I'm loosing the war with GHA, help?!

[michika]

Since May I've been fighting GHA, and it is still getting worse.

Here is what I have done so far, and now I'm just going crazy. I recently picked up an urchin, and while I thought he would clean the tank up nice, it seems he is only good at keeping it at bay, when he wants to eat it.

Here is the list:
1) Changed out all bulbs, everything is new now within 2 months.
2) Macro algae, I tried to avoid pruning it until it got to the point where it was almost too big for my 'fuge hoping that the bigger surface area would absorb more of whatever is triggering the GHA. It didn't seem to make a difference.
3) Switched back to RO/DI water
4) Manually remove the algae (I do this every 2-3 days and get 1-2 cups)
5) Running the tank with a reduced photo period, I now run for only 5 hours a day with MH for a total of 6 hours of light.
6) A Blackout period, I kept the tank completely dark for 3 days, there was no reduction in algae, and it got worse after I was done.
7) Run a phosphate remover in a high flow area, just below the return. I'm still doing this, now with a reactor.
8) Larger water changes, I do 10g over the course of a week.
9) Ensure all my water parameters are in order (see below)
10) Added additional members to my clean up crew, and added a longspine urchin
11) Removed my rocks, scrubed them all down and plucked them clean. Only three rocks weren't scrubed, but it was because they have clams on them. They were however picked clean.

I've tried asking for help, and got quite a few ideas, most of which I tried. This was the original request for help thread.
How else to do battle with hair algae (http://canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=33928&highlight=green+hair+algae)

This is my tank thread, maybe there is something in it that is relevant.
My nano thread (http://canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=32184&page=2&highlight=30g+nano)

All my water parameters are now stable at the following levels:
Temp: 80
pH: 8.2
SG: 1.025
Calcium: 420-440ppm
Alkalinity: 9-10 dkh, its perpetually on the cusp it seems.
Nitrate, Nitrite, and Ammonia: 0ppm
Magnesium: 1280ppm.
Phosphate: 0 even though I know its still there.

The only fluctuations I see are in Calcium and Magnesium. Calcium can swing between 420-440 at the very most. Magnesium on the other hand does have a bit of a bigger swing, it fluctuates between 1200-1280ppm. My sand is new within the last 6 months, it was washed very well, the rock all came from my 230g and its age varies from 3 years to 6 months old. The rock has never been out of water for more them maybe 30 seconds.

What else can I be doing? I am litterally going crazy with this stuff. I feel like I'm out of options. Sometimes I feel like I am at the point where it is a hopeless battle. I have to clean around some of my clams every day to prevent them from being swallowed alive.

Make any suggestions, but please explain why your making the suggestion, and how it will hopefully solve the issue.

HELP ME PLEASE! :cry:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: try a sea hare!

Seriously. If you lived here, I would lend you mine. He's a pig and would make short work (well, within a week or two, I'm sure) of your hair algae.

[Snappy]

Sea hares work great but unfortunately whenever I've gotten them the longest any lived was 2 weeks before getting sucked into a powerhead. They are also stupid enough to eat cyano which often occurs with hair algae and it seems to poison them. They are a very good short term solution. Did you ever try the starving blue leg hermit crab idea I previously suggested? It worked for me.

[Chaloupa]

I tried the seahare route....it didn't work for me (twice!)...I battled for MONTHS and was plucking it daily for about an hour....I did do all that you did and finally won it over.........but I was ready to throw in the towel. I didn't and slowly but surely it was finally gone...but it took some time. I wish I had words of wisdom for you, but all I can offer is my sympathy!

[Skimmin]

You may want to try is dropping your temp and salinity. I had the same problem at one time. I dropped my salinity to 1.020 and temp to 76. Another thing I also found that helped was adding lots of inverts and snails. I haven't had a single spot of that crap since I did these things. (in a 78gal tank I have approx 80 crabs and snails) I understand how frustrating it can be though. Good Luck!

[marie]

I battled hair algae for a year and a half. All I can say is patience, keep doing what your doing and eventually it will go away.

At this point it is probably no longer a nutrient issue, It grows because its there. Have you ever seen a dandelion growing and flowering on what appears to be solid rock?

[tknude]

From what I understand pruning of your algea in your tank should be done in combination with a water change to suck up all the loose parts. Perhaps this in tank pruning is just making it spread worse. I have always been told to remove the rock and scrub and pluck it under running water, then give it a good rinse before putting it back in the tank. I had a battle for months as well but got a phosban reactor, cleaned my rock as above, did a water change when the rock was out, and got a sea uchin at around the same time. So far the algea is staying down. As well I went to bare bottom and do 15% water changes once a week.

[michika]

Greg,

Yeah I did try your suggestion, I got a whole bunch more hermits, starved them (they seemed really happy with it :D) then toseed them back in the display, they are more active, but not so much in the hair algae department.


Der_Iron_Chef
I searched out seahares, and could only ever find big ones. I was prepared to swallow my fear of them toppling my frags, etc. but instead found an urchin and went that route. The urchin does really well, as in it literally strips the algae off the rocks, but it can't seem to keep up.


Skimmin,

I am not able to make those types of adjustments, my tank is fully stocked with 9 clams of various species, a large selection of SPS, and LPS corals, I also have a large clean up crew. I would be afraid that a lower SG would kill my tank.

Do you have any literature about GHA, and lower salinity, or lower temps? In all my research I've never before come across this suggetion.


tknude,

I do prune at the same time I do water changes. I ensure that 95% of what I prune does not make it back in the tank at all. I'm pretty good at pruning it in clumps, with very few stray pieces getting into the system. I did tear down my whole system a few months ago to scrub all the algae, and it didn't seem to have any effect either. How bad was your hair algae problem? How many months have you been battling it?


Chaloupa, and Marie,

Thanks for the encouragement. How long on average did you battle green hair algae Chaloupa? Was it bad like mine? There are recent photos in my tank thread. This stuff is just really pushing my buttons. It has literally reduced my usable surfaces for frags by probably 30%. I just wish I could see some sort of end in sight!

[argileh]

You may want to try is dropping your temp and salinity. I had the same problem at one time. I dropped my salinity to 1.020 and temp to 76. Another thing I also found that helped was adding lots of inverts and snails. I haven't had a single spot of that crap since I did these things. (in a 78gal tank I have approx 80 crabs and snails) I understand how frustrating it can be though. Good Luck!

I second dropping temp and salinity. I remember reading it in some book/literature. I tried it once and it helped

[fishoholic]

Our white tailed pygmy angelfish eats our hair algae, now if only he'd eat aptasia! :lol:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Do you run lights in your refugium on a reverse cycle? In other words, does your PH remain constant?

I know that the higher the PH, the lower the levels of dissolved Co2, which would help (in theory) to reduce algae growth.

[Edmonton Eskimo]

the only other thing that I could think of is iron. Is there somehow excess iron entering your tank? The algaes feed on this as well. I've seen this algae and it's very weird. Not the same color or consistency as much of the hair algae I've encountered. Good luck catherine!

[michika]

Do you run lights in your refugium on a reverse cycle? In other words, does your PH remain constant?

I know that the higher the PH, the lower the levels of dissolved Co2, which would help (in theory) to reduce algae growth.

I don't run my lights on my refugium on a reverse cycle, because of how my tank is set up. My apartment is one big room, and the 'fuge light is quite bright, thus making it hard to sleep. I only see a slight pH drop though from say the middle of the day with MH & actinics, to just the moonlights at say midnight. Day is 8.2, and night is about 7.9.


argileh,

Unfortunately lowering my salinity is not a viable option. For starters it would probably kill my tank, clams, inverts, etc.

Would you be able to show me, or point me to the literature that you read on a lower salinity?

[Quagmire]

Don't know what your Alk is at,but you can try raising it to around 10-12.Algea doesn't like the high Alk.Also take a small piece of algea covered rock and clean it off.Then put it in a bowl with fresh made salt water.Let it sit a couple days and test for nitrates.It seems that everything you have done so far should have had at least some effect,so maybe your rock is whats causing the problem.

[Redrover]

:twised: I had it a few years back...good old foxface to the rescue, he was like a lawnmore,never had it since...he now is helping another reefer.

[andrewsk]

Sorry if I missed it, but where exactly is the algea growing?

Is it on the rocks, the sand?

Is it possible that where it grows, there is an excess of nutrients?

Could the live rock or sand be leaching nutrients?

Something has to be fueling it's growth.

Could you pull out the rock and put them in a quarantine tank? Where does the algae grow then?

[fishface]

i'm not sure if this would work but there's a thread on RC that pertains to getting rid of bryopsis with elevated Mg levels. for some reason it all just dies off within a very short period of time, might just work for GHA and give you a leg up. i haven't read the thread for a few months so i'm not 100% sure what new but it might be worth taking a look, it is a very long thread.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1113109&highlight=bryopsis
good luck and hope this might help...

[honkey sauce]

bristletooth tangs and lots of snails , done

[Chaloupa]

I battled hair algae for many MONTHS. It was the toughest thing...whew. When I see a strand now I just freak....I did all of the above as you did...some of the snails I used were amazing...I don't remember their name, but they were not turbos, J&L was out and they gave me these large snails instead (Rene at J&L's) and man do they clean up, PLUS they are too large for the hermits to kill easily, and when they fall over they can right themselves unlike turbos, mine in large part was a nutrient issue, plus poor lighting, a new tank and just about every other thing you can imagine....among many many others, I did beat it but it wasn't easy.... it does take MUCH patience, perseverence and hope!

I do agree that you most likely are on the winning side now...with switching to RO, new bulbs, plucking it out, CUC, etc etc, I think it will just take time, and drive you nuts but I bet you have the start of the end!

I can't say that I dropped the temp or salinity...I figured there was enough of a battle going on to add that to my mix...

[Der_Iron_Chef]

i'm not sure if this would work but there's a thread on RC that pertains to getting rid of bryopsis with elevated Mg levels. for some reason it all just dies off within a very short period of time, might just work for GHA and give you a leg up. i haven't read the thread for a few months so i'm not 100% sure what new but it might be worth taking a look, it is a very long thread.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1113109&highlight=bryopsis
good luck and hope this might help...

Hey Darryl....I remembered this thread, too, and searched for it when Catherine posted this again. They did discuss whether or not the elevated Mg levels would be effective against other algaes, but mentioned that it only seemed to affect the Bryopsis.

Damn, eh?

[michika]

Quagmire,

My alkalinity is 9-10 dKH consistently. What would a higher level do for me? You mentioned 10-12dKH, so I'm curious. I based my 9-10 levels on readings from Reefkeeping Magazine, and a collection of books, and papers I have read. Am I missing something as to why I should keep it higher?

Redrover,

If I could find a super tiny foxface, I would consider it, but its not really a long term solution in a 24g nano.

Hockeysauce,

My tank actually does hold two tiny tangs at the moment, a kole, and an orange shoulder. They eat the algae, but they can't get ahead of it at all.

Fishface, and Der_Iron_Chef,

I did go back and look at that thread on RC. I am 95% sure that I don't have bryopsis. I did my best to double check my algae with photos of byropsis on algaebase.org, and unfortunately they didn't match. I am however still considering raising my magnesium to see if it it has an effect. I just need more magnesium first.

Andrewsk,

The algae is growing exclusively on my rocks, and its getting into the frag plugs if they are also on the rocks. It has also developed on the shells of some of my larger clams.

The algae grows everywhere, even directly in the path of my powerhead. If there is an excess of nutrients I'm a) unsure how they are getting into the system, and b) seeing growth everywhere, so I can't rule even guess where nutrients may be coming in anymore. Would a photo help?

The sand is new as of May, and I was very careful about washing it well. The liverock is between 3 years, and 6 months old depending on the piece. I never had any problems with these pieces in my 230g or any preceding tanks if that was the case.

Due to the incrediably small nature of my apartment, 400sq ft total, I literally have no room to set the rock up elsewhere. As well I have tons of frags glued down, as well as clams. While I could temporarily dismantle the tank again to scrub the algae off a second time, I fear like the first it will come back worse, or I'll end up loosing frags because of their sheer number.


Can anyone think where I'm getting nutrients in my system? I don't really feed that much, and lately when I do its just a tiny pinch of cyclopses, new life spectrum pellets, and formula one (maybe two) pellets. All of my RO/DI cartriges and resin are good, still almost brand new. None of the equipment I use has ever been used for anything else other then tank related things. I run two three reactors, Calcium, Kalkwasser, and Phosban (with phos-lock).

[tknude]

FYI, I have been battling it for 6 months or so. I think mine may finally be under control (knock wood). As well I pulled my rock out and scrubbed over running water 3 or 4 times before it was finally under contnrol. - Ted.

[andrewsk]

Oh here is my guess to the problem.

Since it is growing exclusivly on your rocks, I think that they are the problem. Let me explain a bit.

If you have had those rocks for 3 years, they have had a chance to absorb nutrients over a long period. No matter how clean you water is, the nutrients are inside the rock.

Eventually they will all leach out and disappear if the water has less nutrients than the rocks. If the water has more nutrients it continues to build up.

I have a rock that has a huge crater in it where food used to get stuck. I always had algae growing there even if I cleaned out the food.

Try this. Pick an offending rock, remove the frags. Now either "cook" the rock like when you get new live rock or get another rock from a fellow reefer and put it in the tank with your frags on it. My guess is that the algae will not grow on that new rock.

If this is the case, you have a few choices. New Rock, Cook the existing rock, or follow some of the other suggestions here to get something to eat the algae, then keep your water spotless until the nutrients have all leached out of the rock.

I would bet $ that you will fix the problem if you try this.



Quagmire,

Can anyone think where I'm getting nutrients in my system? I don't really feed that much, and lately when I do its just a tiny pinch of cyclopses, new life spectrum pellets, and formula one (maybe two) pellets. All of my RO/DI cartriges and resin are good, still almost brand new. None of the equipment I use has ever been used for anything else other then tank related things. I run two three reactors, Calcium, Kalkwasser, and Phosban (with phos-lock).

[michika]

Just to clarify again, my rocks are not all 3 years old, only 1 or 2 pieces are, the rest are about 6 months old. The "old" rock is probably only 10% of my total display rock.

The algae is also growing on some of my clams, and its also growing on colonies themselves. Its not limited to the rock itself. It is also only found on the top of the rocks, not on their undersides, nor in any of the caves.

I already have quite a few algae eating creatures, and don't feel that I could add to it without compromising my bioload.

I have actually added new rock to the system, as in it was completely dried, and bone white. I cleaned it, then added it to the tank, it was also covered in algae rather quickly. Do you think that this new rock being covered in algae is a result of my older rocks?

I think first I'm going to try to raise my magnesium levels like in the Reef Central thread. Even though my algae is not briopsis, I still think its worth a try.

After that I would probably consider new rock, but because of my space constraints I can't cook it.

So your thought is that phosphates are getting into the system from my old rocks?

[andrewsk]

Just to clarify again, my rocks are not all 3 years old, only 1 or 2 pieces are, the rest are about 6 months old. The "old" rock is probably only 10% of my total display rock.

The algae is also growing on some of my clams, and its also growing on colonies themselves. Its not limited to the rock itself. It is also only found on the top of the rocks, not on their undersides, nor in any of the caves.

I already have quite a few algae eating creatures, and don't feel that I could add to it without compromising my bioload.

I have actually added new rock to the system, as in it was completely dried, and bone white. I cleaned it, then added it to the tank, it was also covered in algae rather quickly. Do you think that this new rock being covered in algae is a result of my older rocks?

I think first I'm going to try to raise my magnesium levels like in the Reef Central thread. Even though my algae is not briopsis, I still think its worth a try.

After that I would probably consider new rock, but because of my space constraints I can't cook it.

So your thought is that phosphates are getting into the system from my old rocks?

With your space constraints I am not really sure.

If it were me, I would slowly eliminate the potential culprits until the Algae went away.

Something is providing fuel for it to grow.

How deep is your sand bed?

[robzilla]

in my tank, i believe the nutrients were coming from the rock. the previous owner did like to feed heavy
thats why in my case it took some months for the phosphate reactors to work.
the nutrients are in your tank, and they are feeding the algae.

[michika]

The sandbed is maybe 1.5" at its deepest. For the most part its about 0.5".

The logical step is to treat the source of the problem, where the algae is getting its nutrients from. After that it would be to just deal with the algae itself, manual prunings, scrubbing the rock, etc. Although since I can't pinpoint the source I feel like I just endless go in circles.

[ponokareefer]

Why not get a few more urchins to eat/pull the algae off the rock? If you have one that is doing it, but just not keeping up, give a couple more a try. It will save you the grief of doing it all yourself, and personally, I love the look of urchins. Such a cool animal. I know it is doing things backwards, not finding the source of the problem, but it can be satisfying seeing them tear that algae to shreds. :twised: I know it was for me.:lol:

[michika]

I agree it is very cathartic to watch my urchin clean off my rocks!

I'm pretty maxed out on my bioload right now. I'll consider it though, like a seahare, but I would have to give up any extra urchin(s) I aquire.

[andrewsk]

The sandbed is maybe 1.5" at its deepest. For the most part its about 0.5".

The logical step is to treat the source of the problem, where the algae is getting its nutrients from. After that it would be to just deal with the algae itself, manual prunings, scrubbing the rock, etc. Although since I can't pinpoint the source I feel like I just endless go in circles.

1.5" of Gravel is a total nutrient sink. Under 4" willl not really act as a Biological filter at all.

Could you run Barebottom for a while?

[michika]

I respectfully disagree about your comment regarding my sandbed. All my reading has informed me otherwise. I'm actually quite happy with my sandbed, and am not really interested at looking at removing it at the moment. First I want to look into higher magnesium levels, and possibly switching out rock.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I was under the impression that, for a sandbed to truly be effective, it needed to be deeper than that. Maybe I'm wrong.

Would you remove the sandbed if you knew it would fix the hair algae problem?

[Johnny Reefer]

I am of the belief that a shallow sandbed (ie: 1"-2") is easier to maintain and keep clean, as opposed to a DSB. I'm the opposite re: nutrient sink. I think a DSB would be more prone to that. JMO.

Edit: In an attempt to be more constructive toward the thread topic....I too am battling hair algae right now in my reef tank. The system is 8 months on now, after a move, so still relatively new. I'm also inclined to believe that the time of year factors into it, what with the longer days and increased duration of ambient daylight entering the room. I had hair algae growing like mad 1 to 2 months ago, but now it is showing signs of a decreasing growth rate. I'm just biding time with it and removing most manually before doing anything drastic....hoping tank maturity and shorter days will help.
I see your system is still relatively new also, and I'm curious to know what kind of daylight enters your tank room. Is it bright? (Not necessarily direct sunlight. Just daylight, period).

[michika]

Would you remove the sandbed if you knew it would fix the hair algae problem?

Yes I would, but only if I knew for sure it was feeding/causing the algae.

[Quagmire]

Catherine sorry I just noticed your parameters in your first post,if I had of seen your Alk was 9-10 I wouldn't have brought it up.I used 10-12 as a target because the higher the better for battling algea,but I feel any higher than that and your getting too high.As far as I know there is nothing wrong with where your alk is at.As I was righting this,it occurred to me to ask about your ro/di.Could it be ready for a change?Sorry if that seems a condescending question,but at least we can scratch it off the list if it still putting out clean water.

[michika]

RO/DI is shiney and new, hasn't even been in use for more then two months! I recently borrowed a TDS meter from a friend at a lab on campus, and my TDS read 0 from the RO/DI system, and a crazy 30 straight from the tap.

I'm so glad I don't drink the tap water in this building...

[andrewsk]

Catherine,

If you have never been there, go to Wetwebmedia.com and do some research on Deep Sand Beds vs Shallow Sand beds.

Everything I have read says that sandbeds between 1/2" and 3" are just nutrient sinks and require constant cleaning.

Once you go past 3" you get the low oxygen Bacteria that remove the Nitrates.

From everything you have posted, I would bet you a fair amount of $ that your problem is your sand bed.

Regardless. Good Luck and I hope you can win the battle.



This is from Anthony Calfo:

The killing blow to a flawed application with course substrates in weakly circulated aquarium is the unfortunately popular employment of intermediate depths of sand at 1"-3" (25-75mm). In this mid range, the sand is often too deep to be wholly aerobic and yet not deep enough for efficient denitrifying faculties. As such, the two dominant (and desired!) biological populations are restricted if not excluded at large and the sand bed may become a dead zone... a nutrient sink. However, intermediate sand depths can be maintained successfully (often, in fact!), but require due diligence with regular sifting naturally or mechanically (by the aquarist or by creatures in the aquarium), strong water flow in the tank, realistic bio-loads, etc.

One more from Wet Web

<Well, one thing that I feel pretty strongly about is that you need to go 1/2 inch or less, or 3 inches or more. My thinking is that 1 inch is too shallow to foster denitrification, but too deep to be fully aerobic, which is a potential recipe for long term problems. If you're inclined to go this route, better to use a sprinkling of sand in the display, and a 3 inch plus bed in the sump...Modified Plan "D">

Now I will leave you alone :)

[andrewsk]

I agree that direct sunlight could cause the problem, but what is the algae feeding on to make it grow?

I am of the belief that a shallow sandbed (ie: 1"-2") is easier to maintain and keep clean, as opposed to a DSB. I'm the opposite re: nutrient sink. I think a DSB would be more prone to that. JMO.

Edit: In an attempt to be more constructive toward the thread topic....I too am battling hair algae right now in my reef tank. The system is 8 months on now, after a move, so still relatively new. I'm also inclined to believe that the time of year factors into it, what with the longer days and increased duration of ambient daylight entering the room. I had hair algae growing like mad 1 to 2 months ago, but now it is showing signs of a decreasing growth rate. I'm just biding time with it and removing most manually before doing anything drastic....hoping tank maturity and shorter days will help.
I see your system is still relatively new also, and I'm curious to know what kind of daylight enters your tank room. Is it bright? (Not necessarily direct sunlight. Just daylight, period).

[marie]

I agree that direct sunlight could cause the problem, but what is the algae feeding on to make it grow?
She has a fair number of fish in the tank and once a pest algae gets a hold it needs very little in the way of nutrients to thrive.
I have always had shallow sand beds that I never disturb and I have never had problems relating to them

[marie]

As an example of how an algae can take over in a low nutrient enviroment. this is my tank last year just after i transfered everything over. I had left it fishless for 8 weeks, no food added to the tank at all, new sand bed, 100% new ro/di water (didn't use my old tank water), all the rocks were rinsed very well in the old tank water before moving (so there was no detritus). And still, this brown macro algae that I didn't even know I had, took over my tank. This pic was actually taken after the fish had been in there for a few weeks grazing on the macro. It looked even worse before

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/mariesnell/2005_0302brad0010.jpg

[kadaytar]

1- You said %90 of your live rock is 6 months old.Considering that you bought it from LFS - it is slower but die off inside newly shipped LR may last 3 to 6 months. OK water parameters don't show that cycle is totaly over. Living organisms have organic phosphate. Sand bed and anaerobic places inside LR are good harbours for phosphates but at he end it is thrown out. Thats why it is not advised to add SPS before 6 months.

2- These are the fishes that i saw in your pictures;
4 chromis, 1 sixline wrasse, 1 damsel, 1 mandarine,1 orange shoulder tang,
1 Kole Tang-probably- , 1 ocellaris clown. Did you keep them all at the same time in a 30 gallon? Don't get me wrong i am not trying to be a tang police this is not a proper tank size for tang issue. But those guys are swimmers. Even if they are small they consume alot of oxygen , add alot of CO2 into the water, eat alot and poop alot.

3- Protein Skimmers like Deltec, ER, Schuran etc. can eliminate the particulate matter as well as organic matter.Coralife skimmers may be good for their price but they can only eliminate the organic matter. How do you get rid of the particules in the water that create nitrates and phosphates?

4- Let me bash your sand as well :) Your sand does not look like aragonite. It is gray and coarser than sea floor grade. I don't know what type of sand it is but some types of sand leach slicates in to water and cause excessive algae growth. Also coarser sand is a detritus trap. Thats why crashed coral is called as detritus trap.

5- Whatever i can see from the picture your rocks are piled in the centre. You have two spray bars on the sides and a Hydor coralia close to the surface. I believe you have a good water flow around the rock work and corals. How do you get rid of the crap from the rocks accumulating at the bottom. i kept a bare bottom 65 gal tank with 700 gal/hr return pump and a 2500 gal/hr closed loop pump. It was hell of a lot of flow for a 65 gal. Despite that the strong flow i had to syphon out lots of crap every week. It is hard to figure it out with a sand bed but too much crap comes out of LR, for me i is worse than fish excrete or excess food.Hobyists having BB tanks must have observed the samething. If you don't have any kind of mechanical filteration where did all that crap go?

My guess; if you kept all that fish at the same time you added too many fish in a 30 gal before the rocks fully cured and the tank matured. You tried to handle that bioload with a CL skimmer.It looks like you don't have anything to elimiate particules. If you don't have any flow pushing the detritus under the rock work and your sand is as coarse as it seems in the pictures probably all that crap was trapped by the sand. Nitrate and phosphate levels look allright but i would think about if this is because of the efficient filteration or consumption of GHA.

[michika]

Kadaytar,

None of my rock is from any LFS, I never said that...

There only used to be 3 fish in the system up until about 2 weeks ago when my 90g crashed, there are an excess of fish in the system now because I am waiting for a home for them. The algae problem was around long before the extra fish.

The three original fish, orange shoulder, kole, and sixline, were added to the tank to prepare them for my upgrade. The orange shoulder at the time was less then 0.5", same as the kole. They aren't being housed long term in the nano, it was only to get them used to the flow.

The coralife skimmer came with the system, its doing well for me now. I have been looking for an alternatie, but space is at a premium at the moment. I run filtersocks, and do 2 water changes of 5g per week.

My sand is black tidal sand by Seachem. I found research that contradicted what others have posted. I also keep my sand well turned over, I have a lipstick conch, bumblebee snails, and a few other miscelanious snails which keep the sand bed clean and turned over regularly.

My rocks are actually piled up in a maze of caves with loc-line running within the caves between for flow. There is about a 2" gap between the back wall and the rock to allow for better water movement.

I doubt the algae problem comes from the fish, while they may now contribute to it, they weren't there when it started. The rocks and all the items in the tank are fully cured. Remember everything came from my 230g or previous tanks, corals and clams included. Why would I want flow to push detritus under the rockwork? I don't want it to be built up to cause problems.

[michika]

andrewsk,

I've looked at both WWM, and read what Anthony Calfo wrote before. They are just two opinions. I've read both descenting, and confirming opinions. I said I will consider the sandbed as a possible source, but I'm not yet prepared to remove it without first understanding why I should.

As to answer the natural light question. For the last month there has been 0 natural light getting to the tank. I now keep my blinds closed all day, every day.


Marie,

Thank you for the photos!

[marie]

Catherine, don't give up the battle as I said earlier it takes a lot of patience and perseverance. i still insist once it takes hold it needs very little in the way of nutrients to survive.
When I had the hair algae and it was really bad, you couldn't tell that I had any rocks they were so covered. (For some reason my camera always goes missing when my tank looks really bad :razz: ) I finally fought the battle over the long term by letting the algae grow really long (it is easier to manually remove when its long) siphon it all out and then place all the crabs, snails and urchins directly onto the short stubs that is left.

It took a long time for me but eventually I won... only to be taken over by dictyota but thats another story :razz:

[michika]

Catherine, don't give up the battle as I said earlier it takes a lot of patience and perseverance. i still insist once it takes hold it needs very little in the way of nutrients to survive.
When I had the hair algae and it was really bad, you couldn't tell that I had any rocks they were so covered. (For some reason my camera always goes missing when my tank looks really bad :razz: ) I finally fought the battle over the long term by letting the algae grow really long (it is easier to manually remove when its long) siphon it all out and then place all the crabs, snails and urchins directly onto the short stubs that is left.

It took a long time for me but eventually I won... only to be taken over by dictyota but thats another story :razz:

I think I've come to exactly that point. I've eliminted all of the sources that I think triggered the outbreak, old MH bulb, tap water, and possibly too much natural light. While I'm still considering all the other suggestions, the rock, the sand, etc. I kind of just want to leave it and see what happens. Mostly because I now if it becomes a constant drain on me, then I won't want to work with it. This is definitely one of those cases where less is more. Less work, means the more patience I have for the hobby. :lol:

I'll give it until September/October, see what happens, and then maybe revisit the idea of removing the sandbed, and swapping out rocks. I'll try the magnesium method, see how that treats me, then just kind of sit back and wait.

I really enjoyed the 10-15 minutes per week of maintence I used to enjoy.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Best of luck, Catherine! I hope it disappears for ya :)

[Chin_Lee]

Catharine i read this awhile ago from several reefers and I never tried it until last month and I can confirm that this undisputedly worked for me.
I had 5 patches of GHA that would not go away. My rabbitfish stopped eating it as soon as it learned that nori tasted much better. So I finally tried this method which is applying hot boiling water directly onto the GHA. Initiallly I tried doing it with a turkey baster several times before and didn't work well because the hot gases in the baster pushed out the hot water as soon as i sucked it up and lifted it out of the hot water container.
I finally got one of the flexible rubbermaid containers that looks like this:
http://www.rubbermaid.com/rubbermaid/images/product/3160_sm.jpg

I removed the white straw tab on the cap and you will see a hole on the cap that lets the liquid out into the white straw tab. This hole will fit a 1/4" flexible hose very snugly. Insert a hose that is long enough to manuever under and around rocks.
Turn off all tank water circulation devices.
Pour hot boiling scalding hot water into the bottle, cap it up,
Turn the bottle upside down into your tank, and squirt the hot water all over a good sized patch of GHA.
Squirt slowly so the hot water "lingers" on the GHA.

Depending on your tank size, I would consider target one rock at a time. Continue doing this until you've targeted all your rocks and then start again from the beginning. You will start seeting GHA shedding off the next day so make sure you clean the powerhead intakes or overflow intakes.
Keep your skimmer skimming WET! this will ensure the dying GHA doesn't fuel more nutrients into your tank.
If you have corals nearby, move them before doing this if you are concerned. My acros didn't seem to care or mind when I did it when them nearby.
Some people will argue that this will kill your liverock's bacteria. I will argue that it will kill your GHA and some bacteria on the surface under the GHA but your liverock's inside bacteria will be fine.
Similarly, this product could work too but harder to apply under rocks without the hose attachment.
http://www.rubbermaid.com/rubbermaid/images/product/7f82_sm.jpg
Seriously, try this method first. If you are apprehensive, do it to one or two rocks first. My GHA patches disappeared after a week and I am currently GHA free.

[andresont]

As i am too, a happy BB tank owner i second Kadaytar's comments re:sand, skimmer and flow.

I would get rid of the CrapTrap i.e. sand for sure. even though you do have sand sifters, detritus is still there and lots of it. It will not go away unless syphoned out.
I was not in favor of BB tank myself before, but OMG how much crap is trapped in that sand ! I only have 1 tiny Tang, one clown and few tiny gobyes in my 60gal, but still a LOT of detritus needs to be syphoned every week. And that is with enormous ammount of flow and decent skimmer.

JM2CW

[bv_reefer]

-that hot water in water bottle technique sounds reasonable and i would try it but the patches of algae are 2'' above my condy anemone, so i'm a little apprehensive @ the moment-

[fishface]

i second the boiling water as well. i got rid of a bryopsis problem with that method.

[Chin_Lee]

-that hot water in water bottle technique sounds reasonable and i would try it but the patches of algae are 2'' above my condy anemone, so i'm a little apprehensive @ the moment-

2" is plenty of room for this. if you are still cautious, cover the anenome with saran wrap before applying.

[michika]

Thanks Chin_Lee I'll take a look around for a bottle like that, and maybe I'll try it this week.

There is however some good news. I think its pretty safe to say that there is no more nutrients feeding the GHA. I say this because any of the places that the urchin has cleaned have remained cleaned for 2 weeks now. The algae does not regrow after Lurchin' Urch has cleaned an area.

[Chin_Lee]

Thanks Chin_Lee I'll take a look around for a bottle like that, and maybe I'll try it this week.

There is however some good news. I think its pretty safe to say that there is no more nutrients feeding the GHA. I say this because any of the places that the urchin has cleaned have remained cleaned for 2 weeks now. The algae does not regrow after Lurchin' Urch has cleaned an area.

i think thats the problem with GHA in that once you have it, its not going to just disappear on its own. Like all other organisms in the tank, each and everyone is competing for something. In the case of GHA, its nutrients and as long as you have something or anything that is producing waste (fish/pods/inverts/bacteria on liverock) it will be able to sustain itself. It may not thrive and spread when the nutrient levels are low but there is always something in the tank that will provide just enough nutrients for it to stay.................... or until you decide to poach them.

[danny zubot]

I went through somthing similar to what you are experiencing but to lesser degree it seems. I tried the sea hare route and similar results as many others; the power heads got them. I will vouch for Drew's sea hare though, it did a wonderful job after I rescued it from a power head. :mrgreen:

Its encouraging to hear that the areas your urchin has cleaned are staying cleaned. So far, my tank is staying GHA free after I eventually over hauled it. My problem was an extreme bio load, which I've since cut in half. How many fish do you have in your tank?

[michika]

I do currently have a high number of fish in the tank, but originally I just had 3. I hope to return to the 3-4 mark in the next week or so. The current fish are:
tiny orange shoulder tang 1" (going)
tiny kole tang 1" (going)
ocellaris clown (going)
yellow damsel (going)
sixline wrasse
green clown goby
psychadelic mandarin
4x blue chromis ~0.25-0.5" (probably going)

The tangs came to me quite small, needing to be plumped up and accustomed to higher flow. They were originally supposed to go to a 150g, which was supposed to replace the 90g before the crash. They are two of my fish that I want in my big tank (1000+g) which I hope to start in December, or possibly January of the new year. Most of the extra fish are from the 90g crash, and I'm pretty picky about finding them good homes.

[saltynuts]

send me a pic of the tangs i need some fish!!!

[michika]

send me a pic of the tangs i need some fish!!!

There are photos from today in my tank thread. Some of the fish are spoken for already, the clown, damsel, possibly the chormis.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=32184&page=2

[danny zubot]

I think ditching some of those fish would definately help, especially the chromis.

[scsi]

add a couple of Sea Hare's.....
See my tank Journal post.
They're mowing down GHA like crazy.....

[michika]

I think ditching some of those fish would definately help, especially the chromis.

Much easier said then done. My chromis seem to love my overflow. They all purposefully jump into the overflow to ride the current. They are so tiny I would think that the chormis and clownfish make more of a mess then anything! :mrgreen:

[bv_reefer]

i really want to get a sea hare from ocean aquatics to mow down my hair algae, but the only rock that needs algae control is the one that my big condy anemone is attached too, so the anemone might sting and kill the sea hare right? :neutral:

[michika]

Sorry, I don't know much about seahares other then what I've read. I know even less about what interactions may occure between a seahare and an anemone. You may want to try posting a new thread with that question.

[bv_reefer]

-ya I waz just reading about them yesterday, and how they release some toxic purple dye when easily stressed, so that kind of kills my interest for one...oh well I guess another 4-5 turbo snails or some margarita snails will have to do..:smile:

[Mr. Fairy Wrasse]

I had the same problem and tried the same things but in the end, I tried ALGONE at a high dose and the HA dissappeared, simple as that. Good luck!

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Sea hares & abalone work well on hair algae.

[naesco]

Greg,

Yeah I did try your suggestion, I got a whole bunch more hermits, starved them (they seemed really happy with it :D) then toseed them back in the display, they are more active, but not so much in the hair algae department.


Der_Iron_Chef
I searched out seahares, and could only ever find big ones. I was prepared to swallow my fear of them toppling my frags, etc. but instead found an urchin and went that route. The urchin does really well, as in it literally strips the algae off the rocks, but it can't seem to keep up.


Skimmin,

I am not able to make those types of adjustments, my tank is fully stocked with 9 clams of various species, a large selection of SPS, and LPS corals, I also have a large clean up crew. I would be afraid that a lower SG would kill my tank.

Do you have any literature about GHA, and lower salinity, or lower temps? In all my research I've never before come across this suggetion.


tknude,

I do prune at the same time I do water changes. I ensure that 95% of what I prune does not make it back in the tank at all. I'm pretty good at pruning it in clumps, with very few stray pieces getting into the system. I did tear down my whole system a few months ago to scrub all the algae, and it didn't seem to have any effect either. How bad was your hair algae problem? How many months have you been battling it?


Chaloupa, and Marie,

Thanks for the encouragement. How long on average did you battle green hair algae Chaloupa? Was it bad like mine? There are recent photos in my tank thread. This stuff is just really pushing my buttons. It has literally reduced my usable surfaces for frags by probably 30%. I just wish I could see some sort of end in sight!

Go to your LFS and order a small 2 inch or medium sized sea hare. Large is not the only size that is available.

[marie]

Just so everyone is aware this thread dates back to aug 2007, I think her hair algae problem is beat :mrgreen:

[Doug]

Just so everyone is aware this thread dates back to aug 2007, I think her hair algae problem is beat :mrgreen:


:lol:

[michika]

Thanks guys. Yes the problem was beat a LONG time ago....

What is with people reviving my threads from 2007 this past week? Entertaining, but really strange.

[Mr. Fairy Wrasse]

OK so how did you get rid of the GHA in the end???:question:

[michika]

I moved, and changed tanks at the same time.

[68shelby]

I had a problem with hair algae as I had inherited the tank from someone who lost interest. I did the water changes the new halide , introduced a algae team of crabs , lawnmower blenie and 2 tangs, Pulled algae from the rocks by hand, and I wasnt winning . I finally pulled out the rocks that were bad and scrubed them with a toothbrush and rinsed them with water change water in my kitchen sink. Took about a month of work as I would do 3-4 rocks a week. By the end of it my yellow tang finished the rest. And then he ate the zenia becuase I had no algae left.