sell to a pet store PERIOD. Perhaps you think all MILLS are those miserable god-foresaken places in Quebec. Think again.

I'll let the head office know how pleasant it was watching the three legged pup try to balance on the wire bottom cage.

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/where.htm

But then again a reg. Breeder Cant Sell reg. Pups to a shop if the CKC found out OUCH thats a bad slap on the hands

[Aquattro]

So reef_raf, by your rational, no matter the caliber of a dog breeder and the amount of care the put into producing healthy, happy puppies conforming to breed standards, if they sold thier litter to a pet store they would cease to be a reputable breeder? This one feature will erase all other indications of a good reputation?


Yes, exactly. Now you're getting my point. Good breeders do not sell to pet shops, they just don't. People sell to pet shops to maximize investment over time. The breeder I'm trying to buy from wants 20 questions answered, pics of my yard, etc, before she'll let me have a pup. This kind of breeder does not sell a box of puppies to a store.

[Aquattro]

Bark bark bark bark! Woof woof. Snuffle? Bark bark bark bark bark bark bark!

Tony, I just can't agree with that statement...

[dsaundry]

:smile: :smile: :lol: :lol: :lol: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :razz: :razz:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Tony, I just can't agree with that statement...

Agreed. Totally uncalled for. Mods these days.

[dsaundry]

Emily, Great thread, If anything good was to come, look at all the hits in such a short time. Maybe with all the interest people will be less inclined for a spur of the moment purchase from anywhere? Just so you know.. stirring the pot is a good thing sometimes..:biggrin:

[Zoaelite]

Tony, I just can't agree with that statement...

LOL, Tony you add way to much humor to my day. Everyone else is writing a whole essay and throwing so much emotion into there posts and you respond in Dog/Cat Speak. Got to comment also dsaundry I have yet to come across someone with such an amazing talent for supporting there view points.

Now as far as the topic goes I worked at the Pet store in question for a total of a year and a half and in my personal view they absolutely DO NOT purchase from Puppy mills, breeders have to apply to sell there dogs and this store actually sends a trained person out to assess and qualify the operation. If the test fails the breeder is black listed and none of the stores can bring in dogs from that person. Now as one of these "highly unpaid and untrained" staff members It was my job to complete a check list from start to finish (Believe me when I say allot of people lost there job for not adhering to this) and guarantee that the animal is being sent to a proper home.

Now as far as purchasing from a Breeder compared to a store goes I'm going to argue the store is a better solution. When you purchase from a breeder you get the dog(Its basic needs are met how?). When you purchase from a Pet store such as the one in question you get the dog and the supplies (Plus the TRAINED KNOWLEDGE BEHIND IT). Also I don't think that allot of people actually know this but the store in question (I have seen this done many a time) can actually refuse sale if the animal is not being sent home to the proper house or with the proper equipment. Everyone's sitting here arguing about the fact that these animals are being treated horribly in the Pet store but no one is considering that the dog will be in the Pet store for 1-2 weeks but at your house for the rest of there life time. That's why the store in question has the logo "Pets for Life" and there motto is to match the right person with the right animal and meet the needs of both.

Levi Morgan

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Oh snap! That's pretty interesting, Levi.

[dsaundry]

Love debating sometimes. It exercises the mind and creates good conversation most of the time..:biggrin:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I disagree. Debating is the product of a lazy mind and only results in bad conversation.

[EmilyB]

I failed miserably in debating class, so I won't get into about selling them all that necessary equipment.......:wink:

[fishoholic]

*Sigh* I'm finally home and have the time to respond properly. I volunteer for an animal rescue society called "Second chance animal rescue society" and I would say that a least 5 dogs a year that come though SCARS have to have a leg amputated do to injuries. All of the scars dogs are in foster homes (so no worries they do not have to hop around on a wire bottom) and the three legged dogs are completely normal and can do everything their four legged friends do and they do get adopted out just as much as any other dog.

The puppy mill situations are awful and I'd like to think that most people would not purposely adopt from one. Having dogs stacked in cages never let out except to breed (yes people these dogs live in their pee and poop and usually there is 4-5 cages stacked on top of eachother and guess where their fecees travels, not a pretty sight!) this is not my idea of a well bread animal. I know this because we've rescued animals from places such as this.

We also deal with reserve animals and animals from the pound that are found in very poor conditions. We once had a lady call scars to tell us that there was this awful smell coming out from under her trailer. When Sylvia showed up she crawled under the trailer and found a small hole that 6 puppies fell into. Four were dead (hence the smell) and two were still alive. They died because the hole was just big enough that they couldn't climb out and they ended up starving to death. What's worse is that the owner (of the trailer) didn't care enough to pull them out and try to save them, they only wanted the smell to be gone! This is just a small taste of what scars goes through. :cry:

I got my dog Gulliver from scars. He came to scars because EHS was going to put him down (before ever going up for adoption) because he growled at the animal control officer, heaven forbid the slight possibility of him biting anyone and they be held liable. Gulliver does growl and bark at people coming into our house but he has never attacked anyone and he clams down quickly. Lucky for me one of the people working at the EHS called scars and said they thought he was a nice dog and didn't deserve to die. So one of the girls picked him up and a few days latter I met him and fell in love and adopted him.

I think if your not sure or don't really care about what breed you want then you should adopt from a no kill animal rescue society. If you want a specific breed then take a hard look at the breeder and ask around about them.

For anyone who wants to read about scars or wants links to animal rescue places visit the scars website at www.scarscare.org I will warn people now that the rescue stories are really hard to read (you will need kleenex) and there are pictures. On the "available for adoption page" I believe right now there is one really sad story and picture, so don't say I didn't warn you. There are also "Look at me now" stories about dogs who have been adopted and are doing great.

I'm done now, thanks for reading :biggrin:

[Keri]

The problem with buying a puppy from a pet store is almost No reputable breeder could in good conscious sell to a pet store NOT KNOWING where the puppy was going to end up. Also, selling to a pet store decreases the risk that the puppy's owners are going to be able to get a hold of that breeder when the genetic issues turn up.
That being said, those pet store puppies still need good homes, it's a difficult situation... I guess when you buy one you should just know what you're getting yourself into and GET PET INSURANCE BEFORE issues arise so your *** will be covered ;)

That's my 2cents.

Also: just because it only has 3 legs doesn't mean it won't be a great dog, it doesn't affect them the way it does many people....dogs are a little bit wonderful in that respect :)

[EmilyB]

Thanks dsaundry.

[EmilyB]

When you purchase from a breeder you get the dog(Its basic needs are met how?).

It's okay, we understand you haven't met good breeders so you wouldn't really know the answer to that. :wink:

A good breeder will be there with you for the lifetime of your dog.

[EmilyB]

Fishoholic, awesome about SCARS. :mrgreen: There are some really great things coming out of that rescue. We have ARF here around Calgary. I know a guy with a three-legged dog from there, he's actually rescued five from them. :biggrin:

[Zoaelite]

It's okay, we understand you haven't met good breeders so you wouldn't really know the answer to that. :wink:

A good breeder will be there with you for the lifetime of your dog.

I'm sorry you just turned a perfectly good debate into a personal attack. Do not tell me that I have not met a good breeder because you dont know me for one and for two I have a dog from *edit* and a dog from a highly certified breeder and I have no use for the breeder after but I definantly have a use for *edit*.

[fishoholic]

Fishoholic, awesome about SCARS. :mrgreen: There are some really great things coming out of that rescue. We have ARF here around Calgary. I know a guy with a three-legged dog from there, he's actually rescued five from them. :biggrin:

Thank-you for that. I could go on and on about some of the horror stories but the thing that keeps you going is the success stories and knowing that every dog deserves a "Fur-ever" (as we like to say) home. We also have adoption days on Saturdays at Taliz in Edmonton (check scars website for more info and times) quite often, in case anyone in Edmonton wants to see some dogs/puppies and sometimes cats too. :biggrin:

[chevyjaxon]

I bought my Dog from the S.P.C.A simply because i dont support any pet stores period i do buy fish from there but that is the only exception the animals in the spca come from irresponsible owners who did not think before taking this animal home the animal did not ask to end up in the shelter. the people who breed are there simply to make their wallets fat and dont care if the animal they put in the pet store ever gets a home. the bottom line is Pet stores are there purely for profit the spca will only charge you the amount it costs for them to board an animal. just thinking about this topic makes me so angry i cannot even think oh yeah did i mention that it should not even matter what breed the dog is they all think and feel and only do what you teach them even the most crossbread dog is capable of the most amazing things ive had many dogs in my life and all of them have impressed me with there abillity to learn and not one was pure bred
BTW this is what you can get from the SPCA he is not pure bred by anymeans but he is my best freind
2425

[Aquattro]

Now as far as purchasing from a Breeder compared to a store goes I'm going to argue the store is a better solution.

Wow. I just have no reply to this. Um, nope, nothing.....

[tencats]

I fostered the pup in question (my children named her Popcorn) and can assure you all, she did not come from a puppy mill, but was more likely rescued from a ditch or garbage dump, and that she was well cared for and loved for the 3 weeks she was at my home. I volunteer for an animal rescue that goes out on a regular basis and rescues animals from ditches, garbage dumps, landfills, kill shelters, even from under outhouses. We don't have facilities, but all our animals go into foster care after being fully vetted. Popcorn was spayed, vaccinated and microchipped at the time of her leg amputation, and then she came to me (with her 3 littermates) for recovery and socialization. Her leg was amputated on the advice of a very supportive vet clinic that we deal with. We ADOPT them out of a supportive pet store, where adoption questionairs are filled out, as they would thru any rescue, and the animals are microchipped, so, despite our best efforts to ensure our animals go to their forever home, if they ever end up in a shelter, they will find their way back to us. We care very much for the animals in our care, and whatever rehabilitation they need, we give it to them. We believe that a 3 legged pup, a blind kitten, or a deaf dog, all deserve a chance at life. If you need to learn more, check out www.petsforlife.ca

[marie]

I fostered the pup in question (my children named her Popcorn) and can assure you all, she did not come from a puppy mill, but was more likely rescued from a ditch or garbage dump, and that she was well cared for and loved for the 3 weeks she was at my home. I volunteer for an animal rescue that goes out on a regular basis and rescues animals from ditches, garbage dumps, landfills, kill shelters, even from under outhouses. We don't have facilities, but all our animals go into foster care after being fully vetted. Popcorn was spayed, vaccinated and microchipped at the time of her leg amputation, and then she came to me (with her 3 littermates) for recovery and socialization. Her leg was amputated on the advice of a very supportive vet clinic that we deal with. We ADOPT them out of a supportive pet store, where adoption questionairs are filled out, as they would thru any rescue, and the animals are microchipped, so, despite our best efforts to ensure our animals go to their forever home, if they ever end up in a shelter, they will find their way back to us. We care very much for the animals in our care, and whatever rehabilitation they need, we give it to them. We believe that a 3 legged pup, a blind kitten, or a deaf dog, all deserve a chance at life. If you need to learn more, check out www.petsforlife.ca (http://www.petsforlife.ca)

Which just goes to show you can never assume anything because we all know what happens when we assume :mrgreen:

Thanks for chiming in and setting the record straight ten cats

[chevyjaxon]

I agree all animals deserve a chance at life but supporting a store over the spca is the wrong choice in my opinion. the spca will be there to foster forever, the pet store is there only as long as people are willing to buy that being said that 3 legged dog may wind up in the spca where they dont care if the dog has 3 legs they only care about one thing, finding him a loving home. the pet store will not sell a three legged dog because they consider that puppy to be defective but forget that he requires a family and a chance at life too

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Wow. I just have no reply to this. Um, nope, nothing.....

I have a pretty long winded reply,Im pretty sure its along the lines of what your holding back .................................................. .................................................. ............................................. these dots will have to suffice .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................................
this is a family board as I recall............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................holy outer space batman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Im gona have a beer, my brain hurts.

[Slick Fork]

A friend of mine owns several rental properties, the Red Deer Petland actually phoned him because one of his tenants was in there trying to buy a dog. They asked him a bunch of questions about the house, yard, pet policy, stability of the hopeful pet-owners. In the end the STORE decided that they would be unsuitable dog owners and they were turned down.

I know, it's not quite a breeder running you through a polygraph machine but it's something. The only question I was asked when I bought my Border Collie from a private breeder was if I would pay with cash or cheque.

I have no problem with petland helping adopt out abandoned or abused animals, these poor guys need all the help they can get. I'm not a big fan of the puppy windows though.

[EmilyB]

Tencats, how can you see her there in that glass box? My god, you must so want to get her back?? :cry:

If you need her fostered, I will do that and I assure you, she will find the very best forever home.

[tencats]

Popcorn was rescued, not by a pet store, but by an animal rescue group. The pet store helps us adopt out animals. It would be nice if we had our own facilities to adopt them out from, but we do not, and we'd rather spend what money we have on the direct care of the animals. Our rescue has been in operation for over 10 years, and will continue to operate with, or without, the pet store. If one of our animals lands itself at the SPCA, it is returned to us, not the pet store. The pet store is simply acting as an adoption center for us.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Everyone's making lots of money, that's all I know. The breeders aren't these altruistic pet versions of Mother Theresa who lay down their lives for the welfare of all four-legged beasties. No...they're in it to make money! Sure sure, they may love dogs. Yada yada yada. But I think they BREED for money. They are a business.

So is *edit*. If they truly are calling potential dog owners and trying to determine the appropriateness of a particular match, I think that's just fantastic.

But I do also hate the puppy windows. I second that...amen brother. Or sister. I forget who said it. And the kitty cages also make me sad. The sad, lonely looks they give you, desperate for attention....*sigh*

[EmilyB]

Popcorn was rescued, not by a pet store, but by an animal rescue group. The pet store helps us adopt out animals. It would be nice if we had our own facilities to adopt them out from, but we do not, and we'd rather spend what money we have on the direct care of the animals. Our rescue has been in operation for over 10 years, and will continue to operate with, or without, the pet store. If one of our animals lands itself at the SPCA, it is returned to us, not the pet store. The pet store is simply acting as an adoption center for us.

I am serious tencats. Take Popcorn back. Out of there. I can honestly tell you I will care for her better. Please. PM me.

[christyf5]

Hey everyone,

Great debate and all that but I like Canreef and would rather it stay online, so if you could leave store names out of it that would be fabulous. Don't put any asterisks in with most of the letters or anything because then I have to edit it out anyway, if you could just leave out the name that would be great, I don't have to camp out here overnight. My runny nose and aching back salute you!

Thanks and continue on :biggrin:

[chevyjaxon]

the windows suck yes they are imprisoned looking on at us with those sad eyes while we move about and forget about them shortly after as we begin to think what we will do for dinner somebody pass me a big brick we may throw at these windows

i have nothing more to say, im depressed, its time for work anyway:sad:

[EmilyB]

Sorry Christy for all the editing....:redface: I guess I'll stay away from the monkey shop of horrors then...........
:razz:

[EmilyB]

It's a good thing you are a cat person... Drew.:lol:

There is an awesome looking cat in there right now that needs a rescue, it's ears were frozen off.

[EmilyB]

The breeders aren't these altruistic pet versions of Mother Theresa who lay down their lives for the welfare of all four-legged beasties. No...they're in it to make money! Sure sure, they may love dogs. Yada yada yada. But I think they BREED for money. They are a business.



I'm not sure, but is this what you got out of this thread Drew, or were you being facetious??? :biggrin:

[fishoholic]

Popcorn was rescued, not by a pet store, but by an animal rescue group. The pet store helps us adopt out animals. It would be nice if we had our own facilities to adopt them out from, but we do not, and we'd rather spend what money we have on the direct care of the animals. Our rescue has been in operation for over 10 years, and will continue to operate with, or without, the pet store. If one of our animals lands itself at the SPCA, it is returned to us, not the pet store. The pet store is simply acting as an adoption center for us.

There are a few pet shops (bigger named ones) that do work with rescue organizations to help adopt out animals. Usually if a dog goes to one of these stores they are in a large X-pen or metal crate/cage. They are brought there on a Sat or Sun (near the start of the day) by their foster family and are picked up that same day. The cats sometimes will stay longer. At these stores it is clearly advertised that the animal is from such and such organization and their adoptions fees and application process applies (which is usually 2 pages long, like the ones you see at the spca) and is subject to approval from the rescue organization. Each of these animals usually have a clipboard (like the ones you see in the spca) with the animals name and information on it. Also (as far as I'm aware) most dogs/cats from legit rescue organizations adoption fees should be about $200-$350 not like the "window" dogs you see being sold for $1000 and more.

[G1GY]

I bought my rottweiler from what many might concider a backyard breeder 9 years ago. I bought her after looking at many that were CKC registered and not at all great dogs imo. (Super long docked tails, Dewclaws not done, skittish and not very confident parents just to name a couple of things.) This wasn't what I expected from breeders who are registering dogs with the CKC. My dog is now 9 years old and is in excellent health. The vet allway's comments on how great of shape she's in for an old gal.

I'd buy the right dog from a backyard breeder any day of the week.

[Delphinus]

Cats and dogs and all animals really deserve to be treated well. I think for anyone's value set to truly be meaningful you can't apply said values discriminately. At this point in my life I choose to not have a dog in my life, and yet I have cats, but I would be bothered equally by bad treatment of dogs as I would of cats. And yet, I put up with derogatory comments from friends (and family members, for that matter) who consider themselves "dog lovers" but think nothing about joking about killing cats or something. That sort of thing truly disgusts me..

[EmilyB]

It's okay Tony, we all eventually progress from cats to dogs....:lol:

[EmilyB]

Gary, it's not about that. I had backyard puppies many years ago. It drove me nuts to make sure they went to the right homes etc.

[fishoholic]

It would be nice if we had our own facilities to adopt them out from, but we do not, and we'd rather spend what money we have on the direct care of the animals.

Just so you know there are places, usually large pet stores or doggy daycares (like Tailz) that will let you hold adoption days for free at their centers. With enough volunteers you can usually adopt out a few dogs through one of these events. Also ask your local news station if your organization can do a segment showcasing the animals for you have up for adoption. In Edmonton Global lets scars showcase a couple of dogs every Sat. morning towards the end of their news broadcast. It's great publicity and it's free :biggrin:

[fishoholic]

Gary, it's not about that. I had backyard puppies many years ago. It drove me nuts to make sure they went to the right homes etc.

I think the idea is to try to insure that the person/store selling the dog isn't just selling it make money, but that they are also honestly looking for a good home for the dog as well. I should also note that no matter where the dog/cat comes from once they are in this world they deserve to be treated humanly and given every chance possible for a good life. Also I can't stress enough please spay and neuter your pets!

[EmilyB]

I am serious tencats. Take Popcorn back. Out of there. I can honestly tell you I will care for her better. Please. PM me.


Please.

[EmilyB]

I think the idea is to try to insure that the person/store selling the dog isn't just selling it make money, but that they are also honestly looking for a good home for the dog as well.

Selling is the key word right?

[G1GY]

Gary, it's not about that. I had backyard puppies many years ago. It drove me nuts to make sure they went to the right homes etc.

I know what you're saying Deb, but I allway's hear people putting so much stock into the greatness of CKC and AKC registration. I grew up spending my weekends with my dad at the GSD club here in Calgary and seen some of the crapiest dogs known to man be sold for huge bucks because of their bloodline and papers. I've also seen some very well known breeders and trainers destroy great dogs for simple flaws in apperance. Also, so many of these dogs from so many great breeders are not the same calliber of dogs we seen in the past.(As recently as the late 70's)

I myself will avoid buying from breeders and petstores in the future and will seek out only non-registered dogs. I think the well known breeders are in it for the money to be had just as much as the next buisness. Many backyard breeders hope to recover what it's costed them on vet care and such and are happy when their puppies find a great home.

Just my opinion though. :biggrin:

[fishoholic]

Selling is the key word right?

Selling or adopting out either way you can usually tell who's just trying to make a quick buck by how much they charge. Scars charges $250 which includes up to date shoots/vet check, microchip, and spay/neuter. I also believe Taliz and Dogspaw give discounts to animals from rescue organizations.

[EmilyB]

I know what you're saying Deb, but I allway's hear people putting so much stock into the greatness of CKC and AKC registration. I grew up spending my weekends with my dad at the GSD club here in Calgary and seen some of the crapiest dogs known to man be sold for huge bucks because of their bloodline and papers. I've also seen some very well known breeders and trainers destroy great dogs for simple flaws in apperance. Also, so many of these dogs from so many great breeders are not the same calliber of dogs we seen in the past.(As recently as the late 70's)

I myself will avoid buying from breeders and petstores in the future and will seek out only non-registered dogs. I think the well known breeders are in it for the money to be had just as much as the next buisness. Many backyard breeders hope to recover what it's costed them on vet care and such and are happy when their puppies find a great home.

Just my opinion though. :biggrin:

That's okay. We spend every other weekend with a breeder who pretty much gives up her life for dogs. I guess it is easy to see another side. :biggrin:

[EmilyB]

Selling or adopting out either way you can usually tell who's just trying to make a quick buck by how much they charge. Scars charges $250 which includes up to date shoots/vet check, microchip, and spay/neuter. I also believe Taliz and Dogspaw give discounts to animals from rescue organizations.

Exactly. A $250 adoption fee is nothing.

[EmilyB]

I hope that tencats can get the dog back for a proper rescue. If not, I doubt I will be able to get the dog. If anyone can, let me know, what is the price? I can definitely foster this dog.

Amen.

[Sebae again]

My wife breeds birds and only gives them the best foods and care. It is only a hobby for her as she spends more money on the birds than she makes while some breeders she knows sell off their'' bad ''birds without disclosing anything or do inbreeding which causes problems. So it all depends on the individual person and if they are doing it for the passion or profit.

[tencats]

A few years ago I would have never set foot in one of those pet stores (not even to buy fish), other than to loudly express my views on them selling mutts from puppy mills. However, times have changed, they've made room and built kennels (with their own money)for rescue animals to be adopted. Ya, they still sell mutts from breeders, but because they work with the rescue's, they've had eye openers and are more selective from where they buy their foo-foo dogs from. Its a step in the right direction. Of couse their making money, but I suppose we should boycott the vet clinic's because they make money off animals too. Our animals are only in those cages for a week or 2, and if they aren't adopted, then they come back to us. If they appear stressed, they come back sooner. Are those cages that different than the ones at the SPCA or Humane Society? where they would be there indefinately? That cage is alot better than the ditch they were found in! and its only temporary. I rescued a cat(not spayed) from an SPCA that sat in a metal cage for a year! How is that okay?!?! I've also rescued a kitten (not spayed) from an SPCA who sat in a metal cage for 4 months without the leg amputation surgery she needed. Not all SPCA's, Humane Society's or Animal Rescue's are created equal. If Popcorn is not adopted shortly, she will be coming back to us. You are more than welcome to go and adopt her if you can provide her with a forever home! As I said before, go look at www.petsforlife.ca and see how many we save, and our adoption procedures, before you pass judgement. I don't understand how rescuing animals and adopting them out is a bad thing. Yes we do it thru a pet store, do you have a better idea? Or just critisisms? You gonna build us a big adoption center, and provide us with the staff and volunteers to run it? We'd welcome it! But until then, we're gonna go with what works. And if the adoption fee's are a bit high for you, take a look at our vet bills some time! Rescuing animals isn't cheap, they don't all arrive spayed, neutered, vaccinated and in perfect health.

[pandafishowner]

Cats and dogs and all animals really deserve to be treated well. I think for anyone's value set to truly be meaningful you can't apply said values discriminately. At this point in my life I choose to not have a dog in my life, and yet I have cats, but I would be bothered equally by bad treatment of dogs as I would of cats. And yet, I put up with derogatory comments from friends (and family members, for that matter) who consider themselves "dog lovers" but think nothing about joking about killing cats or something. That sort of thing truly disgusts me..

I'm a cat person too. I've had my two cats for 12 and 10 years. We had dogs when I was a kid but I never bonded with any of them. I prefer my cats over a dog any day. I hear you on the friends/family and their "jokes" about cats. :rolleyes:

[dsaundry]

So far from watching all the responses to this thread I think we can all agree on the passion we all have for the well being of animals. I think its also fair to say that there are no doubts that there are good and bad in all pet shops, breeders, and even shelters. I think we can all agree that that this thread has sparked a lot of debate and interest..Sorry Der Iron Chef I guess there are a lot of lazy minds here. Interesting how many responses you put in.:biggrin: So other than some emotions that ride high at times it is nice to see that there is so much concern about the care of all our animals. Cats, Dogs, Fish whatever..Thats why there are so many great pics of them on this website. We all have the freedom to agree or disagree with what is on any thread started by any member that is what Forum is all about. I may not agree with some of the censorship but I understand the staff's position. So long as we dont resort to name calling this is one of the best forums around. So keep your frowns upside down and have a great day.:biggrin:

[iansfishy]

so i have a question. I have six dogs. A Catahoula couger hound from louisianna, three border collies and two blue heelers. the hound and the two oldest border collies are allowed in the house. the other three have never set foot in my house. ( just trying to give you some background). not that i dont let them in my house but they simply are uncomfortable inside. They are working dogs ( I have a ranch and there is nothing more useful then good dogs). my hound has one eye and half of one ear from a well aimed whack from a couger a couple years back. He was doing his job and what he is bred for. he loves my young daughter and she loves him, so he is retiring in the comfort of our home. my two older collies breed every couple years and always these pups are taken by other ranchers who utilise them for work (usually after being with their parents long enough to learn a thing or two) I dont charge anything for the dogs, but if the pups dont work out for the ranchers, (because they are too timid or as we say not "cowy" enough they are brought back to me and i have to take these dogs to the local livestock feed sales store so they can sell them.( not a pet store) Its that or i would have twenty dogs! I dont breed becuse i think its fun or becuase im too cheap to get my dogs fixed 90% of the pups are very, very useful, and are having great lives doing what they are bred and raised to do. there is nothing better then seeing a dog doing what it loves. which is what a lot of people forget. before getting a dog for looks, think about its suitability in your life and how your lifestyle is going to affect the dog. Now my question for those "backyard breeders" dissaprovers - am i running a puppy mill? because im not a certified breeder. not one of my dogs has ever had a hip problem or any disease found with " certified pure bred breeders". My heeler even "slipped one past the goalie" once and I always get comments on the border collie / heeler pups. Every one of the five pups is a great working or family dog. Call me insensitive but i dont have the time or energy to be finding out about the health and welfare of every dog that has come from me. i like hearing about them but that is the extent. I am totally against people breeding dogs for the purpose of selling them to pet stores, but they are just the middle man. you cant say that alot of pure bred dogs from breeders dont end up in the same situation as a cros bred mutt from someones house. They gotta come from somewhere. I STILL SEE NO PROOF OF SAID "PUPPY MILL"?
now i just got a quick story - i was in langly a month ago with my two heelers ( they pretty much live in my truck) i cant drive into the field without them getting in the back. i stayed at my cousins house in the "burbs" for two days, all the time my dogs where in the box of my truck, at night and all day except for the couple times i took them for runs. If they arent working they sleep and lay in the truck they like it and they protect it fiercly. Now my cousins neighbor had the nerve to call the SPCA about my dogs that where being treated sooooooooooooooooooo badly in the back of my truck. I simply told the SPCA lady and my cousins nosy neighbour that if they felt so strongly that they where more then welcome to try and drop the tailgate but if the valued their arms i suggested they didnt. That is what those dogs are bred to do. They are not mean dogs. my young daughter plays with them all the time. But they know there job. my point is before preaching about pet stores and puppy mills consider your own actions towards the reason you are purchasing said dog and how in a large circle in one way or the other you do support their BREEDING and before you cut someone down because of how you feel they are treating their dogs take a moment and think before letting the accusations fly. But i guess everyone who has ever bought a dog for a thousand bucks from a dealer has had it live for fifty years, had never had a problem with them and has never taken that dog to a shelter! By the way my heelers are having pups in april. The pups are already spoken for. Call the SPCA

[fishoholic]

if the adoption fee's are a bit high for you, take a look at our vet bills some time! Rescuing animals isn't cheap, they don't all arrive spayed, neutered, vaccinated and in perfect health.

Out of curiosity what are your adoption fees? Scars is $250 for any dog no matter how high their vet bill got. Which btw for some dogs their vet bills total in the thousands of dallars range.

[michika]

I paid $135 for my rescue, more then worth it for a great companion.

[fishoholic]

I dont charge anything for the dogs, but if the pups dont work out for the ranchers, (because they are too timid or as we say not "cowy" enough they are brought back to me and i have to take these dogs to the local livestock feed sales store so they can sell them.( not a pet store) Its that or i would have twenty dogs! I dont breed becuse i think its fun or becuase im too cheap to get my dogs fixed 90% of the pups are very, very useful, and are having great lives doing what they are bred and raised to do. there is nothing better then seeing a dog doing what it loves. which is what a lot of people forget. before getting a dog for looks, think about its suitability in your life and how your lifestyle is going to affect the dog. Now my question for those "backyard breeders" dissaprovers - am i running a puppy mill? because im not a certified breeder.


As I noted before a true puppy mill stacks the dogs (10-30 dogs, usually small cute popular breeds) in cages on top of one another only letting the dogs out from the cage to breed. They also charge lots of $$$ for their dogs and they like to tell people they can cross breed whatever type of dog you want so you can get that certain look your after. I know this for a fact because we've rescued dogs from places like this.

Since it sounds like you are not doing this then I would say no you are not running a puppy mill, probably no were near it.

Maybe I'm confused but IMO there is nothing wrong with breeding dogs backyard or certified if #1 you are doing it for the right reasons #2 you are trying to find proper homes for them, and (most importantly) #3 you are taking good care of the dogs you are breeding. Good care to me means: if they are in kennels/dog runs you take them for walks/let them run around in a backyard/feild, brush them, play with them, give them water and food, and let the dogs know they are loved.

When someone is breeding animals just to make money, they don't care who the animal goes home with as long as they get paid, and they keep the dog in inhumane conditions, that's when I have a big problem with it.

I would also like to say that if you have a boy dog who isn't fixed and you let him run around impregnating others then take no responsibillity for the puppies, get your dog neutered. If you have a girl dog and she comes home pregnant and you don't want to deal with the puppies PLEASE don't take the puppies out back and shoot them in the head one by one (yes this happens, sometimes we make it out to recuse the puppies before it does, and sometimes we don't :cry: ) just spay your dog, and you wont have to worry about it.

[Aquattro]

I feel the need to clarify something here. When I say a reputable breeder, I am not sanctioning any CKC or AKC breeder as inclusively being reputable because of said memberships or registrations. A reputable breeder is just that; a breeder with a good reputation for long term successful and ethical breeding. If someone performs this type of breeding in their backyard, fine. You don't need to be a huge commercial kennel, you need to be a thoughtful ethical person with more concern for the fate of your breed and the fate of your pups in particular. You give more concern to these things than you do profit. The good breeders I know do not generally even see profit, they mostly cover expenses of something they love doing.
What we're against is the commercial breeding that puts health/long term quality aside for the sake of making a buck. This is doing the dogs and the owners a disservice and nobody but the breeder ends up winning. I don't care where you breed, it's how you do it. Get vet checks, screen genetic diseases and try your best to not propagte known issues. This is being responsible. If you miss something in screening, be propared to stand behind your sale for the life of the dog.

[UnderWorldAquatics]

please spay and neuter your pets!

Can I spin the wheel Bob???
Sorry, couldnt resist....;)

Great posts by the way from most of ya'll! I agree that breeders should take responsibility. When I got Zeus it was like getting interrogated at Guatanomo, which is how it should be!

[fishoholic]

[QUOTE=UnderWorldAquatics;303952]Can I spin the wheel Bob???
Sorry, couldnt resist....;)

QUOTE]

:lol: You know... after I worte that, I was tempted to add "Sorry for going all Bob Barker on you" :lol:

[fishoholic]

I feel the need to clarify something here. When I say a reputable breeder, I am not sanctioning any CKC or AKC breeder as inclusively being reputable because of said memberships or registrations. A reputable breeder is just that; a breeder with a good reputation for long term successful and ethical breeding. If someone performs this type of breeding in their backyard, fine. You don't need to be a huge commercial kennel, you need to be a thoughtful ethical person with more concern for the fate of your breed and the fate of your pups in particular. You give more concern to these things than you do profit. The good breeders I know do not generally even see profit, they mostly cover expenses of something they love doing.
What we're against is the commercial breeding that puts health/long term quality aside for the sake of making a buck. This is doing the dogs and the owners a disservice and nobody but the breeder ends up winning. I don't care where you breed, it's how you do it. Get vet checks, screen genetic diseases and try your best to not propagte known issues. This is being responsible. If you miss something in screening, be propared to stand behind your sale for the life of the dog.

Well said.

[EmilyB]

Yes, very well said Brad. Backyards have nothing to do with the term. :lol:

I would extend my own personal definition of puppy mills to include breeders who produce inventory to stock pet stores.

And I honestly can't come to terms with a pet store profiting from rescue animals. Is the option there to adopt directly from the rescue org?

The head office of the store said the dog would be moved to better housing if required.

So we all hope things go well for her.

Happy tails to you all. Or no tails, whatever...:lol:

[Ephraim]

"And I honestly can't come to terms with a pet store profiting from rescue animals. Is the option there to adopt directly from the rescue org?"

How do they profit from this? Other than selling associated product.

[wolf_bluejay]

Years ago me and my wife bred chihuahua's. This was never done for the sake of a buck... The first few batches did go to a pet store. And much to my surprise, they would not take them without an "inspection". They shop owner came out to the house, met the dogs and looked at what we had for the pups. As well, he was very clear that they would not take the dogs until 10 weeks (not that we wanted them to go sooner).

The only reason we stopped going through the pet store was the fact that the pet store was not to particular on who they would SELL them to. The last 2 batches we sold ourselves so we could screen the potential buyers. To this day (8 years later) we have most of those that bought stay in contact.

These dogs were bred not for the money, but becuase raising little pups can be rewarding. And most stores WILL NOT BUY FROM MILLS. Usually if word gets around that they sell anything from a puppy mill, there business is over. It is just not worth it for a store to loose most of it's business to dave a few hundred bucks. Think about the way you buy fish, do you see any stores wanting to buy cyanide caught fish?


All I am getting at, is that the stores are mostly quite good, and most breeders do it because the love doing it. I hate to say it, but most of the problems out there are from irresponsible BUYERS. We turned away 3 times as many people as we actually sold to. Far too many people see a cute puppy, buy it, and then are unable to correctly care for it.
I don't blame the stores, or the breeders. How many times have there been complaints about some store selling a fish that would not work in someone's tank, and everyone blames the store. What about the guy buying the fish without doing a little research FIRST. Same goes for dogs. I have never seen a store keep a huge dog in a pen for any length of time, but yet I have a 150 lbs dog living next door to me in a yard that is 15' X 20' and never let out.
Let's put some blame where it belongs, there is a reason that all of these "rescue" groups exist in the first place. And they rarely have to "rescue" from a pet store.

[Ephraim]

Well wolf, according to Emily, you are a puppy mill. Congrats :shocked!:

[Aquattro]

Well wolf, according to Emily, you are a puppy mill. Congrats :shocked!:

I'm pretty sure that after 6 pages of this, you STILL haven't read all the words. Please stop putting words in other people's mouths. I've just read all the posts again, and nowhere does EmilyB say that wolf is a puppy mill.

IMO Wolf is, or was at that time, an inexperienced hobbyist breeder that has since determined that selling pups to the pet store is not a great idea. Whether he does any genetic screening isn't mentioned, or if this is required with these dogs. In time, he may end up being a reputable breeder. Or may not. Time determines this.
Until then, stop telling people what YOU think EmilyB is thinking. So far you're wrong in most instances. And I know Emily, if she wants to say something about wolf, she'll do it herself!

[Ephraim]

Actually she did infer that by saying "I would extend my own personal definition of puppy mills to include breeders who produce inventory to stock pet stores."

Since Wolf bred puppies that went to a pet store, that would make them a puppy mill operator by Emily's logic. No?

[Aquattro]

Actually she did infer that by saying "I would extend my own personal definition of puppy mills to include breeders who produce inventory to stock pet stores."

Since Wolf bred puppies that went to a pet store, that would make them a puppy mill operator by Emily's logic. No?

No, it would not. Wolf is not in the business of producing inventory for pet stores. He did it once, and realized that it wasn't a good idea for the benefit of his pups and did not do it again. He made a mistake. He learned from it.

[Ephraim]

Also Reef Raf, i noticed you used the phrase "reputable breeder" in your last post. Saying that Wolf may end up being a reputable breeder. According to you this is not possible. Earlier, i tried to get you to clarify your views on the phrase "reputable breeder" by saying....

"So reef_raf, by your rational, no matter the caliber of a dog breeder and the amount of care the put into producing healthy, happy puppies conforming to breed standards, if they sold thier litter to a pet store they would cease to be a reputable breeder? This one feature will erase all other indications of a good reputation?"

You replied to this by saying, "Yes, exactly. Now you're getting my point. Good breeders do not sell to pet shops, they just don't."

So how could Wolf ever become a repuatable breeder having sold his dogs to a Pet Store? You seemed fairly absolute in your statement. I am confused, I do read the posts and you don't seem to make much sense.

[Ephraim]

No, it would not. Wolf is not in the business of producing inventory for pet stores. He did it once, and realized that it wasn't a good idea for the benefit of his pups and did not do it again. He made a mistake. He learned from it.


Actually, it was posted that the first FEW batches of puppies went to a Pet store. Few usually indicates plural, maybe you should read more closely.

[Aquattro]

Actually, it was posted that the first FEW batches of puppies went to a Pet store. Few usually indicates plural, maybe you should read more closely.


Ok, few. Then he realized it was wrong. Lesson still learned.

[Aquattro]

I am confused,.

And there is the problem. Now, I said a reputable breeder does not sell to pet stores. Wolf sold to pet stores, and that, IMO, disqualifies him as a reputable breeder. He has since stopped doing that. Now my last phrase was that in time, he may or may not become a reputable breeder. If he continues breeding, and gains a good reputation, he could become a reputable breeder. And he no longer sells to pet stores, which meets one of the criteria. While he did sell, then no, he did not meet my definition of "reputable". That can change.
Now please stop trying to twist all of this for the sake of arguing.

[Aquattro]

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, me and my pound puppy are going for a run at the lake. You and your dogs have a great weekend!! :)

[Ephraim]

but you agreed that "This one feature will erase all other indications of a good reputation?"

So the reputable breeder vs non-repuatable breeder argument is not as absolute as you would have previously indicated?

[Aquattro]

but you agreed that "This one feature will erase all other indications of a good reputation?"

So the reputable breeder vs non-repuatable breeder argument is not as absolute as you would have previously indicated?


did you see my last post?? My dog is bouncing at the door. Gotta run. Agree with me. Don't agree with me. Don't care. Take your dog to the park. Have a great day.

[Ephraim]

sorry i missed it, have a great weekend. I'm more of a cat person.

[somethingfishy1973]

Now I have done my research, years of it.
We need to be very careful of the words we choose!
This is an intresting thread. I would like to point out a few things though. When you use the term "puppy mill" you are enpowering a movement of animal rights activists that are lobbying (to be political) for the complete liberation of animals. They made up the term! No more animals of any type in any sort of way are to be kept by humans. No more hamburgers, no more medical advancment, no more guide dogs for the blind, no more puppies in the window, no more FISH, no more CORAL. Everytime you use that term as a way of defining a sub standard breeding facility you are helping to support their mandate.

I would also like to touch on another point quickly. Everyone seems so eager to support the Humane Society (S.P.C.A) As I do as well and I would agree that it is better to have them then not, however the SPCA works with the AFAC (Alberta Farm Animal Care), in an effort with ALPS (Alberta Livestock Protection System) in an effort to HELP feed lots and factory farms in Alberta reconize the importance of husbandry of the animals. Hypocritical? The very idea that they can be associated with this type of industry and yet be looked at as a moral staring point for animal rights folks just blows my mind!

Anyway I am new here and there is tons of cool things in here! Great job!

[dsaundry]

Take a look at this....even dogs with issues can bring happiness to their owners.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2322849743749379276&hl=en-CA

hope this link works

[kari]

Cats are inferior to dogs.
Cats dig in their litter box and then walk on your food preparation surfaces.

[fishoholic]

And there is the problem. Now, I said a reputable breeder does not sell to pet stores. Wolf sold to pet stores, and that, IMO, disqualifies him as a reputable breeder. He has since stopped doing that. Now my last phrase was that in time, he may or may not become a reputable breeder. If he continues breeding, and gains a good reputation, he could become a reputable breeder. And he no longer sells to pet stores, which meets one of the criteria. While he did sell, then no, he did not meet my definition of "reputable". That can change.
Now please stop trying to twist all of this for the sake of arguing.

Do you feel like you're banging your head on a wall, I know I would if I was you! I hoped you had a nice walk with your dog, and thanks for stating the obvious.

[wolf_bluejay]

Well, according to most "certified" beeders I was a puppy mill. There seems to be a lot of resentment between "backyard" breeders and CKC breeders.
But, the last time I was at a CKC breeder, they had multiple dogs, and did breed the dogs for the MONEY. However I have also seen a real "puppy mill". There were 10 dogs being bred and cross bred. the puppy's we fed the minimal amount of food to keep them alive, ya know, to cut costs down.

Outside of papers, what is all that different between puppy mills and registered breeders --- intent and love for the animals. The puppies we bred always had enough food and attention that they were not aggressive.
The mother of our pups did come "rescued" from a mill. She always fought over food (when there is not enough, dogs will fight over it).

The only reason we stopped selling to the pet store is that with Chihuahua's there is quite a selection of owners to pick from (one has a little helmet and leather jacket to ride on her Harley with her).

There was responsible genetic/family tree selection involved with breeding, almost all the owners we sold to are aware of who in this city are "family" and who not to breed with. However, we routinely run into people that ask to breed with the male that we had (passed away now), without asking about family history. They even seem to get upset when we tell them that they really should not breed bother and sister together.

We bred because raising puppies is an enjoyable hobby, after 5 batches the mother "retired".

With all that said, once you have actually SEEN a puppy mill you will be much more careful about what you call one. They are a disturbing sight, and yes there is places that have stacks of cages with dogs that are allowed out only to breed, and the food is in short supply. Compared to this, I would NEVER call your average backyard breeder a puppy mill.

BTW, usually puppy mills will bring the dogs away from "home" to show them, because if you see where they are raised, not only would you not buy from them, but call the SPCA as well. Always ask to see the dogs and the parents as well when buying a dog.

And "certified" breeders calling backyard breeders "puppy mills" is just propaganda to keep their prices and profit up. How is that intent any different than the puppy mills other than a piece of paper.

The bottom line is that puppy mills are in fact rare. Stores will not by from them, most people will not either without some scam (having the dogs at a different house to show, bringing the dogs to you, etc.) The way to stop them is pretty much what we all do -- stop buying from them.
And the main point I was trying to make is that OWNERS sometimes treat their pets no better than the mills. That is why we stopped selling to the stores. Not because the stores we behaving badly, but because they really are unable to "screen" those that buy.

[tencats]

Cats are inferior to dogs.
Cats dig in their litter box and then walk on your food preparation surfaces.

Dog's eat their own, and other animals feces, then think its okay to lick your face. I'd have to say both cats and dogs have their flaws.:wink:

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Cats are inferior to dogs.
Cats dig in their litter box and then walk on your food preparation surfaces.

This is why you coat the counters with honey and powdered habeneros or other hot as hell concoctions... little buggers learn real quick, got so sick of the damn cats jumping on the counters the second you turn your back, and they damn well know they are not allowed to cuz when you turn and face them(even with a smile on your face) they run for cover cuz they know they are not supposed to be there. Zeus(my great dane)is not allowed to enter the kitchen, and I can put a steak on the floor by his bed and he will stare at it, but he knows its not his to touch unless I say so.....
Im not sure if "cats are inferior to dogs" is the proper statement...???
but they sure are dissobedient,vindictive,sly little buggers ;)
lol!!!!!!

[wolf_bluejay]

Just as a quick little note, I do NOT consider selling to a pet store to be a mistake. If you read what I posted before, the store DID make a very good effort to ensure we did meet their "requirements" before buying the puppies. And there were very strict.

I bred for the pure enjoyment of it, and it was much more enjoyable to sell the puppies myself. The whole "reputable" breeder thing is just a people that forked over MONEY, to become certified trying to protect their investment. What makes a reputable breeder?
One that raises dogs because they love them? My wife cried every time one of the babies left, and usually followed up with the owner. Does a registered breeder love their dogs? or are they all about proft just like the puppy mills, just with fancier cages?

Reputable!?! Reputation? iIf you have a reputation, then you have been doing it long enough that you look at the dogs as MONEY!

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Dog's eat their own, and other animals feces, then think its okay to lick your face. I'd have to say both cats and dogs have their flaws.:wink:

You can train a dog to not lick, Zeus knows not to lick you anywhere! I love cats and dogs, but dogs are more my style....

[Delphinus]

Cats are inferior to dogs.
Cats dig in their litter box and then walk on your food preparation surfaces.
You prepare food on the floor? :neutral: I always thought you were an odd one!! :p

I prefer things like stoves and barbeques myself. My cats never walked all over those .. I imagine if they did, they might not do it a second time. :mrgreen:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Cats are inferior to dogs.
Cats dig in their litter box and then walk on your food preparation surfaces.

Them's are definitely fighting words. And I DO hope you're not serious!

[EmilyB]

What a gorgeous day, even in Calgary. :biggrin:

For those of you telling your stories, cudos. I certainly am not without sin. I have a few cats waiting up there for me for sure.... :wink:

Thirty years ago, things were so different. I lived on a farm too at one time. I did unspeakable things, things that haunt me to this day, but things I had no clue were wrong.

Backyard breeder, hell yah, I let a dog with hip dysplasia breed a dog that wandered into our yard.

So, I was really stupid. Welcome to Southern Alberta, and it doesn't sound like much has changed down there.

The point is, as we become more educated, we just know some choices are better than others. Simply put, we know more now. And THANK DOG for that...

[Aquattro]

And THANK DOG for that...

Amen....

[pandafishowner]

The point is, as we become more educated, we just know some choices are better than others. Simply put, we know more now. And THANK DOG for that...

Ask not what your dog can do for you... but what you can do for your dog :lol: ... hahaha okay, that was lame of me, but whatever.

I think all pet owners make mistakes, as do ALL breeders. But the difference is between the ones that learn from their mistakes and the ones that keep making those mistakes...


BTW: I'll take my lazy butt sink-lovin fat "inferior" kitty over a "superior" dog any day :D My cats don't jump up on the counters, they don't jump onto the stove, though my lazy cat did like sleeping on top of my cupboards at one time... Heck, my cats even knows what it means when I tell them to "get over here" and they're just like dogs with their tails between their legs and those pitiful eyes staring at me. :wink:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Cats are inferior to dogs.
Cats dig in their litter box and then walk on your food preparation surfaces.

I digress...
http://x21.xanga.com/dfa013f101035175266269/m99985002.jpg

But seriously, can't wall just get along? :)
http://xe3.xanga.com/be08057b16c00175266270/m70499058.jpg

[Delphinus]

LOL! Is that the "prerinse cycle" ? :)

[EmilyB]

tencats, can you let me, and the rest of us know, if Popcorn is adopted, moved, or whatever ? If she goes back to you, I would especially want to know. We pretty much limp around here these days anyway....:lol:

[EmilyB]

The thread was never about cats. So get your own thread, ummkaaayyyy...:lol: :mrgreen:

[UnderWorldAquatics]

I digress...


But seriously, can't wall just get along? :)
http://xe3.xanga.com/be08057b16c00175266270/m70499058.jpg

this pic reminds me of Zeus, my 200lb Blue Great Dane. He was a surrogate mother to a litter of 3 dwarfed kittens, they licked little bald patches all over his chest trying to nurse on him, he would just wince once in awhile in pain from the rawness, but let them do whatever they wanted, except for wander, if they left the dog/cat bed, he would go and pick them up in his mouth(a nose poking out one side of his jowls,a head out the other)and deposit them back in his bed.Yes my giant manly dog is a bit of a softie...

[hayles]

???

[hayles]

If the dog is healthy, happy and ready to be adopted then what is the problem..He needs a home
too.

[Aquattro]

If the dog is healthy, happy and ready to be adopted then what is the problem..He needs a home
too.


Right, and Emily is continually offering to foster it until a home is found. The "rescue" guy isn't really responding.....
Would be nice if it had a more comfortable temp home, rather than a wire cage.

[Aquattro]

Oh, and here's some gas for the fire.... My GF and I were talking about rescues, and she was telling me about a certain border collie rescue that will take any dog that the see left in the back of a truck, or tied to a bike rack outside a mall, calling it "abandoned". You come back from buying milk and your dog is gone....nice.

[tencats]

Right, and Emily is continually offering to foster it until a home is found. The "rescue" guy isn't really responding.....
Would be nice if it had a more comfortable temp home, rather than a wire cage.

The pup has been in foster, and now she's at the "adoption center" for a couple of weeks. Are you questioning the quality of care she's had with out any real knowledge of the situation? Have you been to my house? Have you been on a rescue? Crawled under a well used outhouse to rescue pups? Dug thru garbage dumps to find kittens before the hungry dogs do? Perhaps we should have left Popcorn in the ditch for the crows, then you'd have nothing to complain about, out of sight, out of mind, right! I haven't responded because I have better things to do (unlike some people), and I don't run the rescue, I just volunteer here. I'll update you on Popcorn's situation when I know more. Thanks for your concern.

The "rescue" chick

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I think we can all get a little bent out of shape when we feel like someone is insinuating that we don't want what's best for any particular animal....be that through outright neglect, ignorance, etc. When someone does that from a high horse, it seems even worse.

But I think we can all agree that everyone here believes in the humane and fair treatment of all animals....otherwise we wouldn't put so much time and energy into what we do.

Let's chill. Stare at a lava lamp or listen to some Yanni or something. Or go cuddle some animals at the Humane Society....whatever you gotta do ;)

[tencats]

I'd still like to know what the difference is between the cages that most SPCA/Humane Society's use to house their animals, and the ones used at the pet store?
If Emily B is as concerned as she claims to be, why doesn't she contact the media, that's what I would do. Make some noise!
I'm off to do some yoga now...:wink:

The rescue chick
(I've also been called the 'angel of mercy' lol)

[EmilyB]

I'd still like to know what the difference is between the cages that most SPCA/Humane Society's use to house their animals, and the ones used at the pet store?


Sorry, not here. Check out the facilities section on this webpage....

http://www.calgaryhumane.ca/

I never once saw a dog in a wire bottom crate even at the old facility.

Animals shouldn't stand on wire bottoms to make it easier for people to clean up.

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Oh, and here's some gas for the fire.... My GF and I were talking about rescues, and she was telling me about a certain border collie rescue that will take any dog that the see left in the back of a truck, or tied to a bike rack outside a mall, calling it "abandoned". You come back from buying milk and your dog is gone....nice.

Ive heard of people and organizations that do this, and I came across someone that was "trying" to untie Zeus from a outside water tap on the restroom at the beach behind the grand hotel in Kelowna. They pulled the same crap saying I abandoned my dog(I was taking a leak in the public restroom) I was gone all of 3-4mins! Holy Crap!!!!! If you ever want to see me angry............I could have went to jail far assult with a smile that day........ He is very lucky the lady he was trying to be a hero in front of was telling him he should leave, and that the dog looked fine. I could rant for hours about animal activists(some of them). Im as protective of my my dog as I am of my son, so if you touch my dog, I will break your legs;)

[Der_Iron_Chef]

...so if you touch my dog, I will break your legs;)

Note to self: don't touch his dog. :)

[muck]

Im as protective of my my dog as I am of my son, so if you touch my dog, I will break your legs;)
Im sure I would open a can of whoopa$$ too if someone tried to do that to my pup. :eek:

[EmilyB]

The pups are in isolation and on medication now.

[tencats]

Sorry, not here. Check out the facilities section on this webpage....

http://www.calgaryhumane.ca/

I never once saw a dog in a wire bottom crate even at the old facility.

Animals shouldn't stand on wire bottoms to make it easier for people to clean up.

Ya, they have a multi-million dollar facility... we have a house... and a crappy one at that, we take what we can get.
Last time I was in one of the stores, the area for our dogs had chain-link kennels with cement floors behind plexiglass windows. They weren't on wire bottom crates. (and the wire crates are so they don't have to walk in their own excretement, not for easy clean up, wire is much harder to clean than a smooth surface).
I'm still waiting to hear back on how Popcorn is doing. Seing as how your there, and it's a 3 hour drive for me, why don't you run on over to the pet store and tell me if Popcorn is still there, or if she's been adopted, if she's been moved, or what. I would assume, being that you're so concerned for her, that you've been checking in on her?

The rescue chick

[UnderWorldAquatics]

I think we have a cat fight on our hands boys.....

Running for cover............lol

[tencats]

I think we have a cat fight on our hands boys.....

Running for cover............lol

She started it........:wink:

[Aquattro]

I'm gonna end it before it gets ugly(ier). Thanks all for your passionate input, everyone give their dog extra kisses tonight. Cats too. And birds and stuff.