Contemplating a Skimmerless Tank

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Check this (http://haaga.aqua-web.org/) out. Tell me what you think. Discuss...why would this work and why wouldn't it?

[krisalexander]

It is hard to say it wouldnt work when u see that tank!! I think it would only be feasbile with a great deal of time and planning. Once it was up and running it would have to be a well monitored tank. I have never thought of it but it would be a good challenge

Kris

[Delphinus]

He has a lot of caulerpa type algaes growing in that refugium, which is, I suspect, a large part of the reason he's having success, because they're sucking up the nutrients that might otherwise accumulate. Honestly that is a nice tank. I wouldn't say that a skimmer is unnecessary though, but obviously whatever works for someone, works. I like having skimmers, I think they are beneficial, although I agree that as long as nutrient buildup is not a concern then the actual quantification of "necessity" is probably less.

Basically I judge my need for a skimmer by looking at what it pulls out. That brown gunk would be in my tank water if I didn't have a skimmer.. it must be doing SOMEthing good, even if I can't say exactly how much good it's doing.

[michika]

I think its feasible. Like Delphinus said, he does probably have a lot of macro algaes to export some of the nutrients. I also think the 120L weekly water changes help as well. I think the combination of the macro algae, water changes, and the carbon he is running, that helps keep his tank so lovely.

I wonder if he siphons the sand, and what kind of other maintenance is carried out monthly on the system. I bet that information would fill in a few more blanks.

Didn't Beverly run her tanks skimmerless?

[Chowder]

He also says he uses Zeovit which is a biological filtration that helps creates very low nutrient levels in water.

[Delphinus]

Actually .. now maybe I read it wrong, but I got the impression that he "tried" Zeovit but that this current setup is not using Zeo.

[Scavenger]

Here is another example of a successful skimmerless tank.
Second row 1st video on left. (Andre's Tank I beleive)
http://www.reefvideos.com/

[marie]

I removed my skimmer last week.
It was only putting out about a cup of skimmate a week anyway and now I have a thriving refugium I decided it's time :biggrin:

[seashells]

29g oceanic. No skimmer 1 1/2" live sand 30-40 lbs live rock & rubble. Replaced bioballs with rubble, use that cheap fiber on top of the rubble & replace it 1 or 2 times a week. LARGE (really big) RBTA, gold striped maroon clown, cherub angel, dartfish, green clown goby, yellow watchman goby, 2 cleaner shrimp, assorted snails. Cheato stuffed in behind rock work. Stays clear & readings are good. Plenty of pods, worms etc. zoos, mushrooms, xenia
open brain & colt corals. Water changes every 2 weeks. Its working for now.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

This was my old 35g skimmerless hex tank. Everybody seemed to think it was my best tank.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/SeaHorse_Fanatic/Hextank.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/SeaHorse_Fanatic/DSCN8666.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/SeaHorse_Fanatic/Pipefish.jpg

Anthony

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Very nice, Anthony! What did you do to maintain it? And Marie, how is yours doing?

So I've been skimmerless for a few weeks now. My observations so far: the film on the glass seems to accumulate more quickly, but is not out of control. No reoccurences of nuisance algae otherwise.

The polyp extension is insane. All of my corals are fuller and bigger than I've ever seen them. In particular, the bubble coral, short-tentacle plate, frogspawn and mushrooms.

[marie]

I discovered I am emotionaly attached to my skimmer and started it back up again:lol: .
I did a water change the other night after changing the filters on my RO unit and immediately after the water change all the polyps on the corals withdrew, so in a panic I replaced the carbon and turned the skimmer back on. Everything is fine, it appears to be just a minor blip but I feel better leaving the skimmer where it is.
For the 2 weeks it was turned off I didn't notice any big changes

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Over 2 months skimmerless now and haven't noticed any adverse affects! Corals are still showing amazing polyp extension and fish are happy! Same amount of green film on the glass as before.

Of course, I don't have any SPS (except for a green monti cap which is growing and doing alright as well).

:mrgreen:

[albert_dao]

I would only consider this only for mature systems with lots of biological transport methods.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

What do you consider a mature system?

[albert_dao]

In the most literal sense? Hmm, I'd say one that can keep a Powder Blue Tang, or something of equivalent difficulty (Regal Angel, Anthias, SPS, Clams, that kinda stuff) alive without a huge amount of user intervention, all matters taken into account (size of tank, style of tank, etc).

Also, a tank that can hold its own against problem algaes gets a vote in my book.

[Carrera75]

I have been running my tank without a skimmer for almost 9 months. There was some Red Turf algae growing but that algae came on a piece of liverock that I bought. The algae went away after I used Chemiclean and never came back. All I have is a heater, powerhead in the tank.

I do weekly water changes and feed the fish very little. All my fish and corals have been doing very well.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/Tank3-1.jpg

[michika]

I have been running my tank without a skimmer for almost 9 months. There was some Red Turf algae growing but that algae came on a piece of liverock that I bought. The algae went away after I used Chemiclean and never came back. All I have is a heater, powerhead in the tank.

I do weekly water changes and feed the fish very little. All my fish and corals have been doing very well.

I think your system looks really good!
How old is your system? Do you use any additives?
Did you run a skimmer before, or have you always run skimmerless? Any differences that you saw in the beginning, or later on, assuming you ran a skimmer at one point?
What kind of growth do you see in your system?

[Carrera75]

I think your system looks really good!
How old is your system? Do you use any additives?
Did you run a skimmer before, or have you always run skimmerless? Any differences that you saw in the beginning, or later on, assuming you ran a skimmer at one point?
What kind of growth do you see in your system?

Thanks for your positive comments.
I have never used a skimmer. The first tank I set up was a 29 gallon in December 2006. Then I decided that I wanted a bigger tank and upgraded to a 50 gallon.

Both tanks have been running without a skimmer since day 1. The tank get some Diatoms but I believe this is the result of using tap water. Yes, you are reading well. I have used tap water since day one and so far no problems. I use IO salt and don't add any additives, just do weekly water changes. I have been thinking about buying a Deltec 600 (skimmer) just in case it is needed.

Here the tank specs:

50 gallon tank
2X150 HQI + 2X39 T5
1 Hydor Koralia #2
100 watt heater

That's all the equipment that I have been using since I set up this tank.
Let me know if you have any more questions.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

yvr...nice! I see it's full of LPS and Soft corals, as is mine. My system is 13 months old and I've been skimmerless for two, like I said before. My corals have looked much better since I took the skimmer out.

The only thing I add is Kent Turbo Calcium and Kent Superbuffer dKH. I feed nightly and use RO store bought water.

I'll try to get a pic sometime soon, too :)

[Carrera75]

yvr...nice! I see it's full of LPS and Soft corals, as is mine. My system is 13 months old and I've been skimmerless for two, like I said before. My corals have looked much better since I took the skimmer out.

The only thing I add is Kent Turbo Calcium and Kent Superbuffer dKH. I feed nightly and use RO store bought water.

I'll try to get a pic sometime soon, too :)

Thanks man, when the pic I posted was taken the corals were not fully open-expanded yet. I am pretty sure that a reef tank without all the high tech expensive equpment can be done as long as water changes are done weekly and the fish are fed very litte among other simple things. A few Canreef members have come over to my apt to pick up corals and they can't believe that my tank only has a heater and 1 Koralia poewr head as equipment. Lately , I have been thinking about using RO water to help get rid of the Diatmos (excess of silcate). Other than the Diatoms, my tank has been algae free. I'll try to take some more pics later of all the corals.

I would really like to see pics of your skimerless tank!

[michika]

I'd love to see a photo too!

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I'm way too nervous, with all these amazing tanks, to post my own FTS! But...I decided to plunk my skimmer back in and see what happened, after about 4 months skimmerless:

1 hour later...
http://x49.xanga.com/d07d864a20430149191270/m110981149.jpg

3 hours later...
http://xf8.xanga.com/1f4c0b4217532149191288/m110981166.jpg

Wow. Nasty. I think I might leave it in for a while :D

Or maybe forever.

...and maybe I should clean my wall...hah.

[Carrera75]

I'm way too nervous, with all these amazing tanks, to post my own FTS! But...I decided to plunk my skimmer back in and see what happened, after about 4 months skimmerless:

1 hour later...
http://x49.xanga.com/d07d864a20430149191270/m110981149.jpg

3 hours later...
http://xf8.xanga.com/1f4c0b4217532149191288/m110981166.jpg

Wow. Nasty. I think I might leave it in for a while :D

Or maybe forever.

...and maybe I should clean my wall...hah.



Hi there

Well, my tank has been skimerless for a year now. I have had very very few problems with my tank. Never had any algae problems and all my corals-fish are doing very well. Here are some pics that I took yesterday.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/Tank-.jpg

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/Tank2-2.jpg

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/Tank1-2.jpg

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/side-r.jpg

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/side.jpg

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/Tank-1.jpg

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I agree, your tank looks awesome!! To be honest, I saw several of my corals decline over a period of 3-4 weeks, and I couldn't pinpoint the reason. I think it was simply too nutrient-rich an environment. In particular, my open brain, frogspawn and torch corals were retracted more than usual. When I skimmed for a day, they were fully open, etc.

[fragalot]

I saw lots of tanks run without skimmer But honestly i wouldnt run a tank without skimmer.
IMO
Without skimmer: Less feeding=slow growth, less live stock, more live rock, sandbed and macroalgea, more water changes, Have to keep hardy corals. This list can go all day
Worth it? I dont think so.

[Carrera75]

I saw lots of tanks run without skimmer But honestly i wouldnt run a tank without skimmer.
IMO
Without skimmer: Less feeding=slow growth, less live stock, more live rock, sandbed and macroalgea, more water changes, Have to keep hardy corals. This list can go all day
Worth it? I dont think so.

well buddy, my tank has been running for a year skimerless. My tank has never had any algae problems. All I have in the tank is 1 Koralia powerhead and heater, yes ...that's all I have. I do biweekly water changes and so far everything has been doing very very well.

There are some guys that have very expensive hig-tech equipment and they still have algae problems. Am not saying that what I do will work for everyone but why change what I have been so far when my tank looks healtier and nicer than some other tanks that have very expensive skimmer, phosban reactor, calcium reactor and the list goes on.

Cheers

[fragalot]

Well Buddy,
All your corals can handle almost all water parameters. So it doesnt matter what you have or not have they will survive. Once you have high demand coral in your tank you will understand why you need those " High-tech " products.
I saw a tank 55g with 10 big fishes in it and lots of corals (hardy ones) with no skimmer, no fuge etc.. They are "surviving" with no algea, clear water, good parameters. But question is how long it will go like that?

But its your choice how you run your tank, what you give to animals under your responsibility. I just told my opinion. Dont take it too hard.

I didnt say change it. If you are happy, keep it same way. I wont gain anything if i suggest you a skimmer or not the suggest.

[Carrera75]

Well Buddy,
All your corals can handle almost all water parameters. So it doesnt matter what you have or not have they will survive. Once you have high demand coral in your tank you will understand why you need those " High-tech " products.
I saw a tank 55g with 10 big fishes in it and lots of corals (hardy ones) with no skimmer, no fuge etc.. They are "surviving" with no algea, clear water, good parameters. But question is how long it will go like that?

But its your choice how you run your tank, what you give to animals under your responsibility. I just told my opinion. Dont take it too hard.

I didnt say change it. If you are happy, keep it same way. I wont gain anything if i suggest you a skimmer or not the suggest.

Hi there

Am not upset at all, I just wanted to say that this has been working for me so far and I don't see the need to change what I do. All my corals have grown but am not going to deny that thier growth is slow and that's probably because I feed very little.

There are some reefers that use very high-tech equipment and they still run into problems. My tank has been algae free since day 1 and can't say that for some of the tanks with hig-tech equipment I have seen here on Canreef. I am aware that you didn't suggest me to change the way I run my tank. All am saying is that different things work for different people.

You mentioned that you saw a 55 gallon with 10 big fish and no skimmer. My tank only has 6 fish and they all are fairly small. Am not interested in having big fish or the very delicate and demanding SPS Corals, personally I think they are ugly but again that's my opinion.


Cheers

[fragalot]

Hi,

Can tank run without a skimmer? Of course. With well knowladge, lightly loaded, lightly feeding, lots of biological filtration and keep close eye on your tank. It can be done very well. But if tanks biological filtration overloaded it will fail then your tank will start having problems. This point skimmer starts to work.
If big fish dies in your tank without your knowladge it will cause lots of problems. Skimmer helps to clear that mess up before it damages more.

So it has positive points ;)

But again its my opinion ;)

Burc

[Carrera75]

Hi,

Can tank run without a skimmer? Of course. With well knowladge, lightly loaded, lightly feeding, lots of biological filtration and keep close eye on your tank. It can be done very well. But if tanks biological filtration overloaded it will fail then your tank will start having problems. This point skimmer starts to work.
If big fish dies in your tank without your knowladge it will cause lots of problems. Skimmer helps to clear that mess up before it damages more.

So it has positive points ;)

But again its my opinion ;)

Burc

Hi Burc

I totally agree with you! :biggrin: Having a nice skimmer is nice for sure and at some point I thought about getting one. But since my tank has been doing well I decided not to get a skimmer. I think I can get away with running my tank skimerless because am always on top of everything,,,water changes, light feeding and only have small fish.

My tank is lightly loaded, feed very little and do bi-weekly water changes. I also keep a very close eye on my tank and am If i notice that a problem starts I try to fix it right away. If something dies in my tank the snails and crabs take care of it but I have been lucky having no casualties in a long long time. I only lost 2 Clown fish when I first set up my tank and I think they died because they were sick.

By the way, I want to say that you have some amazing looking corals and I might buy some nice Ricordeas from you in the near future.:biggrin:

Cheers
Daniel

[albert_dao]

My main contention with this whole arguement is that newbies will read into trends like this and disregard the value of having a skimmer.

[Delphinus]

I'm with Albert on this one.

If a system works for you then it works for you. :) That's good, but to then point at a system that might be having an issue and start blaming the "high tech equipment" is a bit of a flaw in logic. You don't know what the problem is in that case. Removing the skimmer from a tank like that isn't going to solve anything. :)

The bottom line, a good skimmer does add value to a system. I, for one, could not keep some of the fish that I have, and also have a tank with a balanced nutrient load, without the skimmer that I do have. It works for me. I'm not saying run out and buy a skimmer because everyone else has one, because that's the wrong reasoning. The reasoning should be about understanding the purpose of a piece of equipment, and running it to acheive a specific goal. If your goal is being acheived without it, then by all means you don't need it. But that may not work for everyone. So the risk is that people may drawn incomplete or incorrect conclusions.

[fragalot]

By the way, I want to say that you have some amazing looking corals and I might buy some nice Ricordeas from you in the near future.:biggrin:

Cheers
Daniel

Thank you Daniel. Having a skimmer is a must for my opinion.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I don't think it's a MUST. For example: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=893433

It just depends on what you want to keep.

[Carrera75]

I'm with Albert on this one.

If a system works for you then it works for you. :) That's good, but to then point at a system that might be having an issue and start blaming the "high tech equipment" is a bit of a flaw in logic. You don't know what the problem is in that case. Removing the skimmer from a tank like that isn't going to solve anything. :)

The bottom line, a good skimmer does add value to a system. I, for one, could not keep some of the fish that I have, and also have a tank with a balanced nutrient load, without the skimmer that I do have. It works for me. I'm not saying run out and buy a skimmer because everyone else has one, because that's the wrong reasoning. The reasoning should be about understanding the purpose of a piece of equipment, and running it to acheive a specific goal. If your goal is being acheived without it, then by all means you don't need it. But that may not work for everyone. So the risk is that people may drawn incomplete or incorrect conclusions.

Never said that the skimmer or hich-tech equipment was to blame for the algae, and have never said that their problems would go away as soon as they got rid of their skimmer or high-tech equipment. What I meant is that nobody should say that a skimmer is a must because my tank and other tanks are the proof that it can be done without a skimmer. Even when a reefer has all the expensive high-tech toys there is no guarantee that his tank will be amazing and beautiful.

If you read my posts well again, I also said that a skimmerless tank has been working for me so far but I also said that it does not mean that it will work for everyone. Different things work for different people.......I have never denied that a skimmer can be very handy to have but I also believe that if one stocks lightly, feed little and religiously does water changes among other things then a skimerless tank is possible.

You are right that for some set ups a skimmer is a must but not for mine and that's why I stated that IT WORKS FOR ME BUT IT MIGHT NOT WORK FOR SOMEBODY ELSE. It all depends on your set up and needs. I remember Seahorsefanatic mentioned a while ago on this site that he ran a skimerless tank for a long time and that most people thought that this skimerless tank is the most beautiful set up he has ever had.

Again, am not trying to mislead people and I apologize if I have done that. But I will firmly support that a skimerless tank can be done with success.
Cheers
Daniel

[Carrera75]

I don't think it's a MUST. For example: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=893433

It just depends on what you want to keep.


Thanks for posting that link showing that amazing looking SKIMERLESS tank. I'll have to read this thread wheh I get some time. It seems that this guy has also kept a very beautiful set up without the need of a skimmer.

Cheers
Daniel

[marie]

Here is an interesting thread for those interested in going skimmerless.

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic71360-9-1.aspx

[marie]

A picture of one of the skimmerless tanks from the link I just posted. It's Eric Bornemans tank
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Attachment1776.aspx

[bv_reefer]

my skimmers been off for a week, and already it seems my corals are feeding for longer periods of time and water looks excellent, xenia especially loves it.
however i'm still al little nervous about going skimmerless as i plan to have a mixed reef, so even with frequent water changes i can't imagine the sps would take the whole skimmerless scenario too lightly.

[fragalot]

Hi,

Can tank run without a skimmer? Of course. With well knowladge, lightly loaded, lightly feeding, lots of biological filtration and keep close eye on your tank. It can be done very well.

But if we keep this topic under like " Skimmerless is better " Its not going to help new hobbiest with very limited knowladge.
So please dont forget what we are talking about. Skimmer covers alots of new hobbiest mistakes.

[Delphinus]

Well, MY point is (and always was if you "read my posts carefully" see? two can play at this game :p ) is that skimmerless is certainly an option, because it's not about what equipment you have, but what your nutrient import/export balance is all about. It's a simple producer/consumer scenario. If less goes in, there's less to accumulate. If more goes in, you need to take more out. The goal is equilibrium. A skimmer is but one tool in the arsenal for this goal. There are several others.

I'm sorry but I guess what bothering me here is that over the years I've heard this argument again and again where someone takes a stand and seems to implicate that we should all throw our skimmers away "because they don't use it, and they have success." To turn things around on you a bit, it's the same thing as saying "Because *I* use a skimmer and have success, everyone who doesn't have one should go out and buy one" and that's the very sentiment to which you seem to be objecting. ;) Never at once disputed success isn't possible, but MY point is that there is value in a properly tuned, good design skimmer.

(True, there are plenty of skimmers out there that may as well not be running for all the good that they do. So there may be some instances where indeed there's no difference to the system whether the skimmer is there or not.)

There was another user on Canreef a few years ago who used to argue this point as well, but what was never advertised was that his tanks were never more than a year old AND he used things like chemical resins. Show me a tank that has run skimmerless for 5 years or more without any kind of overhaul, without any new rock, and without any incident of nutrient buildup, and suddenly the playing field changes a little. Not saying it's not done, it most certainly IS done, but these people have a tank maintenance regime that very likely compensates for the function that a skimmer would otherwise provide.

Ultimately, like with any tool, it serves a function, but of course you should only use that tool if the function it provides is something you beleive has value to you. This applies to anything, be it skimmers, UV, halides, .. whatever.

Peace out. :)

[fragalot]

It cant be said better Tony.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Show me a tank that has run skimmerless for 5 years or more without any kind of overhaul, without any new rock, and without any incident of nutrient buildup, and suddenly the playing field changes a little.

Beverly? :)

[Der_Iron_Chef]

On a side note, I think it's interesting that all this broo-ha-ha came up when I mentioned putting my skimmer BACK on! He he. Ahh, I've never met a more passionate bunch.

Except for, maybe, the Buffy the Vampire Slayer crowd.

[Delphinus]

Mmmm. Buffy....

Bevery had some nice tanks, although (not to belabour the point) I don't think any one of them did make it to 5 years. But, be that as it may, I don't think I know of anyone who was more anal about her weekly tank vaccuuming and water changes. She was right on top of that sort of thing. So I think she falls under the category of a "tank maintenance regime that compensates." :)

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Buffy would never use a skimmer.





:D

[Delphinus]

Buffy didn't have much of a nutrient buildup problem though.




(Zing!!!!) :mrgreen:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Damn you, Tony! Always with the witty comeback...:redface:

[Delphinus]

Yeah, but in person it's more like this:

Homer(/Tony): I believe we were talking of the land of chocolate? (I believe we were talking of Buffy?)
Germans: Zat vas ten minutes ago!!!

[Doug]

Well, MY point is (and always was if you "read my posts carefully" see? two can play at this game :p ) is that skimmerless is certainly an option, because it's not about what equipment you have, but what your nutrient import/export balance is all about. It's a simple producer/consumer scenario. If less goes in, there's less to accumulate. If more goes in, you need to take more out. The goal is equilibrium. A skimmer is but one tool in the arsenal for this goal. There are several others.

I'm sorry but I guess what bothering me here is that over the years I've heard this argument again and again where someone takes a stand and seems to implicate that we should all throw our skimmers away "because they don't use it, and they have success." To turn things around on you a bit, it's the same thing as saying "Because *I* use a skimmer and have success, everyone who doesn't have one should go out and buy one" and that's the very sentiment to which you seem to be objecting. ;) Never at once disputed success isn't possible, but MY point is that there is value in a properly tuned, good design skimmer.

(True, there are plenty of skimmers out there that may as well not be running for all the good that they do. So there may be some instances where indeed there's no difference to the system whether the skimmer is there or not.)

There was another user on Canreef a few years ago who used to argue this point as well, but what was never advertised was that his tanks were never more than a year old AND he used things like chemical resins. Show me a tank that has run skimmerless for 5 years or more without any kind of overhaul, without any new rock, and without any incident of nutrient buildup, and suddenly the playing field changes a little. Not saying it's not done, it most certainly IS done, but these people have a tank maintenance regime that very likely compensates for the function that a skimmer would otherwise provide.

Ultimately, like with any tool, it serves a function, but of course you should only use that tool if the function it provides is something you beleive has value to you. This applies to anything, be it skimmers, UV, halides, .. whatever.

Peace out. :)


Excellent post Tony. This brings back the years of heated discussions on another board. :lol: Nothing wrong with running skimmerless, as long as other nutrient export methods are used and then "mentioned", as Daniel did, when saying I run skimmerless, however many seem to forget that part.

Marie, thats an awesome pic. Was that Eric,s tank before the mishap?

[marie]

Excellent post Tony. This brings back the years of heated discussions on another board. :lol: Nothing wrong with running skimmerless, as long as other nutrient export methods are used and then "mentioned", as Daniel did, when saying I run skimmerless, however many seem to forget that part.

Marie, thats an awesome pic. Was that Eric,s tank before the mishap?

Thats what his tank looks like now, after the mishap

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Wow. Pretty awesome. Hard to argue with *that* :wink:

[Voxboy]

I have been running my system for a little over a year. I do 25% water changes every two weeks. My system is sumpless as well. I AM however going to be adding a skimmer. My biggest fear I guess is an overall system crash....don't know why. My fish are starting to get large and when I see them poop I am amazed how much bigger thier dumps are getting. I will be adding a hang on so Idon't think it will make a big difference either way...maybe help a little. Anyone have a hang on skimmer they want to sell???

http://www.freewebs.com/voxboy/Amp/120%20gallon.JPG

[Doug]

I have been running my system for a little over a year. I do 25% water changes every two weeks. My system is sumpless as well. I AM however going to be adding a skimmer. My biggest fear I guess is an overall system crash....don't know why. My fish are starting to get large and when I see them poop I am amazed how much bigger thier dumps are getting. I will be adding a hang on so Idon't think it will make a big difference either way...maybe help a little. Anyone have a hang on skimmer they want to sell???

http://www.freewebs.com/voxboy/Amp/120%20gallon.JPG

WELCOME TO CANREEF :mrgreen:

[Doug]

and a nice looking aquarium. :D

[Voxboy]

Thanks Doug. :mrgreen:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I agree--looks great! What size tank is that?

Welcome to Canreef!

[Voxboy]

Thanks Iron Chef. It's a 120g 4x2x2. I guess I should include info in my sig.

[ron101]

Well, MY point is (and always was if you "read my posts carefully" see? two can play at this game :p ) is that skimmerless is certainly an option, because it's not about what equipment you have, but what your nutrient import/export balance is all about. It's a simple producer/consumer scenario. If less goes in, there's less to accumulate. If more goes in, you need to take more out. The goal is equilibrium. A skimmer is but one tool in the arsenal for this goal. There are several others.

I'm sorry but I guess what bothering me here is that over the years I've heard this argument again and again where someone takes a stand and seems to implicate that we should all throw our skimmers away "because they don't use it, and they have success." To turn things around on you a bit, it's the same thing as saying "Because *I* use a skimmer and have success, everyone who doesn't have one should go out and buy one" and that's the very sentiment to which you seem to be objecting. ;) Never at once disputed success isn't possible, but MY point is that there is value in a properly tuned, good design skimmer.

Agreed. The pro- anti- skimmer debate is just another example of an argument that is more emotional than factual. It is hard to fault the hobbyists though because there is not all that much factual information available and many are not familiar with more 'scientific' methods for reaching accurate conclusions (ie accounting for ALL the variables). They run a skimmer and their tank is doing well so it must be making a positive contribution...

I have never seen a complete study that determined that the skimate from foam fractioning is indeed harmful to reef life (I think Borneman did some work but was it conclusive?) yet we assume it is. Why? Because it looks gross and smells bad to us so it must be bad for reef life?

One variable that I do think is often overlooked is the marketing from the industry. As with most others, consumption is encouraged to increase profit and more/bigger is better (and more expensive). Quality skimmers are expensive in an already expensive hobby.

If I had to set up a new system I would definitely look at avoiding purchasing a skimmer if at all possible by keeping the bioload reasonable and choosing corals that thrive at moderate or higher nutrient levels (ie no sps). This would reduce cost and reduce the possibility of 'equipment overload.'

[Voxboy]

One variable that I do think is often overlooked is the marketing from the industry. As with most others, consumption is encouraged to increase profit and more/bigger is better (and more expensive). Quality skimmers are expensive in an already expensive hobby.

If I had to set up a new system I would definitely look at avoiding purchasing a skimmer if at all possible by keeping the bioload reasonable and choosing corals that thrive at moderate or higher nutrient levels (ie no sps). This would reduce cost and reduce the possibility of 'equipment overload.'

Excellent points. I'm not sure which industry encourages more consumption/gadgets for profit.For me its between this one....... and golf. Unfortunately I have a passion for both:cry:

Skimmer verses no skimmer is a stupid debate/argument due to the variables involved with individual reef tanks and with no impiracle proof otherwise. I have seen amazing tanks with and without. I am still a firm believer in water changes (50% a month) ...always will be. I think by me adding a skimmer to my system will further aid in the water quality...I know it wont hurt it.

[TeknoPunk]

Thanks for your positive comments.
I have never used a skimmer. The first tank I set up was a 29 gallon in December 2006. Then I decided that I wanted a bigger tank and upgraded to a 50 gallon.

Both tanks have been running without a skimmer since day 1. The tank get some Diatoms but I believe this is the result of using tap water. Yes, you are reading well. I have used tap water since day one and so far no problems. I use IO salt and don't add any additives, just do weekly water changes. I have been thinking about buying a Deltec 600 (skimmer) just in case it is needed.

Here the tank specs:

50 gallon tank
2X150 HQI + 2X39 T5
1 Hydor Koralia #2
100 watt heater

That's all the equipment that I have been using since I set up this tank.
Let me know if you have any more questions.


Similar to me. I have never used a skimmer and haven't had any problems either. I do have one but it is not in use... all I have it doing is helping circulate the water. my tank has been running for a year now.

to be honest I would use my skimmer for what it is suppossed to be used for but I can't figure out how to get it to work properly :redface:

[Carrera75]

I have been running my system for a little over a year. I do 25% water changes every two weeks. My system is sumpless as well. I AM however going to be adding a skimmer. My biggest fear I guess is an overall system crash....don't know why. My fish are starting to get large and when I see them poop I am amazed how much bigger thier dumps are getting. I will be adding a hang on so Idon't think it will make a big difference either way...maybe help a little. Anyone have a hang on skimmer they want to sell???

http://www.freewebs.com/voxboy/Amp/120%20gallon.JPG

Great looking tank...it looks very healthy!

[Carrera75]

Similar to me. I have never used a skimmer and haven't had any problems either. I do have one but it is not in use... all I have it doing is helping circulate the water. my tank has been running for a year now.

to be honest I would use my skimmer for what it is suppossed to be used for but I can't figure out how to get it to work properly :redface:


Any pics of your tank?

[TeknoPunk]

Any pics of your tank?

yea... doesn't do it any justice though.... my camera isn't very good.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/TeknoPunk/DSCF1124.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/TeknoPunk/DSCF1127.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/TeknoPunk/DSCF1126.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/TeknoPunk/DSCF1054.jpg

[Voxboy]

Awesome tank techno. I love your wrasses as well...they get along OK with each other?

[TeknoPunk]

Awesome tank techno. I love your wrasses as well...they get along OK with each other?

thanks... still a work in progress though. :)

the coris wrasses get along quite well actually, I really like them because they add some really vibrant yellow to the tank. I used to have a yellow angel and he was nice but I find the coris wrasses are brighter, and more active.