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Tigger
01-26-2002, 12:02 AM
Is it worthwhile to get a Rid-Volt Grounding Pole?
What does it do and how does it work?
Should I get one from J&L?

terryp01
01-26-2002, 12:23 AM
Very worthwile if you are using pumps or electricty around your tank. images/smiles/icon_eek.gif

In the event any of your electrical components ever short out, this will prevent it from killing everything in your tank. I may also save you from electrical shock as well.

Every tank I have has at least one of these items. You can usually get them for about 12.00 USD and considering what they may save it is money well spent.

Duss

titus
02-02-2002, 01:03 PM
Hello,

Okay I'm going to pitch in my long uncasted doubt on this equipment here.

Imagine 1
A squirrel is running on a power line fine and dandy images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
Imagine 2
A squirrel has its hands touching the top wire (live) and its feet touching the middle wire (neutral) images/smiles/icon_eek.gif
Get where I'm getting at?

If any equipment in the tank fails and expose the live components to the tank water, then the tank water would become live and float at whatever voltage=120*sin(wt+theta) is, as long as the tank water isn't grounded anywhere else.

If buddy comes along and place a ground probe in, then the circuit is completed and the GFCI (if there's one) and the circuit breaker will trip. However, at the instant just right before the circuit is tripped, there's a large amount of current flowing through that saltwater body and anything in its path.

This is what I think. Correct me if I'm wrong. Darren and Victor. Help.

StirCrazy
02-02-2002, 01:26 PM
after seeing all the problems laitly with people getting zaped (and they are using ground probes) I am not sure if they are a good thing. yes they will remove stray voltage but as Titus pointed out they will also compleat a circuit and htip the GFI if you have one. if you don't have one then you could be in trouble (or at least you wouldent need a heater anymore images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif )also there is the chance that another voltage leak in your house could be introduces into your tank throught a ground probe but this is probably a very small chance.

Steve

DJ88
02-02-2002, 02:10 PM
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Imagine 1
A squirrel is running on a power line fine and dandy
Imagine 2
A squirrel has its hands touching the top wire (live) and its feet touching the middle wire (neutral)
Get where I'm getting at?

<hr></blockquote>

Nope. images/smiles/icon_wink.gif The squirrel will be fine. He hasn't grounded himself to allow current flow. images/smiles/icon_wink.gif Unless he touched multiple HOT lines at once. But that is my take on hydro stuff.

Now if that same squirrel was to touch a power line then touch say a trolley cable line(which have different voltages) at the same time you will see a puff of fur. Potential difference is created and Mr. Squirrel becomes charcoal. images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

To me a ground probe is a good thing. In a system with a GFCI(no system should be without one BTW) a ground probe will allow another path for any possible potential difference to be sensed by the GFCI and trip. That is ensuring you have the ground probe hooked into your tank.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>However, at the instant just right before the circuit is tripped, there's a large amount of current flowing through that saltwater body and anything in its path.
<hr></blockquote>

GFCI's trip with such a tiny amount of potential difference you would be fine. It happens so fast that even if your hands were in the H2O you may feel a little tiny zap. But not enough to hurt.

GORD! Where are you? you can explain this one.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quotealso there is the chance that another voltage leak in your house could be introduces into your tank throught a ground probe but this is probably a very small chance.

If you have a voltage leak from your house circuitry you have some serious f*kin problems other than your tank having current leaked in. I have only seen ONE post about something like this. I don't know why this was brought up other than to mythinform. Sorry Steve, but if your house is leaking current INTO your tank you have some messed up wiring. Someone has screwed up royally. You would be more likely to die from plugging your microwave in than in your tank in a house with those problems.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote after seeing all the problems laitly with people getting zaped (and they are using ground probes) I am not sure if they are a good thing.

If those people are getting zapped it is NOT due to a grounding probe. Period. It is due to bad equipment and no GFCI IMO.

BOTTOM LINE....
GET A GFCI & PLUG EVERYTHING INTO IT!

Also make sure you use quality equipment and ensure everything is plugged in AFTER the GFCI. plugging something into a circuit not protected by a GFCI into your tank with GFCI supplying power to the rest of the equipment will cause problems. The smallest of which will be the GFCI tripping constantly. If it doesn't trip for some reason you then are NOT protected and can be shocked(this means possibly killed).

Don't take electricity lightly. It doesn't care what it goes through. .5 of an amp will KILL you. Take a peek at most equipment you are running. You have the ability in your hands to kill yourself multiple times over.

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: DJ88 ]</p>

titus
02-02-2002, 02:20 PM
Hello,

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> Nope. The squirrel will be fine. He hasn't grounded himself to allow current flow. Unless he touched multiple HOT lines at once. But that is my take on hydro stuff.

Now if that same squirrel was to touch a power line then touch say a trolley cable line(which have different voltages) at the same time you will see a puff of fur. Potential difference is created and Mr. Squirrel becomes charcoal.
<hr></blockquote>

I meant in "Imagine 2" that little squirrel is touching 2 sets of lines. Usually there are 3 lines running in between the hydro poles. The white one is neutral (usually middle) and the top and bottom one are the live ones. So if Mr. Squirrel was running on the middle (the neutral) and decides to place 2 out of 4 of his feets on either the top or bottom one. Then we see Mr. Zeus' lighting at work here.

Aside from that, Darren has a valid point in that GFCI trips so fast that nothing bad should be happening. But since this is the case, then why bother with a ground probe? Let's just use GFCI only and if some equipment failed and exposed its live components to the tank water, then let the tank floats. Afterall, we won't have to worry about getting electro-cuted since we have GFCI to trip if we are going to put our hands in there. This allows the tank to keep functioning in case we went away for a few days.
But bear in mind that I've heard cases when GFCI do not trip. So...... I guess we have to juggle between 1) allowing the tank to keep running by not using the ground probe to trip the GFCI when the owner is away, or 2) risk electro-killing yourself images/smiles/icon_mad.gif

DJ88
02-02-2002, 02:22 PM
Ahh GOTCHA! I see what ya meant Titus.. images/smiles/icon_smile.gif sorry.. we were thinking the same thing.. I guess.. images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

titus
02-02-2002, 02:23 PM
Hello,

Darren is very true guys, go grab a GFCI. I know I use one myself.

Back in the good o' days when I used to be young and run around construction sites working as an electrician, I had a trick. Sometimes I never know whether the wires are live so a quicky test is to just touch them! images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif And yes, I got a images/smiles/icon_eek.gif everytime when it was live. images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

DJ88
02-02-2002, 02:34 PM
Titus,

I have mentioned it before but..

Watched my boss on ship reach into an equipment rack that was supplied 120 2 phase and 440 three phase. He wanted to change a fuse for the 120. We(the other techs) said he should switch off the 440. He laughed joking about us youngins and not being aroudn the equipmant as long.. as he said this he reached in the cabinet and shorted himself across a 3" diameter fuse. He was thrown 6 fet into a bulkhead(wall for you landlubbers).

Moral of the story..

Don't mess with electricity. It will really mess with you.

titus
02-02-2002, 05:56 PM
Hello,

Alright guys, no bad feelings here.
This is the facts I know are true:
1) Circuit breaker will trip if there's no GFCI and there's a ground probe
2) Circuit breaker won't trip if there's no GFCI and no ground probe (very dangerous if you place your hand in the tank as the current may not be enough to trip the breaker)
3) GFCI will trip whether or not there is a ground probe.

Bottom line, use a GFCI if you can. If you can't, use a ground probe.

StirCrazy
02-02-2002, 07:56 PM
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Titus:
Hello,

1) Circuit breaker will trip if there's no GFCI and there's a ground probe.<hr></blockquote>

well yes it will Titus but if it is a 15 amp breaker it wont trip untill it is overloaded (usaly about 10% above the rating)or untill it over heats (if it is a thermal model also)

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Titus:
2) Circuit breaker won't trip if there's no GFCI and no ground probe.<hr></blockquote>

yup it will as soom as you reach that amp raiting

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Titus:

3) GFCI will trip whether or not there is a ground probe.<hr></blockquote>

GFCI will trip as soon as a voltage leak is detected, it will still shock you but it won't electricute you

but as I have pointed out above it doesent matter what you use with a breaker it will not trip till you have overcame its current rating.
this is why I got blowen across my kitchen when I unpluged my dishwasher(I probably jumped as I was filling my pants images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif , big flash of light, smoke and a sore hand.. ), it would seam that my boddy provided another path for the power to flow and it was just enuf to trip the breaker after it burnt me. also wiped out my toster and my microwave. hehe

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Titus:

Bottom line, use a GFCI if you can. If you can't, use a ground probe.<hr></blockquote>

I agree with the GFCI but I would not recomend a ground probe near water with out a GFCI, that is like saying you can take a hair dryer in the tub with you as it has a grounded plug.

Steve

reefburnaby
02-02-2002, 08:27 PM
Hi,

The squirrel example is fine....as long as the squirrel is touching an exposed wire (which isn't very often).

The reason why you can still get a zap with an GFCI is a couple of reasons :

1) You happen to run around the house with your socks on (or shoes) and you touch the tank. It is the same effect as zapping your siblings for fun. GFCI won't protect you from static electricity zaps images/smiles/icon_smile.gif It won't kill you either.

2) GFCI is not working as fast as it should. It takes a while for GFCI to react. Sometimes 1ms...sometimes 5ms. So...you'll still get a little jolt. It's better than getting roasted.

Its the current that kills...and current as low as 15mA (or 0.015 A) is enough to give you a little jolt. 25mA will kill you. Breakers trip around 15A or higher and they are usually very slow. It only takes a second of 25mA to kill you.

Steve,

You should put a probe on both tank and sump. There is a remote possibility that the main circultation pump could stop and one of the tanks will loose their ground connectivity.


- Victor.

Gordoe
02-02-2002, 09:37 PM
For what it's worth!

1. GFCI's measure for a difference in current flowing between the line and the neutral. "Supposed" to trip at 8mA, this is when humans begin to feel it.

2. Grounding probes complete the circuit to ground for stray voltages.(YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE STRAY VOLTAGES)The only unexplained voltage should come from inductance, and adding a grounding rod will add to the problem.

3. GFCI Receptacles have been known to fail... You have a body of water with electrical equipment in it, spend the money on a GFCI breaker and test it. Would you bring your hair dryer into the tub?

4. Use only CSA or ULC approved equipment in your tanks. You'd be suprised how much junk isn't approved in Canada.

5. That 15A breaker will roast you long before it trips if there is a fault, and you're the conductor! images/smiles/icon_eek.gif

I'm done spewing... images/smiles/icon_cool.gif

Gord


Hey Stircrazy, check the grounding of your house.. Toaster shouldn't have affected anything unless is was plugged into the same plug in the kitchen and it blew up your radio... In that case you broke the wrong tab of the split receptacle..

StirCrazy
02-03-2002, 04:19 AM
Darren I brought it up as I had a falty toster that leaked a few volts into my ground and some how it screw up a few other things in my house.. took me a while to figure out what was going on. now what would have happened if I have a ground probe in my tank when this happened? I am not trying to misinform anyone and I tank offence to that as I was talking about personal experance not something I read on a board.

and even if you have a GFI you will still get a little zap befor the lights go out images/smiles/icon_smile.gif I tested this one.. not intentionaly images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

the problem other people have been having is from salt creep getting into there non water proof light sockets so when the go to clean in there tank and bump the salt on the light they get zapped (another reason for water proof endcaps)

Also I don't think it is right to push a grounding probe unless you also push a GFI, MOST of the people who run tanks DON'T have a GFI but are getting the impression from others that aaa grounding probe will make everything ok
personaly I think it is nuts to use a grounding probe unless you have a GFI installed. and personaly I don't trust nothing anymore (for good reasons) so befor I do anywork in my tank I unplug the heater as that is the only thing in my tanks that could make me dance images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

my question is if you have a short in your tank shouldent the GFI trip?

having said all that I am building a power pannel in my stand with a couple GFI's and I will probably use a grounding probe also but if you have a sump and a tank and all your equipment is in the sump do you need one in the tank?

Steve

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]</p>

StirCrazy
02-03-2002, 12:48 PM
Gord,
the problem was fixed I threw out the toster. and my ground wasn't conected in the house, which enede up being a good thing as the electrition said it probably would have started a fire if it was. I guess it has a small eirth (spelling?) but not larg enuf to trip the breaker
so when I was doing some stufff I guess I caused a surge and the breaker blew.

Hey this came up somewhare else and there was a post made last night and sence I don't like linking to "other boards" if I don't have to here is the post

From the Environmental Aquarist by John Tullock:
“Some hobbyists with engineering knowledge have correctly pointed out that grounding the aquarium may create a hazard for the aquarist, irrespective of any beneficial effect on the tank’s inhabitants. The wire leading from the water to a ground on a nearby electrical circuit provides a path for current to flow in the event of an accident, such as a heater breaking or a light fixture falling into the water.
Further, the ability of a ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) circuit breaker to interrupt the power flow in such an accident situation is thwarted by grounding the tank. Either problem is clearly a good reason not to ground the tank or to make absolutely certain all power sources are disconnected before putting one’s hand into the water.”

so it seams others have been checking into this and mybe wwe have all been wrong in recomending a GFCI with a grounding probe.. what do you al think (and none of this "I use it so it has to be right stuff") maby we have been doing things wrong.. woulden't be the first time images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Steve

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]</p>

reefburnaby
02-03-2002, 08:07 PM
Hi,

Do you have a good source/link for the info you just provided. We would like to analyize it a bit before commenting.

There are a couple of cases where grounding may not be the best idea...but those are extreme cases.

- Victor.

StirCrazy
02-03-2002, 08:59 PM
I put whare it was from in the post


"From the Environmental Aquarist by John Tullock"

Steve

reefburnaby
02-03-2002, 10:56 PM
Hi,

Okay...I went digging around. And here's what I found and I tried to answer them.

There are a couple ways where a ground probe can fail to protect you when a GFCI is present.

1) The short within the tank is so great that it creates a voltage drop between the tank water and the actual ground. In this situation, there is a couple of amps flowing through the probe. Due to the resistance of the probe, the water will actually have a non-ground voltage. This is bad...and you can get electricuted.

To fix...use a better ground probe. The current breed of ground probes have very thin and long wires -- hence high resistance or high backpressure (in plumbing terms). A little bit of current through the probe, and a big voltage drop occurs. Of course, this situation can definitely happen if there is no GFCI images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

What if there is a GFCI ? Well...now it really depends which device is shorting out. If it is the usual powerheads, heaters...no this can't happen - GFCI will go off.

Now...if it was the electronic ballast driven lamps shorting to the water...then GFCI will not go off. The electronic ballast are actually isolated power supplies that are not protected by GFCI and they (supppose) to share the same ground.

If you are using power conditioners or power backup (APS), then you need to be very careful. You'll need a GFCI on both sides of the APS...on the power company side and on the output of the APS. Otherwise, you'll be in the same situation as the electronic ballast.

2. There is another scenario where there is no short within the tank, but the ground probe is attached to a faulty ground wire. In other words, the ground on the AC outlet is not really ground. This can be cause by faulty devices within the house or around your tank (like a little giant pump). Usually, it is the pumps...so some find that plugging the probe directly to the AC outlet fixes this problem.

We are more sensitive to electricity when our hands are in salt water (especially, hands with a fresh wound) than when they are dry or in fresh water. Keep in mind that small electrical problems around salt water can give you a bigger electrical shock than normal.

One of the puzzling things is the statement that ground probes can cause problems. And it is true, but it depends on the situation. Some reefers have been shocked (slightly) when a ground probe is used. Usually it is one of the problems stated above. So, how does removing the probe prevent you from getting a shock ?

In the first case, the probe created the voltage. So, when it is removed, the water will be at the same voltage as the short (which is usually AC). If you touch the water, your whole body will be at the same voltage as AC. This works as long as your toes, feet, hands are not touch a ground. If you do...toast. Otherwise...you'll be fine.

In the second case, the bad ground caused the problem. If the water is not grounded to the bad ground, then you won't get shocked when you touch the water.

I still think that a proper probe and a GFCI is best. I also think reefs should wear shoes/slippers or stand on a plastic mat/chair when you work in you tank. Even better...turn off your electrical equipment when you work in your tank. Electricity is a dangerous thing to play with. I am sure electricians, like Gord, can share some great horror stories.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]</p>