RO Unit on a well

[Slick Fork]

Hi there,

Just wondering if anyone has any tips on maximizing RO efficiency and membrane life with well water.

Our water from the tap is 768ppm, I just put a brand new Dow Filmtec 75gpd membrane in and the reading right off the membrane is 83ppm. I have not yet tested after the DI to see what that brings it down to. I just got the tds meter so I'll be interested in seeing what sort of lifespan I'm going to get out of this membrane.

So, if anyone has any tips to improve on this, I would really love to hear from them.

[robzilla]

what psi do you have?
i've got low psi from my well and i bought a booster pump. one of my best investments, improves rejection rates and cuts down on waste water

[DanG]

if your RO system has a flush (reverse flow)option, I suggest running it every couple of days to try and flush all the crap out of the membrane.

[Doug]

I ran my well water through a large mainline filter first, then to the water softener, then to the ro. The soft water is easy on membranes and the ro removes the softener salt for drinking purpose.

My feed from the softener was split, with part feeding the ro and the rest to the house fixtures that needed no ro water. The ro was only used to feed a spigot tap at the kitchen sink and the fridge water & ice maker, plus the tanks.

[Slick Fork]

Doug;
Are you talking about one of those big cannisters that you can buy at home depot?

Robzilla;
Where did you get your pump? I may look into ordering one as our PSI sort of hovers around 30ish

Dan:
I just installed a flush kit the other day, glad to hear it wasn't a waste of money!

[Psyire]

PSI of 30 is very low, you want at least 50.

[Doug]

Doug;
Are you talking about one of those big cannisters that you can buy at home depot?



I dont recall seeing the one they sell but would guess thats similar. Its just a large mainline prefilter. Mine came from the company that installed my equipment but they are pretty much standard. I purchased filters for around $12 from a wholesale plumbing outfit here and changed them 3 or 4 times/year. I did notice everytime I changed them, the old ones were sure full of crud from the well.

[robzilla]

i picked up the pump from purely h20
www.PurelyH2O.com

just reading on reefcentral about a discount with:
the code for RC members is: rcdiscount2007

not sure what discount you get but any little bit helps.

i bought the 100 gpd pump

[hillbillyreefer]

You guys with low pressure why not just adjust the pressure in your pressure system rather than buying a boost pump for your ro system. There should be a pressure switch on top of your pressure tank just increase the cut in/out values. I run mine at about 80 psi. Check your tank and make sure it can handle the pressure and you should be good to go.

[Slick Fork]

That's a really good point, have you noticed any adverse affects on your well pump or other peripherals such as livestock waterers etc.?

[bassman]

I ran my well water through a large mainline filter first, then to the water softener, then to the ro. The soft water is easy on membranes and the ro removes the softener salt for drinking purpose.

My feed from the softener was split, with part feeding the ro and the rest to the house fixtures that needed no ro water. The ro was only used to feed a spigot tap at the kitchen sink and the fridge water & ice maker, plus the tanks.

I was told to never use soft water in a aquarium. It removes too many minerals. This will cause your water to draw these minerals from other sources, such as pumps.

My house is on a well too. I filter the water when it enters the house with a cannister filter, then I tee off for my RO unit before the water softener.

It's hard to tell from your post but it kind of sounds like your drinking water is softened as well? It is not recommended to drink soft water, for the same reasons. Your body needs those minerals.

Just me 2 cents, please feel free to correct me. I am by no means an expert. LOL

[Doug]

I was told to never use soft water in a aquarium. It removes too many minerals. This will cause your water to draw these minerals from other sources, such as pumps.

My house is on a well too. I filter the water when it enters the house with a cannister filter, then I tee off for my RO unit before the water softener.

It's hard to tell from your post but it kind of sounds like your drinking water is softened as well? It is not recommended to drink soft water, for the same reasons. Your body needs those minerals.

Just me 2 cents, please feel free to correct me. I am by no means an expert. LOL


I never used soft water in the tank, as it ran through the ro unit first. Soft water is much easier on an ro membrane than the hard cold well water, which is murder on them. An ro/di removes everything from the water anyways, so not sure what you mean regarding the soft water removing minerals.

As a matter of fact I never filtered enough. I never ran a post di then. Big mistake as the high alk. of the well water, which a di removes, often screwed up my levels when mixed with Instant Ocean salt.

No soft water was used for human consumption, as it was passed through the ro before going to the fridge and sink. Pure soft water was teed to the rest of the house.

This was the suggested procedure. We once had a long thread on it on the chemistry forum at RC, and someone brought up similar points to you but Randy agreed with the way I have mentioned here.

I to am not an expert but just relating my experience. Perhaps someone who works in this field can add more. I have often wondered how the thousands of country folks who run water softeners and have no idea what an ro unit even is, get their drinking water. When I asked out in the country, they said they just drank it from the tap. Something I would not do also.

[Doug]

Here are a few links to some RC threads. I dont usually link another board but though it may offer some good info in this case. There was a lot of them. The last thread has someone posting another view but most agree with what I posted. I also seen a link to an article, which I never read yet.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1235896&highlight=water+softener

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1084930&highlight=water+softener

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1025891&highlight=water+softener

Hope some of this helps.

[hillbillyreefer]

Slick Fork: I haven't seen any adverse effects on the well or any other part of the system. The well is 40 years old this year, as far as I can tell the pump is only the second one that has been installed. There is a chance that noone else can remember another pump change. The pump that is in there now is a 1 hp, the well delivers about 35 gpm, and this pump is 11 years old.

[bassman]

I never used soft water in the tank, as it ran through the ro unit first. Soft water is much easier on an ro membrane than the hard cold well water, which is murder on them. An ro/di removes everything from the water anyways, so not sure what you mean regarding the soft water removing minerals.

As a matter of fact I never filtered enough. I never ran a post di then. Big mistake as the high alk. of the well water, which a di removes, often screwed up my levels when mixed with Instant Ocean salt.

No soft water was used for human consumption, as it was passed through the ro before going to the fridge and sink. Pure soft water was teed to the rest of the house.


I am stilll confused. If your water comes from the well, then to the water softener and finally to your RO unit all your water has been softened. Right? That was the very first thing that happened to the water.

The softening process removes all the hard minerals from the water so somewhere along the line those minerals would have to be put back in the water in order for it to no longer be soft.
Perhaps softeners do that? Maybe they put exceptable levels back in the water. I wouldn't think so as water straight from a softener is not recommended for consumption. This is due to the low mineral levels.

The RO unit won't put anything back in the water, it's nothing but a pre-filter, RO membrane (super tight filter) and carbon.

So by my figuring you end up with super filtered soft water, that has been treated with carbon.

Like I said I am no expert though. LOL

[Doug]

I am stilll confused. If your water comes from the well, then to the water softener and finally to your RO unit all your water has been softened. Right? That was the very first thing that happened to the water.

The softening process removes all the hard minerals from the water so somewhere along the line those minerals would have to be put back in the water in order for it to no longer be soft.
Perhaps softeners do that? Maybe they put exceptable levels back in the water. I wouldn't think so as water straight from a softener is not recommended for consumption. This is due to the low mineral levels.

The RO unit won't put anything back in the water, it's nothing but a pre-filter, RO membrane (super tight filter) and carbon.

So by my figuring you end up with super filtered soft water, that has been treated with carbon.

Like I said I am no expert though. LOL


Ok I see what you're concern is. I thought it was regarding drinking soft water itself.

Its the lack of minerals then. Is that not taken out by rodi? Would that not make it unhealthy then also? I though read a thread on that someplace and it was stated that the minerals lost can be compensated for elsewhere? Most people purchase store ro water to drink. I see on the dispenser where one can add minerals. Doubt many use it ? I dont know.

[bassman]

Ok I see what you're concern is. I thought it was regarding drinking soft water itself.

Its the lack of minerals then. Is that not taken out by rodi? Would that not make it unhealthy then also? I though read a thread on that someplace and it was stated that the minerals lost can be compensated for elsewhere? Most people purchase store ro water to drink. I see on the dispenser where one can add minerals. Doubt many use it ? I dont know.

Well both really. Your drinking water is now soft too. So you are not getting the proper minerals there either.

No, the RO unit does not remove the all the minerals, RO units are only filters, nothing more.

Yes minerals can be put back into your water, why bother though? Just don't remove them in the first place.

From what I have been told/read what a person is supposed to do in the home is to take the line from the well and filter it with a in-line canister filter. From there you tee the line. One goes to your softener. The other goes to your cold water tap in the kitchen and to your outside taps. You would use this for drinking, watering flowers, lawn, etc. and to feed your R/O unit.

[Slick Fork]

Well both really. Your drinking water is now soft too. So you are not getting the proper minerals there either.

No, the RO unit does not remove the all the minerals, RO units are only filters, nothing more.

Yes minerals can be put back into your water, why bother though? Just don't remove them in the first place.

From what I have been told/read what a person is supposed to do in the home is to take the line from the well and filter it with a in-line canister filter. From there you tee the line. One goes to your softener. The other goes to your cold water tap in the kitchen and to your outside taps. You would use this for drinking, watering flowers, lawn, etc. and to feed your R/O unit.

The RO/DI unit should bring the TDS down to zero, meaning it strips all the dissolved solids including minerals out of the water. Theoretically the output from RO/DI should be pure h2o. It sounds like running the water through the cannister and then the softener just does some of the work before the water even gets to the RO unit.

The reason we want RO units for our tanks is because we want to know EXACTLY what's added to the water. So we pull everything out and add in what we need. As far as drinking water goes, maybe a glass of gatorade every day is enough.

Hillbilly: So by jacking up the PSI on your pressure system, you haven't found any adverse effects on the well. How about the house and drinkers, etc. My big fear with that is having joints that can't handle the pressure and springing leaks where I can't find them until there's major damage done.

[bassman]

The RO/DI unit should bring the TDS down to zero, meaning it strips all the dissolved solids including minerals out of the water. Theoretically the output from RO/DI should be pure h2o.

Well there ya go, I learned something new today.

I guess a water softener does the exact same thing as RO then? or does it leave some minerals in? Is the need for a softener just to treat larger amounts of water?

[Slick Fork]

My understanding of a softener is that it just replaces some minerals with others to make the water "feel" less hard, but I'm not 100% on that one

[bassman]

My understanding of a softener is that it just replaces some minerals with others to make the water "feel" less hard, but I'm not 100% on that one

Just read up on it, softeners mainly remove calcium and magnesium ions.

When an ion exchanger is applied for water softening, it will replace the calcium and magnesium ions in the water with other ions, for instance sodium or potassium.

[hillbillyreefer]

Slickfork: Haven't had any trouble blowing joints or anything. System has been running that high since before I took over and that was 15 years ago. My old waterers rusted out and have been replaced with large tire waterers the valves on them are heavy duty. The old ones were Ritchie's with the plastic valves no problems until the bowls rusted out. Bowl waterers in the horse stalls with floats no troubles. Plastic pipe no problem. Nipple waterers for the old pig barn never a problem.

HTH
Brad

[Doug]

Well I will have to find more info. So your only problem is that someone drinking it will not get enough minerals with their water?

Hope we are not getting to far of topic Slickfork.

[bassman]

Well I will have to find more info. So your only problem is that someone drinking it will not get enough minerals with their water?

Hope we are not getting to far of topic Slickfork.

After doing some more reading I found that the minerals lost in the water are compensated for in our food. It would take 25 ltrs of water to equal 1 banana.

However I did read that the number of people suffering from cardiovascular disease is much LOWER in areas with the largest mineral count in their water. So I am not sure what to think now. LOL

Here is a link to one article I found, it is one of many stating the same thing.

http://www.triangularwave.com/f10.htm

[JimE]

Hey, just jumping in on this. I've recommended this before, but when looking for this kind of technical information look out of the hobby and go to the trade applications. Go where the industry goes for info and training. Also, be very leery of commercial/store websites as a source - the water treatment industry is full of snake oil and used car salesmen mainly using fear as their sales tool. Here's a link to the Canadian Water Quality Association that is more or less the "governing body" and training source of the trade.

http://www.cwqa.com/watertreatment.php

And a good article debunking misinformation

http://www.cwqa.com/water_treatment/misinformation.php


Can't remember all the little things I cringed at in this thread - but the R/O is *always* fed with softened water if available. Membranes don't like hardness or iron. Also check the specs on your unit before jacking around with the pressure or buying a feed pump - there are low pressure membranes out on the market.

Jim

[bassman]

Good links, thanks.

Now I am more confused then ever. LOL

[Doug]

[quote=bassman;282282]After doing some more reading I found that the minerals lost in the water are compensated for in our food. It would take 25 ltrs of water to equal 1 banana.

Yea, I kind of thought thats the argument I read in another thread someplace, discussing the same thing. However, like others, its just what I have read. The best link I posted on running the sofener first was in the thread with Randy. Now thats a good source.

Good links Jim. Thanks