Just about had it now!!!

[findingnemo1]

Okay i need some advice before i just pack it in.

I have a 90 gallon that is the downgrade of the 120. I have always had a nitrate problem. So in order to fix that i have sone weekly water changes. Cut down on the food. Downgraded my fish load. But i still frickin have them. I have a Montipora confusa that is sadly pretty much toast. All the flesh is receding from the top. And a birdsnest that is showing skeleton. And have lost a few more in the last month.
Oddly enough the acroporas are all healthy and thriving.

Here is my system in a nut shell:
90 Gallon
40Gallon Sump
Euro reef rs250 skimmer
2-400 watt halides.
2 of the biggest seio pumps
1 of the medium seio( sorry can't remember there size numbers right now)
Ball of cheato in the sump
2 phosban reactors running carbon and phosban
window fan keeping temp at 80 with halides on
Tests are as follows

Calcium 400
Alk 9
Ntrite 0
ph 8.2
Nitrate 60

So here were my thoughts. Before i just give up in general by flushing my money away:)

Either
A: a diy denitrator
B: Zeovite
C: A refugium tank set up beside the tank somehow feeding water back and forth
D: Reefresh
E: All or a combination of the above or
F: GIve up and sell it all..lol

Suggestions?

Thanks Craig

[Jason McK]

Is the Cheato in the sump have a light on it? is it growing and if so are you triming it?
Have you tested your source water for Nitrates?

what is your current fish load?

Sorry for all the questions but it will help everyone help you

J

[Reefer Rob]

You don't say how old your system is or what your bioload is. With a system like your's your shouldn't have nitrates. Are your rocks arranged nice and loose so water can flow around them well? Do you have sand that isn't vacuumed regularly? Areas of detritus collection? Lots of flow around your Chaeto?

[Delphinus]

How many lbs of rock do you have?

Are you using RO/DI or tap water?

[Scavenger]

Have you checked your source water for nitrates? Also checking your mixed water before adding might be an idea. Perhaps you have a contaminated bucket of salt. At the very least it would remove any doubt about what's going into the tank water wise.

[danny zubot]

What kind of test kit are you using?

[findingnemo1]

Okay will try and get all the questions answered:

There is a light on the cheato. The current fish load is 1 small regal angel,1 potters,1 flagfin and no none of them nip i have watched them regularily. 1 6line,1 royal gramma and a a 6line.
I have tested the water and nitrates in the source.

System is 4months old in this tank and was 18months old in the other. Everything was moved including water to the new tank.

I wouldn't say the rocks are tight. There are lots of little swim throughs so no i wouldn't say tight.I wonder about the sand. Don't see anything visible on it but maybe it is there and i am just not seeing it.

There is about 130 pounds of rock and yep i use ro/di. Although i think it could use to be changed now.

Never thought about the salt being contaminated though. I will test that when i get home from work.

I use salifert. They are all good for expiry wise. I have also checked it against another kit i have and they are looking about the same.

I have always wondered how people say they have no nitrates. I have always had them even when i had the softies tank. I was hoping when i transffered it all over and cut down on the fish it would help. As i had tangs in the big tank which i had thought was adding to the waste problem.

Just frustrated

[PoonTang]

when you moved the tank did you rinse out the sand or just dump it in? how deep is the sand?

[Zylumn]

It looks and sounds like you are maintaining your tank very well. Your nitrates should Max at 5 to 10. You mentioned in an earlier post having problems with your skimmer. Has that been resolved?? and how much skim mate are you getting per day/week?? Do you have snails, crabs, fish MIA??? What are your readings for Ammonia could be a small cycle from the move??
In the few short dealings I have had with you two I see a strong passion for the hobby. Your Nitrate problem will be resolved Hang in there.
Kevin

[Chin_Lee]

Are you seriously considering packing it in because of a nitrate problem? Although its not desirable, its not lethal to most of our livestock. I believe some LPS or softies may even thrive with some nitrates.

[fkshiu]

My guess is also crud stuck in the LR and/or sand. Either that or it's your source water if you're not using RO/DI.

And Chin is correct - focusing on softies/LPS won't be the end of the world.

[Delphinus]

Honestly, I can see where he is coming from. I have a tank that has a persistent, inexplicable nitrate problem, and it is frustrating. I even run a sulfur reactor on this tank and due to problem after problem with the reactor it has yet to put a dent in the nitrates. Water changes can only go so far, short of doing a 100% water change you only put a dent into the levels and even then when they bounce right back up within a week, you're left scratching your head. I am pretty close to tearing the tank down because of this problem. So I understand perfectly where his frustration is coming from. 60ppm NO3 is up there.

I've got one more question - well two actually. Do you have sand in this tank, and would you consider switching to barebottom? Because I'm starting to wonder that part of my problem on my tank is the fact that I have sand. 110g tank, 60lbs of aragonite sand in the main display, plus a remote DSB with another 60lbs of aragonite. In fact ... I'm not sure but I think I really started with the nitrate problem after the RDSB got moved over from a different tank (that also had nitrate problems - but then that tank also had my ritteri in it, which is another thing the two tanks have in common). The RDSB never did a thing to reduce nitrates and now I wonder if that's actually part of my current problem. Calfo whoo ding ding you rock!

[findingnemo1]

The frustration and coming to an end is the fact that i wanted sps. I have spent alot of money on them and they are all just dying. The softies were fine with the higher nitrates.

The skimmer i did figure out. I have gotten about 1/2 a cup in a couple days. So that is doing its job.The last straw was hte confusa that we got. It was great(Snappy can comment on that one...lol) And slowly it lost all its colour and now it is receding from top down.And thats how they have all gone. But yet the acroporas are all coloured up and pretty:question:

The sand was rinsed and rinsed and rinsed some more. And it is only about 2 inches. Not nearly as deep as the one we used to have.Have tested the ammonia about a week ago and there was nothing.

And Delphinus is right. You just get sick of the water changes and still can' get it to drop. When it seems like everything you do is right and this is what happens. I was going to add the denitrator but from the sounds of it that doesn't work either. As the same with the deep sand bed...

Beats me. Just sucks to watch all the corals die and there seems to be nothing you can do about it.

[kooma]

I am no expert that's for sure... but I fixed my Nitrate problem with two simple things.

1) I threw out my existing food(s) (everything, flakes, pellets, seaweed, etc) and remaining bucket of salt that I used for water changes.

2) I replaced with new top of the line products recommended in various threads for no nitrate, phosphates etc. My personal choices were:
- Ocean Nutrition for the food
- Red Sea Coral Pro Salt
- Coral Frenzy for the corals

I cut back feedings to every 3rd day and 25% water changes every week. I did not add anything to the water other then a bit of food and the new water for changes.


I might have just got luckly but I was at zero nitrates within 3 weeks and have been there since March 2007.


I'm guessing my problem was old food and old salt......


Well that's my 2 cents for what it's worth.

[Delphinus]

I wouldn't pass on the idea of a denitrator even though I have problems with mine. The theory is sound, it should work. My problems come from that I'm trying to adapt something that wasn't really designed to be a sulfur reactor. It was drawing in air at one point which killed off the anaerobic bacteria, it has a bad flange that leaks under the slightest bit of pressure, etc.

Another idea is to try a coil denitrator - it will cost you about $20 in parts so it really wouldn't hurt just to try it and see where things go. Albert has some in his store, so you can ask him to show you one maybe. There's also a thread on Canreef where "howdy20012002" documented the build process.

Probably what happens is the nitrates just get bound in the rock and sand ... until you have a mechanism that proactively reduces nitrates it will likely be a problem that persists for a while.

Hearing advice from me, while I'm suffering the same problem, might be a bit of a "pot calling the kettle black" so - forgive me if this does seem odd, but here are some suggestions I can come up with. Whether they're good or not .. well .. who knows.. but, these are the things I'm considering:

- denitrator (as discussed)

- remove the sand (sell anything that requires sand - conches, etc.)

- consider swapping out some rock and replacing with new. Sell off part of your rock, or put it in a rubbermaid with some SW and a heater and a powerhead and let it sit there for a few months. (This is called "cooking" your rock - it's supposed to be a good way to rejuvenate rock which may be "haggard" - which - yours and mine - with levels like these, probably is the case).

- Zeovit is supposed to reduce nitrate and phosphates. If you're considering trying this anyhow, maybe this is a good opportunity to put the method to the test and see how it measures out.

- Set up a refugium and actively grow/prone macros. Chaeto, caulerpa, you name it. Get a bright light so it grows fast and start sucking up those nutrients.

There's definitely something askew here, it's just a question of finding it and correcting it. It definitely IS possible to have a tank with nitrates <10, most people don't seem to have to deal with a problem of this magnitude, so it's just a question of finding the right groove. We can beat this!!

[trilinearmipmap]

I had some nitrate problems due to overfeeding, the nitrates were about 5 to 10 range, this was earlier this year.

I started adding sugar, went to barely detectable nitrates on the Salifert test, accompanied by much improved skimmate production.

My understanding of how sugar works is bacteria feed on the sugar, the bacterial population locks up nitrates and phosphates, then the bacteria get skimmed out by the skimmer.

I started adding 1/8 or 1/4 tsp of sugar daily in a 120 gallon (I forget which) and gradually increased it to 3/4 tsp daily. Lately I have slacked off and just add 1 tsp every few days when I remember.

Adding sugar is easy and worth trying. I saw no bad effects on my corals though I suggest starting slow and gradually adjusting the sugar dose.

[Reefer Rob]

I'm going to out on a limb here and say I think it's your sand. In my 180G that's been running since January I've gone to 1" of sand for aesthetics that I gravel vac once a month or so. Looking back, the only thing sand has ever done in my tanks is increase nitrates. The more sand I had, the more nitrates I had.

In my last tank I run an remote DSB and had 20 ppm nitrates. After I took it off-line they went to 10 ppm within a week.

With 2"s of sand you would be safe to suck out 1" and gravel vac the rest. Guaranteed you're going to get a ton of crud out of there

[bv_reefer]

-did u try siphoning out some of the detritus on ur sand bed or detritus and waste under live rock crevices? fish tend 2 spill uneaten food,spill it,drop it, and disturb it all the time.

-another common tip i've heard iz arranging a loose formation system
for ur live rock but it looks like u alredy got that down!

-well anyways don't let nitrates spoil ur hobby! u've already got soo far!

[midgetwaiter]

I'd take a look at the sand for sure. The sand bed debate is up there with politics and religion but I don't think anyone can argue that there are people out there with sand beds and nitrate problems, For some reason nobody can figure the beds aren't working right and are probably contributing to issuesby trapping crud.

The other thing to look at is the fuge, what kind of growth are you getting in there? From my experience a cheato fuge that is really working well is the best nitrate / phosphate removal tool there is. To get it really working you need to put a little work into it though. A good goal would be having good enough growth that you can remove half your cheato and have it replenish in 10 to 14 days. To do that you need some good lighting, Philip's Daylight CFs work good with reflectors, and you MUST dose iron.

[andresont]

I second the idea of sand being a trap for detritus. Just get rid of a little bit every time you do a water change.
I 've gone BB and my ORP went up 60 points in one week. That tells me that sand bed takes a lot of oxygen. Also with BB it is so easy to syphone all out when doing water change so staff has no chance to decay.

[PoonTang]

Also try testing your carbon for nitrates. Aparently some types of carbon can contain nitrate and release it into the water.

[findingnemo1]

Okay we'll thanks everybody for the input. I am going to start taking the sand bed out slowly. And then i am going to see how that works and if not i think i will try the denitrator and see if that works. Hopefully that will work and that will be the end of it. If not i dunno. My confusa is pretty mush gone but the acroporas still look okay so i guess we will see what happens. If not i will just give up on sps and go with softies:)

Thanks again
Craig

I wil keep it updated anyways