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View Full Version : anyone with a magic cure or answer?


niloc16
11-09-2007, 12:39 AM
ok so some of you may know i have been battling a wicked case of brown cyano and i took some readings today for the 100th time here they are

po4 .05 (always been this the entire time the tank is running)
ca 400
dkh 8
nitrate undetectable
mg 1140 ( i know this is really low but cant get it up, i have an entire jar of zeomag in the reactor too)

i have recently cleaned all 3 tunzes and they are blowing like crazy. almost a week ago i guess i put 3 new mh bulbs in. i cleaned the skimmer recirc pump and it is hauling as usual. i have replaced all 3 filters in the ro unit twice in the past 2 months. i have not changed the ro membrane

i have lost about $250 in ricordia, $150 in blastos, frogspawns are retracted qutie a bit, a few sps tips are stripped out. i have lost a branching cyphastrea that i got off marc and it was rockin in the tank. i have lost 1 sps colony and i think 2 little frags. the snails are flipping over everyday i guess because the cyano is poisoinous to them. cant count how many have died

i dont know what else. i syphon it off every week and by the next week its back on the rocks. when i syphon the sand the next day its back with a vengeance. i was thinking lately that the bulbs were prematurely expired and causing it, but i dont know how long after the new ones are in would the cyano disappear

so i guess i'm asking what else is there to do? thanks in advance

Delphinus
11-09-2007, 12:45 AM
Once it gains a foothold it's really hard to get rid of it, by relying on water parameters alone. One dirty little secret I think most reefers won't admit to, but do secretly use, is the use of Red Slime Remover or Chemi-Clean or similar anti-cyano product. They make your tank go bright yellow and even smell like a banana, you'll think, OMG what have I done, but ride it out. It doesn't stay yellow forever. Turn your skimmer off because it will go NUTS (or better yet, just have it empty back into your tank, because it does depress your O2 levels), and after a couple days do a water change and run carbon to clear it out. In a really bad case you might have to run a second course a week or two later.

Assuming your parameters are good (and what you've posted, they are), the cyano shouldn't come back. If it does come back quickly, it means there's a reason, be it parameters or light or whatever.

However, one "food for thought" item, cyano is very often the result of elevated nitrates. You posted that your nitrates are undetectable. What are you using for testing nitrates, because I don't always believe a zero reading for nitrate.

marie
11-09-2007, 12:49 AM
Not that I think it would make that much of a difference in treatment but are you sure it's cyano? If it's getting your snails it sounds more like dinoflagellates (aka "brown snot")

niloc16
11-09-2007, 12:55 AM
it is like brown snot but really resemble cyano in form. i am using elos test kits.

Aquattro
11-09-2007, 01:14 AM
dying snails? Yup, I'd agree dinos.

jslaney
11-09-2007, 01:22 AM
A freshwater trick when battling green cyano is to use antibiotics.

The antibiotic I used was called Erythromycin, it is generally sold to cure ick and other bacterial infections in you LFS.

From what I understand of it, cyano is actually more of a bacteria then algea. The antibiotic is not supposed to affect your benificial bacteria because they are generally a different type. Something about being gram positive while cyano is gram negative.

I have no idea if it a good idea in SW but it works like a mirical in FW. You could easily find lots of info on using it in fresh water with a quick google search. here is a link to a site I like.

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/

Klick on Blue green algea (Cyanobacteria)

I would strongly recomend talking to some of the more experianced reefers before using it. Its a pretty common fix in FW so the fact that its not being used in SW kinda tells me that there is probably a reason.

Sorry about all the losses.

Jon

marie
11-09-2007, 01:28 AM
I hate being the bearer of bad news but if it is dinoflagellates, it is really hard to get rid of (ask christy). cyano is a walk in the park in comparison :sad:

Aquattro
11-09-2007, 02:27 AM
The antibiotic I used was called Erythromycin, it is generally sold to cure ick and other bacterial infections in you LFS.



This is what the Red Slime remover product is

Joe Reefer
11-09-2007, 02:50 AM
I had a dino outbreak in my last tank. Its a real pain in the rear. I always had a feeling it was from the sandbed, it just wasn't "live" enough if you know what I mean. It was full of worms and snails but i think it was lacking in other beneficial bacteria and such. It seemed to just become a detritus trap and fueled the fire more. In retrospect and reading a few recent articles published I had the sandbed idea all wrong.

Der_Iron_Chef
11-09-2007, 02:54 AM
Be careful with Erithromycin. If you decide to use it, I would dose half the recommended amount. I did an awesome job wiping out half my livestock with the stuff at one point.

fkshiu
11-09-2007, 04:19 AM
It does sound like dinos rather than cyano. One way to be sure is to try a does of the Chemi-Clean (be sure to follow the directions to a "T"!). If it does nothing then you know its dinos.

Not sure if it's the magic bullet you're looking for but a tactic I came across on RC is an extended blackout period for several days.

This is of course in addition to the standard recommendations of feeding/stocking less, employing macro algae/phosphate removers and water changes.

niloc16
11-09-2007, 05:56 AM
i thought about making a blackout but how long could the corals go without light before they died. i dont mind them browning but there is some pieces i really dont want to lose

skylord
11-09-2007, 06:59 AM
Here is an article worth reading....

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php


Scott

SuperFudge
11-09-2007, 01:47 PM
Colin,

Get some Calcium chloride, and shut down your reactor for two weeks.

At the very least, we can write off one potential culprit.

Mine has been a source of problems in the past, everytime i shut it down for a few weeks.....the problems go away, i just couldnt say wether it was the media, the Mg granules, or the c02 fueling the problem.

Marc.

michika
11-09-2007, 02:01 PM
i thought about making a blackout but how long could the corals go without light before they died. i dont mind them browning but there is some pieces i really dont want to lose

I have done up to 4.5 days with no issues. I think the trick is to really black it out. I covered mine with towels so no light got in. I would assume the fish, corals, and clams, all thought it was just a really long evening.

christyf5
11-09-2007, 02:15 PM
If your snails are dying its definitely dinoflagellates. Siphon as much as you can and try reduced light levels. I wouldn't do more than a couple of days if you have any prized corals, either that or get someone to babysit them (dip them before they go into any other tank). Then black out the tank for longer than a couple of days. These things are horrible to get rid of, they are persistent and resistant to most treatments. I battled them for a year and the only way I finally got rid of them was to remove the sandbed, powerwash the rock and completely restart the system (worst case scenario IMO).

Things I tried that you may have success with:

increased pH
increased alkalinity
increased skimming
reduced photoperiod
no photoperiod (blankets over the tank too)
adding a refugium
dripping kalk


And some links to read:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21964&highlight=dinoflagellates

Good luck.:biggrin:

tang daddy
11-09-2007, 05:19 PM
niloc sorry to hear about your losses! does anyone maybe even christy have any pics of what it looks like the dreaded dino so that others can detect it better if god forbid we ever get it.

christyf5
11-09-2007, 06:19 PM
I'll try and find some of my old pics. It was a painful time so I don't know if I have many around.

Delphinus
11-09-2007, 07:08 PM
I went through it twice and am pretty sure I never took any pictures of it either (not the sort of thing you want to remember). The first time I had it, I tried everything (I mean everything) and nothing did anything for it. I had to do the tank-blackout thing several times before it went away permanently. The second time, well, it happened just as I was moving. The disruption of the tank move seemed to kick it. Although it was about a week before I was able to finish the wiring at the new place and get my halides going, so that might have been a part of it.

As far as cyano versus dinoflagellates ... I'm not sure that snails dying is a complete slam dunk for an ID. I think cyano will kill off snails too. One thing that sticks out in memory about dinos was that they literally disappear during the lights-out period. So if you're starting the day off with a clean tank but fininishing the day with gobs of goo everywhere, it's dinoflagellates. Cyano forms more sheets that cover everything, dinos can be a little more string-like. And bubbles everywhere, bubbles like crazy. And it doubles in population so insanely fast. I found I could siphon nearly 100% out of my tank, and within about 6 hours the tank would like I hadn't done it at all since it was completely back.

blaster
11-09-2007, 11:17 PM
I would take out part of your sand bed.

christyf5
11-10-2007, 02:44 AM
Here are some photos. I found the dinos grew best on top of other algaes.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b365/christyf5/dinoflagellatey%20goodness/craptastic2.jpg

And sometimes other algaes grew on top of it :razz:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b365/christyf5/dinoflagellatey%20goodness/algaetriad.jpg

Yeah I'm pretty good at growing algae I'd say. Thank goodness those days are over!!

kwirky
11-10-2007, 05:25 AM
omg i think I had that in my 120g tank! THAT crap is what caused me to throw my arms up in frustration and get rid of my reef tank in July! I had zero nitrates, zero phosphates, reduced lighting period, hand removed. nothing worked.

It bubbled, it was like brown snot, and it multiplied like crazy no matter how much I removed. It was an endless battle. I thought it was a slime algae but now in retrospect I'm having second thoughts. Bubbled like crazy and was kinda stringy. I look at that photo and I'm sure it's EXACTLY what I had.

Grew all over the back and side glass (kept the front clean daily with a magnet cleaner). It grew on everything plastic too. Pumps, pipes. It loved pull-zip-ties. There would be 5" long strings of the stuff off zip ties. I'd remove it and they'd be there again 2 days later. I had to feverishly remove it from the plugs of my frags. I was afraid it would grow onto the coral.

Good luck dude. That stuff won the battle in my previous tank: I took it down :(

On another note though my liverock was kept in a pitch black rubbermaid bin for a few months and now there's NO pests left on my liverock. Most of the macroalgae that was getting out of control is gone too. If you take down your tank in frustration just store your rock for a few months n start a tank back up again :)

Delphinus
11-10-2007, 05:29 AM
It bubbled, it was like brown snot, and it multiplied like crazy no matter how much I removed. It was an endless battle. I thought it was a slime algae but now in retrospect I'm having second thoughts. Bubbled like crazy and was kinda stringy. I look at that photo and I'm sure it's EXACTLY what I had.

Based on this description alone, without question, you had dinoflagellates.

I nearly tore down the tanks I had it in too when I was fighting it. It's demoralizing.

tang daddy
11-10-2007, 06:40 AM
Thanks for the pics christy I was just comparing it to what I thought I might have had awhile back but no bubbles on mine, it happened after I took fishes out of the reef and lasted about 2 months.

kwirky
11-10-2007, 06:59 AM
Based on this description alone, without question, you had dinoflagellates.

I nearly tore down the tanks I had it in too when I was fighting it. It's demoralizing.

I think the problems I had can be largely attributed to buying livestock and rocks from people getting out of the hobby. I'm sure a fair portion of these people are getting out due to pests they were unable to control. Lesson learned I guess.

christyf5
11-10-2007, 04:04 PM
Yeah I battled this stuff for a year. It would come in cycles, I'd turn the lights off etc. It would be gone for about 2 weeks or so. I'm pretty sure that my huge caulerpa field is what was feeding it. The dinos would appear, I'd do my no lights trick, they'd go. Then the caulerpa would grow like crazy so I'd rip it out then about a week later the dinos were back. I could calculate to the week when they'd appear. It was pretty bad. Eventually I powerwashed all the rock to get the caulerpa off but there was no stopping the dinos at that point. I think they got resistant to all the stuff I used to do to them. Eventually I ripped out my aragonite sandbed and replaced it with sugar sand. Sure enough about 4-6 weeks later the dinos were back. It wasn't until I totally shocked the system by taking the sandbed out completely that the dinos were finally gone for good. I do sort of freak out when I see bubbly algae in my tank but its usually the result of microbubbles sitting on something. Its like 'nam flashbacks for me :razz:

Kryten
11-11-2007, 05:43 PM
I just started dosing with kalk, we'll see if that helps any. I suspect this may be what I have too.