Pumps

[jslaney]

No one seems to be posting so I think now would be a good time to ask a pump question.

Then maybe I can act like a jerk when people try and help me and I will get some free corals. (Someone had to say it)

Onto the question but first I want you all to know that I have completed all available reading on pumps in the canreef library and a little extra on the side.

My system is a 72 gal bow front corner drilled and I am hoping to set up more of a lagoon type tank then full blown reef.

I understand for reefs you need a circulation of about ten times you tank volume not necessarily all provided by your return pump.

I am thinking that for a lagoon I should be ok with a 5 time tank volume return.

I am considering the quite one 3000 or Mag drive 700 for my external return pump. Noise is my biggest concern as I live in a teeny condo and the tank is right by the computer.

Finally the questions...

1. Any comments on personal experience with these pumps?

2. Does my flow rate seem reasonable?

3. How do I make it so my overflow does not sound like a continuous flushing toilet?

4. Should I stop being cheap and just go for the Iwaki and if so is it really $150 better then the others.

Thanks for any answers, Mods feel free to kick this post off the air.

Jon

[mr_alberta]

Hi Jon,

Looking at your pump choices, I assume the pump has to be a submersible pump? If I had to choose one of the two pumps, I would choose a mag 7. I've used many different mag pumps and I've never had a problem with any of them. Another excellent pump to look at is the eheim series of pumps. The build quality of those pumps is excellent but you do pay for that in the end.

What type of standpipe are you using in your tank? A better standpipe design such as a durso, stockman, etc. may help with the noise problem.

[Canuckgod420]

I use the quiet one 4000 on my tank and it goes into the chiller first then the tank and I am happy with the flow.
My wifes 34 gallon cube reef uses a 3000 and we are very happy with these pumps....as for noise they are pretty quiet.
Hope that helps.

[jslaney]

So its 1:1, and maybe an enhiem.

The current standpipe is just your basic flow over the top. I never new about the dursa design until now. Something else to incorporate.

Every bit helps, Thanks.

Jon

[jslaney]

I stole this from some other board.
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Almost all of us have dealt with excessive noise in our aquariums, one of the major ones is overflow noise - this is how to fix it.

Durso Standpipe
http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/stand...pipe_frame.htm

Stockman Standpipe
http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/stand...n_stockman.htm

Hofer Gurgle Buster
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/domitron2/HGB/HGB.html

My only concern with the two designs is that they seem more likely to plug and that scares me. You would have to isolate your overflow box so absolutly no snails made it in. Great idea though I still think I will use it.

Jon.

[Delphinus]

Those overflows styles work well. They all work on the same premise in that water enters the pipe from a point under the surface, thereby eliminating the toilet flushing sound as water gets sucked into pipe. And you have an air input solution because you need air going into the pipe as well.

If built correctly they won't really be prone to clogging, I mean any kind of pipe can clog obviously but do things like put teeth on the overflow, or a strainer (if you go with a Durso), and things won't be able to get in there.

If you're ever in the deep south end of the city, you're welcome to look at my tanks, I have some Durso's going and a Stockman/Hofer derivative, if you're just in need of seeing something in action.

As for pumps .. I think you will be disappointed with the noise level of the Mag drive. They are great pumps, I love them, they are workhorses that just go and go and go for years on end, and they're not too expensive ... but they do rattle.

The Eheims are supposed to be one of the best pumps out there. But you do pay for the premium. I haven't tried one myself yet but I hear only good things about them.

Another option to consider is a Sedra .. I have one on my 65g planted tank and it was the second pump I tried for that tank (first one was a Mag5 and it just made the whole tank and stand howl .. it had just the right resonance). I then tried a Sedra 7000 but it was too much flow - I finally settled on a Sedra 5000 and it's a perfect fit. One, the pump size is physically smaller so it fit in my sump better, and two, the flow was right, and three, although not whisper silent, the noise level was much more within tolerance (this is a tank near bedrooms so it was imperative to be quieter). The Sedra model #'s more or less correspond to the Mag drives. Ie. Sedra 5000, Mag 500; Sedra 7000 Mag 700, etc. etc.

There were other pumps I considered as well, but I don't remember all the names.

The Hydor Seltzer pumps are really nice and quiet but I don't think they come in a size big enough for what you want.

I wouldn't push more than 7 times volume through the sump. Any more and you risk microbubbles in the main tank. I suggest aiming for 5-7 times, and then makeup the additional tank flow with powerheads, closed loops, wavebox, Tunzes or Hydors ... you'll be much happier with the end result. :)

[calkrog]

i have a quiet1 3000 on my 55 gallon, and its nice and quiet, only thing i find with that pump is that is does not always want to start up after being shut off. so if there is a power outage it does not always turn back on and i have to flick the switch on and off several times before it turns on again. but when its running it works fine. very quiet.

[jslaney]

Thanks for the advice everyone,

I was hoping to mount the pump as an external pump which I believe both the quite one and mag drives are capable of.

Tony, you mentioned that you should not have more then 7 time flow through your sump for fears of producing micro bubles. I am assuming you mean the sump volume. Unfortunatly my Sump is only 20 gal and thats all I can really fit under there. That means I will only be able to push roughly 140 gal/hr to the main 72 Gal tank. Thats only a 2 time turnover. Is this correct. I guess I can make up the rest of the flow with power heads but I was hoping to avoid that.

In addition, I would love to check out your tanks and ask you a million questions. Unfortunatly I rarely head to the south. I will give you shout next time I do though.

Just when I thought I was coming to a decision I now have to check out reviews for sedras and enhiems.

On another note. Why dont many people use quite ones. I am assuming they are fairly quite as their name suggests and they put out more flow per dollar then most of the more expensive pumps out there?

Thanks again,

Jon

[Delphinus]

It's just a name :p They didn't used to be all that quiet, the new models may not be too bad but it is just a brand name. I don't have any experience with them, so I don't know how they compare to others. The old models also used to have reliability issues. They were external pumps made of ceramic and they were prone to heat stress cracking the units. The current models are not like that, however, totally different design. They are probably fine pumps.

Anyhow, no - you don't want 2 times turnover. Sorry, I meant whole system turnover. So basically volume of water in the tank, plus volume of water in the sump, minus whatever for rock and so on. With a 72g tank, 20g sump (running at probably half way full roughly - more on this later), you're probably looking at around 80 gals total volume, you want 5-7 times THIS volume per hour (so 480 gallons per hour). Further, you have to look at the pump curve data and figure out what gph it pushes around 4-6 feet of head pressure. So you're probably wanting a pump that's rated for 700gph at 0' head which is going to translate to (hopefully) around 500gph realistically for a sump return.

You can go higher of course, but two things to take into account: the higher the flow, the higher the water level in the tank above the overflow line. And the higher the flow, the faster the water travels in the sump. If air bubbles from the overflow make it to the pump intake, then you'll have persistent microbubbles. So that's why I prefer to not oversize the sump return pump.

But you do want a minimum flowrate so that if you keep a heater in the sump, the heat from that heater is making it to the main tank.

Hope this is making sense, sorry if it's overwhelming.

PS. Forgot the "more about this later" part. Make sure that whatever volume of water in the main tank that is above the overflow and any kind of anti-siphon break in the return plumbing can fit into the sump in the event of a power fail or pump shutoff. If you run the 20g sump at 1/2 way full then you have room for 10g (which is probably plenty). I'm sure you know this but just thought I'd be safe and mention it nonetheless. :)

[jslaney]

That seems much more reasonable. Ya, overfilling you sump seems like a common rookie error which I am sure I will do no matter how much I try to avoid it. I think as long as I fill the tank while the pump is off I should be ok.
I will definitly look more into the sedras.

Thanks again,

Jon

[Delphinus]

One more thought (sorry to keep dumping ideas on you :p ), if you run a pump externally, use flex PVC or at least vinyl hose for the connections to the pump. If you go rigid PVC all the way, the pump vibrations transfer into the plumbing (and sump) and you get a hummmmmmmm kind of effect. Also a mouse pad works well for under the pump to further dampen any pump vibration.

Flex PVC is the best, works/glues exactly the same as rigid PVC, same fittings, etc. you can pick it up from Western Pump in town. You can also get unions there (although some Rona's do carry unions now - nice :) ).

[andresont]

External pumps are always more noise.
If you want it to be quiet Eheim is the most reliable and quiet, to make a quiet oferflow look up durso pipe (http://www.dursostandpipes.com/)

JM2CW

[jslaney]

I had read about the flex PVC somewhere but did not know it was readily avialable. I was thinking of using it due to my poor handyman skills but sound dampening makes it a slam dunk. I was trying to think of what I could put under the pump as well. The mouse pad idea is great.

I was going to go with an external pump due to heat transfer as my condo gets warm in the summer. I deffinitly do not plan on getting a chiller but I really want this quiet. Are internal Pumps really that much quieter?

That Durso link has a much better picture then the one I posted earlier.

Thanks,

Jon

[andresont]

Are internal Pumps really that much quieter?

That Durso link has a much better picture then the one I posted earlier.

Thanks,

Jon

Eheim is silent compare to Mag drives and mag drives are quieter then externals.
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