Finally, life is good...

[TANGOMAN]

There's no point to this topic other than sharing my long awaited excitement in seeing positive results and obtaining some fish that survive in the main tank after quarantine. Well, maybe there is one point. Or perhaps just an excuse...It gives me, and Bob, something to do/read as we both seem to have a lot of time on our hands :wink:
My Yellow Tang that developd Black Ich three days after bringing it home recovered, survived quarantine, overcame that swimming pattern that resembled a psychotic inmate, and is now "happy to see me" when I approach the 60g. Inverts. have done well in this tank in the past but fish have been a real problem. Nothing to do with moving every 6 months I'm sure...
I seem to have found the right combination of bulbs after three years of experimentation. Corals are improved and my Coraline is coming back with a vengence. Dosing Kalk for a month now has also helped I'm sure. I'm now ready to add a Royal Gramma, later, a Coral Beauty and finally a smaller "something" to complete the "color scheme" to accent the drapes... :roll: A long way to go yet but so much has improved since we bought this house last year !
My 90g still needs a lot of work but I think I've done what I can and I'll see what biology/chemistry can do with it. I removed and scrubbed all the hair algae off the rock. Replaced , over time, the "junk" substrate that was in the tank when I bought it. Fired up the new Actinics yesterday. (no smoke :D ). Dosing Kalk here as well. Removed the bio-balls from the corner overflow and hopefully my water input is of good quality now...I got a new "kid" in there as well ! A Lemon Peal Angel. She's a beauty. I got "her" after Christmas and released her from quarantine on Saturday. I wanted a Yellow Tang in this tank as well but the Angel just looked too good ! That screws up the whole "color scheme" in the front room though. :roll: . A Purple Tang is now on my must have list...besides, they're cheaper :roll: . Any recomendations for a fourth fish to join the Angel, Lionfish, and a "stupid" Neon Damsel ? Reef safe. :wink: Wrasse? Nah...
So all you folks who said there's some blue 'shrooms/frags (colts,leathers,yellow polyps?) for sale...the phone could be ringin' soon.
It's so nice to see hard work/patience be rewarded with positive reults...

Well Bob, that killed about 45 minutes for me, "how you doin'..."

ps Jonny, the posting about "lighting periods..." ???

[Delphinus]

Glad to hear it Doug. I'm also glad someone is having a better time these days...

Sounds like things are really coming along. I wish you continued success..

[AJ_77]

Got some shrooms for you. You said blue, right?

:wink:

[Bob I]

There are a few things available here also. What with changing the 50 to a FOWLR I have a few things ie. Green star Polyps, Green Hairy Mushrooms, White Colt, a bit of Organpipe, as it grows fast. Contasct me.

[TANGOMAN]

A.J. blue 'shrooms are what I'm after. :D We can arrange later ?(Feb meet.) And Bob, Hairy Mushrooms would be of interest. White Colt and Organ Pipe. Sounds great !!!! What color organ pipe ?
FOWLR you say...? Interested in a C.C. Starfish ? He's gotta' go prior to corals comin' in.
Ya' know Bob, if you and I were Mushrooms, the hairy 'shrooms would tease us eh... :(

[Bob I]

What color organ pipe ?
The pipes are red.

FOWLR you say...? Interested in a C.C. Starfish ? He's gotta' go prior to corals comin' in.
Is that a Chocolate Chip? What is the problem with them? Are they predatory?
Ya' know Bob, if you and I were Mushrooms, the hairy 'shrooms would tease us eh... :(
Sorry that's too deep for me. :( Oh maybe I just got it. We are follically challenged. Yes??

[TANGOMAN]

Hi Bob, yes, follically challenged was what I was gettin' at... :wink:
Red Pipe Organ is certainly of interest ! Wanna' make some money ? Can ya' total up what ya' want for all your "goods" and let me know.
The starfish is a Chocolate Chip Starfish. Predatory ? Uuuuh, ya' I suppose. Definately not reef safe. A nice "specimen" though. Approx. 5" diameter. "He" needs a good home.
I was afraid to ask earier but I'm goona' anyway...when you say your books are "not home right now..." Where do books go...? Just curious. :?

[rossb]

I was afraid to ask earier but I'm goona' anyway...when you say your books are "not home right now..." Where do books go...? Just curious
Well they go to my house. I have been checking them out and will be returning them soon. We are working at transforming our "tank of death" to something that is a bit more marine friendly.

[AJ_77]

"Tank of death?!?" That doesn't sound positive, Ross. Things not going well?

[Bob I]

"Tank of death?!?" That doesn't sound positive, Ross. Things not going well?

Tank of death is a bit of a misnomer. Ross bought some fish , which had arrived in the store very recently, and many died. Similar to the experience you had.

I took a chance and bought a Royal Grama from the same store. BTW they assured me they will not sell Cyanide caught fish. We will see, he is acting much more normally than the other one bought from the shop we no longer call bad names. I want some Chromis from the same shipment, but am waiting a couple of dfays.

[rossb]

"Tank of death?!?"

I waited 6 weeks to put anything in the tank (except live rock and sand..snails etc). I bought 2 chromas and 5 yellow damsels from some store and the chromas started gasping and died within 12 hours (it was part of a new shipment). The damsels were all breathing very quickly and have been dying slowly (they turn blue on the top and then croak). I have 1 left and he is turning blue :cry: .

I also added a (from a new shipment) a couple of clowns, a wrasse , a coral beauty and a sebae. The anglefish looked good, was eating and lasted 1 day...and the sebae keeps squiggling away and getting stuck in dark spots of the tank it is looking unhealthly.
I have my eye on another coral beauty and a couple of yellow tailed damsels that I am going to try. They have been in the store for just about 2 weeks and they seem to be breathing ok and look good.

I'm not hoping for a repeat performance.

[AJ_77]

Ross bought some fish , which had arrived in the store very recently, and many died. Similar to the experience you had.
I appreciate you coming to Ross' defense Bob, but I lost 2 fish over 6 months, not 8 fish in 2 weeks. Perhaps some extra caution and patience should be advised?

Ross, sorry to hear of these losses. As a guideline, I waited 2 months to add a pair of tiny clownfishes. My first 3 corals also came at about that time. This was in a 90 gallon. Even though your large tank should have an easier time adjusting to a new bioload, even one fish can offset the balance of a system, established or not.

[EmilyB]

Yes, adding a bunch of fish at once is almost a certain recipe for disaster, especially in such a young tank. :cry:

[TANGOMAN]

Good point Alan. Sounds like lots of "new-comers" in a short period of time. Sorry to hear you had some losses Ross. Hey Bob, where did ya' buy the Royal Gramma ? Is it that store at the end of Edmonton Tr. ? :?
(everyone seems relucctant to mention names anymore... :wink: ) I was at Pisces and Big Als last night in search of a R.G. and Big Als had none and Pisces had a couple. I didn't take one home as they both appeared to have "equilibrium problems". Looked fine otherwise. These fish do display some rather "odd" antics(Sp?) though in defense of their territory. My recently bought Lemon Peel and Yellow Tang from Pisces are both doing great.
ps. Alan, let me know what you'd like for some "blue 'shrooms".

[AJ_77]

ps. Alan, let me know what you'd like for some "blue 'shrooms".
A good home for them. :wink:

You got PM.

[Bob I]

and Pisces had a couple. I didn't take one home as they both appeared to have "equilibrium problems". Looked fine otherwise. These fish do display some rather "odd" antics(Sp?) though in defense of their territory.

Must have been there just before you, as they had three when I got mine. He acted normally when I got him home, he ate right away, and did not hide. Today of course he is in hiding or dead. :x

[EmilyB]

Just something to consider Bob, since you are not skimming, oxygenation can be a real issue and might be something to consider if you continue to experience fish losses.

[Canadian Man]

Just something to consider Bob, since you are not skimming, oxygenation can be a real issue and might be something to consider if you continue to experience fish losses.

Good point Deb! I never thought of that

[Bob I]

Just something to consider Bob, since you are not skimming, oxygenation can be a real issue and might be something to consider if you continue to experience fish losses.

Just something to get a good flame thread going :wink: Gas exchange happens at the surface of an aquarium. I have forgotten what that layer is called. No matter how many bubbles you pump into a tank, you will not increase oxygen levels. That as I said is done with surface agitation. In addition I do not believe adding one small fish into a no-fish 20 gallon well aerated tank is likely to cause oxygen starvation. But hey, thanks for the thought anyway. 8)

Oh and BTW he is not dead, just hiding. I saw his head peeping out from a rock, and he is still breathing. :D :D

[EmilyB]

Just something to get a good flame thread going :wink:

Why would you see it as that Bob ? :? Are you totally closed to any information that may be beneficial for your livestock? :? That seems to be an odd position to take. :cry:

Do you think I just make this stuff up ? :?

[Aquattro]

Bob is right in as much as surface agitation is responsible for gas exchange. What Bob is wrong about is that all those bubbles that "don't matter", have surfaces, and that is where a large percentage of exchange takes place.
Deb et al., I am not sure why you continue to try and educate Bob. He has made it plain and clear for the last year that he is going to do things his way. I see no point trying to force a point like gas exchange. You do your thing, and Bob can exchange his gas anyway he sees fit. Please help the people that ask for help, for the are the ones that appreciate the effort. You all give really good advice, so give it to people that want it...

[Tau2301]

I'm all for passing gas at anytime. :lol:

[TANGOMAN]

Meanwhile, back in the oasis... 8)

[StirCrazy]

Gas exchange happens at the surface of an aquarium. I have forgotten what that layer is called.

True but it also happens in other places.


No matter how many bubbles you pump into a tank, you will not increase oxygen levels. That as I said is done with surface agitation.

totaly bogus.. like Brad said the more bubbles the more surface area. this is why the beckets were made.. to increas O2 levels in ponds to promote healthy ponds. what you are probably thinking of is thoes bubble walls .. compared to Vigerous surface agatation the only help a little.. compared to nighting.. they help a lot. with the small surface area of a becket you actualy have a very efficient method of adding O2 to a tank.. my tank has barly any surface agatation now and I have lots of O2.


In addition I do not believe adding one small fish into a no-fish 20 gallon well aerated tank is likely to cause oxygen starvation. But hey, thanks for the thought anyway. 8)

Providing it is well ararated no it shoulden't.. BUT in a new 20 gal tank with agressively growing algae and such the )2 level can be depleted at NIGHT time.. this is why you have to make sure your surrface agatation is high at night also (or run a skimmer).


Oh and BTW he is not dead, just hiding. I saw his head peeping out from a rock, and he is still breathing. :D :D

Good, that must make you happy.. mind you I hate it when fish hide :wink:

Steve

[Bob I]

Just something to get a good flame thread going :wink:

Why would you see it as that Bob ? :? Are you totally closed to any information that may be beneficial for your livestock? :? That seems to be an odd position to take. :cry:

Do you think I just make this stuff up ? :?

The point is that I have kept fish for about 40 years, and have read numerous books. During all that time it has been my understanding that bubbles pumped into water do not increase oxygen levels. It is always possible that all those authors were wrong, or there has been more recent information. :wink: :wink:

I did expect to get yelled at for posting what I feel was correct information. :D :D

However, very shortly after my last post the fish was doing circles on the bottom of the tank. He was not gasping, but merely quickly dying. It appears that I should take my own advice, and not purchase recently arrived fish. It is just so wretchedly hard to get a Royal Grama. Maybe next time I will take Doug with me, he was smart enough not to buy. :(

BTW, that tank has a Maxijet 400 blowing toward the surface, and a Hagen 301. Lots of surface agitation, and circulation. 8)

[Bob I]

[quote=rcipema]Ross bought some fish , which had arrived in the store very recently, and many died. Similar to the experience you had.
I appreciate you coming to Ross' defense Bob, but I lost 2 fish over 6 months, not 8 fish in 2 weeks.

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you had the Six Line, and the Grama for only a week before they died. :?:

In my defense, I have mentioned a number of times that I had a number of very expensive losses when I fist set up a SW tank. Those losses stopped when the tank was six months old, and I put in a bunch of live rock.

I suppose the problem is that a person cannot wait that long before adding some livestock. :(

[Bob I]

.


In addition I do not believe adding one small fish into a no-fish 20 gallon well aerated tank is likely to cause oxygen starvation. But hey, thanks for the thought anyway. 8)

Providing it is well ararated no it shoulden't.. BUT in a new 20 gal tank with agressively growing algae and such the )2 level can be depleted at NIGHT time.. this is why you have to make sure your surrface agatation is high at night also (or run a skimmer).


I am sorry for not providing enough information. There is no way you could have known that YES the tank was new, but the contents were not. The contents were everything out of my 10 gallon nano, with a number of gallons of water out of the 50. In other words it could be called an existing tank with the addition of some substrate. :oops:

[Canadian Man]

The point is that I have kept fish for about 40 years, and have read numerous books. During all that time it has been my understanding that bubbles pumped into water do not increase oxygen levels. It is always possible that all those authors were wrong, or there has been more recent information.

Well when I run my skimmer my ph is day 8.2 / night 8.1
When I do not have my skimmer on my ph is day 8.1/ night 8.0

I believe this proves that they do add oxygen to the tank becasue the obvious result here. I do also have an overflow and lots of other opportunities for air to be added to the system. The skimmer just top's it off.

[rossb]

So I buy this 180 gallon tank add sand and let it run for two weeks in fresh water to make sure everything is ok (doing 2 complete water changes), then I add salt. I ask for advise on cycling a tank ...which fish...and the advise I get is use live rock/sand. So I buy 25 pounds of live sand, and 40 pounds of live rock and add it to the tank and wait for 6 more weeks (longer for the refugium) and do bi-weekly tests. The tank goes through the ammonium cycle, the nitrite cycle, and the nitrate cycle (mostly...it is now stable). Then I ask for opinions on first fish. (here and on other forums).

Well I get this mixed message. Firstly to calculate the tank loading It is 3“ of fish per SF surface area, but no more than 25% of that while cycling a tank. Also in damsel population add 1, 3, or 5 or more and not even amounts (this from more than 1 source) and also to add all of 1 species at a time. So I take my girl to the per store and we pick out 5 damsel fish and 2 chromis (all very small < 3/4")… from the same tank and a new shipment. Given that I have 180 gallons in the main tank, 33 in the refugium a 40 gallon sump and I am skimming, that seems like a very reasonable amount of fish to start doesn’t it?

[Bob I]

So I take my girl to the per store and we pick out 5 damsel fish and 2 chromis (all very small < 3/4")… from the same tank and a new shipment. Given that I have 180 gallons in the main tank, 33 in the refugium a 40 gallon sump and I am skimming, that seems like a very reasonable amount of fish to start doesn’t it?

I tend to agree. For all intents and purposes you should have been fine, but, and this is a big but, it has happened before. For that reason everyone advises caution. With 250 gallons of water, and a few little fish there should be no problem. It is a mystery to me. I did this on a smaller scale. I set up a 50 gallon tank some years ago, ran it through the cycle, and added fish one at a time. The fish all got horrible diseases and died (except for one, he died three years later) For that reason I advocate the six month idea, but in reality who can look at an empty tank for six months?

I would add however, that the Damsels should not have died, as people have used them to cycle tanks forever. There must have been something wrong with them when you bought them. :(

[Bob I]

Deb et al., I am not sure why you continue to try and educate Bob. He has made it plain and clear for the last year that he is going to do things his way. I see no point trying to force a point like gas exchange. You do your thing, and Bob can exchange his gas anyway he sees fit. Please help the people that ask for help, for the are the ones that appreciate the effort. You all give really good advice, so give it to people that want it...

There is something that bothers me here. I posted this in the CALGARY forum. Why is it that someone from Victoria answers it. Had I posted in the REEF forum, I would expect that, but when I post in the Calgary forum I do not expect flames from Victoria. When I made the post I expected flames. Deb's answer was perfectly reasonable, but I dismissed it out of hand because I was using information accumulated over the years. I think Deb appreciated that. I did say thanks for the idea, but when you have fish doing cartwheels less than 24 hours after purchase, you tend to get PO'd.

So really Brad I can say no more than please keep your remarks to the REEF forum. There we expect it, and if I expect a flame from you I will post there also.

Perhaps our moderatores could look at this.

[AJ_77]

I think the answers lie with more experienced aquarists than me, Ross...
I just remember the swings I would get in those first few months, and how fickle the tank seemed - I couldn't be cautious enough, and then there was a couple of "wait 6 months for livestock" threads.

So I went pretty slow, I guess, not wanting to upset the "not-quite-balance" of the system. Yes I did at one point lose two week-old fish together that were added together, after I was advised to only add one at a time with a minimum 2 weeks in between... But that was pretty much it for losses, and the only time I can point to where I may have tipped the balance negatively by additions.

The thing is, at 6 or 12 months your tank will be unrecognizable to you, you can see it ripening - it's quite amazing. At a year or more you could maybe get away with intrducing a shoal or so - but I still get real nervous about a new system. Can't help it, after watching mine go through the phases, and then have a green water bloom to top it all off. (Watch your phosphate sources carefully, BTW. :wink: )

Don't know if this helps - hope so though. :D

[Canadian Man]

I don't see any problem with anyone posting replies in any forum.
The specific post's in the Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver etc. are just for info that more portrays to that specific area. I am not a Moderator so I suppose my opinion wont matter to some but I dont mind if everyone replies to my post's.

The more involvement the better and the more discussion on a public discussion board the better!

[Bob I]

Hi Bob, yes, follically challenged was what I was gettin' at... :wink:
Red Pipe Organ is certainly of interest ! Wanna' make some money ? Can ya' total up what ya' want for all your "goods" and let me know.

The green mushrooms are giving problems. I scraped some off their rock, but they slimed and died. I need a better method.

I would not charge for the Organ Pipe, because I got it for free.

I would have to charge $15.00 for the White Colt, as it was part of a colony I paid 50 bucks for.

The little GSP's you can have for 5 bucks. They will spread.

[TANGOMAN]

Aaah, back on track... :wink: . Bob, put me down for the GSP's and the White Colt. I'll bring $20.oo for those and a big thank-you for the pipe. Sorry, no hugs from this guy... :roll: Too bad there's no Hairy Mushrooms.
"Who can look at an empty tank for six months...?" I waited nine months in total after two parasitic infestations that whiped me out. It really sucked but I'm now reaping the rewards for my patience. I've said before, good things happen slowly, bad things happen fast...
I too have been lookin' for a Royal Gramma for a very long time. It's tough to pass something up when it comes around but I will no longer accept anything but "premium quality" specimens...one of these days... maybe weeks or months...

Kim writes, "I'm all for passing gas anytime..." Me too, card stores are the best :shock:

[Aquattro]

Bob, I will respond to any post in any forum viewable by me on this board. If you feel the Calgary forum should be private and viewable only by Calgary users, perhaps Titus can help you with that. And I challenge you to find a moderator that will tell me to stay out of "your" forum.

[Bob I]

Bob, I will respond to any post in any forum viewable by me on this board. If you feel the Calgary forum should be private and viewable only by Calgary users, perhaps Titus can help you with that. And I challenge you to find a moderator that will tell me to stay out of "your" forum.

I hope you don't mind if I take some advice given a long time ago "Never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent"

[christyf5]

Well at least the Calgary forum has better entertainment value (for now anyway) :P :wink: :roll:

[StirCrazy]

The point is that I have kept fish for about 40 years, and have read numerous books. During all that time it has been my understanding that bubbles pumped into water do not increase oxygen levels. It is always possible that all those authors were wrong, or there has been more recent information.

Bob, sense you seem to have about 13 years on me.. I guess you are right and I should follow what you say with no question.. and becasue you have a few mnore years experience than me.. you have to know everything...

in reality if you realy reed thoes books instead of just looking for spelling mistakes you will see as the publishing dates get closer and closer to today a strange thing happens.. info changes and new things are descovered.. ti is called PROGRESS and you can't stop it by hiding behind "I have been keeping fish for 40 year" statments.. from what I have seen and heard from you ya you have been keeping fish for 40 years... and you still havent learnd a thang sence 1963..

hell I used to think undergrevel filters were the best thing.. (and the were at the time) now they are outdated and it has been proven they cause problems later.. I used to have fish only tanks with way to make tangs in it or angels.. now I know that they need more space.. why.. because I listent ot what others have to say and explore the possability that something I learned 20 years ago might be wrong instead of hiding and refusing to ackwnolage that something I read might be wrong..

now I am sure you are going to take this as a flame as it is not what you want me to say.. so be it.. I am getting tired of trying to be political with pigheadedness and such.


I am sorry for not providing enough information. There is no way you could have known that YES the tank was new, but the contents were not. The contents were everything out of my 10 gallon nano, with a number of gallons of water out of the 50. In other words it could be called an existing tank with the addition of some substrate.


Hmm so then in your words my tank is now 3 years and 8 months old...

Steve

Oh PS.. the spellign mistakes in this one were intentional.. 8)

[Bob I]

Well at least the Calgary forum has better entertainment value (for now anyway) :P :wink: :roll:

We do our best to keep you entertained. We pride ourselves in having a sense of humour. :D

[Bob I]

.


No matter how many bubbles you pump into a tank, you will not increase oxygen levels. That as I said is done with surface agitation.

totaly bogus.. like Brad said the more bubbles the more surface area. this is why the beckets were made.. to increas O2 levels in ponds to promote healthy ponds.

This has the potential of becoming a good discussion if the flames can be kept out of it. :wink:

I am going to stand behind my original statement because it has the accumulated weight of scientific evidence behind it.

When you speak of more surface area you seem to be looking at the reverse of what is proven to be true. In a bubble rising to the surface you have a gas to water area. That is opposite to the surface where you have a water to gas layer. Thus no meaningful gas exchange can occur.

I will give you one thing though. The bubbles bursting on the surface will increase agitation thus more oxygen will be taken up in that area.

Anyway without appearing to be a flame, that is the way I understand it to be from extensive readings. OKAY????

[StirCrazy]

Ok with out flames intended Bob, elplain to me the difference between a gas to water layer, and a water to gas layer?

at both points you have difusion going on between the air and water.. the advantage with the bubbles is that it is moving thus exposing its surface to new unsaturated water at all times.. with the water surface at the tank with out agatation it becomes saturated and stops.. with agatation you are breaking up the saturated level and exposing water with lower O2 levels to the air.. same thing that is happening in bubbles by virtue of them raising..

if you want another thing to think about look at how a skimmer works.. it makes a lot of bubbles throught which with the aid of a long contact time with the water, organics and other stuff are pulled into the layer around the bubbles. also at the same time O2 is being adsorbed into the water. because the level of air to water is very high in a skimmer (some aproching 50% or higher) it is like taking a blender and agatating the surface of your tank.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record but some of the stuff WE used to think was pretty silly.. why did we beleive it.. because some one sait it was true and it worked for them.. (mind you most of them made rediculous clames because they were getting paid for endorsing products.. which we never knew back then either.. )

Steve

[Bob I]

I am afraid I can't add any more to the discussion. :shock: I am stuck on what I believe is true, and nothing said changes my mind, so I better leave it alone. :wink:

[kari]

Doug
[Too bad there's no Hairy Mushrooms]
If you want some, I can bag up some various stray types from the mushroom factory if you don't mind attaching them. I think there is green/brown hairy, olive green, blue/green and maybe some blue tonga. The red ones are too difficult to get a hold of. They all seem to magically wander to a SPS sooner or later except for the blue. One on the birds nest, one on the purple tip acro, one on the yellow scroll etc.. Any good ideas of convincing them to go somewhere else :?:

kari

[Samw]

I think a good O2 test kit will resolve whether a tank is well oxygenated. I do believe strongly that my protein skimmer is the only reason my tank is at about 100% saturation (Other devices would work too but I don't use any other aerating devices).

Here's a couple of O2 saturation tables for salt water. My test kit shows a level of about 7 (+/-) at 25C.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/BMLSS/Oxygen-1.htm

http://www.emersonprocess.com/raihome/documents/RAI_Liq_AppData_DO_W+W_4950-16_Dissolved_Oxygen_Measurement_in_Oceans_Lakes_Ri vers_200208.pdf

I do know that before I added the protein skimmer (when I started the hobby 1 year ago), I was losing fish like crazy from disease or stress over a week or 2 even though I was adding fish slowly (and replacements of the same fish would die too. Others like clownfish had no problems at all). At that time, the tank was agitated with only a powerhead at the surface and an internal fluval filter. There was a lot of water movement at the surface. I tested for Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, Phosphates, etc and everything was near perfect. I couldn't figure it out.

Then, I installed a protein skimmer and then I noticed my replacement fish all started to survive. I thought ok, maybe its because my tank is more stable now or maybe it was just bad luck or maybe it was the ick that killed them before. Then, an event occurred one day that convinced me that my fish were dying from reasons indirectly or directly from lack of oxygen. One night I turned off the skimmer (so I can sleep better since the skimmer was noisy) and the next morning, my O2 loving fish was laying on its side gasping for air. It looked like it would die within minutes. I plugged the skimmer back on and within the hour, my fish was rejuvenated and is still alive with me today after 9 months. This does tell me that my tank is overstocked, and that some fish require higher levels of O2. But it also tells me that the skimmer does a better job of aerating my tank than the powerheads (w/o venturi) at my water surface. Nowadays, my fish still gets ick once in a while (after a stressful water change) but this time they survive and it goes away on its own.

This is my story and it might not be related to any of you who has lost fish but I do suggest getting an O2 test kit and just eliminate that as a cause. I wish that I did test the O2 level of my tank when my fish were dying so I could document what O2 levels are bad. It probably might have been useful to know which fish started dying at levels of 5 or 6.

[rossb]

the advantage with the bubbles is that it is moving thus exposing its surface to new unsaturated water at all times

One thing that I can't figure out is if there was a gas exchange between bubbles and water wouldn't the bubbles disappear given enough time? What about the surface tension of the bubble? Would that not act to prevent this? (theseare non-flaming questions :) ).

[StirCrazy]

Ross, if you can keep the bubbles under the water long enuf they will dissapear.. unless the water is already saturated.. then you will be at a equilibrum.

Steve

[TANGOMAN]

Ross, just curious. Do you have a skimmer ? My thought is it isn't the cause of the losses you've incurred anyway. However, a suggestion that perhaps it is an O2 defeciency is a valid one and deserves consideration. We all know no systems ever function or react in the same way. Hell, I've only got two tanks on a "full time" basis and both tanks undergo changes and catastrophies separately. Both tanks are set up virtually identical, obviously with the same water source etc. but there are too many variables to determine what works and what doesn't. Sure there is basic chemistry, biology, physics and all that mind boggling "mumbo-jumbo" that's always changing. It's those damn variables I mentioned previously that make input/recomendations from people, all over, so valuable a tool in solving a problem. I'm not directing this "lecture" to you Ross, nor anyone for that matter...this just seems to be "snowballing" and things are goona' be said that might be better left as thoughts...

I was thinking last night Ross of your situation and something came to mind...it's a long shot like the O2 concern... you made some DIY live rock ? Can something be "leaching" still from that ? I've read very little on the whole concept. It is unfamiliar to me but...? How are the inverts. doing ?

Finally, life is good... :wink:

Oooops. I see ya' mentioned you are skimming.

[rossb]

Doug yes I do have a skimmer. It is an emperor aquatics skimmer rated for 150 gallons and removes lots of brown goey stuff( it is a bit small but I do have a deep sand bed). The fake rock are from a rather tried and true recipe. They are made from aragonite, cushed oyster shells and concrete (1 part concrete, 1 part aragonite and 3-4 parts oyster shells).

The trick is to cure them. I cured them for 5 weeks in fresh water (with frequent water changes and ph reducer) until the Ph remained constant. I then put them in the tank and they had another 5 weeks before anything was added.

Mostly it was just the first shipment of fish. I have 1 left and it is doing very well. It has stopped breathing so fat and is now firmly in charge of 1 side of the tank. My wrasse and clown fish are now doing very well and their overall condition has improved (especially the clowns).

The inverts are having problems. Each of them have started a molt and seem to have problems shedding their skin. In this state they seem to be prone to attack and ... well ... I am curently trying to figure out what could cause that. It has happend to all of them.

Thanks for the tips...and for sure no lecture came out of your post :)

[Delphinus]

Ross, I apologize if you mentioned this info already, but, what do you keep your salinity/SG at, and just for curiousity what brand of salt do you use? How often are the water changes at the moment and how big are they? Oh and what are you using to measure your SG?

Not promising the answers to these questions can give me an "aha" type moment, but it's worth a try.. :)

I'm rather stuck on what you said about the crustaceans having trouble molting. This seems unusual to me. One time, I can pass off as an anomaly but not when all are having problems. Maybe there is too much iodine in the water, or not enough (iodine is apparently a crucial element needed for triggering molting). It sounds like they might be molting prematurely, or perhaps molting too late somehow.

[Bob I]

Strictly as a matter of interest. The shrimp I got in the same shipment is acting totally normally. 8)

[TANGOMAN]

My Shrimp are doing fine as well. I don't know about the stupid snails I got though. They continue to migrate to the front glass...don't they know I clean that glass regularly ? I put them on a rock where I had hoped they would do their thing and they don't move. I mean they'll stay in one place for ten days if I leave them. I thought I was dumb... :?
Bob, any interest in that C.C. Starfish ? Another thing Bob. The Lemon Peel Angel I purchased shortly after you got yours is in with "the general population" but continues to be a very picky eater. It will not accept the wide variety of frozen foods I offer. I grazes regularly and will eat some pellets. What have you been feeding yours ?

[Bob I]

Bob, any interest in that C.C. Starfish ? Another thing Bob. The Lemon Peel Angel I purchased shortly after you got yours is in with "the general population" but continues to be a very picky eater. It will not accept the wide variety of frozen foods I offer. I grazes regularly and will eat some pellets. What have you been feeding yours ?

The trouble with the CC is that the tank is still partially reef. There are a few soft corals, and the Anemone. If there is no expected problem with those, we could pitch him in there. :roll:

As to the Lemonpeel, he eats anything I offer with flake food being a real favorite. In frozen food, I offer Mysis, Formula 1, and 2. In addition he chomps on Caulerpa. I don't know if he has any success with that though. :D

[Bob I]

I'm rather stuck on what you said about the crustaceans having trouble molting. This seems unusual to me. One time, I can pass off as an anomaly but not when all are having problems. Maybe there is too much iodine in the water, or not enough (iodine is apparently a crucial element needed for triggering molting). It sounds like they might be molting prematurely, or perhaps molting too late somehow.

Not to be argumentative, my understanding of molting is that it is a function of growth. The animal gets too big for its outer covering, it molts, period. Now I am not aware of unusual molting, so I am out of the picture here. As to iodide. I add reef iodide sporadically, and have never had unusual molting. That is all I can offer.