Humidity problems for large tank

[ClubReef]

Hi,

I'm planning on upgrading to a 240g tank in my basement and I was wondering if people with large tanks have problems with humidity?

And if you do, what have you done to combat this issue?

Any advice or comments would be appreciated.

Thanks
Darryl

[Doug]

Heat Recovery Ventilator will help solve most humidity problems in a decently sealed house. Central air for the summer.

[Delphinus]

You bet. You can count on bigtime humidity problems such as weeping windows in the winter, mildew forming on the walls and ceilings, particularly north outside walls of your house.

I ran a dehumidifier for many years, but the effect was localized and it's noisy as all get out. If you have a family, expect them to hate it.

I dealt with this problem with the equivalent of a BFG a few years ago. I installed central air and an HRV. You don't have to do the A/C, that's only for comfort and cooling in the summer, but the HRV is, in my opinion, what saved my house. I don't even have my 280 running yet - I just had evaporation from 3 reef tanks (110g, 75g and 40g - plus a FW tank I suppose too was helping add to the humidity) and it was causing HUGE problems. For me it came down to - consider the HRV, or consider quitting. Mildew on the walls, especially if you have a family - it's a no-brainer, you can't live with that.

If you're handy you can install one yourself. I believe BMWRider on this board did an install himself. I had a place that was recommended to me by Monza do mine - they did a whole analysis based on square footage, amount of air turnover required for the projected humidity, and came up with a unit sizing recommendation. I then asked them for the next model up just to increase my margin of error. Yeah, this was expensive (basically the cost of a nice large tank with all the trimmin's .. but .. like I said, it was this, or quit. And I figured since I was going for broke and they were going to tear my furnace ducting apart anyhow, might as well throw an AC on there. I have a south facing house and man did the house get hot in the summer. No more. Also no more heating problems among any of the 4 tanks. Sweet. No regrets.)

An HRV has other benefits. Now that I know what they are, I'd never consider living in a house without one.

What some people do is just vent the tank room with a bathroom fan or a furnace booster fan. This is OK in some circumstances, but it has a few drawbacks. One, you only vent air out. You rely on the furnace, and overall house leakage, and so on, to replace the air that is drawn out. Plus they are noisy (at least some are - my bathroom fans are horrendous, I'd hate to have to listen to that all day long).

An HRV (heat recovery ventilator) is basically a fan that draws air out - like a bathroom fan - but - it replaces the air it pulls out, running both streams through a heat exchanger. You recover something like 85%-90% of the heat of the outgoing air. This is important in our climate ... you'll be happy you're not pulling in air at -20 in those February coldsnaps.

It works to turnover the air volume in whole house so your air quality improves without costing you having your furnace run full time to heat the incoming air.

Anyhow like I said it is a very heavy-handed approach to eliminating humidity, but after a few years of weeping windows and mildew formation, I was ready for heavy-handed. Other people do make do with the bathroom fan vent solution, or the booster fan, but ... to me ... I think the real "once and for all" solution is the HRV.

[Veng68]

http://www.humidex.ca/

Search this site for someone who has installed a unit.

Cheers,
Vic [veng68]

[ClubReef]

Wow..thanks for sharing your experience. I'm glad you've got everything under control :)

We installed central AC this summer and I've noticed less humidity on my 90G which is located on the main floor. Do you think that a large tank placed in the basement combined with AC will be good enough to keep the humidity in check?

I have thought about the basic bathroom fan ventilation system but I'm not crazy about the whole buzzing sound..and I've read on RC that this approach is not recommended because you draw air out and not replacing it.

So if I decide to go with an HRV unit..how much can I expect to pay??

Thanks

You bet. You can count on bigtime humidity problems such as weeping windows in the winter, mildew forming on the walls and ceilings, particularly north outside walls of your house.

I ran a dehumidifier for many years, but the effect was localized and it's noisy as all get out. If you have a family, expect them to hate it.

I dealt with this problem with the equivalent of a BFG a few years ago. I installed central air and an HRV. You don't have to do the A/C, that's only for comfort and cooling in the summer, but the HRV is, in my opinion, what saved my house. I don't even have my 280 running yet - I just had evaporation from 3 reef tanks (110g, 75g and 40g - plus a FW tank I suppose too was helping add to the humidity) and it was causing HUGE problems. For me it came down to - consider the HRV, or consider quitting. Mildew on the walls, especially if you have a family - it's a no-brainer, you can't live with that.

If you're handy you can install one yourself. I believe BMWRider on this board did an install himself. I had a place that was recommended to me by Monza do mine - they did a whole analysis based on square footage, amount of air turnover required for the projected humidity, and came up with a unit sizing recommendation. I then asked them for the next model up just to increase my margin of error. Yeah, this was expensive (basically the cost of a nice large tank with all the trimmin's .. but .. like I said, it was this, or quit. And I figured since I was going for broke and they were going to tear my furnace ducting apart anyhow, might as well throw an AC on there. I have a south facing house and man did the house get hot in the summer. No more. Also no more heating problems among any of the 4 tanks. Sweet. No regrets.)

An HRV has other benefits. Now that I know what they are, I'd never consider living in a house without one.

What some people do is just vent the tank room with a bathroom fan or a furnace booster fan. This is OK in some circumstances, but it has a few drawbacks. One, you only vent air out. You rely on the furnace, and overall house leakage, and so on, to replace the air that is drawn out. Plus they are noisy (at least some are - my bathroom fans are horrendous, I'd hate to have to listen to that all day long).

An HRV (heat recovery ventilator) is basically a fan that draws air out - like a bathroom fan - but - it replaces the air it pulls out, running both streams through a heat exchanger. You recover something like 85%-90% of the heat of the outgoing air. This is important in our climate ... you'll be happy you're not pulling in air at -20 in those February coldsnaps.

It works to turnover the air volume in whole house so your air quality improves without costing you having your furnace run full time to heat the incoming air.

Anyhow like I said it is a very heavy-handed approach to eliminating humidity, but after a few years of weeping windows and mildew formation, I was ready for heavy-handed. Other people do make do with the bathroom fan vent solution, or the booster fan, but ... to me ... I think the real "once and for all" solution is the HRV.

[Delphinus]

We installed central AC this summer and I've noticed less humidity on my 90G which is located on the main floor. Do you think that a large tank placed in the basement combined with AC will be good enough to keep the humidity in check?

In the summer, yes absolutely. But in the winter, not really, because you probably won't be running it in the winter. ;) It's actually the winter where it's more of a problem because of the walls and windows being cooler, the water condenses onto them because of the cooler surface.


So if I decide to go with an HRV unit..how much can I expect to pay??


Roughly the same as central air. :neutral: Maybe a little less. If you're handy you can do it yourself (Home Depot sells HRV's - I didn't know this until after I had mine installed). It's just basically a box with 4 holes in it. Two go to the outside (so you have cut vent holes, like for a dryer), one is the ingoing and one is the outgoing - and the other two go inside (again, one is the ingoing and one is the outgoing). You can either bring these to your tank room, or just some central spot in your basement (well.. not next to each other obviously, otherwise you just vent that one spot :) ), or, you can have the venting go to your tankroom AND cut into your main furnace lines so that the whole house can get some recirculation happening. I think if you do this you may need to get some interlock happening so that the furnace fan turns on when the HRV is doing its thing. If you just vent the room then you wouldn't need this. But I figure if you're going in for a penny you might as well go in for a pound. I wouldn't know how to do the interlock myself but on the other hand it's probably not that bad to figure out.

I used these guys: http://airproheatingairconditio.supersites.ca/door/
They came recommended to me by another Canreefer (Monza), I think they've done a few other installations for Canreefers. At any rate, they know ALL about aquariums and humidity, they seem to have done a few jobs for guys with big tanks. I was very happy with them in the end. Might not have been the cheapest but they did, what I felt, was a proper analysis of the situation. (I had two other places do estimates.. one guy just told me a number over the phone, another guy came to my house, looked in the front door, and THEN came up with a number. I really needed something more than a WAG because I had a specific problem that needed to be fixed - I was not about to plunk down $1500 or whatever and then discover that I still had that problem. But what AirPro did was produce a whole document that explained how the product was going to solve the problem, what sizing of unit was needed, and so on - so I had a degree of confidence that this wasn't just a silly thing to do, it was going to fix the problem, and if not, I had some recourse available to me.)

[ClubReef]

Thanks Tony.

Does your HRV run 24/7 or is it on some type of humidity control?

[Doug]

It usually runs 24/7 in the winter, spring & fall. Summer operation would be optional, as the outside air is very humid and the CA, dries the inside air.

It runs on a low speed and can be bumped to high by a humidity control sensor or timed switches placed in bathrooms.

[Reefer Rob]

Our climate on the west coast is a lot warmer (and wetter) in the winter, so this may not work for you. I just have an in line fan that exhausts air from my canopy to the outside. I wired in a 3 speed switch in line, and low speed works great in winter. Even with the fan on the aquarium still provides most of the heat for my house, my furnace rarely comes on except during cold snaps (we keep our house at 18 C).

[Delphinus]

Mine is on a dehumidistat which is set on the wall on what will be my tank room (currently just a random wall in the basement). It also has an manual switch upstairs to run it on a timer (eg. 20 minutes or 40 minutes - kind of nice if you, say for example, cook something stinky like bacon - takes care of that lickedy-split). It's never technically on "24/7" - on continuous mode it's on for 20 and off for 40, and shuts off if the humidity is lower than the dehumidistat setting.

I shut it off in the summer, set the humidity setting to zero and turn the fan off and just let the A/C take care of business.

Thanks Tony.

Does your HRV run 24/7 or is it on some type of humidity control?

[fkshiu]

I had an ultra-quiet Panasonic bathroom fan installed above my 150g system in my basement. Simple and works great on a programmable timer.

I don't know about the "drawing air out and not replacing it" theory - if that were true houses would be imploding on a regular basis from the vacuum created everytime someone took a huge dump after some Mexican food. The fact is that the air drawn out by a bathroom fan is being replaced by air from elsewhere in the house. No house is 100% airtight. If you want to be sure just pop open a window for a bit to make sure fresh air is coming in.

[Delphinus]

No, but you don't want to leak -20 or colder air into your house. You don't have to worry about that so much in Vancouver, but the rest of the country might. :mrgreen:

[Snappy]

Darryl,
I only have a med size tank, 130 gal, but have over 200 gal of water going and I don't have the same humidity problems people are talking about. Maybe it's because my house isn't new?

[Reefer Rob]

No, but you don't want to leak -20 or colder air into your house. You don't have to worry about that so much in Vancouver, but the rest of the country might. :mrgreen:

It only takes a small amount of negative pressure in your tank room or canopy to keep the moisture out of the rest of the house, a very small fan will do.

We installed an HRV system in a house we built in Campbell River, and it was great to have the air always fresh in the house, but I wouldn't do in just for an aquarium. I'm not sure you will ever recover the cost of an HRV in energy savings. This hobby already sucks back way too much cash!:redface:

[Doug]

Its a different story for the coast versus the colder province,s guys. I dont think its about cost recovery, so much as keeping humidity from the rest of your house. Most all new homes here, now have HRV units installed when built. I thought it was in the code now but could be wrong.

Tony, Not sure what you mean when mentioned they do not run 24/7. Do you not run yours on low, 24/7, in the winter?

[Delphinus]

In Calgary I'm told it's code for new homes that are R2000 to have an HRV. The problem with new homes is that they are so energy efficient that there isn't the same air turnover that older homes have.

Having said that, I had big problems in my old house too, I thought moving to a new home would solve the problem but it didn't.

Like Doug said, it's not about cost recovery - it's about mitigating energy costs of heating replaced air while solving an excessive humidity situation. Sure, like I said it was a heavy handed solution just to install it "just for an aquarium" but if you're facing getting rid of the tanks because of mildew formation, it wasn't unreasonable. And like I said (or thought I did), the benefits of having an HRV outweigh other things so it's a nice thing to have.

Doug - well it is sort of on 24/7 but it doesn't run continuously. It's on for 20 minutes, then off for 40.

Greg do you run your furnace on 24/7? Because people who do that tend to not notice humidity problems. I tried running my furnace 24/7 and it solved the problem but I had a rather unpleasant surprise when I read my next month's bill. The HRV is a way better solution for me.

[Snappy]

Greg do you run your furnace on 24/7? Because people who do that tend to not notice humidity problems. I tried running my furnace 24/7 and it solved the problem but I had a rather unpleasant surprise when I read my next month's bill. The HRV is a way better solution for me.
Nope, only in the winter

[Delphinus]

I meant, does your fan run continuous during the heating season? Anyhow, I'm glad you don't have condensation issues - consider yourself lucky. :)

[ClubReef]

I wonder if my house has some sort of venting system built in. It's approx 3yrs old. I have a switch on my main floor that says "ventilation control" and whenever it's on, the bathroom fans turn on 24/7. Is this something similar to a HRV? I don't see an HRV unit in the basement though...

[michika]

Tagging along as I'm getting ready to start my house hunt, and I am looking at an HRV.

I used a dehumidifyer in the past when my 230g was running, and it couldn't keep up. I emptied it twice a day. In the winter I wiped down the windows twice a day. Granted it didn't help that my basement tenents felt the need to keep the house at 32.

[Delphinus]

32, wow, I'd find that unbearable.

Darryl, that switch is probably a booster fan. I have one as well (although mine isn't interlocked to the bathroom fans). It will likely help with some air turnover. At any rate, it couldn't hurt. I don't know how much power those things draw so that might be something to check into before having it on for long periods of time.

Catherine, I was really skeptical at first that the HRV would solve my wet windows but boy, did it ever fix that problem. I think I only had a tiny, tiny bit of ice buildup on my front door windows (which face north) when it hit -40 last winter for a couple days. Otherwise, my windows were more dry than other houses I visited that don't even have aquariums. The only exception was when I pulled the blinds down, they seemed to trap air in behind so overnight there would be some condensation. But otherwise it really did put a stop to having to wipe down the windows.

[michika]

...yeah my tenants were...um I think the word is "special".

I've tried the dehumidifyer, and it couldn't keep up, and required constant emptying. I think the HRV is the right way for me to go, but I still need to read up and learn more about them. I'm hoping to do a rather large system, 600+g so I need to make sure it will not only meet my needs, but won't require constant servicing.

[Delphinus]

Here's some light reading - :)

http://www.oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/personal/new-homes/r-2000/standard/how-hrv-works.cfm?attr=4

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/how_your_house_works/1275121.html

http://healthandenergy.com/heat_recovery_ventilators.htm

I have a "Lifebreath" brand model (forget the exact model # offhand), there's some info on their site as well: http://www.lifebreath.com/

[Doug]

I wonder if my house has some sort of venting system built in. It's approx 3yrs old. I have a switch on my main floor that says "ventilation control" and whenever it's on, the bathroom fans turn on 24/7. Is this something similar to a HRV? I don't see an HRV unit in the basement though...

Thats sounds like a central exaust system of some kind or just a humidistat that turns on the bathroom fan. It does exaust stale humid air. My new mobile has a similar system. It even turns on the furnace fan and circulates air when the main control is engaged. I assume replacement air comes in via the fresh air vent to the furnace?

However, the problem with that system, is it exausts heat and replaces it with cold air. The HRV, helps with this problem somewhat, by passing the incoming and exaust airs through a central core.

[TheReefGuy]

I had a hummidity with my 50g reef only tank dident do much exept top off.

[ClubReef]

Well it sounds like an HRV unit is the way to go and I will be getting one of those installed.

This hobby is expensive :(

thanks everyone.

[michika]

Let us know how it goes for you.

[Mik_101]

What are the chances of having a humidity problom?

[SuperFudge]

I would love an HRV one day...

But i now have a little over 1000g of water and 2300w of halide in a small room and no humidity problems at all.
Even with some evaporative cooling in the summer.

That being said, i do turn over a huge amount of air in the room its in.
There is an 8" elicant inline on a dehumidistat, but i run it full time for the air movement.
Also pulling from the canopy is a 4" fantech inline fan and also vented outside.
There are 2-5" fresh air intake vents in the same room.

If good inlines are used there is next to no sound...both of these fans in unison still arent as loud as my bathroom fan.:)

I would guess a total of 1000 cfm is moving in the room at any given time in the summer, in the winter canopy heat is directed back into the room for heat recovery and then i rely soley on the dehumidistat for humidity removal.

I Agree with Doug, it is 100% dependant on your climate...but i think our average BC climate is ok for this scenario.


Marc.

[SuperFudge]

I probably should mention a downfall ive noticed.

The pull is so great in the room, (probably should have gone with 8-10" fresh air intakes) that it will pull through wall switches and plug outlets if the room doors are closed. while this isnt a problem, i didnt consider the plumbing for the sink....it pulls some nice smelling air from the drain on the fishroom sink...this is made worse for the fact every day i drain my skimmer in there.

Latley i open the fishroom window to let in more air and it does the trick....so it was soley becuase i didnt install large enouph fresh air intakes.

Marc.

[Doug]

Good points Marc. Achieving a balance between exaust & incoming is important, no matter which system is used.

And I totally agree on taking advantage of ones climate. If heating in winter is not such a large issue then using your system is fine. They all achieve the same thing in the end, as long as air is exchanged.

[ClubReef]

Now that I'm armed with humidity control..what other things should I concern myself with?

Is there anything you wish you would have done differently to your basement /fishroom?

I've asked the contractor to install 2 extra power circuits, a floor drain, a cold water line.

Thanks

[michika]

Storage space for dry goods, supplies, and equipment not in use. That was always the most frustrating part about our tanks. I also frequently was annoyed at having to schlep water from the basement to the first floor, but that was me being too lazy to buy a pump.

Things that I really loved, a drain in the sump in case there was a water outtage, to prevent flooding. I also loved that when we set up our 230g we arranged it so that we could do a water change just by opening valves and flipping switches. So easy, and it helped us to remain consistant with water changes etc.

[Delphinus]

If you're having a contractor do the plumbing anyhow, get a hot water line. Might as well - you'll wash your hands and stuff probably at the sink anyhow right? Also, RO/DI works better with warm water than it does with cold water. I don't know if this is true for everyone but in the winter my coldwater comes in at only a few degrees above freezing - well - maybe 8 to 10 degrees - that is, as they say, DANG cold and it does impact how much throughput you can get out out of your RO/DI.

If you're doing a whole room anyhow, I'd get way more than just 2 power circuits. I've considered putting a whole subpanel in the room but I haven't decided if I'll do that. But 2, you'll load those up in no time IMO. I'd go 4-6 or maybe even 8 or 10. What the heck, you don't have to use them if you don't need them but it will be nice to have them available "just in case."

[Doug]

I've asked the contractor to install 2 extra power circuits, a floor drain, a cold water line.
Thanks

You have a good handle on it with those three. I like Tony,s hot water line. As a matter of fact, I put a laundry sink in my fishroom, with hot & cold running water. My wife appreciated me staying in there cleaning stuff and not running around the house with it. :smile:

[ClubReef]

The tank will be a room divider with 3 viewable sides so I won't have a dedicated room...a sink won't be installed either (my wife already told me no :). I will have to use the sink in the washroom or the utility room.

I'll look into the hotwater line though...I might as well since the walls are bare and I might have a dedicated sink or wet bar built close to it in the future :).

Do you think 3 circuits will handle all of the power requirements? I don't want to get too overboard because at the end of the day everything will add up (they charge $130 for each circuit). 3 circuits will be 45A of power. I can see my biggest power draw will be from the MH (3 X4.5A) +Chiller (9A) ~21A

[hawk]

I have one problem in my fishroom you may or may not need to consider. Tank is 375g, total water volume around 600g. The room is pretty airtight with 2 exhaust fans and fresh air intakes. The fishroom ceiling is a drop with a lot of copper plumbing for upstairs kitchen, bath etc within it. In the fishroom I have a sink and rodi. The room can get upto 84-85 degrees. The rest of the basement stays cool. Now the problem... When the rodi is running for several hours at a time and the relative humidity is high like now, the copper run to the rodi in the drop ceiling (sealed tight from the fishroom) sweats and drips condensation. When I first noticed it I used insulating foam tubes on the pipes. This helped but not totally. What I think is happening is the area above the fishroom is warm, the cold water running through the copper meets that warmth causing the condensation. If I were to do it again I would change the copper around the fishroom to pex, which I'm told does not sweat.

[Delphinus]

Nope .. unfortunately pex sweats big time too. I have pex pipes and I get major drippage from my pipes when I run my RO/DI in the winter with that 8 degree cold water. Heck, I get in the summer too, but not nearly as bad since the water is warmer. I get it to a degree when I run sprinklers outside too.

Another reason to consider the HRV and suck that moisture laden air out of the house. :) Or get the pipes covered (ie. behind drywall) so that they're not exposed to humidity.

[michika]

Tony,

Did the HRV solve your issue with dripping pipes? Or did it just slow it down? Did you do anything else to combat dripping pipes?

Hawk,

What have you done, or plan to do, to cool down your fish room? Or are you just super brave, and just tough it out?

[Doug]

I would think the dripping pipes is more of a summer problem, which is when the HRV is not effective but central air should help. This is the first place I,ve had central air but I have no basement with pipes, so can say how it would help. At my other place w/my fishroom, the pipes did sweat somewhat in the summer but no air conditioning.

Never noticed it to much in the winter like Tony. However I had a woodstove also, besides the HRV.

[hawk]

Another reason to consider the HRV and suck that moisture laden air out of the house. :) Or get the pipes covered (ie. behind drywall) so that they're not exposed to humidity.

The pipes in the drop ceiling were covered by hardi-board as well as the fishroom being vapour barrier-ed and tight. When I first noticed the dripping I did take the board down to check things out but then put the plastic back-up. Didn't notice a difference either way. I think the humidity in the drop ceiling (which is partially open on the laundrey room side next to fishroom) is coming from the rest of the house and outside. But the heat is coming from the fishroom. I only notice the drips when it is hot/humid outside. Too bad about pex dripping too. I am considering hrv for better household air quality, but it can be 30c here with heavy rain so the humidity can get very high. That along with the basement staying cool (except fishroom) I don't know if the hrv is going to do much in my case. I would just be exchanging cool basement air for hot humid outdoor air. Could be wrong, I'll have to check into it further. The fishroom is 11'x9', I wonder if a cheap window ac just to cool the small room would solve the sweating pipes? Any other suggestions?

[Snappy]

I never had a humidity problem before, but now since I added another 50 gal of open water and another 250 watt light 2 weeks ago, together with the heatwave we are having it has gotten really bad. I have now put fans in the basement windows to blow out as much of the wet air as I can, but yikes it is worse than I ever imagined. I think this thread put a curse on me.:razz:

[Delphinus]

Doh! Sorry Greg! ;)

Michika - I haven't noticed the pipes dripping in a long time. Mind you right now that it's summer I have the A/C on which might be having an effect.

Hawk, yeah I see what you mean, HRV only helps if the air you're replacing the inside air with, is less humid. :neutral: Maybe an A/C would work better like you suggest?