Sump help please?

[cav~firez22]

Hi everyone,

I just bought a 135 Gallon Tank, stand canopy, sump & pump system.

I am having issues with my sump, as i am new to this setup.

Here is a pic of the sump, running.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/d3vil_Z22/135_Gallon_reef/79f107f1.jpg

My issue is micro bubbles. i think

My tank is just clouded with them. its not crystal clear at all.
I have the returns backed to around half, and there are still micro bubbles going in to the 3rd chamber of the sump.


Any input on how to have the sump setup would be great... ie. filter media.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Lots of people swear by the use of filter socks to eliminate microbubbles (as well as to collect detritus). Not sure where it would go, exactly. Where's the output of your skimmer?

[cav~firez22]

no skimmer yet

just a UV steralizer , and a DIY Coil Denitrator.

Denitrator outputs in the first chamer, UV outputs under water in the 3rd chamber

[mark]

Often the baffles are arranged over-under-over, might mod that.

Another thing to try is putting another baffle on the far right, with the bottom corners cut a bit at a 45°. You don't want the baffle completely sealed as then you're limiting the volume available for evaporation.

And I second the socks.

[cav~firez22]

ya gonna try to find socks for it

[Redrover]

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k81/Redrover_02/DSCN0253-1.jpg
Here's a pic of my H/S in sump skimmer...I don't quiet know what your doing..
What's the filter pad doing laying over top of your baffles...I recommend a good skimmer. Mybe PM Marc
What's the wood doing under first baffle...No water flow?
I only use a sock for two days after a water change, then remove it.
Water line should be close to the top of your second baffle...get rid of filter pad
RJ

[cav~firez22]

it quiets down the water fall. even with the pump @ 1/2 thats a freakin ragin waterfall. I dont know what im doing either.. other then getting frusterated with this.

[Redrover]

Like I said PM Marc [SuperFudge ]

[Johnny Reefer]

What's the filter pad doing laying over top of your baffles...? What's the wood doing under first baffle...?
I second these questions.
They way it looks to me, those pieces of wood are blocking your water flow. Consequently, it is just flowing overtop of the two baffles. It's also likely not flowing through your carbon bag either. I suspect the filter pad is an attempt to reduce turbulence and, thus, microbubbles? I suggest getting rid of the wood. Then your water will flow as it should...under the first baffle and over the second. Your microbubbles should reduce during this water path. Replace the wood with "eggcrate" if you still want to use the carbon bag that way.
Also, can you raise the water level of the third chamber and still maintain adequate reserve in the event of a power failure? If so, I suggest raising it to just below the top of that second baffle.

HTH.

[deep6er]

I would get a filter sock, raise the water level in your sump a bit, get rid of the wood and filter pads. Are you sure you are not sucking in air in any of the pumps. This might cause micro bubbles to form and a bit of water leakage, so it should be easy to spot.
Good luck keep us posted.

[cav~firez22]

Those are not Wood blocks.. They are Fluval 404 Foam pads.

[cav~firez22]

I would get a filter sock, raise the water level in your sump a bit, get rid of the wood and filter pads. Are you sure you are not sucking in air in any of the pumps. This might cause micro bubbles to form and a bit of water leakage, so it should be easy to spot.
Good luck keep us posted.

I just redid all the seals again with 2 coats of glue. and re siliconed the pump seals.

If i look in the sump, i can see micro bubbles in the 3rd chamber, goin into the pump

[deep6er]

What kind of over flow do you have? can you take a picture of it?

[cav~firez22]

i could... Its a reef ready tank.. does that help?

http://canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34446

theres a bunch of pics of the tank

[deep6er]

Did you try filling the sump a bit more

[cav~firez22]

Ya, its to the point where if i shut the pump off, the sump fills to about 1/2 an inch from the top.

[Johnny Reefer]

Those are not Wood blocks.. They are Fluval 404 Foam pads.
I'd still take 'em out. JMO.

[andresont]

Your return pump might be sucking a little air hence the micro bubbles.

[cav~firez22]

Well, if i take them out, then whats to stop the "****" that falls down the overflow, into the sump, from going back into the main tank? The filterfloss does a ****ty job at stopping stuff.

im pretty sure there is air getting sucked into the pump. as i can see the micro bubbles in the sump. im pretty sure its not the pump lines, as i gobbed a ton of weldon 705 all over them yesterday.

Right now, i have the pump BARLEY running. the 2 valves are just opened by about 1/8th of a turn, and some of the micro has disipated, but there is still some in there.

[Jason McK]

The water level in your sump should be higher. it should be high enough to elliminate the water fall. As as high as that second baffle. This will also help with the micro bubbles. Is there a baffle behind the stand brace?

J

[cav~firez22]

NO Baffles. Just Weir's

If the sump has that much water in it when running, it will overflow if the pump shuts off.

[Jason McK]

Well the sump looks like it is designed for the water to go under the first baffle and over the second. Is the water going over the fist baffle? I would remove the second baffle and cut it shorter or just leave it out.

[cav~firez22]

may give that a shot.

[Redrover]

As Jason said I don't believe there's water going under your first baffle and by the design it should be...Raise water level in sump, should be close to the top of second baffle...this will get rid of the waterfall...get rid of the filter pad

[Palster]

I live in Kelowna and have a very similar setup to what you have (135 gallon tank with sump). I built my own sump out of a 50 gallon breeder tank based on one of Melevsreef designs(http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html). Feel free to send me a PM if you have any questions or would like me to have a look at it. It would be great to talk to a fellow reefer from Kelowna.

[cav~firez22]

pm'd

[Borderjumper]

I think your baffles are backwards, or you need to put one more in so that the first one is an over. Mine is Over, under, over and works awesome without any noise or air bubbles at all. . If your first baffle is an over, most of the "chunks" get trapped in the first section, where your skimmer should be located.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Carrida/sump006.jpg

[Johnny Reefer]

Well, if i take them out, then whats to stop the "****" that falls down the overflow, into the sump, from going back into the main tank? .....
Hmmm. From what I can see in the pictures of your other thread the feeds to your overflows are from the bottom? I've never seen that before and I'm not sure how common it is. Mind you, I've been in the reef hobby only 2 1/2 years. Maybe someone else can chime in on that.

FWIW, here's a pic of what I've got. That's one of those thick scubber pads. Helps prevent "****" going into the overflow. Probably no help to you though, if yours is fed from the bottom.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b355/1Johnny2Reefer3/IMG_0807.jpg

I also noticed in your other thread that you had Fluval and Eheim canisters on your previous tank. Are you running those on this tank?
I see two grey hoses on the right side of your sump. Are these for a Fluval canister?
I run a Fluval 405 canister on my reef sump and I get microbubbles from it because it doesn't completely seal properly and draws in air.

Just throwin' ideas out there.

[cav~firez22]

no the hoses are running to the uv steralizer and back. no filters hooked up to system at all.

[Palster]

I sent you a PM with some contact information but if your return pump is flowing 2700 GPH (the pump you have listed in your profile shows 2700 GPH) that would explain why you are having problems. A 2700 GPH pump is way too much flow for a sump return pump and would definitely cause the problems you are describing. Most people use pumps with this much flow on a closed loop system.

[Captainhemo]

What kind of powerhead is running the UV sterilizer? Is there any chance it is sucking air and dumping it into the 3rd chamber ?
BTW, another Kelowna reefer here guys !!

[SuperFudge]

The snapper is too big at full tilt, cut it back to 1/3 or so, the pump is designed to do that and will be fine.

Keep the foam blocks in and run your sump lower...this will make sure NO water spills over the first baffle plate and all has to go under the plate and through all the foam.( therefore getting rid of the micro bubbles that the socks didnt catch)

This will also be your indicator that the foam is getting clogged, as the water in the first section will start to spill over the first baffle...right now its running like the foam is clogged....this is tellin me your flow is way too high, and/or your sump water level is.

Likley when you have the micro socks and your flow is right, you can remove the foam.

If micro bubbles are coming into the third chamber, your flow is too much or water is coming "over" the first plate...or possibly a leak in your intake side of your pump.(seems youve already considered this)

Micro socks on the exit pipes.

You dont need a high "sump to tank" turnover rate...keep it low enouph to provide the tank with adequate surface skimming and thats all, your main tank flow will be provided by "in" tank powerheads or closed loops.

Any pumps or fluval exit lines NEED to be returned to the first or second chamber...not near the intake for the return pump....fluvals constantly spit air.

Try putting an elbow and a small piece of pipe onto the inside of the intake bulkhead, and place the intake to an area of the sump that is less likley to have air bubbles. (usually a corner)

Marc.

[cav~firez22]

Captain Hemo, The powerhead doing that is an 802. the output is in first chamber.

Marc,

With the snapper at 1/3 on both lines, there is alomst no flow. yes, after a day or two the bubbles would dissipate. but there would be next to no flow in the tank.

there is no fluval running on the system at all.. in the pic its just hose running from a 802, through a uv steralizer, and back to the tank.

I had a lengthy phone call with Marc from Hidden reef already, and tried some stuff. It was hard because obviously if anyone could "see" the setup, im sure they would see the problem, or have a great fix to it. He suggested some foam blocks that are used in the sumps, and it was just accidently forgotten, so i should be seeing that soon.

I am unable to find the socks to fit this sump here in kelowna so im gonna have to order them up.

Microbubbles do go into the third chamber, however, not because water flows over the first weir, they just go through the entire sump .

Im positive there is no leak in the pump side of the plumbing. I used an eniter can of the weldon 705 yesterday.

My main tank flow is now the problem. when i bought this, i bought it because i did not want to use power heads anymore, and was told this would be the route to take.

Arghh. the frustration.....
:morning:

[Palster]

Sent you another PM. As alway Marc (Superfudge) has some excellent technical advice. I wasn't aware that the Snapper pumps were okay to run throttled back to 1/3 flow.

Glenn

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Sent you another PM. As alway Marc (Superfudge) has some excellent technical advice. I wasn't aware that the Snapper pumps were okay to run throttled back to 1/3 flow.

Glenn

...as long as you throttle them back on the intake, and not the ouput.

[cav~firez22]

...as long as you throttle them back on the intake, and not the ouput.

Now im confused. I was told that i throttle them on the output of the pump, Never the intake of it. hmmm

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I'm an idiot. Still working on my first cup of coffee....that's what I meant. SORRY! :redface:

[cav~firez22]

LOL

phew. me 2

[SuperFudge]

Marc,

With the snapper at 1/3 on both lines, there is alomst no flow. yes, after a day or two the bubbles would dissipate. but there would be next to no flow in the tank.



Wow, a day or two ? they should dissapate in less than a half hour.



there is no fluval running on the system at all.. in the pic its just hose running from a 802, through a uv steralizer, and back to the tank.



Oh, ok. none the less they should also be returned to the first or second chamber.


I am unable to find the socks to fit this sump here in kelowna so im gonna have to order them up.



These will make a world of difference for you im sure.



My main tank flow is now the problem. when i bought this, i bought it because i did not want to use power heads anymore, and was told this would be the route to take.



This still is the route to take,but it is impossible to get the flow on any reef tank up to snuff through the return pump alone.
if it was a reef ready set up you purchased, likley it has only one or two at most 1" drains....these can account for at most about 6-700 gph on average each with a passive flow. on yours that means about 1/3 of your snapper is being used.
Any more is too much and will cause problems.
safe to say most reef tanks will be a minimum of 20x turnover rate...youd never achieve this with a return pump.
So, you WILL need additional in tank current, i would consider using tunze`s or koralia`s, vortechs to achieve the additional flow you need.

So with these in place return pump flow is only enouph for surface skimming.(no oil slick on top).

[Der_Iron_Chef]

What about a closed loop?

[cav~firez22]

well, I had Palster stop by and shed some knowledge upon my system, and we both determined that the problem is sediment in the water that is not filtering out or settling. I am going to try to polish the water with a big filter and pump, and hopefully this works.

Thank you everone for your advice, it is greatly appreciated. I'm gonna get some of those filter socks asap as well.

Thanks again.

[mseepman]

Hey I was wondering how things with your sump are going? I am in the process of putting together a 20gal sump for my 70gal display and am always interested in what other people have experienced first.
I was glad to see some other Okanagan reefers come to your aid. If you're ever desperate for saltwater supplies (like filter socks), AJ's in Vernon carries quite a bit of stuff.

[Captainhemo]

Was kinda curiius myself as I'm also working on a sump redesign soon

[cav~firez22]

my bubble issues are gone. just put a piece of filter floss around the output of the protein skimmer, and that got rid of the bubbles from that. The sump is still a litle small because I cant put anything is it AKA refigum, calc reactor. ect