Plumbing, A few new Questions

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I will start by saying, I have never plumbed a tank on my own and the one tank I had my brother help me with, I was not really paying attention:redface: Well he is not in town to help me right now, so I need help.

I just got a custom new tank from a member here. Its around 115G I guess...6'x20"deep and 18"tall. Nice and shallow. This is a FOWLR tank for my puffers. The tank is drilled in the bottom with 4-2" bulkheads. 2 Are going to be used for a closed loop and 2 for the overflow/return.

The closed loop is easy enough for me but I have no idea right now how exactly Im going to plumb the overflow/sump/return. I am going to use two rubbermaid containers for the sump and refugium, plumbed together.

So, Overflow situation...Im using the 2-2" bulkheads that are located in the back center of the tank. As I said, they are drilled in the bottom. What would you recommend? I was going to do a standard glass overflow (toothless) with a durso standpipe and then plumb the return back up through the other bulkhead to the top of the overflow and back into the tank. Only problem is, the tank is eurobraced...I would have to extend the overflow way out into the tank to be able to access inside it for maintenance because of the eurobrace overhang. Any other methods I could use to avoid this? I can't use a shorter overflow because the tank is already so shallow.

For a return pump, Im looking at buying a external reeflo pump. not sure which one yet though.

Here is a pic of the tank. Any advice would be awesome. I will have many more questions down the road but just need to get a design at least first!

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Justinpsmith/DSC00425.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Justinpsmith/DSC00431copy.jpg

[mark]

Running somwhat similiar (2-2" overflows w/Dursos, 1" return, CL with 2" in, 4-1" out). My tank is eurobraced as well but just along the long length, no bracing on the sides and thats where my overflows are.

Can't tell fr your photos if your bracing on the sides but something to consider is put a the overflow tower on the end (from your picture, swap the CL and overflow placement).

Also for a return pump, since you are planning a CL, you can rely on that for circulation and scale back on the flow through the sump. With the CL providing the flow in the tank, really running any more gph than the skimmer can handle is just an extra.

[Jason McK]

Yes I agree I would have an acrylic over flow box built around your overflow drains. (I think OA can do this for you)

something to consider. The stand seems fairly low. you may find you have difficulty finding things hat can fit under it, Like a skimmer. I know you have invested a lot of time into the stand but I would raise it. It could also just be the perspective of the image.


As for sump/Fug I would baffle the refugium so that water from the overflow drains into the baffle then through the Fug then into the sump and returned to the tank. This will elliminate any bubbles returning to the main tank. Also you will not have to worry about the return pump sucking anything from the Fug into the display or clogging the return pump

J

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Yeah the euro bracing is just running the length of the tank, not the width. I was originally going to use this tank as a room divider and have the overflow and return on the end (against the wall) but since I am not using it as a room divider anymore, I wanted to use the middle holes instead. I think I might save myself a lot of trouble by just using the end bulkheads as the overflow still. Only reason I dont like that, is I didnt want to see any plumbing from the sides of the tank (through the glass).

Do you have pictures of how your plumbing is set up?

Thanks.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Yes I agree I would have an acrylic over flow box built around your overflow drains. (I think OA can do this for you)

something to consider. The stand seems fairly low. you may find you have difficulty finding things hat can fit under it, Like a skimmer. I know you have invested a lot of time into the stand but I would raise it. It could also just be the perspective of the image.


As for sump/Fug I would baffle the refugium so that water from the overflow drains into the baffle then through the Fug then into the sump and returned to the tank. This will elliminate any bubbles returning to the main tank. Also you will not have to worry about the return pump sucking anything from the Fug into the display or clogging the return pump

J

The stand is fairly low at just a few inches over 2 feet. The thing that makes it look very low, is the tank. Because its only 18" tall. Makes the stand look even lower. I may raise it a bit though. The skimmer Im using is 2 feet with the collection cup, so not much room really.

I like your fuge/sump idea. I am using a external return pump which could be plumbed after the sump. I think that would be the best way to go. Have any of you ever plumbed rubbermaids together? I may just end up going with tanks...I have heard of people plumbing rubbermaids but never really seen it. Would it just be the same as plumbing (connecting) two glass tanks together.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

So, I think to make life a bit easier, I will use the end holes for the overflow and return. I have a few more questions...Bare with me, these questions are probably stupid and simple but I have never done this before...

1. These are 2" bulkheads, what size PVC should I be plumbing the drain line with and will 2" bulkheads not be a bit much flow draining from a 115G tank? What about PVC size for building the standpipes? (I have never built them before). I have a whole bunch of 2" and 1.5" PVC that I would like to try to use if possible.

2. What is a better option than a durso standpipe? I have used them before and they were still a bit loud...maybe built wrong though?

3. I know acrylic does not bond to glass well at all. What do most of you do to solve this problem if you build an acrylic overflow? I guess its not really being used under pressure and the "suction" from the water flowing over it, may help keep it in place? Sorry if that sounds like a stupid question:redface:

4. What about painting the acrylic overflow? I would rather use the acrylic I have than buy black stuff. Are there any paints that are safe INSIDE the tank?

5. Same question are earlier, what about plumbing rubbermaid type containers together? How well does this work? I would need to connect them...

6. Whats the best spot in Vancouver to buy plumbing supplies? I have had a hard time finding any 2" bulkheads or anything for 2" PVC. I have a bunch of 2" PVC and would like to use it but can't find elbows, unions, valves, ect. in that size...only abs stuff.

I think I will draw a few of the plans up soon and that may help you guys help me:mrgreen:

Thanks for your help though!

[Jason McK]

So, I think to make life a bit easier, I will use the end holes for the overflow and return. I have a few more questions...Bare with me, these questions are probably stupid and simple but I have never done this before...

1. These are 2" bulkheads, what size PVC should I be plumbing the drain line with and will 2" bulkheads not be a bit much flow draining from a 115G tank? What about PVC size for building the standpipes? (I have never built them before). I have a whole bunch of 2" and 1.5" PVC that I would like to try to use if possible.

you must alway build a stand pipe or Durso 1/4" bigger than the bulkhead. But you can get around this by building a 2 inch Durso and then after the bulk head redoes the PVC size to 1 1/2 (1 3/4 is hard to find)

2. What is a better option than a durso standpipe? I have used them before and they were still a bit loud...maybe built wrong though?
Mine have always been dead silent. A lot depends on height or the Derso

3. I know acrylic does not bond to glass well at all. What do most of you do to solve this problem if you build an acrylic overflow? I guess its not really being used under pressure and the "suction" from the water flowing over it, may help keep it in place? Sorry if that sounds like a stupid question:redface:
Silicone made for Aquariums you can get large tubes of it at OA and hidden reef

4. What about painting the acrylic overflow? I would rather use the acrylic I have than buy black stuff. Are there any paints that are safe INSIDE the tank?
I would just buy the black stuff

5. Same question are earlier, what about plumbing rubbermaid type containers together? How well does this work? I would need to connect them...
I've seen a lot of them. they work well. You just have to make sure the bulkhead is sealed well.

6. Whats the best spot in Vancouver to buy plumbing supplies? I have had a hard time finding any 2" bulkheads or anything for 2" PVC. I have a bunch of 2" PVC and would like to use it but can't find elbows, unions, valves, ect. in that size...only abs stuff.
Terasen (but it's not called that anymore) on River Road behind Richmond Home Depot

I think I will draw a few of the plans up soon and that may help you guys help me:mrgreen:

Thanks for your help though!


Hope I've helped I'm sure you'll get more responses

J

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Yes that helps. Im still a bit confused though about the standpipe thing. Do you mean, I can build it with 2" PVC and then after the bulkhead reduce down to 1 1/2" PVC for the rest of the return? I thought the durso always had to be bigger than the bulkhead for some reason...

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Anyone also have a good link to a thread or site that really shows plumbing step by step? I know all plumbing if different but I really would like to see it done step by step. Even stuff like building the standpipes...I know they are simple but again, I have never done it.

[mark]

comment about the Dursos.

I read as well that you should go up one size but my experience it's not required with the larger pipe size.

I'm running 2-2" threaded bulkhead with Dursos and they are both silent and I'm splitting probably 1000gph between them.

To make, just threaded a 2" TA into the bulkhead and built up from there staying with 2". The only mod I did was because of limited space in the overflow towers using 2", and since couldn't find a 2" street elbow, was to basically make one by cutting the 90 and Tee back before coupling.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h316/das75/two_inch.jpg

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Ok that helps, thanks. Is your overflow acrylic with black egg crate? That looks like how I might be doing mine.

Another thing Im wondering about, is my skimmer. Its a PM Bullet 2. I would prefer to have it in-line and not in the sump. Is this possible? I feel like an idiot asking but I have no idea??? If I did put it in-line, where "in-line" would you recommend and how is it done?

I know a lot of my questions are pretty basic but you guys are helping so much! I really want to get as much done this weekend as possible but have been really stuck:sad:

[mark]

Always a good link http://www.melevsreef.com/links.html

The standpipe http://www.dursostandpipes.com/

Lots of pictures of plumbing , including CL http://www.oceansmotions.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=aa8c321c52649d0a7087fe9e5e1657cf

And for options for standpipe, do a search here for Herbie, haven't actually seen or heard one but understand they're good.

[mark]

my overflows are glass covered with 1/8" or thinner black acyclic sheet

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I think I will go with glass too. Not too sure how acrylic will bond to glass long term...

Thanks for your help Mark.

[untamed]

Everyone here seems to really support the durso idea. I couldn't make a durso run absolutely silently, so I went a different way.

I use the "silent siphon". This method demands that your entire flow can go down one of your drain holes. You can test this by temporarily blocking one of the drain holes to verify the other can take the entire flow.

If that is the case, you put a gate valve on the one overflow and choke back the flow until it just starts to rise in the overflow box. As it rises up, it reaches an equilibrium steady state. You now have 100% of the flow going through that single drain with no air bubbles entering the drain. As there is no air entering, there is no sound. The drain pipe can exit underwater in the sump and there is no bubbling or splashing in the sump.

The 2nd drain is unusued. You put a standpipe on it so that if the 1st drain ever blocks, the 2nd drain will kick in and take the flow. That way, there's no risk of flood.

If you want to see it in operation, come by anytime. It is easier to understand if you see it working.

[Jason McK]

You and your wacky Ideas. LOL

J

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Everyone here seems to really support the durso idea. I couldn't make a durso run absolutely silently, so I went a different way.

I use the "silent siphon". This method demands that your entire flow can go down one of your drain holes. You can test this by temporarily blocking one of the drain holes to verify the other can take the entire flow.

If that is the case, you put a gate valve on the one overflow and choke back the flow until it just starts to rise in the overflow box. As it rises up, it reaches an equilibrium steady state. You now have 100% of the flow going through that single drain with no air bubbles entering the drain. As there is no air entering, there is no sound. The drain pipe can exit underwater in the sump and there is no bubbling or splashing in the sump.

The 2nd drain is unusued. You put a standpipe on it so that if the 1st drain ever blocks, the 2nd drain will kick in and take the flow. That way, there's no risk of flood.

If you want to see it in operation, come by anytime. It is easier to understand if you see it working.

I think I do understand actually. It makes sense. Plus I think that since my drains are both 2" and I do not want that much flow through my refugium and sump anyways, this could work for my set up. I think if my drains were smaller than 2" then it may not work as well. What size are your drains?

Thanks for the idea too.

[spoot]

Ok that helps, thanks. Is your overflow acrylic with black egg crate? That looks like how I might be doing mine.

Another thing Im wondering about, is my skimmer. Its a PM Bullet 2. I would prefer to have it in-line and not in the sump. Is this possible? I feel like an idiot asking but I have no idea??? If I did put it in-line, where "in-line" would you recommend and how is it done?

I know a lot of my questions are pretty basic but you guys are helping so much! I really want to get as much done this weekend as possible but have been really stuck:sad:

GSP, the PM bullet 2 can run external, but I'm not sure about inline. I have the bullet 3 for my ceylons' 120g. The guy I purchased it from had the pump fed from a section of his sump that tank water overflowed into. The skimmed water would then drain into the return chamber to be pumped back up into the tank. His overflow gph was higher than the skimmer pump GPH so he did not have to worry about it running dry.

When I eventually hook up my skimmer, it will be in a recirculating fashion. My over flow will be less than half of the GPH of my skimmer pump, so my skimmer will drain into the same chamber as the pump intake.

Not sure if this makes sense. It's a little late and I'm lacked of sleep.

[mark]

what you got there untamed is described as a Herbie

picture here (http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=31913&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500)

and Herbie's 31 page thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=344892&perpage=25&pagenumber=1) on RC

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

GSP, the PM bullet 2 can run external, but I'm not sure about inline. I have the bullet 3 for my ceylons' 120g. The guy I purchased it from had the pump fed from a section of his sump that tank water overflowed into. The skimmed water would then drain into the return chamber to be pumped back up into the tank. His overflow gph was higher than the skimmer pump GPH so he did not have to worry about it running dry.

When I eventually hook up my skimmer, it will be in a recirculating fashion. My over flow will be less than half of the GPH of my skimmer pump, so my skimmer will drain into the same chamber as the pump intake.

Not sure if this makes sense. It's a little late and I'm lacked of sleep.

It makes a bit of sense but I still dont really get it:sad:

My overflow will definitely be more GPH than my skimmer pump (mak4). I am really just trying to figure out how to run it externally if not in-line. Basically, I do not want it in my sump.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Oh and I like the "herbie" !:mrgreen:

[Todd]

basically if you want your skimmer to run inline you need to have it above your sump, so that the water can fall back into the sump. A quiet way to do this would be to have it fall against a side of the sump or, down a sheet of glass. Or for a slick set up would be to have it plumbed into your rubbermaid sumps, making sure that the waterline in your sump is at the same level that you want your skimmer waterline to be. Basically since the skimmer is an 'open system' you cant have the skimmer sitting in the bottom of your cabinet and pump water up and over your sump, as it will cause the water in your skimmer to be too high, so you can raise up your skimmer, or lower your return into the sump.

So yes your skimmer can be run inline, but not in the same way that a pump could be.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Thanks, that helps alot. I kind of knew the return from the skimmer had to be above the water level in the sump but I was not sure. Only other question, is where and how would I put it "in line"?

As for the overflow, I think I will try the herbie style because I like the simplicity and the silence that most people seem to get. I will have to plumb my return over the back of the tank instead of back through the overflow (because you need both drains for the herbie method) but thats ok. I will use a Gate valve to restrict the flow instead of a ball valve. Anyways, I think its a great idea! I am though still wondering about what return pump to use for this method.

I had originally planned on using a Dart for the return but that may just be too much anyways. The drain is 2" (I forget how much GPH that is), so Im sure it could handle a Dart but maybe something smaller would be better? What do you guys think? I prefer an external pump for sure though. Oh I just realized that Darts can be throttled back too...Maybe thats the best idea then.

[spoot]

If you want your skimmer pump to be fed from the overflow pipe, your overflow GPH, and thus your return pump GPH must be higher than the mak 4 GPH (which is ~1100GPH). The excess water from the overflow would be tee-d off into the first chamber of your sump.

If you just want to have the skimmer fed from the sump, all you need to do is drill 2 holes in the sump. one for the skimmer pump and the other for the skimmmer drain.

Are you going to have a refugium?

Make a sketch of your plan in ms paint and we can work from there.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Thanks Spoot! No I do not want it fed from my overflow pipe. I just want it plumbed into one of the rubbermaids. Or I may plumb it between the first rubbermaid and the second which is the refugium. The refugium will be the bigger container. The first one is just for the overflow return and stuff like heaters. Although I may just end up using two containers the same size and then putting the skimmer IN the first one. Not sure yet.

I will draw up a few of the different plans and post them soon.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

1st rough drawing of plans...Pick it apart!!!

Thanks.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Justinpsmith/Design1.jpg

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

What size pump would you guys recommend for this? Do you think the Dart would be good or should I just go smaller?

Oh and the return is going to end up being over the back. For the "herbie" style overflow I need both bulkheads in the overflow box because one is used as an emergency drain.

[mark]

What size pump would you guys recommend for this? Do you think the Dart would be good or should I just go smaller?

Oh and the return is going to end up being over the back. For the "herbie" style overflow I need both bulkheads in the overflow box because one is used as an emergency drain.

Your plans for this tank is FOWLR correct? Have you selected a pump for the CL?

[untamed]

It looks like you've planned some sort of strainer over the intake of the primary Herbie drain. That will cause you minor irritation because as it blocks up with stuff, you'll be constantly adjusting the gate valve to compensate for the change in flow caused by the strainer.

You can try it and find out. Easy to remove it later.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Your plans for this tank is FOWLR correct? Have you selected a pump for the CL?


I think going to use a Sequence Dart most likely for the closed loop, which means I may go with something smaller for the return, just to have less flow through the sump. Does that make sense? The Dart closed loop should give the tank enough flow I think...

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

It looks like you've planned some sort of strainer over the intake of the primary Herbie drain. That will cause you minor irritation because as it blocks up with stuff, you'll be constantly adjusting the gate valve to compensate for the change in flow caused by the strainer.

You can try it and find out. Easy to remove it later.

Yeah I was going to because I did some research and keep seeing that done. How is yours? Im not set on doing that though. I think the main idea is to keep any small fish or snails, ect out of the plumbing but since this is a FOWLR with no snails, crabs or small fish (smallest is 4") I may not need it.

[spoot]

Not sure how the herbie works (haven't read up on it) But by the picture, it looks as though the overflow pipe for the herbie is only halfway up the tank. How high will it be in real life? If it is this low, you will have a lot of water draining into sump in the event of a power outage.

From the looks of your diagram, what you should do is just drill a hole in the sump for the skimmer pump. Then drill a hole in the refuge for the skimmer output. That would solve your problem.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Herbie works by using the gate valve to match the overflow gph to the return pump gph exactly. This then does not let air into the the plumbing and therefor is very quiet. To do this, the main drain needs to be a few inches underwater in the overflow. Or you can just use a strainer in the bottom, doesnt matter.

As for a power outage, I dont see how its much different than any overflow...It will drain until the water goes below the teeth of the overflow box and then water will stop flowing into the overflow and then can't possibly go into the sump anymore. So basically maybe an inch of water. Where the pipe is, doesnt make a difference.

Your idea for the skimmer is good. I may have to just put it in the sump though depending if I make my stand higher or not. If its not made higher, I would not be able to have the skimmer raised up so that the return feeds back down inot the refugium.

[Jason McK]

As untamed commented I would strain the overflow with a filter bag in the sump. Much easier to clean and will not effect the 'Herbie" (why isn't this called a Therlow)

Filter Bag (http://oceanaquatics.com/store/product/556/Filter-Bag-50-Micron--Hoop/)

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

As untamed commented I would strain the overflow with a filter bag in the sump. Much easier to clean and will not effect the 'Herbie" (why isn't this called a Therlow)

Filter Bag (http://oceanaquatics.com/store/product/556/Filter-Bag-50-Micron--Hoop/)

What would you use inside the overflow then?

[Jason McK]

Just slip it over the exit tube of the overflow. It's best to get 4 or 5 so as they get dirty your can through a bunch of them in the wash.

J

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

So do you mean I should have nothing inside the overflow over the bulkhead, just the filter sock in the sump?

[Jason McK]

So do you mean I should have nothing inside the overflow over the bulkhead, just the filter sock in the sump?

Yup.

[spoot]

Herbie works by using the gate valve to match the overflow gph to the return pump gph exactly. This then does not let air into the the plumbing and therefor is very quiet. To do this, the main drain needs to be a few inches underwater in the overflow. Or you can just use a strainer in the bottom, doesnt matter.

As for a power outage, I dont see how its much different than any overflow...It will drain until the water goes below the teeth of the overflow box and then water will stop flowing into the overflow and then can't possibly go into the sump anymore. So basically maybe an inch of water. Where the pipe is, doesnt make a difference.

Your idea for the skimmer is good. I may have to just put it in the sump though depending if I make my stand higher or not. If its not made higher, I would not be able to have the skimmer raised up so that the return feeds back down inot the refugium.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the overflow box! You are ok then :D Is the second overflow plumbed into the sump as well then too? it wasn't connected to anything in the pic.

How big are you GSP's? My ceylons are 1.75" without tail, so I won't be attaching my skimmer/refug for a while.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Yup.

Oh ok. I had thought about doing that when I was drawing up the plans but when I looked at other peoples "herbie" style overflows, they all had some kind of strainers in the overflow. I like the idea of having the strainer (filter sock) in the sump instead because that seems way easier. Thanks for the idea!

What about flow through the sump/refugium? I still want to use a Sequence Dart for the return pump and another Dart for the closed loop. I think that would give the tank enough flow. I would prefer not to have to use any powerheads.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the overflow box! You are ok then :D Is the second overflow plumbed into the sump as well then too? it wasn't connected to anything in the pic.

How big are you GSP's? My ceylons are 1.75" without tail, so I won't be attaching my skimmer/refug for a while.


Oh...I left out part of the drawing:neutral: The emergency overflow is plumbed directly to the sump. Above the water level so that if its ever kicked in, you would hear the splashing and know something is wrong.

I only have one GSP and hes about 4.5" without the tail. Hes been getting very fat lately though. I think he needs a diet! Hes in a tank by himself and this new tank is for my Porcupine and a school of blue chromis. I like having the one puffer as the center piece and then a bunch of "schooling" fish as kind of a "filler" (dont know what else to call them).

[Jason McK]

ya Darts hould do the trick

J

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

What would you guys recommend for baffles in a rubbermaid type container? Would acrylic still work well?

Also, Im still trying to find the containers...Anyone know a place in Vancouver with really good selection of Food grade rubber containers? Need to be food safe of course and I prefer clear.

Thanks.

[spoot]

Not sure how many food grade clear plastic containers you can find, especially ones that hold water. You could try some sort of weld-on to attach the baffles. But the fit isn't going to be that great unless you cut it very carefully; the plastic tubs are all weird shaped.

If you have the money, time and skill, consider getting some glass cut and siliconing yourself a sump. It would be the exact dimensions you need and you could do all the baffles at the same time.

[spoot]

Oh, and may I request some pics of your GSP? I love seeing big ones cuz not many people keep them in the propper conditions to have them grow to adult size.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Yeah the baffles in a rubbermaid container seem like more trouble than anything. I think I may rethink my sump. I actually have a few empty 33G tanks that would work, I just did not want to have to try drilling them. Might save me some trouble in the end though and would look nicer!

I will take pics of my GSP as soon as I can...I have no camera now. I can try with my camera phone though. Hes been a very healthy and tough GSP...Gone through ich twice and now even if other fish get ich, he NEVER does! He was also bit really badly on his belly a few months ago and it healed amazingly. I am very impressed with how tough their skin really is. I would guess its because it can stretch so well. I have never seen his puff up yet and Ive had him three years. My porcupine seems to puff up a few times a week for no apparent reason besides maybe wanting attention because he does it when Im watching the tank.

[spoot]

Some Porcs have been known to puff up for practice/attention. Does your's spit at you?

Sweet, can't wait for the pics. Pics for both please!

Pm SeaHorse_Fanatic, I think he has some glass drill bits, and will drill the tanks for a minor fee.

Do you have your GSP in marine sg now?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Some Porcs have been known to puff up for practice/attention. Does your's spit at you?

Sweet, can't wait for the pics. Pics for both please!

Pm SeaHorse_Fanatic, I think he has some glass drill bits, and will drill the tanks for a minor fee.

Do you have your GSP in marine sg now?


My porc spits with ridiculously good aim...He has spat right into my mouth twice now.

My GSP is in marine. He has been for about a year now and hes actually gotten brighter and more active. He seems to be doing very well in full marine. I got him in frashwater of course, even though he was already a bit big to still be in freshwater:neutral:

[spoot]

Awsome, my gf really wants a porc, but we don't have the tank space at the moment.

Good to see another pufferholic in vancouver! do you think we can come visit sometime? :D

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Yeah! As soon as I have the new tank up your welcome to come by. I will let you know. How many puffers do you have? You mentioned the Celyons...any others? Where did you get yours? I have not seen very many Ceylons around Vancouver before.

[spoot]

Sweet!
Only got 2 ceylons atm. In the future, will be getting a porc and a C. schoepfii (spiney burrfish). We actually got the from her lab proffessor at SFU. They were going to be used for some experiments I think. I really regret not saving more of them. The rest of them died cuz no one was taking care of them. There were about 10 total.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Thats cool that you saved the Celyons!

Anyways, back to plumbing...

How hard is it to drill glass tanks? I think I might want to just take advantage of the spare tanks I have and use them as sump/refugium. I have seen people "drill" them using a dremmel (sp.), has anyone here done this? I would be drilling relatively thin glass (1/4" I think) which actually makes me more nervous. Seems like drilling thicker glass would be easier.

[spoot]

LOL, sorry about the highjack!

There are lots of posts on RC about people drilling their own tanks. I think more people drill with bits rather than use dremmel. I think if you don't apply much pressure and let the drill bit do it's thing, you should be fine. Never done it though, but will when my GF lets me drill our tanks...

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Yeah, Im thinking I will have to go get a drill bit. Im really scared to drill a tank though. Only good thing is, these tanks are old and scratched, so if I screw up, its not so bad.

I will check RC for threads on drilling tanks.

[spoot]

If it's not too much to lose, it's totally worth the attempt to do it yourself!

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

If it's not too much to lose, it's totally worth the attempt to do it yourself!

Yes, I am going to attempt it! I will head out today to find the drill bits I think. Will let you know how it goes...either I will have a sump or a cracked tank!

[fencer]

You might consdier a diamond hole saw. I even think you can rent them from RONA. I haven't tried it yet but will in a week or so. Some of the shop people tell me to form a dam around the area you want to cut and fill it with motor oil or some other lubricant to take the heat away. Then be patient about drilling it.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

You might consdier a diamond hole saw. I even think you can rent them from RONA. I haven't tried it yet but will in a week or so. Some of the shop people tell me to form a dam around the area you want to cut and fill it with motor oil or some other lubricant to take the heat away. Then be patient about drilling it.

I have been reading up on it and yes, you need to make a dam around the area being drilled. I have only seen people run water through it while drilling though. I agree too that patients will be key!

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Where do you recommend I get the drill bits? I know they are pretty pricey...

[mark]

People were buying drill bits on eBay and I've seen the diamond dremel bits at Princess Auto.

Use water for cooling and just make the dam up with putty, your kids Playdough etc

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

People were buying drill bits on eBay and I've seen the diamond dremel bits at Princess Auto.

Use water for cooling and just make the dam up with putty, your kids Playdough etc

Yeah I just found some on ebay for quite cheap. May not last long but I only need to drill 4 holes in relatively thin glass, so I think they may do the trick.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

What size hole is generally needed for a 1.5" bulkhead? I thought 2" but does it depend on the bulkhead itself? Or is there a standard?

[fencer]

You should phone up rona to see if they rent the bits. I bought some holesaws from ebay but I never did look for bits.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

You guys think this retrofit would be enough light to make my fish look good???:mrgreen:

Would I be better just ordering two? Nice thing with retrofit is I can just add another if its not enough!

Which bulbs would you recommend with it?

http://oceanaquatics.com/store/product/2480/T5-80W-60%22-Retrofit-Kit/

http://oceanaquatics.com/store/category/3/219/T-5-Bulbs-37%22-%26-Over/

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Im going with the T5 retro fit. Nicer reflectors and it will cover the tank nicer. I can also add another if its not bright enough.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Oh and another question. I got my closed loop pump from "Nautical" today...Thanks again for delivering man! Its a beast...It will be more than enough flow for my closed loop. Its rated at 6000 gph, so even with a bit of head loss and elbows, it will be a lot for a 115G tank. Now Im thinking that I will go with less flow through my sump and refugium because the return pump does not need to be a factor in providing the tank with flow. What would you say is ideal flow through a sump and refugium without being too little? Im thinking a MAG18 could work but it just seems like so little. Any ideas?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Or maybe the Sequence Snapper?

[mark]

Have a 145g with a Dart on a CL. Started with a monster pump pump that even with head loss was giving 2000+gph through my 75g sump full open. After running awhile, valved it back to ~1000gph which seemed better (pulling less bubbles through, more settling of detritus, etc).

Ended up replacing the return with an Iwaki 70 series (still get ~1000gph).

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Have a 145g with a Dart on a CL. Started with a monster pump pump that even with head loss was giving 2000+gph through my 75g sump full open. After running awhile, valved it back to ~1000gph which seemed better (pulling less bubbles through, more settling of detritus, etc).

Ended up replacing the return with an Iwaki 70 series (still get ~1000gph).

Yeah I may valve this thing back a bit. But this is a 6 foot tank and I want good flow across it. Its also going to be barebottom and really for that to work effectively needs lots of flow so no detritus settlings. But it will be set up with an option to valve it back if needed.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Overflow-Have the glass but need to make it black. Anyone ever used Krylon IN their tank for long term and had no bad effects? I don't think I would go this route but apparently its quite the debate around the net...Seems to be about 50/50 boths ways on whether its safe or not. Otherwise, I may just leave it clear and hide it with rockwork a bit and then hope coraline covers it fast.

Return Pump-I have the 2" drain for my overflow and want to keep the flow through my sump and refugium pretty low. What is a ideal flow in a sump/refugium? I have enough flow through my closed loop that the return does not need to be a factor in the tanks flow. I think I will use a mag drive, so a suggestion would be great. There will be just one elbow at the end of the return and the head will be about 5'.

[mark]

when you determine the flow, here's a couple of links for pump selection

http://www.reefs.org/library/pumps has the flow curves and wattage


http://reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php determine loss with plumbing and pump

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

when you determine the flow, here's a couple of links for pump selection

http://www.reefs.org/library/pumps has the flow curves and wattage


http://reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php determine loss with plumbing and pump

Is there such thing as an "ideal" flow though? Reason I ask, is with this style overflow, its all determined by the return pump, not the overflow itself. So I want to get a pump at the flow I need. Then I match the overflow to the pump and have the exact flow through the sump Im looking for.

Have not been able to find any reference though on what flow through a sump or refugium is good.

[mark]

You running a refugium and sump in series so that somewhat makes it harder to determine as they are two separate vessels with two separate purposes.

If you were overflowing into a sump having only a heater and skimmer easy, I would say just match your skimmer rating.

For a refugium see 5-10x the size of tank used (Calfo/Fenner) and I'm sure someone will say go 20X since a refugium can split into different types. You doing cheato only, thinking about a refugium in it's truest sense (a place a refuge for injured fish or area of no predation), a tank on the side for more delicate species (seahorses) etc. You don't need the flow of a reef tank but you don't want to go stagnate either.

If you had space or mod your plumbing you could split flows. I have planned a separate ref sitting above and to the side of my 75g sump fed either by teeing off one of the drains or off the return pump (most likely) and it would overflow into the main sump.

Didn't get it done yet so currently I have a single sump/ref combined. Using a 75g that has a skimmer in one section, two types of algae each in their own separate sections, areas for LR, heater etc. which works also.

I could reread the thread but guess I'm trying to say what's your goal and go from there. Then again you could drop a pump like this (http://216.187.96.54/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=35463&highlight=eheim) into your final ref tank and probably not look back. Maybe start another thread with a poll to get an idea for combined sump/ref return pump? Another good reference is Canreef TOTM and read through the setups of some of those great tanks for ideas.

btw I do feel for you. I had started planning my tank before the basement was even dug of the house I'm in now. Every time I finally said no more, this is what I'm going with, I would stumble onto another option. And even now it's setup, I'm still playing.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

You running a refugium and sump in series so that somewhat makes it harder to determine as they are two separate vessels with two separate purposes.

If you were overflowing into a sump having only a heater and skimmer easy, I would say just match your skimmer rating.

For a refugium see 5-10x the size of tank used (Calfo/Fenner) and I'm sure someone will say go 20X since a refugium can split into different types. You doing cheato only, thinking about a refugium in it's truest sense (a place a refuge for injured fish or area of no predation), a tank on the side for more delicate species (seahorses) etc. You don't need the flow of a reef tank but you don't want to go stagnate either.

If you had space or mod your plumbing you could split flows. I have planned a separate ref sitting above and to the side of my 75g sump fed either by teeing off one of the drains or off the return pump (most likely) and it would overflow into the main sump.

Didn't get it done yet so currently I have a single sump/ref combined. Using a 75g that has a skimmer in one section, two types of algae each in their own separate sections, areas for LR, heater etc. which works also.

I could reread the thread but guess I'm trying to say what's your goal and go from there. Then again you could drop a pump like this (http://216.187.96.54/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=35463&highlight=eheim) into your final ref tank and probably not look back. Maybe start another thread with a poll to get an idea for combined sump/ref return pump? Another good reference is Canreef TOTM and read through the setups of some of those great tanks for ideas.

btw I do feel for you. I had started planning my tank before the basement was even dug of the house I'm in now. Every time I finally said no more, this is what I'm going with, I would stumble onto another option. And even now it's setup, I'm still playing.

Mark, thanks for all your help! Its been great. And I know what you mean about stumbling into another option or realizing what you had wanted to do might not work so well.

Having said that, more changes I think:biggrin:

I will most likely now be using just one glass tank as a sump. I do not have room anymore for what I wanted to do. The Skimmer and Closed loop pump take up way more space than I thought. I am going to try to keep the closed loop pump on a "shelf" Im building under the stand to keep it off the ground and taking up more space but even then, space is becoming scarce!

As for the sump, its basically going to be a just refugium, in the sense that my skimmer will not be internal, nor will the return pump. I will post a new drawing soon to see if what Im now thinking will work.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

This is another thing I guess I need to consider...My skimmer pump is a Mak4 at 1190 gph. Im considering a Mag18 for a return at 1125 gph at 6' head and I will likely loose a bit more flow due to elbows. Will this cause any problems? Is this what you meant by matching the flow to my skimmer?

Sorry...Im confused again.:neutral:

[mark]

This is another thing I guess I need to consider...My skimmer pump is a Mak4 at 1190 gph. Im considering a Mag18 for a return at 1125 gph at 6' head and I will likely loose a bit more flow due to elbows. Will this cause any problems? Is this what you meant by matching the flow to my skimmer?

Sorry...Im confused again.:neutral:

Basically.

I have a ASM G3, ignoring the tank size it's rated for and the circulation pump rating (Sedra 5000 @500gph) it supposedly can process ~200gph (though I'm feeding mine with a MJ1200 I had around). If it was the only thing I had in my sump, technically running anymore water past it than 200gph is overkill. Now of course lots of other thing come into play and there are no rules, the idea is just to give a starting point.

Having said that, I'm probably pulling a 1000gph through my sump (it's also though a refugium), but I'm happy, tanks happy.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Ok, that makes sense then. I think I will go with a Mag18 then for sure. Its pretty close to the skimmer pump and will not be a ridiculous amount of flow running through my sump/refugium.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Got my lights today (At least what Im going to start out with). I ended up going with the 60" Sunlight Supply T5 2x80watt Retrofit kit. Im going to start with the two 80watt bulbs and see if it looks good enough for a FOWLR...The individual reflectors should distribute the light nicely I think, especially since its a relatively shallow tank. I am going to add another T5 retro kit for just actinics though to get a bit of a dusk dawn effect. May not need the full 60" though. Might just go 48" for those.

What would you guys recommend for moonlights? I need something that will look good on a 6 foot tank...