ich

[Salmon King]

I may have stumbled on a new cure for ich.I just bought a m/f Watanabe angels.The ended up cover in ich from head to tail.A local pet store manager came over and looked.We planed to dismantle the 135 reef to remove the fish and copper them.I went out and a fuse blew .I figured the tank had no power for 6 to 8hrs.Some of the corral looked abit on the bad side.I flicked the fuse to power everything up.The next day there wasnt any ich on the fish.I could not believe it.Even the pet store guy was shocked.Cant explain it except ich isnt as hardy as the fish or corral.I am not saying to do this yet but could be a good exsperiment for somebody.I did lose acouple corral out of 100

[mark]

Cure or just the parasite dropped off?

[fkshiu]

I highly doubt that did anything. If you examined the fish under a microscope you'd probably find parasites.

More likely, what happened his that the parasites simply went into a different part of their life cycle by dropping off the fish into the substrate during darkness. From Steven Pro's article:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

"Mature trophonts leave the host and tomites exit the theront/cyst in the dark (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994). Imagine if you will, a fish that randomly acquires a single Ich parasite. After a couple of days when the trophont is well fed, it prepares to drop off its host but waits for the environmental trigger of darkness. Meanwhile, the fish prepares to "bed down" in its favorite hiding spot in the aquarium; the same fish occupy the same spot practically every night. Now, the trophont leaves the fish, encysts, and begins to multiply. Several days to weeks go by and that same fish returns to its same spot at night, only this time there are hundreds of infectious theronts seeking out a host/victim in the same area. I am sure some of you are thinking that this is absolutely diabolical. Others can appreciate the simple beauty of this plan. To me, it is just another reminder of how remarkable evolution and adaptation is."

If ich were this easy to kill natural selection would have wiped it out eons ago.

[justinl]

that was an interesting quote franklin and i have to say i agree with you. in fact, from what Ive seen, parasites are usually tougher to kill from water quality than the hosts. Ive done some work with sea lice on salmon and i have to say... It's kind of freaky watching them scuttle about happily... in 10% buffered formalin.

[BC564]

I have a cleaner wrasse in my tank that seems to kick the crap out of ick. A the fish take there turn and visit him for routine check ups.....its quite strange to watch.....the wrasse is almost always in the front right corner..and they come to him just like we would go to a doctor.....

[Salmon King]

I have a 255 gal fish only tank besides the 2 reef.I have delt with ich since the beggining in this hobby for 14 years.There is no ich on these angels at all in the reef tank for 4 days after the power outage. These fish were loaded with it as my local fish store manager wittnessed. When You have ich it does not dissapear one day and show up the next.It is on the fish always.I new it was going to be a battle to save them and a hassle to rip apart a 135 with a hundred corral in it.As I said this could be a good exsperiment for some one mybe me

[Aquattro]

Rob, you may want to try garlic. Works great for me.

[Aquattro]

next time I cook spagetti I will try it

You won't be sorry, I had that for dinner. You also won't have any ich. I'm surprised that after so many years of doing this you haven't caught on to the garlic thing. I'll show you how to do it next time I'm over.
It's also good in butter on toasted bread. :)

[SeaShell]

I feed garlic when my fish have ich.... Is there another trick?

[Aquattro]

I feed garlic when my fish have ich.... Is there another trick?

Just different ways of feeding it. I mush it into mostly oil and soak it all up with some nori. Works for me, although I've only had ich twice.

And mostly I'm bugging Rob, 'cause he thinks we're all crazy :)

[SeaShell]

Nooooooo! I believe in garlic! But you know... it's not fun kissing fish with garlic breath.

[Salmon King]

Brad I have only delt with ich at least 50 times.This was a really bad case of it.Can u explain how it dissapeared in 6hrs.

[Salmon King]

Hey Brad Japarto said to use ginger.Have you tried this.

[Aquattro]

Brad I have only delt with ich at least 50 times.This was a really bad case of it.Can u explain how it dissapeared in 6hrs.

Hmm, I use garlic, 2 outbreaks. You don't, 50 outbreaks. I'm not sure what to say to that....:)

[Aquattro]

Hey Brad Japarto said to use ginger.Have you tried this.


well that's just dumb....

[Sebae again]

You use the ginger after wasabi and soya sause

[Aquattro]

You use the ginger after wasabi and soya sauce

But only if you're switching fish types, right?

[Sebae again]

Exactly .Works every time. Maybe thats why I never have Itch.

[Salmon King]

Brad you now I have delt with fish alot more then you.Corral I havnt.As a fish only guy that started when every fish you bought had ick and the only treatment was pure copper sulfate.I have ran into diseases you have never seen.I have successfuly not only treated my fish but alot of other peoples when they had nobody to turn to.You are still a rookie in the fish only hobby my friend as I am in the corral hobby.I will be looking in the local pet store for a fish in bad shape and see if turning the power off for as long as possible with out killing it or torturing it.It would be great if you could cure fish with out medication.The ginger was a joke from Japarto.I may have stumbled on something maybe not.

[wickedfrags]

IME - the best way to ensure you never get ick again is to better control your temperature fluctuations. The thermostats on your heaters are junk. - don't you just hate seeing them ON when you want the temp to go down??? With a proper temperature controller your fish are much less likely to get ick. Worth the money IMO.

[cav~firez22]

i thought garlic was just to entice fish to eat... interesting.

on the other hand, seachems product of garlic extract works pretty well. next time i will just buy garlic extract instead of the 20$/bottle from seachem.

[howdy20012002]

garlic will not kill ich. All garlic does is entice them to eat...which gives the fish a better chance of fighting off the ich.
even copper just causes irritation to the fish which causes the fish to produce more of a slim coat...thus making it more difficult for the ich to host on the fish...copper at the low concentration that fish can tolerate will not kill the parasite.
besides leaving your tank empty for a month, Hypsolanity is the only way to kill the ich as far as I am concerned.
the parasite is not able to deal with the reduced pressure and literally explod.
I have a hard time believing that no power or water movement killed ich.
by that premise, no fish should have ich when I bring it in from the states as they are without power or water movement for over 24 hours. however, I always have at least one ich outbreak of ich each shipment.
Not sure what caused the ich to die off, but in my opinion, it was not the lack of power.

[marie]

garlic does entice them to eat...which gives the fish a better chance of fighting off the ich.
even copper just causes irritation to the fish which causes the fish to produce more of a slim coat...thus making it more difficult for the ich to host on the fish.
garlic or copper, as far as I know, do not kill ich...just give the fish a better chance of fighting off the ich.
besides leaving your tank empty for a month, Hypsolanity is the only way to kill the ich as far as I am concerned.
the parasite is not able to deal with the reduced pressure and literally explod.
I have a hard time believing that no power or water movement killed ich.
by that premise, no fish should have ich when I bring it in from the states as they are without power or water movement for over 24 hours. however, I always have at least one ich outbreak of ich each shipment.
Not sure what caused the ich to die off, but in my opinion, it was not the lack of power.

copper kills ich, thats why you can't use it in a reef tank, it kills inverts...actually its not real good for the fish either but at least they tolerate it

[howdy20012002]

It depends on where you read I think.
some sites say that it is used to generate a thicker slime coat.
others say that it is used to kill the parasite.
either way it doesn't have a 100 percent kill rate.
the only way that I am aware of to definitely kill it off out of your tank is hyposalinity and or no hosts for at least 4 weeks.
Neal

[Aquattro]

Copper is in fact a parasiticide. Garlic is not. Feeding garlic, in both my cases, made ich go away. Do I care how? No. Will I use it if I ever get ich in my tank again? Yes.

[Aquattro]

some info on copper From Merck Veterinary Manual, http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/170404.htm




Copper sulfate (CuSO4) is not approved by the FDA; however, a number of compounds containing CuSO4 have been approved by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) as algicides for use in aquatic sites. CuSO4 is currently designated as “of moderate regulatory concern” and is used in food fish practice; however, practitioners must keep themselves informed of possible changes in the status of this chemical. CuSO4 has been used for many years as a parasiticide and is particularly useful in large production ponds because of its relatively low cost. Copper is highly toxic to fish, and safe use depends on its interaction with carbonate salts in water. In freshwater systems, the concentration of CuSO4 applied should be based on the total alkalinity (TA) of the water. If TA is <50 mg/L, copper cannot be used safely without performing a bioassay. If TA is 50-250 mg/L, a safe concentration of CuSO4 can be determined by dividing the TA by 100. For example, if TA = 100 mg/L, a safe concentration of CuSO4 would be 1 mg/L. If TA is >250 mg/L, the concentration of CuSO4 should not exceed 2.5 mg/L. Other concerns when treating a pond with CuSO4 (in addition to its direct toxicity to fish) relate to its algicidal activity. Rapid death of an algal bloom can precipitate a catastrophic oxygen depletion. Use of CuSO4 in ponds not equipped with supplemental aeration is risky. Use of CuSO4 is hazardous if a pond has a heavy algal bloom (secchi disc ≤18 in.) or if the water is already deficient in oxygen due to other factors, (eg, cloudy weather or high water temperature). CuSO4 is efficacious against most protozoal parasites, is economical, and despite these concerns, may be an excellent choice when multiple treatments are required (eg, in an epizootic of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis ). In saltwater systems, copper is sometimes applied in a chelated form because it stays in concentration longer. Chelated compounds may be difficult to use safely and require careful monitoring. CuSO4 can be used to treat marine fish, but the concentration of active copper must be closely monitored (test kits are available) and should be maintained at 0.2 mg/L for up to 3 wk. Safe and effective use of copper in marine systems requires that Cu2+ concentrations be tested at least once a day. Copper is extremely toxic to invertebrates, so these must be removed before the water is treated. Copper is also toxic to plants and should not be used in ornamental ponds that have been stocked with valuable plants. Finally, copper will impact bacteria in biofilters and a transient increase in ammonia should be expected for several days following treatment. Monitoring ammonia until measurable concentrations subside is recommended.

[Pier Pressure]

My cleaner shrimp eat ich. I had a Royal Gramma who seemed to get ich from transport. The day after I put him into my reef tank, he was covered in spots. My cleaner shrimp (I have two of them) went to town, and by the next day I could not see any spots. I have not had any other signs of it, either, and this was several months ago.

[Veng68]

I've heard that Neon Gobies act as cleaners but I've no experience with them.

Cheers,
Vic [veng68]

[BC564]

That is why I mentioned my cleaner Wrasse ....it totally cleaned up 2 fish of mine that had ick pretty bad.......the cleaner was all over them and they were clear quite fast.

[Borderjumper]

Hey Brad Japarto said to use ginger.Have you tried this.

Ive heard a lot of Ick remedys but Ginger??? Hows that supposed to do anything? supossed to feed it or put it in the water?

[Aquattro]

Ive heard a lot of Ick remedys but Ginger??? Hows that supposed to do anything? supossed to feed it or put it in the water?


I think it's meant as a condiment.....

[Borderjumper]

I think it's meant as a condiment.....

:shocked!:

[Salmon King]

I had a power outage and some how this thread turned to garlic(BRAD)I had a power outage and my ich dissapeared.I was wondering if anybody that had ich in there tank and there power went off for 6 to 8 hours .If not I will exsperiment if nobody else does and will post the results.Brad start your own thread obout your garlic or your ginger .

[Aquattro]

Well Rob, the only references I've heard re: power outages is that they sometimes induce ich from the stress of the drastic change in temp. Never heard of power outages curing ich. Now, if you want to cure ich, you might want to try garlic ......hehehe

[Salmon King]

The only garlic I use on fish is when I eat them.Actually it works great at getting rid of woman

[Borderjumper]

I read somewhere that ginger works :wink:

[Aquattro]

The only garlic I use on fish is when I eat them.

Hmm, maybe that's why you've had ich 50 + times?? I'm just sayin'...

[mark]

I think Howdy's comment says alot about no power and ich.

[michika]

If not I will exsperiment if nobody else does and will post the results.

I would strongly advise against this. Not only is this a hard experiment to run, but its also dangerous to the livestock. Running an experiment of this size requires quite a lot of controlled variables.

I also have to agree with Howdy, if a power outtage got rid of your ick, then no fish fish coming in to him, or other suppliers shouldn't have it either. I also agree with fkshiu, that during your outtage the life stage on the parasite changed.

[Salmon King]

I am not a rookie in this hobby and would not kill or torture a fish.One thing I know if fish and the diseases that come with them.I have been in the saltwater fish since 1994.I f I do a exsperiment I am not going to kill a fish or make one suffer.The ick on all the fish disappeared after this power outage.Mabe it was this maybe not and all i hear is people talking about there magic garlic . . Iam not going to torture a fish with garlic hoping this snake oil cures it.The only known cure for ick is copper.If you grill you local pet store they will admit this even if they sell you these other snake oils.

[Veng68]

Well....... if it was a change in life cycle of the ich........ you will get the ich back in 2-3 weeks.

Cheers,
Vic [veng68]

[michika]

I am not a rookie in this hobby and would not kill or torture a fish.One thing I know if fish and the diseases that come with them.I have been in the saltwater fish since 1994.I f I do a exsperiment I am not going to kill a fish or make one suffer.The ick on all the fish disappeared after this power outage.Mabe it was this maybe not and all i hear is people talking about there magic garlic . . Iam not going to torture a fish with garlic hoping this snake oil cures it.The only known cure for ick is copper.If you grill you local pet store they will admit this even if they sell you these other snake oils.

My point was not in reference to garlic at all. I'm just saying that setting up an experiment to test your theory would be extremely challenging. The need to account for and control all the confounding variables would easily be your downfall.

It doesn't matter how long you've been in the hobby, or what some pet store employee says. You need to research for yourself, things need to be backed up with tested facts. If your only response to support for a product is your experience, or what someone else said, it doesn't inspire much belief in your claims.

[Salmon King]

My point was not in reference to garlic at all. I'm just saying that setting up an experiment to test your theory would be extremely challenging. The need to account for and control all the confounding variables would easily be your downfall.

It doesn't matter how long you've been in the hobby, or what some pet store employee says. You need to research for yourself, things need to be backed up with tested facts. If your only response to support for a product is your experience, or what someone else said, it doesn't inspire much belief in your claims.

In the beggining I didnt say power outages worked.One thing I did research garlic like I said in the other post on ich.You ask any pet store inB.C if garlic is a cure for ick they say no.I have asked many marine biologests and they say no.They should feed farm raised salmon garlic and there would be no more protests and they would probally taste better.

[justinl]

salmon dont get ich. they get sea lice.

we dont need to hear that garlic doesnt cure ich... we know. what garlic does is make food taste better. eating fish are less stressed and therefore less prone to succumbing to an outbreak of ich. stressed fish have weakened immune systems and are therefore more prone to ich. it's been stated before.

dont get so defensive, read what michika wrote carefully. the experiment you're implying that you want to conduct is a) morally unethical and b) very difficult to run properly. unless you can show us a solid scientific approach and basis to conduct this experiment, you wont see much slack from us in this thread.

[Salmon King]

Lice and ich are both parasites

[Canuckgod420]

wow your an absrassive *edited*
no one hear is saying that garlic is the cure all for ich....
but i'll bet my entire reef that power outages dont cure a damn thing.....
I've used garlic for three years now and have had a grand total of 1 fish with ich.....and i've even suffered through a crash that killed all my corals, but not 1 fish died...and the ich never came back.

[Doug]

Please refrain from personal attacks.
Thanks

[Canuckgod420]

I'm not attacking anyone on a personel level.....he IS being abrassive.

[Salmon King]

http://www.health-reports.com/allicin.html
Read this from albert doa

[albert_dao]

Errrr, I don't think you took into proper context what I posted.

My thoughts were that most commercial garlic products do not contain an active allicin ingredient. I'm not implying that garlic doesn't do anything, but rather that commercial garlic products aren't working as we're hoping they do.

[EmilyB]

Fresh squeezed garlic juice...no substitute ! :wink:

[Sebae again]

IMO the fresh squeezed garlic is the key .

[marie]

And it has the added benefit of making your house smell like an italian restuarant :mrgreen:

[skylord]

A little for the garlic bread a little for the fish...a little for the pasta a little for the fish and so on.

Scott

[Jason McK]

I didn't want to get into this but...

From what I've read (nothing scientific) I was under the impresion that all garlic did was stimulate feeding. that way a sick fish would be more likely to eat and therefore stronger to fight the illness.
J

[fkshiu]

I didn't want to get into this but...

From what I've read (nothing scientific) I was under the impresion that all garlic did was stimulate feeding. that way a sick fish would be more likely to eat and therefore stronger to fight the illness.
J


Correct! It's no miracle cure - just gives 'em the munchies. Sorta like the wackytabacky for us humans. There's no harm in using it except for making your skimmer go nuts. Just don't expect it to be a cure all.

[rigger11]

here we go again..... magic cure this, snake oil that, when are we all going to learn that when ever mr. sk posts his "magic cure" or " you should try this" that all it does is gets a rise out of every single person on here! myself included!!! if we all just learned to ignore this guy maybe hed stop posting such absurd comments and ppl would not have to get banned or told to behave.

[Aquattro]

here we go again..... magic cure this, snake oil that, when are we all going to learn that when ever mr. sk posts his "magic cure" or " you should try this" that all it does is gets a rise out of every single person on here! myself included!!! if we all just learned to ignore this guy maybe hed stop posting such absurd comments and ppl would not have to get banned or told to behave.

So you thought you'd contribute what exactly?

[Bartman]

I've heard that Neon Gobies act as cleaners but I've no experience with them.

Cheers,
Vic [veng68]

I got a Neon Gobi for that reason and at the moment he is the fish with Ich. Maybe I should get another. :biggrin: