1 more tang...too many fish?

[Son Of Skyline]

I have a 120gal with a 27gal sump, and I've got quite a few fish. 4 small chromis, a small yellow tang, an average sized kole tang, a small bicolor blenny, and a nice sized lawnmower. I had a naso tang before to control macro, but it died an unexplained death and now my macro is growing again. Would it be too much to add another naso to the mix? I'm running a pretty good skimmer (Canreef skimmer) and everybody else is doing fine. I know about the "tang police" crap. Opinions?


*Flame suit on....just in case :) *

Thanks in advance...

[Son Of Skyline]

Just a bit more clarification. In my attempts to curb this macro problem, my tank also has an emerald crab, sally lightfoot crab, and a tuxedo urchin. None of them even touch the macro (grape caulerpa).

A better question may be....what else can I get to try to eat this stuff if another naso is too much?

I'm in the process of trying to eliminate the nutrients in my tank but it seems this caulerpa problem has haunted me since day 1 of my first reef tank about a year and a half ago.

Thanks again.

[Bob I]

Just a bit more clarification. In my attempts to curb this macro problem, my tank also has an emerald crab, sally lightfoot crab, and a tuxedo urchin. None of them even touch the macro (grape caulerpa).

A better question may be....what else can I get to try to eat this stuff if another naso is too much?

I found the same thing in that my SLF crab did not touch Grape Caulerpa. I have a fairly small patch in the corner of my tank. I have a Lemonpeel Angel who seems to beat the caulerpa down to size. It sure does not get a chance to spread. FWIIW.

[bongy]

Hi Mason,

I keep Powder Brown Tang (Acanthurus japonicus) to control the grape marco-algae problem. When I first setup the tank, I also used lots of macro to help control the nutrient. (Titus can verfiy that!) The powder brown take care of that afterward.

Don't confuse this white-cheek powder brown with Acanthurus nigricans. The one I am talking about is a good reef fish (stay small, easy to keep), the other one is not.

Look here for details.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/GoldRimSs.htm

Bongy

[Son Of Skyline]

Hmmm...looks like more fish options are now available :)

The lemon peel sounds appealing, do they all normally eat caulerpa?

The powder brown tang looks similar to the naso, i wonder if it gets as big.

Do you guys see a problem with overstocking my tank though? Or should I be ok to squeeze one more in?

[Aquattro]

Don't confuse this white-cheek powder brown with Acanthurus nigricans. The one I am talking about is a good reef fish (stay small, easy to keep), the other one is not.

Bongy

Just an example that fish don't read these topics. I had an A. japonicus but it died. I now have an A. nigricans and it is doing very well. go figure :P

[Troy F]

This isn't a flame but I'd think two tangs in a 48" tank would be plenty. If considering the lemon peel, keep in mind that it's probably the most notorious of them all for nipping. Numerous text examples are available. I don't know this because of experience, I took Tullock, Michael etc. for their word. Bob's success isn't long term yet (and believe me I wish you [Bob] the best luck) and is the exception rather than the rule.

[chicki]

what about a rabbitfish? I have a virgates and a foxface...I can't grow anything with them in there...they go crazy over any type of algae. They are also totally non aggressive with each other or other fish.

[bongy]

Brad,

Next time, you need to teach your fish.
"You have to eat well and behave well, it said so by Bob Fenner" :roll:

I guess that's the fun part with keeping fish, every individual fish is kind of different.

[StirCrazy]

I have to agree with Troy, (and I am not a tang police supporter :wink: ) but I have a yellow in a 90 and I personalything a 120 would be the minimum size for two tangs...

Steve

[Bob I]

This isn't a flame but I'd think two tangs in a 48" tank would be plenty. If considering the lemon peel, keep in mind that it's probably the most notorious of them all for nipping. Numerous text examples are available. I don't know this because of experience, I took Tullock, Michael etc. for their word. Bob's success isn't long term yet (and believe me I wish you [Bob] the best luck) and is the exception rather than the rule.

Just curious. by nipping do you mean other fish? Interestingly the Lemonpeel only has two ocellaris for company, and two YT Damsels. One Damsel sometimes likes to assert its territoriality. That behaviour is not tolerated, and the Angel will chase him until the Damsel is out of sight. The rest of the time he does not even look at the damsel. :D

[Troy F]

No, I meant coral tissue and clam mantles. I thought that would've been fairly self-evident considering their infamy.

[zulu_principle]

Just a query for those of use who use the fish resources ?

Scott Michael, who is whom I read for suitable fish, size, etc. says

Minimum Aquarium Size "this is the min. suitable aquarium volume for an adult individual of the species. Of course, juveniles and adolescents can be housed in smaller tanks......."

So if he says

Zebrasoma flavescens
Yellow Tang

Max. Length 7.9"
Min. Aquarium Size: 75 Gallon

How does everyone interpret this data ?

Lets say I buy a 2" yellow tang, I have no idea of his age, does anyone ?

Since its 25% of max length, does an aquarium that is 50% of the minimum work ?

Would like to hear what others think......



Wendell

[Aquattro]

Wendell, when I read something like that, I do adjust for the individual fish. My first tang, a yellow, went in my 45g tank. Which, BTW, had a lot more swimming room than my 75g. So is the bigger tank better? Not this time. The tang is now in my 155g, and still as happy as when it was in the 45. It isn't now nor will it ever be 7.9 inches long!
I think the book is a good baseline with which you form your own opinion.

[Troy F]

I don't think so. I have a really small 1.5" yellow tang in my 155gal reef and I would not put this fish in anything less. I've had a yellow tang in my 72gal and I thought that too small as well. My personal view is that Scott Michael's book is a good guideline for minimum tank sizes but if anything I'd go bigger. A Naso doesn't belong in a 135 in my opinion. There are lots of fish that he lists with a certain size tank that I'd disagree and say they need a bigger tank. Centropyge spp. is a good example in my opinion.

[Bob I]

No, I meant coral tissue and clam mantles. I thought that would've been fairly self-evident considering their infamy.

Not self evident to me, as I have not heard of their infamy. I looked in Tullock,s "Natural Reef Aquariums", there is no mention of the Lemonpeel at all. Fenner gives it only passing mention. I therefore hope I can be forgiven for not knowing. If you can give me more references who condemn the fish I would appreciate it. :? :?

[chicki]

A while ago, I came upon a post that was written by a guy who talked to Scott M. in person. He said he questioned him on "tank sizes" listed in his pocket book. He said that what Scott meant about min. size was meant for *that amount of gallons for that fish* meaning if you have a 135 gallon and have a Naso...then thats it for fish. He would take up the 135 gallon, not him and six other fish. e.g. if you have a 75 gallon and one yellow tang...then you would need a 150 gallon in order to keep two tangs.

[zulu_principle]

What's a "good" reference for what fish "fit into" what size aquarium ?

If its how the fish look, pretty subjective.......



Wendell

[Troy F]

Sorry Bob, I was being a little sarcastic because I thought you were too. Seriously though, are you trying to tell me you had no idea pygmy angels were a theat to certain sessile invertebrates? If you need actual reference you can try Marine Fishes by Michael, The Reef Aquarium Vol 1 by Delbeek and Sprung and I'm guessing here but I'm pretty sure it's in Eric's book, that Burgess Marine Atlas, the Baensch books as well Fossa and Nilsen make some reference to it but I may be reaching a bit there. If you were to do a search on any of the bbs you'd find hundreds of hobbyists that have had to remove their pygmies and most site lemonpeel as one of the worst. I've come across this information in various hobby magazines. Oh yeah, it is also mentioned in that Butterfly and Angel fishes book.

[Troy F]

Wendel, personal experience in my opinion. And yes, it's subjective. You asked for personal opinions. I get claustrophobic easily and watching even small fish in my tank sometimes gets to me.

If you haven't, check out Richard Harker's latest article in the new annual. I'm assuming you have an opinion yourself and are just curious?

My opinion on tangs and surgeons is that the bigger tank you can provide the better. The less competition for the same food source you give them the better. These fish generally defend fairly large territories and when you throw them in a small glass box with competition it adds stress. You may not see it but it'll be there. They can't change their instincts.

I don't really think any fish that'll hit 18" and is built to swim needs to be in a box. I'm inclined to take Ron Shimek's opinion that the only fish that should be kept are those that keep small territories like clowns, certain gobies, dottybacks etc. However, as a good friend once said, "this is a selfish hobby no matter how you look at it so do what you want to the best of your ability". Or something like that.

[zulu_principle]

I have lots of opinions, but mostly I just don't know.

I have a few tangs in a few setups. one being two yellows together, which from what I have read says i should not.....both for the size of the tank & that two yellows don't do well together.

How do I know my fish are happy, I don't, I know they all eat, I know they are all heathly by my standards, but they are in a glass cage, not captive bred (VERY firm supporter and purchaser) and really I don't know.

So I look to the experts, Michael, Fenner, etc. they are not perfect, but published.

I strive to create the best conditions for the species I encounter and wish to establish in my personal ecosystem.

Therefore,

I strive.


Wendell

[Son Of Skyline]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Looks like one of my tangs is gonna have to go because this caulerpa problem is creeping pretty fast. I'll probably get rid of the kole tang, since it's the biggest fish in the tank and I don't really see it eating much algae. Now how am I gonna get him out? Hmmm....

[chicki]

Troy, just out of curiousity?? what do you have for tanks and fish?
Have a great day!

[Troy F]

Here are my tank specs Chicki, I just updated the inhabitants section.

http://www.canreef.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2612

Bob, did I answer your question sufficiently or are you still upset with me? ;)

[Bob I]

Sorry Bob, I was being a little sarcastic because I thought you were too. Seriously though, are you trying to tell me you had no idea pygmy angels were a theat to certain sessile invertebrates?

Actually - no :oops: I was not aware until I read it in Tullock's book, and he made no reference to the Lemonpeel.

I may not have mentioned that mine is in a tank that will soon be FOWLR. There are only a few soft corals in the tank, and he has no interest in them. It is a very engaging fish due to the blue ring around the eye, and I very fond of him.

It was meant as a FWIW that mine appears to eat Grape Caulerpa. I think he eats Valonia too, so I think he can stay here. :D :D

[Troy F]

Tullock's book doesn't really have too strong a warning against mixing Centropyge spp. with corals and clams. The lemon peel is very beautiful, they've tried to tempt me many a time.

[Troy F]

I have lots of opinions, but mostly I just don't know.

I have a few tangs in a few setups. one being two yellows together, which from what I have read says i should not.....both for the size of the tank & that two yellows don't do well together.

How do I know my fish are happy, I don't, I know they all eat, I know they are all heathly by my standards, but they are in a glass cage, not captive bred (VERY firm supporter and purchaser) and really I don't know.

So I look to the experts, Michael, Fenner, etc. they are not perfect, but published.

Wendell

If you look to the experts, why do you have two yellows in box that is too small? I've not read Fenner's book but I know S. Michael wouldn't have told you it was alright.

My whole philosophy is; try follow your conscience to the best of your ability. If you're okay with it at the end of the day and you're within the law, power to you. I, or others, may not agree with you but that is just a topic for discussion.

PS: For the purpose of argument, there are enough facts out there to base an opinion on solid evidence.

PPS: I'm against tangs/surgeons being kept in home aquaria. I'm against the collection of pacific host anemones. I have both in my tank. Therefore, I'm a huge hypocrite. :P

[naesco]

Good decision Son,,

Reefraf do you have a pic of your tang or can you describe the colouring?

[andestang]

Hello Mason,
A little late into the thread and off the topic :? :D , but you mentioned having a bicolor blenny and a lawnmower. I was thinking of that combo in my 150g - they go good together? I have a Bicolor now, he's some character, fun to watch and likes to nip at my arm hairs when I'm cleaning :D sticking up for his territory I suppose :lol:
thanks Ande

[Aquattro]

Reefraf do you have a pic of your tang or can you describe the colouring?

I do have a pic, and I think I posted it here before. It is definately an A. Nigricans. And doing well physically. Mentally I think it's gone a bit loopy though....starting to circle around a corner. here is a pic

http://www.islandreef.ca/post/nig.jpg

[Son Of Skyline]

Hello Mason,
A little late into the thread and off the topic :? :D , but you mentioned having a bicolor blenny and a lawnmower. I was thinking of that combo in my 150g - they go good together? I have a Bicolor now, he's some character, fun to watch and likes to nip at my arm hairs when I'm cleaning :D sticking up for his territory I suppose :lol:
thanks Ande


Well I think this thread has almost nothing to do with my original post anyway :wink:

They seem to get along fine, although I rarely see my lawnmower. The bicolor has been with me since the beginning, so I can imagine it getting territorial if it could, but the lawnmower is twice its size :)

[naesco]

Yep it is a gold rim tang A.nigricans.
How long have you had it?
Your picture shows lots of coral in your tank.
It may need more room to swim and that is the reason it is circling

[Aquattro]

naesco, I've had this fish about 4 months now. Previous to that it was in the LFS for about 2.5 months. They had a really high price on it, so it didn't get sold. I watched it get fatter as time went on and thought it was a good choice. Since it was different than the last one I had, I thought this was the species that did well. The LFS confirmed this (doh!).
So now I have a tang swimming in circles. It eats like a pig, shows growth and does still graze around the tank, but the last 2 weeks has been mostly circles.
I've ordered a Tunze stream and hope that increases the current and O2 in the tank. There is still a fair amount of swimming room. The fish have full access behind the rocks. I had a trigger that did the loops for a while, and then stopped. I'm hoping this guy does the same.
Since I have the largest tank amongst the people I know in Victoria, finding a bigger home isn't an option.
I'll have to make a decision after the Tunze pump...hopefully it helps.

[naesco]

Um You have not had it that long. I think over and above what you are doing I would try to feed it a variety of foods including live and the sponge type foods. Good luck

[Aquattro]

I would try to feed it a variety of foods including live and the sponge type foods.

I agree. I feed probably 5 different types of food regularly. Formula 1 & 2 frozen, mysis, spirulina, pellets, seaweed selects. Once in a while I put some banana in there. Mostly the chromis like that. This fish does gainweight/size and overall seems in good physical shape. If I see it declining in health, I will pursue a bigger home for it.

[EmilyB]

How do you go about feeding banana Brad? :?

[zulu_principle]

Deb,

Get to bed, you have an early flight......

[EmilyB]

It was a serious question....and btw...I can't sleep.... :shock:

[Aquattro]

hehe, just cut a slice and hold it in the water. The fish pick at it and break off little chunks.