Garlic :)

[Reef_kid]

so i have read a lot of different threads on people feeding garlic to cure ick or other diseases.
im a immunology/microbiology major so thought it might shed some light on how garlic works in the reef for diseases treatment and fish health

garlic contains many medical properties

Ajoene (E-, and Z- 4,5,9-trithiadodeca-1,6,11-triene 9-oxide)
this is a chemical compound found in garlic
a broad spectrum antimicrobial agent and antioxidant

Allicine (2-propene-1-sulfinothioic acid S-2-propenyl ester)
this is a chemical in garlic that when you cut it up
an enzyme in the garlic alliinase cleaves allicine into a new product
alliin this is a powerful antimicrobial and anti fungal agent

when you feed the oils or garlic mush to your fish
these "oils" will be dispersed into the body of the fish
just like antibiotics we take

hope that sheds light on garlic and why it works
:)

cheers dave

[Salmon King]

Are you saying garlic kills ick.I have talked to alot of marine biologists and your local pet stores. They all said it was not a cure for ick .What bugs me is when somebody new in this hobby takes advice from people to use garlic and loses there fish.Are you garlic people going to buy him a new one.

[Reef_kid]

you have to remember that marine biologists are trained in a very different aspect of science. though immunology and microbiology may over lap
dosnt mean that those marine biologists know anything about chemical compounds or the nature of chemicals in a immunological or microbiological view
garlic has many chemical compounds that are used in medicine
and to treat infections. you have to also note that just because a fish is covered in white dots dose not mean it has ick. could be many other microbial organisms. just like when we have a sore throat or cold may be a bacterial infection such as S. pyognes or could be a yeast infestation

garlic has anti microbial agents as well as antioxidants and anti fungals
most of the time these are for protection of the plant itself but serves a purpouse in another aspect of the world just happens that it works in the fish tank on some micoorganisms

so yes garlic does have antimicrobial effects

[Salmon King]

Are tou saying garlic kills ich

[Aquattro]

Are tou saying garlic kills ich


Nobody is saying garlic kills ich Rob. We're saying somehow it removes an ich infestation when fed to afflicted fish. But yes, it certainly does work. I'm not sure why you're so opposed to that being possible.

[michika]

you have to remember that marine biologists are trained in a very different aspect of science. though immunology and microbiology may over lap
dosnt mean that those marine biologists know anything about chemical compounds or the nature of chemicals in a immunological or microbiological view
garlic has many chemical compounds that are used in medicine
and to treat infections. you have to also note that just because a fish is covered in white dots dose not mean it has ick. could be many other microbial organisms. just like when we have a sore throat or cold may be a bacterial infection such as S. pyognes or could be a yeast infestation

garlic has anti microbial agents as well as antioxidants and anti fungals
most of the time these are for protection of the plant itself but serves a purpouse in another aspect of the world just happens that it works in the fish tank on some micoorganisms

so yes garlic does have antimicrobial effects

:mrgreen: Well put!

[digital-audiophile]

I've never lost a fish to ich and garlic has always been my "snake oil" :)

[Salmon King]

Hey Reef Kid arnt you a first year student.I wonder why fish stores and fish farms dont use garlic to get rid of there parasites.You know I resd about garlic 10 years ago how it would cure ich in reef tanks.I thought I should market it.I did do reaserch and found it was a wise tale.How come when I have grilled all the pet stores about wether garlic works the all say no. They have delt with more ick then you would see in a lifetime.As I say are you garlic people going to pay for somebody new to this hobby that loses there fish because they used garlic to kill there ick

[findingnemo1]

Isn't this and everything in life what a single person believes works for them? It is a matter of opinion. You will find many people who say it works and just as many who say it doesn't.The first thing we tell everybody new to the hobby is do the research. So really if someone where to say to someone new who has ick to try the garlic than really they should be researching it first anyways and drawing there own conclusions.We have this WWW at our fingertips. Just because someone loses a fish to ick when someone says "oh the garlic works for me" doesn't make that one person responsible for there dead fish. If it works for the person who is suggesting it than i guess it works for them.
I think this hobby can seriously bring out the worst in people. Does any one person have all the answers? Not likely. We all have our idea's and i think that shooting down other peoples thoughts and idea's is wrong.
If someone doesn't like the idea of garlic than wouldn't it be just easier to post on the thread there own thoughts and let the person who asked the question make an informed decision but a decision that they made and will ineveitably learn from either way if it works or not?

Just my 2 cents worth which really may not be much:lol: :lol:

Lisa:)

[SeaShell]

I can only speak from personal experience. I've kept reef tanks for about 10 years now and have seen ich too many times. I have tried many things; pulled my tank apart to Q the fish and copper them, I've tried Kick Ich in the reef tank, but the only thing that's knocked those little spots off is Garlic. SeaChem's Garlic Guard is my best friend. I'm sure it doesn't kill the parasites, but it sure removes them from my fish.

I currently have a slight ich outbreak. I caught it early and am soaking the fish food in garlic before feeding, and this morning (third day in), the spots are gone. As well, the parasites didn't afflict any but two fish in my tank.

I'm sticking to garlic. Other methods add more stress to the tank and I lose more fish with them.

Just my personal experience... I'm no scholar!

[Salmon King]

I can only speak from personal experience. I've kept reef tanks for about 10 years now and have seen ich too many times. I have tried many things; pulled my tank apart to Q the fish and copper them, I've tried Kick Ich in the reef tank, but the only thing that's knocked those little spots off is Garlic. SeaChem's Garlic Guard is my best friend. I'm sure it doesn't kill the parasites, but it sure removes them from my fish.

I currently have a slight ich outbreak. I caught it early and am soaking the fish food in garlic before feeding, and this morning (third day in), the spots are gone. As well, the parasites didn't afflict any but two fish in my tank.

I'm sticking to garlic. Other methods add more stress to the tank and I lose more fish with them.

Just my personal experience... I'm no scholar!

Reef Kid says white spots is not ich.

[Doug]

1. Most lfs stores dont use garlic because its to large of a scale. They use uv systems and many still separate so they can use a copper based treatment.

2. I dont think it will make a big deal on new aquarists, if anything it will help if they feed their fish garlic treated foods. Most new aquarists do lose fish to ich, because they dont know how to treat them and the lfs stores dont suggest the use of a treatment like garlic.

3. I agree its not the be all treatment for ich but in cojunction with other things, like copper based meds, lowered slainity and treating their foods with garlic & selcon.

[Salmon King]

Pet stores dont use garlic because they dont believe in it.Somebody should eat a pound of garlic and stand in a swamp and see if any masquitos bite them

[michika]

you have to also note that just because a fish is covered in white dots dose not mean it has ick.

Not all white dots on a fish are ich. White dots could be indicative of more illness then just ich.

[SeaShell]

Hey.... Garlic repells my husband... should work on other parasites too....

JUST KIDDING!!!!

:D

[Aquattro]

Rob, I find it difficult to believe you fight garlic so much, but then suggest a power outage cured ich in your tank. Ya, way better advice than garlic, turn your power off. c'mon on.
Stores also don't recommend garlic because they don't sell garlic. They sell copper.
Now, if you want to use power outages and tear your reef apart every time (50??) you get ich, be my guest. But don't tell people that use garlic that they're wrong, because they are not wrong. Hundreds if not thousands of reports on the success of garlic have been recorded. You're saying we're all making it up? Really?
Now I don't care what your biologist friend or your LFS think, because I've tried it and it works. "Works" is a good selling point to convince me to keep using it. And since it works for so many others, I think it's good advice to try it if/when other things don't work.
You know copper is toxic to fish also, right? I don't want to poison my fish trying to cure them of something. Oh, right, it's only poisoning them a little. That's ok. Mhmm.
Lots of doctors wil tell you homeopathic remedies don't work, but thousands of pateints use them to resolve ailments. Jusat like garlic and ich.
If you don't want to use it, don't. If someone else wants to try it to help their fish, let them try it. Know why? It WORKS. No, really.

[Salmon King]

Hey.... Garlic repells my husband... should work on other parasites too....

JUST KIDDING!!!!

:D

Garlic also repells Vampires.That is a proven fact

[Doug]

Pet stores dont use garlic because they dont believe in it.Somebody should eat a pound of garlic and stand in a swamp and see if any masquitos bite them

Matter of opinion. I stated my view from the many lfs owners I know. Thats yours. Does not make it correct though. :smile:

I believe my reason for stores not using garlic is based more on what I said and not on the fact they dont believe in it. Although they may not, I doubt thats the reason they dont use it.

[Aquattro]

Pet stores dont use garlic because they dont believe in it.Somebody should eat a pound of garlic and stand in a swamp and see if any masquitos bite them

Rob, we're talking about ich and garlic in treating fish. What the heck does eating garlic and standing in a swamp prove in fighting fish ailments?

I gotta ask....have you even tried it??? Do you know what you're talking about first hand, or do you just listen to the LFS?? And stop with the "I've been doing this since dinosaurs roamed" stuff, lots of us have been doing this as long or longer than you. Without 50+ outbreaks of ich....

[Salmon King]

Brad did I say it cured it.Wake up smell the coffee.On one hand you say garlic helped your ich then you say it cured it.what is it one or the other/

[michika]

I gotta ask....have you even tried it??? Do you know what you're talking about first hand, or do you just listen to the LFS?? And stop with the "I've been doing this since dinosaurs roamed" stuff, lots of us have been doing this as long or longer than you. Without 50+ outbreaks of ich....

Brad, today you are full of win! :lol:

[surgeonfish]

I think a lot of what we do in our everyday lives is based on habit or hearsay. Even in medicine a lot of what we do is still not based on hard science. Sure we know the chemical composition and anatomical structure of the compounds making up garlic, but do we have any "evidence based research" that garlic has a true benefit in preventing or treating disease in fish (or humans)? I think we should be asking for that evidence. Where is the randomized controlled blinded studies? Here is a good project for a zoology summer student or a thesis for a graduate degree. Unfortunately, until someone does these studies, we will never have the true answer and have to rely on rumors and our own biased experiences. However, even without this evidence I use garlic because it is inexpensive and I haven’t seen any obvious deleterious effects. I have had ich outbreaks in my tank during addition of new fish while using garlic, but not since I started to quarantine them for 4-8 weeks. Maybe we should trade in our garlic for quarantine tanks?

If anyone does find any scientific evidence of the benefits of garlic please share it with the rest of us.

Thanks,
Shane BSc, MSc, MD, FRCSC, FACS

[Aquattro]

Wake up smell the coffee.

You need to watch your responses Rob. Keep to the facts at hand or don't post.

[Salmon King]

Brad how long have u been in this hobby and have you ever had a fish only tank.I have researched this longer then you have been in this hobby.Brad make a million selling your garlic to therr salmon farms.Fact I never said power outages cure ick.Please let this free discution continue without you abusing indavisual power.Fact vitamin c helps your imune system but doesnt cure colds.As of standing in a swamp masquitos are parasites

[Aquattro]

Maybe we should trade in our garlic for quarantine tanks?

If anyone does find any scientific evidence of the benefits of garlic please share it with the rest of us.




Shane, are those in the produce section? :)

I actually did a study in biology re: the effects of garlic on bacterial cultures. I proved it didn't do a darn thing in any of my dishes. Certainly not along th elines of what you suggest needs to be done, but in a simple test it did nothing.

However, when I fed it to my fish during an ich outbreak, the ich went away. Maybe by chance. The next time it did the same thing, "chance" is starting to get discounted as a variable.
It's my treatment of choice now, despite what my own experiments showed.

[Aquattro]

Brad how long have u been in this hobby and have you ever had a fish only tank.I have researched this longer then you have been in this hobby.Brad make a million selling your garlic to therr salmon farms

Rob, I've kept SW fish for over 15 years. You need to stop getting abusive with people that disagree with your "opinion". If garlic didn't work for you, too bad. You use what you want, and let us use what WORKS for us.

Continue with the abusive posts Rob and you won't post anymore. I've had several complaints from people already this morning, so please keep it civil.

[michika]

If anyone does find any scientific evidence of the benefits of garlic please share it with the rest of us.

There was some research done on Allicine's effectiveness. I'll see if I can't find it again. I can't remember though if it was in relation to ich specifically though.

On another note what does FRCSC, and FACS stand for?

[Aquattro]

.Please let this free discution continue without you abusing indavisual power.

Rob, you've completely edited your post, so it's kinda tough to keep it going when the history of it changes.
And I'm not abusing any power Rob, I'm acting as a mod in response to complaints I've received regarding your abusive attitude to people that don't agree with you. This conversation can continue forever, as long as you keep the facts at hand and do not insult other members. OK?

[Chin_Lee]

Mr. Salmon King,
I've read two threads (well one started off as power outage killing ick) regarding garlic use. Many people have posted their personal experiences on the use of garlic which worked for them. Please just take their word for it that it did work for them. As to why garlic is not used on fish farms or what not, that is a separate issue and should be asked to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans who (i believe) oversees the fish farms' procedures.
An individual posted medicinal properties of garlic that may contribute to the success observed by different aquarists. But I don't believe anybody have observed ick cysts or parasite falling off their fish and seeing these parasites writhing on the floor of their aquarium and subsequently dying after using garlic. Most people have just observed that their previously icky fish were no longer icky after they used some sort of garlic intervention.
If a power outage can get rid of ick, then (as previously mentioned by Howdy) we would never see any ick on our fish after a 16-30 hour ride in a plastic bag without power. Your experience on getting rid of ick your angel is incredible and further details may provide an insight on how it occurred.
What other livestock did you have in your tank?
Which corals died off?
I am not suggesting anything but maybe one of the corals that died released something into the water that caused the ick to disappear which is something that you should look into further.
I have no doubt that your angels are ick free and what you experienced was something great. However I don't believe that losing power is the direct cause of it. I also have no doubt that garlic has also worked for many people as it had also worked for me in the past.

[albert_dao]

Allicine (2-propene-1-sulfinothioic acid S-2-propenyl ester)
this is a chemical in garlic that when you cut it up
an enzyme in the garlic alliinase cleaves allicine into a new product
alliin this is a powerful antimicrobial and anti fungal agent

Some reading:

http://www.health-reports.com/allicin.html

Also note that allicin, when generated from fresh Garlic, is unstable, and quickly turns into other sulphur containing compounds. Due to Allicin's instability it is difficult for garlic based products to contain and maintain an Allicin content. I'm sure we can put two and two together on this one.

[findingnemo1]

I don't understand why everyone gets worked up over this. It is a matter of opinion and an opinion only of another person of something that worked for them. If it works for one great:) If it doesn't for another so be it.

I believe garlic keeps my family healthy. They have a tablet everyday and we rarely get a cold or anything else for that matter. Is it the garlic? Or just because they eat we'll and wash there hands( i hope the kids do...lol) Who knows. But again it is a belief and i will give the tablet everyday for if it is the garlic i do not want 3 sick kids.

The same goes with our fish. We give them garlic in there food with the thought that it keeps them healthy and ick free. If it shows to work why would you take that chance to stop it to find out that you now have a tank full of ick infested fish.

Let other people make there own decisions and not get criticized for that. What one believes in 9 times out of 10 is not what others believe in.

[Kabong]

My 2 cent's
Does feeding garlic wipe ich out of your tank? I highly doubt it.
Does it seem to help your fish fight it off. Sure seems like it.

I'm no scientist but from what I've experienced it defiantly seems to help.
Yes I have Ich living in my tank, even as I speak the little buggers are creeping around waiting for a opportunity.
let the water quality go a little south, rearrange the rock work.
Anything that stress's out my fish and all of a sudden they got it.
Add garlic into their diet for a week or so and it's gone.

[Gazza]

Pet stores dont use garlic because they dont believe in it.Somebody should eat a pound of garlic and stand in a swamp and see if any masquitos bite them

I've had an Aquarium shop for 33 years and use garlic everyday mixed with flake and frozen foods. Mostly for marine but also on clown loach and other scaleless freshwater.

[Reef_kid]

i dono why this seemed upset people
i just thought i would explain how this chemical works

i can give you step by step enzymatic and immunological breakdown of how garlics chemicals produce a antimicrobial effect but for most people it wouldn't make sense.
the fact is that garlic has these property's and whether its humans, dogs, insects or fish. it works at a certain biological level that wards off and or cures fungus or parasites or bacterial diseases.

i thought i would explain how it works
so people understand what chemicals are present and
why it has this effect.

just because tetracycline works for one person with a sore throat
dose not mean its going to work for someone else:)
and it dose not mean it isn't an antibiotic

[Skimmin]

Lets just say in some instances garlic has seemed to help some poeple and others not. If you have ich then theres not much to lose by trying to resolve the problem with garlic. In my own experiance it has helped but... If you set two tanks up side by side, and kept everything the same I'm sure the two tanks would still not be exactly the same. I would not say it is a cure but maybe an aid for healing in some instances.

[Reef_kid]

thanks skimmin thats a good idea:)

[midgetwaiter]

Some reading:

http://www.health-reports.com/allicin.html

Also note that allicin, when generated from fresh Garlic, is unstable, and quickly turns into other sulphur containing compounds. Due to Allicin's instability it is difficult for garlic based products to contain and maintain an Allicin content. I'm sure we can put two and two together on this one.

Everybody go read Albert's link, twice. This should give you a better understanding of why this is a difficult question to answer.

Crushed garlic (delivering allin) has been used for thousands of years to dress wounds and it does help prevent infection, no question. It can not have anything to do with destroying ich through feeding, it would have to be applied topically. I believe Allin is too reactive and breaks down too fast to be delivered through the gut. It's not a good systemic medication, discard this idea completely.

Fresh garlic and a variety of garlic extracts have been shown to have some effect on the immune system. At present nobody has a full understanding of the mechanics. It is this idea that supports the idea of garlic being an effective treatment for ich. Immune boosters, anti oxidants etc. Think things like echinacia and Cold FX.

I don't know how sold I am on the idea that this works, I don't recommend it to people but I don't think it hurts anything either. A healthy fish that isn't being stressed in some way or exposed to an infected tankmate isn't going to have issues with ich. Even notorious ich "magnets" like powder tangs don't start showing symptoms for no reason. If you start seeing it, first fix the problem then fix the ich.

I don't use garlic because I have a variety of other methods at my quick disposal. IME nothing works on ich like hyposalinity.

One other thing I should note. It is possible that either fresh garlic or some extract products have an effect on certain internal (gut) parasitic conditions. There is some evidence to support the idea and I've found it to be somewhat effective with fresh garlic (allin). Some foods and garlic preparations also could be effective, others have had success.

[jslaney]

Reef Kid,

Thanks for posting this topic it was very interesting and I always apreciate when people try to explain how things work.

I laughed really hard going through the whole text. Its actually really funny if you read it fresh from the beggining. People are weird.

Thanks again,

Jon.

[digital_fish]

What is the best way to feed the garlic to the fish?