Hypothetical reef tank [Archive] - Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board

michika

08-20-2007, 06:08 PM

I'm debating tearing down my 24g nano for a longer, and shorter tank. I want to get some feedback in regards to flow, and what options I may have with a smaller system.

The system I am thinking of creating would be approximately 3ft in length, 18" in depth, and 15" tall, but I would restrict the water height to 1ft. This would put the display at about 42g before the overflows are in.

I would like dual overflows, and possibly 4 returns. My goal is to get as much flow as possible through the system.

What would you recommend I do, or use to create a variety of random currents throughout the tank. The tank, as mine is now, would be SPS and clam dominated.

Delphinus

08-20-2007, 07:45 PM

For a suggestion this might be a bit "out there", but what about an up/down style gyre tank? You'd need a taller tank of course but if you hid the bottom part you could have those dimensions and have a pretty neat flow effect..

michika

08-20-2007, 08:16 PM

tell me more...this sounds quite interesting!

Delphinus

08-20-2007, 08:58 PM

Mainly, the idea is to capitalize on the idea of a whirlpool in a tank. If you put a divider in the tank then you get nearly-laminar type flow (or whatever the right term is) on each side of the divider. So, say if you had a platform style divider, you could build the reef on this part, but hide your powerheads in the bottom part, use a wavemaker and then you have something I bet the corals would totally dig.

try this link for some reading (hopefully it jumps forward to the right section, if not, just search on "gyre"): http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature#h5

michika

08-20-2007, 10:25 PM

Cool! Thanks. I now have a whole bunch of ideas that I didn't previously have.

I wonder how I could accomplish some of these, while maintaining a low system volume.

Have you ever built one yourself?

Delphinus

08-20-2007, 10:28 PM

I haven't but I want to, if for no other reason than to put my gorgs in it because how-cool-would-that-be to see them wave back and forth like they're supposed to? :)

kwirky tried making one, here's the thread about it: http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31686

danny zubot

08-20-2007, 10:56 PM

You know, this has got me thinking again about the whole "wave pool" concept. Instead of having a massive pump on a timer behind the wall in a tank, imagine what a big piston actuated panel could do for flow in one?

mr_alberta

08-20-2007, 11:10 PM

A tank like that with a Wave2k unit on one of the short sides would be pretty neato..of course this is assuming that the Wave2k units work well....

michika

08-20-2007, 11:30 PM

So far I've looked at the Calfo manifoldsl, and while I like the idea I don't know how I'd execute it. Or at least I don't know how to do it cleanly, like your cube tank Harvey.

Gyre tanks, while looking awesome would eat up too much usable space, so I guess I'll be skipping that idea. I'm thinking I'll be using it on a future frag tank though.

I thought of waveboxes, hence why I initially mentioned a water height of 1ft, but a total glass height of 15". I don't know much about them, so I'm kind of in the dark. I did however note the release of the Wave2K, and took a quick look at the thread on RC.

My other thoughts were another closed loop system with educators, or a tank full of powerheads. Neither of which really appeal because of the aesthetics.

michika

08-20-2007, 11:37 PM

kwirky tried making one[/URL]

I remember that. I thought it was very cool looking, but had a hard time getting my head around the practical applications in a show tank. That is where I originally got my idea to do a gyre tank on my future frag system, but the idea never really went anywhere. Now with the article you posted I have a better understanding of how the tanks work.

Der_Iron_Chef

08-21-2007, 05:12 AM

michika

08-21-2007, 01:58 PM

Catherine, I think the practical applications in a show tank would just require a little more planning. What if you made/ordered/had a tall tank, and built a stand so that only the top 2/3 of it showed (the gyre portion would be under the display area, hidden by the stand). Hmmm, not sure if this is making sense to anyone other than me!

It makes tons of sense to me. Unfortunately I can't really do a tall tank at this moment with this potential upgrade. However, I now really want to try to build a gyre frag tank!

mr_alberta

08-21-2007, 03:11 PM

A calfo manifold on your tank would be pretty cool assuming you had a way of hiding all the plumbing (i.e. under a canopy). Using one of your PS4 pumps and having a 4 port manifold would be pretty sweet. I see you have a SCWD too which you can use if you wanted.

Gyre tanks...well, while the concept is interesting, they look kind of....gross to me :neutral: Not my cup of tea.

michika

08-21-2007, 03:39 PM

I like the idea of the calfo manifold, but how would I go about designing it? Do you know where I can get more information on them? Any examples of built tanks?

Der_Iron_Chef

08-21-2007, 03:45 PM

Have you read this (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/short.htm), Catherine?

michika

08-21-2007, 03:48 PM

Have you read this (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/short.htm), Catherine?

That was the article that got me started at looking at the Calfo manifolds! :lol: Do you know where I can find more examples, or tank journals where people have used this? I guess I'm looking for ideas.

Der_Iron_Chef

08-21-2007, 03:58 PM

There's a little discussion and a few photos in this (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=518936&highlight=manifold) thread.

There are some photos in this guy's photo gallery (http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showgallery.php?thumb=1&stype=2&si=Tigg&cat=500&sort=1&ppuser=49700), too.

Then....this (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=644848). That's all I could find on short notice :)

michika

08-21-2007, 04:10 PM

Lol!! I was just reading the first thread you posted. Thanks for the other link and photos!

Does anyone know what keeps the manifold from dipping under its own weight in the front of the system? How do people support the manifold in the tank?

Delphinus

08-21-2007, 04:11 PM

Gyre tanks...well, while the concept is interesting, they look kind of....gross to me :neutral: Not my cup of tea.

Probably better suited to a backroom frag growout, true. I *did* say my suggestion was a bit "out there." :lol: Having said though I think the less aesthetic aspects are merely a design challenge that should set the creativity neurons firing. I'm hoping to do a show level gyre tank for gorgonians at some point, but, ah well, since I'm basically a one-armed man for the foreseeable future it ain't happenin' anytime soon. :)

Catherine, the Calfo manifold is probably the way to go. Unfortunately, they're kind of ugly too, unless you have a canopy to hide the piping. The idea is that you have a pipe with various output points that you can hang locline (or whatever) from and thus tweak your flow patterns without bulky pumps in the viewable areas of the tank. I imagine a google search should yield some good examples of setups but I can't think of any offhand.

michika

08-21-2007, 04:41 PM

Since my tank isn't really supposed to be in my apartment it will have both a canopy and stand, as well as a set of doors to cover the tank itself. In short everything can be hidden away to look like a cabinet or something.

I was thinking I woud make the water level even with the 1ft mark, and then maybe keep the glass taller, 15" or so. The canopy level could then come down, cover the extra 3" of space and then the manifold as well.

I still worry about how to keep the whole structure up and how to prevent it from bowing or dipping in the front. I'm also now trying to figure out how to make it asethetically pleasing while ensuring I have a crazy amount of flow.

mr_alberta

08-21-2007, 05:13 PM

Rigid PVC should be more than enough to prevent dipping...here's my old calfo system:

http://members.shaw.ca/harvwong/10.08.05/DSCF0004.JPG

Pic of what you see in the tank:
http://members.shaw.ca/harvwong/04.08.06/IMG_0176.jpg

michika

08-21-2007, 05:17 PM

I remember that system! What was the longest length you had to cover? Any problems with disturbing the sandbed (or was this tank BB?)?

mr_alberta

08-21-2007, 05:32 PM

My tank was BB so no worries about the sandbed. The longest length was 45" with a 14" segment at the end (it was L-shaped). It wasn't a true calfo manifold as it wasn't all one continuous "loop". I split the manifold in half with a SCWD so that only half of the "loop" would fire at a time. Worked quite well, but too bad the SCWD adds so much headloss to a pump. In retrospect, an Ocean Motion 2 way would have been better as you can use much larger pumps with it.

christyf5

08-21-2007, 05:51 PM

Uh, pardon my ignorance, but do you have to provide an "excess" of flow so that water makes it through to the final outlet at the end of the line (so that you don't have the most pressure coming out the first outlet, then less at the second, even less at the third etc?).

michika

08-21-2007, 05:54 PM

I'm about 90% sure that this is the way I'm going to go. I'm going to try and do an external overflow box so I can maximize the space in the tank. I don't want to go BB, so I'm sure that will be a problem I will have to deal with later.

I want a very random flow, so I guess I'll look into an Ocean Motion. I don't think I want to use a SCWD again, because, like you meantioned, of the headloss.

I guess that makes my next step figuring out what pumps to use, and how I may want to drill my new tank. Should I be looking at doing a few returns through the back of the glass?

michika

08-21-2007, 05:55 PM

Der_Iron_Chef

08-21-2007, 06:03 PM

Couldn't you add ball valves to all the returns, and dial the ones closest to the return more closed, with the ones at the end fully open? Tweak until you get even flow? I've also wondered about this, and it's the only solution I can work my mind around.

christyf5

08-21-2007, 06:04 PM

Couldn't you add ball valves (or whatever they're called) to all the returns, and dial the ones closest to the return more closed, with the ones at the end fully open? Tweak until you get even flow? I've also wondered about this, and it's the only solution I can work my mind around.

Thats what I was thinking as well. However of every photo I've seen, nobody has used ball valves or anything, they all look like Harveys setup.

danny zubot

08-21-2007, 06:21 PM

No ball ball valves required if you use a pressure rated pump.

Der_Iron_Chef

08-21-2007, 06:23 PM

No ball ball valves required if you use a pressure rated pump.

Hey Danny, can you explain this? I'm a pressure rated pump dummy :)

mr_alberta

08-21-2007, 09:11 PM

There's got to be a Mech. Engineer somewhere here that can explain why you don't need ball valves on a closed system like a Calfo Manifold...

Uh, pardon my ignorance, but do you have to provide an "excess" of flow so that water makes it through to the final outlet at the end of the line (so that you don't have the most pressure coming out the first outlet, then less at the second, even less at the third etc?).

christyf5

08-21-2007, 09:26 PM

OK here is my theory, you shoot water through the pipes so fast that only some gets split off to any given tee. The rest of it is propelled super fast on to the next tee because it doesn't have time to make turns at the tee. However at the end tee either there is just the right amount of water that comes out or you could launch mysis from it at the speed of light!

:mrgreen:

danny zubot

08-21-2007, 10:57 PM

I'm not an engineer but here's what I figured. If you have a 1" return but only use 3/4" output holes, it will create back pressure on the main line. This, in theory, should pressure up the main line enough to have even flow out of all holes. Kind of like those long irragtion hoses with all of the tiny holes in them. A pressure rated pump will keep the line pressured better than a none-pressure rated pump.

Captainhemo

08-21-2007, 10:58 PM

Pasca'ls Law ? I thinkthe water will basically be pushed throughoout the system at the same preasuure (assumong the outlets are basically at the same hieight).

danny zubot

08-22-2007, 05:01 PM

Catherine, don't get me wrong about the pump thing. Any pump will do the trick but pressure rated pumps won't have the head loss.

michika

08-22-2007, 07:48 PM

I'm thinking I'll be going with the Reeflo Snapper pump. I chose it mostly for wattage (I'm on a power budget), and it has the highest head at 0ft. I can't remember if its pressure rated or not.

Thoughts on my pump choice?

danny zubot

08-22-2007, 09:01 PM

See, that's the thing that is dependant on many other variables. You need to decide how many output nozzles you will have first, as well as the diameter of each nozzle. If you used a Mak4 that puts out roughly 1200 GPH though a 1" return line, and you 6 nozzles should get 200 GPH per nozzle. If you reduce your nozzle diamter to 3/4" then you effectively have more force of water pressure coming out of each nozzle, but still maintain about 200 GPH out of each. This would change your flow style though, much like the difference between a maxi-jet and a koralia.

As with so many things in this hobby, I would buy a bigger pump than you might need. It saves you from having to upgrade later.

michika

08-23-2007, 12:43 AM

You need to decide how many output nozzles you will have first, as well as the diameter of each nozzle...

...As with so many things in this hobby, I would buy a bigger pump than you might need. It saves you from having to upgrade later.

I should have elaborated, my bad! :redface:

Okay so I've figured that I will probably be doing 2 x 2" drains in a single overflow box. The overflow box will be mounted exterior to the tank itself, and will probably only be about 7"-8" if I can get away with it. I'm still researching this.

For returns on the calfo manifold I was thinking of doing 9 returns. I am still debating doing two additional returns in the center of the tank, directly through the back glass; one below the shallow overflow box, and possibly one within it. I am pretty sure I'll be doing the manifold with 1" pipe and loc-line.

I did choose the snapper because of its high flow rate, higher then I suspect I need. I figured I would need minimum 1000gph at 0 head. Since the snapper can be throttled back, as well as its low power draw, I think this is the pump for me.

Does that clarify where I'm trying to go with this? Anymore thoughts on my pump selection?

Der_Iron_Chef

08-23-2007, 05:26 AM

Catherin, look here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=473152&perpage=25&pagenumber=18) and tell me what you think (scroll down to pictures and read his explanation). Wonder if that's a good option?

michika

08-23-2007, 06:10 PM

I'm assuming your taking about the guy's DIY coast to coast overflow? Well it looks pretty functional for starters. It seems to provide great surface agitation, and I would assume good internal flow as well.

Since it seems that it would work on a smaller system, and provide good flow, it probably would work. I would just have then focus on making it a little prettier.

Thanks!