need advice

[sea gnome]

I hve disassembled my 90g tank and preparing to redo it again. I have taken out the undergravel filter and crushed coral bed images/smiles/icon_eek.gif . I am now wanting a sand bed. Do you suggest dolomite or live sand or a ratio of both? I am also contemlating a sump /refuguim and wonder if its worthwhile to get the tand drilled. I also wonder if the uv sterilizer could be hooked up to the sump and where it would fit in and would a magnum 350 power canister filter drive a sump?

Thanks Rachel

[StirCrazy]

hey sea gnome, Dolomite will turn into live sand but some people don't like how fine it is. I am going to do a mixtureof sugar sand and dolomite in my tank when I set it up.

in my opinion a sump/refuge is worth it and drilling your tank is about the best way to go (remember no one will guarentte that your tank won't crack when they drill it so find a place that has done lots of tanks.

your magnum 350 is 350 gal/ hour at 0 feet of head if you are putting your sump under your tank then you will probably be luckey to get 100 gph out of it whare for a 90gal tank you should shoot for about 900 gph. if you are going to put the refuge above the tank and you want a gentle flow into it you could use the 350 to pump upto it and then have a overflow going back to your main tank. this way you drill the sump and you don't have to drill your 90 gal tank. I am not sure what the ideal flow throught a refuge is but it is a slower flow. maby some one else will chime in here also.

Steve

[Canadian]

Rachel,

First of all, let me ask you: What type of corals do you intend to keep in this tank? The reason that I ask is because a reef tank can be quite successful with a Live Deep Sand Bed, however, if you intend to have a predominantly SPS reef tank then my experience leads me to suggest that you not put a DSB in the main display tank, and instead put it in your sump. Granted, there are many successful reef tanks with DSBs that are SPS dominated, the problem that arises is that with the high laminar water currents that SPS enjoy for optimal health, the high degree of water flow tends to cause the unpleasant result of kicking up a lot of the fine sand grains and depositing them in the LR and on corals. Clearly this is not a "good thing" *in my best Martha Stewart impression*

Now, this problem can be compounded if you use a substrate as fine as crushed dolomite in the display and have high water flow. Ron Shimek and Rob Toonen both agree that DSBs may not be the best choice for SPS dominated tanks. In fact, Ron Shimek's tank(s) are predominantly LPS and Softies. Eric Borneman goes about solving this problem by having a rather complicated series of "filters" plumbed together. You won't really need to do this, and your solution could easily be to make sure that your sump (or possibly entirely separate refugium) is a decent size, and then place the DSB in there. This has the added benefit of leaving the majority of sand bed unobstructed by LR, whereas in your display tank, much of the surface of the sand bed is obstructed by the LR. Increasing the exposed area of sand aids in the DSBs nitrogen/nutrient fixing capabilities.

I also highly recommend you have the tank drilled. Seastar will drill tanks. However, they are supposed to be a wholesale company, so technically they're not supposed to do any business with you unless you're a business owner. But, truth be told, sometimes they'll ignore this formality images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Your UV sterilizer is a special case. (I won't comment on whether or not it's necessary) The wattage of your UV sterilizer will dictate at what rate the water should flow through the unit. So while the simple solution would be to plumb the UV Sterilizer on the output side of your return pump from your sump, it's likely not a reasonable one. If you really want the UV Sterilizer incorporated somewhere in the system, you're best bet will be to have it in the last chamber of your sump, hooked up to its own pump which is rated for the flow rate appropriate for your specific UV Sterilizer.

I apologize for the lengthy reply, but I've been catching up with what has been posted on a lot of the boards recently and I've noticed that there are a lot of inexperienced people espousing inaccurate advice ad nauseum. And seeing that you're intending to "restart" your tank with the intention of "doing things right" I thought I'd help you make an informed decision.

[ 20 January 2002: Message edited by: Canadian ]</p>

[DJ88]

Hi Rachel,

I'll try to answer a few questions of yours. images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quoteDo you suggest dolomite or live sand or a ratio of both?

I'd suggest a mixture of various grain sizes. Going up from sugar(aragamax) to the larger grain sizes. Here is an idea of the ratio.

http://www.rshimek.com/images/wSediment_Distn.jpg

As for the Dolomite I'd say no IMO. Dolomite lime is made to be placed on your lawn to help keep the pH up. When it is processed there is no concern over impurities such as metals toxins etc. Heck a guy digging the stuff up with his oil dripping backhoe could heed natures call and decide where better than off the side... The point I am making is that yes dolomite is cheap and readily accessable but at what cost? Another concern of mine is its chemical combosition. Dolomite is mostly Magnesium Carbonate not Calcium carbonate. What happens at the bottom of a DSB where the pH has dropped sufficiently to dissolve the dolomite and put the magnesium levels up above normal in your tank? will it have detrimental efects on the corals? the fish? I don't know for sure. And I'd rather spend the money to get what I know is made for aquarium use. Not my lawn(not that I have a lawn) images/smiles/icon_wink.gif . This isn't a cheap hobby. More people need to realise this. All too often people cut corners thinking things will be fine and in the long run they have to spend the cash down the road anyways. With the inital investment made into what has been proven to work you may very well save yourself some headaches down the road.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quotesump /refuguim

In many ways tehse are both a good thing to have in a tank. A sump not only gives you the cahnce to increase the area of your system for nutrient breakdown it allows you to place your heater and skimmer out of sight. As well it gives you a place to have the effluent flow for a Ca reactor or Kalk stirrer. On a system of your size you are going to want a large in sump style skimmer. IMO & IME there are no hang on skimmers capable of handling a tank of that size and competantly keeping up. I have built HOT(hang on tank) skimmers and put them on a 90 with no corals. It barely kept up. If it wasn't for the tang the tank would have exploded in hair algae. IMO no skimmers are actually capable of what the manufacturer claims. Its business. Sumps are also a great place for macro algae for nutrient export.

Refugiums are what thier name implies. A refuge for critters that would normally be eaten in your main tank by predators of one sort or another. It is also a great place for macro algae for nutrient export. Have it drain into your main system with no pumps so its a constant supply of fresh food for the tank.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quoteits worthwhile to get the tand drilled

Yes. It will make things a lot easier. Otherwise if you decide to have a sump you will need to have an overflow. And those are risky. If it gets blocked or the suction fails and your main return pump keeps going you will fill your tank and then overflow it. Now I am not saying this will happen, but it can. Get it drilled. You'll enjoy it. My new 45 is drilled as is the 120 in my storage for future use.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quoteI also wonder if the uv sterilizer could be hooked up

Yes it can be quite easily. I have never used one so can't help you much more than that. All you would need for plumbing is a pump that takes water from the sump and passes it through the UV.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quotemagnum 350 power canister filter drive a sump

No. You are going to want a much more powerful pump on your tank than that. I am planning on putting a MAG18 as a return for my 120 if not something with more power than that. Take a peek in teh members tank forum and you will see what others are using to get a good idea. A lot of peole seem to go abotu 10 times your tank size for GPH. That is a guesstimate. You'll need to know what you want to place in the tank and what the demands for circulation are.

Well I hope that all helps.. If you have anymore questions dont hesitate to ask. images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Dolf]

Just two things.

First if you want a refugium then from all that I have read the turnover rate of the refugium should be about 4-5X the volume of the refugium each hour. Many people who nee the high flow rate are splitting the sump into a refugium side that overflows into the actual sump and split the line coming down with a ball valve on the side of the refugium so as to control the flow. In this manner you can put whatever size return pump in it that you like, use one side as a refugium and use the other to house all of your equipment and you do not have to worry about disturbing the pods too much with the high water flow (not that it really affects them that much IME.)

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote Heck a guy digging the stuff up with his oil dripping backhoe could heed natures call and decide where better than off the side...

Could decide??? Oh, I GUARANTEE you that is where he goes. There is no way he is walking a mile to the can. That being said you bring up a good point about the impurities. I was going to and may still add it. There are a fair amount of impurities floating around mining pits IME and the only saving grace is that for the amount of product produced it should be minimal (a bit of bearing grease, the grease from the well greased bucket pins and the leaking hydraulic hose that is mandatory on all machines) would most likely not be a problem in the 50 Lbs that you receive. Though I still cannot help but wonder...

As for the problem of it dissolving Magnesium Carbonate I was reading in another forum that if the PH gets that low you have other far more serious problems. Once again I wonder and may ask the question in the water chemistry forum at RC to be sure.

Anyhow, they are probably right. If you are just starting out and are not the adventurous "lets see if this works" kind of person (and I do not know if anybody can really afford to be) then sticking with the proven substrate may be best. For myself I run no skimmer and will try almost anything (though I may not dump my used oil in the tank just to see "what if" images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif )

-Danny

O.K. I lied, I just ran a search RC. I know that Dr. Ron had given it his blessing (provided that it was the correct size) and it seems as though Randy Holmes-Farley has as well.

Here are two quotes when asked about it being O.K. "Dolomite, as you know, contians both calcium and magnesium carbonate. I don't really see a big problem with it, but maybe a little one. It's possible that as it slowly dissolves, the magnesium level may rise, and you might want to take a measurement of the magnesium once in a while to make sure it isn't rising too high.

I'd expect that routine water changes would keep it in check, and a big one would certainly correct it if for some reason the sand were dissolving fairly fast."

As well as "I'm on vacation right now and don't have my copy of Spotte's Captive Seawater Fishes, but I seem to recall him having an entire section covering the use of CaCO3 and MgCO3/CaCO3 mixtures (like dolomite). He concluded (if I recall correctly) that they became the same thing on their surfaces when exposed to seawater."

I still may not say that he recomends it, but he does not question the sanity of people who decide to give it a shot. If you want to read the whole thing then here is the link. dolomite (http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54946&highlight=dolomite)

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: dan150 ]</p>

[Troy F]

Rachel, welcome to the board! There is some good advice and opinions here. I'd say read as much as you can for the next while. When I'm not feeling so groggy I'll find a link to a good reading list. www.reefs.org (http://www.reefs.org) has a fantastic library that is definately worth a look.

I agree with what Andrew said in regards to the bbs lately. It seems that many of the really experienced reefers have more or less disappeared to be replaced with a lot of trash.

I'll add my two cents on the sandbed issue; if you can afford an aquarium companies sand that would be the root I'd go. Also, I've seen many tanks with DSB and high flow so it is possible.

Have fun!

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: Troy F ]</p>

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

No to Dolomite...okay. Well, it is a higher risk solution, since dolomite grade do vary. IMHO, the best dolomite would be as good or better than the current Caribsea stuff. I guess you are trying to save money. The best midway point is to use silica sand. It can be found in white, and it will not dissolve in to the water (very easily).

As for dolomite dissolving...we will have to argue about this at the meeting. Anyway, here's some interesting info on magnesium :

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/library/articleview2.asp?Section=&RecordNo=2856

Another good reading is :

http://home.gardenet.co.za/landman/Starting%20with%20Marines.htm

- Victor.

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]</p>

[DJ88]

Hi Victor,

I won't argue about this. I will talk. And discuss. Even with the info available I won't suggest dolomite as a source. Ok it may not dissolve and cause a problem but it isn't meant for a tank use. Can I go out and buy aquarium grade silica? yes. dolomite? No. I still worry about the oils and such that are falling of off the equipment getting into a tank. It is meant for your lawn not for use with my corals. First and foremost those corals deserve the right to the BEST possible conditions I am able to provide for them. If I cut corners to save a few dollars IMO I am guilty of neglect if those animals die due to my "cost cutting" measures.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quoteWell, it is a higher risk solution, since dolomite grade do vary. IMHO, the best dolomite would be as good or better than the current Caribsea stuff

Why put your corals at risk? I won't and I don't know how others will.

If it is risky how can it be as good or better? To me, it can't. Caribsea is providing a product FOR our aquariums. Target(or whoever pacakges the lime) doesn't. They are packaging it for your lawn. If it is risky why don't you say that when otehrs are asking about it? I think it shoud be said with each and every mention. But that is me.

This is not an hobby where I feel you can be cheap. It is an expensive hobby. End of story. You try to make it cheap by replacing what is found naturally you run the risk of killing everything in your tank. I won't take that risk.
I have bought these animals with the understanding that I alone am responsible for the proper care of them. Everytime I lose something or something happens I feel it. These are LIVE beings that we have taken from thier natural envorinment. I will recreate that natural environment to eh best of my ability. I can't make my own DIY sand as I can MH lighting or VHO. I can make a bettter skimmer or Ca reactor. I can't make or DIY a substrate as found in the ocean. So I will buy and will recommend spending the money for what is made for this hobby.

If you want to take a risk that is your choice. I won't and will tell others not to as well. Bottom line is that you alone are responsible for those creatures in yoru tank. If you want to put them at risk it is your choice. I will not and won't recommend a risky substrate substitute.

Rachel,

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

Victor,

if you want to discuss this more could you start a new thread. All to often threads are being taken over by others and the original topic gets forgotten in the chatting that ensues.

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: DJ88 ]</p>

[Aquattro]

Rachel, listen to Darren on this one. Buy the PROPER sand. If you need to cut corners, Bruce and I can help you build a skimmer, reactor and lighting solutions. Maybe Dolomite is great stuff...killing a coral isn't the way to find out. There are a lot of ways to cut costs in this hobby, but there are other areas that just don't warrant it. Sand is one of them.
Talk to Bruce about the options available to you when you see him, he'll give you good advice.

[DJ88]

Steve,

No I am not saying anything against people who chose using it. If they chose to follow that route so be it. I am expressing my concerns and thoughts.
Once again tho. If this wants to be discussed further start a new thread. I dont want the originator's topic to be taken over by sidebars

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

The original question was whether Domolite was a good substrate for a DSB. So it isn't quite of f topic. Like I said, it is a higher risk solution.

Rachel, if you aren't comfortable with it, then get the regular stuff. If you are in, then you can try it.

The most important part in a DSB is that it has the right particle size (which was shown above). As long as it doesn't add unwanted chemicals in to your reef and it is the right particle size, it doesn't matter if it was made from activate carbon...it will work fine for a DSB.

- Victor.

[SuperFudge]

Welcome Rachel! images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Without donning my flamesuit images/smiles/icon_razz.gif ....IMVHO,the question would be wich is best for you and your new reef?

With this in mind(and JMVHO of course) i would have to say stay away from anything that is NOT Aragonite,for a tried and true,reliable aswell as just being a natural reef substrate.

It is much more than just a site for bacteria.

Not saying other medias wont work adequately,but when all is said and done,this will be no small investment for you,(and its really not too bad to just wait that extra bit to get enouph money for the good stuff images/smiles/icon_wink.gif ....and it just makes no sence to take chances/cut corners on any portion of your reef.

(Not saying all other media users are cheap,or are taking too much risk...but many of you have much more experience and probably much more prepared for unfortunate longer term consequences....if any images/smiles/icon_wink.gif )

Even if only for peace of mind.

Good luck with your new reef...keep us updated,Marc.

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: Fudge ]</p>

[sea gnome]

Thanks everyone, I think I will NOT use dolomite as this time. I was originally just going with the proper sand but then I saw the posts about dolomite that popped up and my cheap side started rearing its ugly side. Since I want to do this "right" I will have to be strong. "In for a penny, in for a pound" comes to mind. I'm won't admit how much I have already spent, let's just leave it at it's a good thing I have more than one job.

The sump advice has been great, just saw Bruce's tonight and will be heading to Industrial Plastics tomorrow or day after.

Next question is I need to know if its easy to cure your own rock,I was thinking of doing in tank with the sand?

Thanks again images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Silverfish]

Hi Rachel, in tank curing of you live rock is a great way to do it, the little critters will move down and populate your sandbed.

Running a protein skimmer helps, along with good circulation to blow the dead/dying stuff off of the rocks.

[Aquattro]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>

The sump advice has been great, just saw Bruce's tonight and will be heading to Industrial Plastics tomorrow or day after.
images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif [/QB]<hr></blockquote>


Rachel, Industrial Plastics isn't where you want to go...unless you have spare money you don't need.
PlexiKlass on John st. has far better pricing and friendlier staff.