"Refined" Tank Raised Fish Survey

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Hi List! Thanks for all the replys so far on tank raised fish. Please answer this refined survey at you convience.
Who would be willing to purchase the Tank Raised species mentioned below? At a slight premium.

Species available will be Regal Tangs, Naso Tangs, Acanthurus Tangs, Valencienna and Amblygobious Goby species, And some odd ball angels and butterflys.

These are species that for the most part will not breed in captivity at a commercially viable level that will support our livestock needs for the hobby. So I am Tank Raising them as the best alternative.

I would like to see laws prohibiting the wild collection and sale of sub-adult and adult species that are being breed and tank raised in captivity.
I would like to see the stores have no option of weather or not to purchase tank breed or raised livestock, because if there are tank breed or raised fish of a particular species available they are not able or allowed to bring in a wild caught specimen.

[bongy]

Hi Kyle,

As Sam point out in the other thread, this is not going to work.

>I would like to see the stores have no option of weather or not to purchase
>tank breed or raised livestock, because if there are tank breed or raised
>fish of a particular species available they are not able or allowed to bring in
>a wild caught specimen.

Species A - tank raised $100
Species B - wild $50.

If they are comparable in size and type, which one do you think the average people (who don't know much about the hobby) would buy.

Unless, they raised the price on "all wild fish". It is probably going to worsen the problem as more people will buy species that are not available for tank-raised.

Bongy

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Bongy, I mentioned that the species available would be at a "slight" premium. What you are quoting is double the price. I know thats what some are marking up for tank raised but Im asking if you would buy them at a slight premium? Say if a Med Blue Tang was $44.99 at your LFS would you pay $49.99 for a tank raised version that looked the same, didnt carry parisites, had great colour, and was readily eating prepared aquarium foods...

[Samw]

Yes, in the example with clowns, the assumption is that the current prices of wild caught clowns is at the optimal (equilibrium) price (say $15) for clownfish. In order to achieve our goal to sell more tank-raised clowns and deter people from buying wild-caught clowns, raising the price of wild-caught clowns alone is not the solution by itself (reason provided in other thread). In addition to raising the price of wild-caught clowns, the tank-raised clowns need to come down to the equilibrium price.

BTW: Simply having a LFS raise the price of their wild-caught clowns won't work either because of competition among LFS. One guy will always undercut the other. The simpliest way to artifically increase the price of wild-caught clownfish across the board is having the wild-caught clowns taxed by the gov't. :):) Again, we still need to reduce price of tank-raised clowns otherwise, people will just buy substitutes if all clowns (wild or not) are $24. Now, if these 2 actions can successfully create a situation where tank-raised clowns were $15 and wild-caught were $24, we've achieved our goal. The market basically is unchanged but the ocean will benefit. People will still buy clowns as usually and still don't know or need to know where they come from.

[Dresden]

i would always buy captive bred whenever the choice is available

[Aquattro]

I recently bought an acanthurus nigricans. It is a nice fish and I am happy with it. I paid about $60. If this fish was available as tank raised for $100, I would have bought it. BUT, you are all missing the point. We are a small group of hobbyists that go out of our way to be better hobbyists.
If you want a real survey, go stand at the door of any LFS and ask the customers the same question.
Kyle, I hope you are not basing any business decisions on the opinions of a couple of dozen Canreef members!!! Most of us already have all the fish we need!

[bongy]

Hi Kyle,

If the difference is that little (< 10%), I wouldn't think twice even if the tank-raised stuff is half the size of the wild one.

Seriously, if you can get the cost that competitive, I don't think you need to do much to convince LFS to switch to your supply. Just point out that they can easily justify the 10% increase by reducing their lost on the wholesaler and store end. Because of that, the LFS might even be able to eat that 10% so there will be no price increase on the consumer end.

The only issue then will be to maintain a recently stable supply of tank-raised fish.

Bongy

[Samw]

BUT, you are all missing the point. We are a small group of hobbyists that go out of our way to be better hobbyists.
If you want a real survey, go stand at the door of any LFS and ask the customers the same question.
Kyle, I hope you are not basing any business decisions on the opinions of a couple of dozen Canreef members!!! Most of us already have all the fish we need!


That was somewhat my point Brad. :) The market determines what gets bought and sold (and at what price), not a couple of dozen Canreefers like us. :)

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Dont worry, I am not using your answers as my buisness decision. As a strong comment that states how I truly feel, "Canada, as far as the Marine Ornamental hobby goes, is a sad pathetic joke!!!!" Canada is nothing! A blip in the industry that is hardly worth counting! Most of my buisness will be going to the good ol US of A. That magical place where they purchase large quantities at higher dollar value and dont bitch and moan every step of the way... I already have a demand in the states of 10,000 units of fish bi-monthly, for the begining I wont even be able to produce 2000 per month, but they said they will buy all I can produce for the time being. I only will sell to Canada to make the tank raised fish available to the local hobbiests at a decent price. I want hobbiests in canada to have the choice.

[Delphinus]

Like Desden said, I'd buy captive-raised, any day, so long as the choice is there.

Now the caveat, those might be fish that I am unable to care for, as I only have small tanks (72g and 75g). No 6' or 8' tanks in my foreseeable future, no matter how bad I might want one :(

[Josh23]

Provided that I had a tank large enough to proivde for one of those fish I would buy tank raised over net caught.

Josh

[Aquattro]

Kyle, just curious. If you have 10,000 fish pre-sold bi-monthly, why this little survey?

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Canadian buisness plan needs canadian content.... blah blah blah... goverment bullcrap.... if you want a goverment funded aquaculture loan its easier to show them a demand from the canadians and make them sign the cheque, supporting their own and stuff... I honestly plan on a very small percentage of my fish to stay in canada... just look at the economics and population. But the poll was more of a personal interest piece. Wholsalers in the USA will buy far larger quantities at a higher price and not really complain about anything, in Canada you almost have to send the wholesalers free fish and beg them to place an order.... not all but alot, the industry is really pathetic in canada.

[saltcreep]

Kyle,

I hope that you are certainly speaking of wholesalers back East rather than those in the Lower Mainland. I know you qualified your statement but I hope I don't get painted with that brush. I'll take the free fish if your offering.

Kyle...CMA

[naesco]

I am so happy to see you in the captive fish market but am really surprised by the rant.
You have come to a Canadian reefer board and got IMO an excellentr response with very intelligent answers (except one :) ).
You also provoked the best discussion on this board that I have seen.

You go on a US board my friend and you will disappear to page 5 in no time.
Why do you see fit to put down our country. I can tell you if you make those comments to American businessman about Canda they will think your nuts and wont deal with you.

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Anyone who deals with marine ornamentals on a buisness level that I have talked to would agree with me that the canadian market is pathetic, (for the most part) I think pretty much everyone on this board is a fairly concerned reefer or they probably wouldnt still visit everyday. Sure there are a few stores in all of canada that sell quality quality quality and enviromentally sound. But I cant name enough stores to use up my ten fingers in all of canada. The vast majority of stores are pushing crap at a high price with uneducated staff, "yes jonny that baby naso tang will only grow as big as he has room for in that 10 gallon hagen starter kit, and of course the filter it comes with is more than enough to keep him happy"
Im not saying that there are not stores like that in the USA but on the most part the stores down south put all of our local stores to shame. In alot of Marine specality stores you can walk in and ask if you can speak to the on staff marine biologist. I plan on supplying as many fish to canadian wholsalers as they can handle but honestly that number is really low, if some of you only knew the numbers that float through some of the major wholesalers in the USA. With that said of course Im doing this to make some money "I do have to support myself" but thats not why I want to raise tank raised fish, Im doing it for the bennifit of the hobby, and I firmly belive that Tank breed and Tank Raised species will soon be heavily regulated in the wild, and Im glad, its about bloody time. If you went diving to a lagoon 5-10 years ago and then you went there now your jaw would drop at the lack of reef life. The hobby we support DOES make an impact on the reef and we as a whole really need to pull our heads out of our butts and make some REAL ethical choices, and that would be never buying a species that is available tank raised or breed.

[zulu_principle]

After a few years of business school and plenty more years in the up and downs of many industries, including marine ornamentals in the "pathetic canadian market" & some consideration of your views.

I suggest you take the time to understand that if "you are doing this to make some money" you "must listen to what your consumers have to say" (2000, Bill Gates, Comdex)

But, with a firm committment for "10K fish bimonthy", you must be the "MAN."

IMHonestSingularO


Wendell

[DBM]

I have no idea what your qualifications are but I bet Wendell was thinking of this question as well. Do you know how much space you need to produce 10 000 fish bi-monthly? What are going to do? Don't forget you'll need to have grow out facilities to hold probably 100 000 fish, along with broodstock, and potential broodstock.
Why do you think ORA and C-Quest target stores and not wholesalers with CB livestock (better price). They're significantly larger than you, have significant business contacts and experience, and from what I hear are breaking even. You must remember that to break through you're probably going to have to have lower prices than your competitors to start because they've got a quality product and an established customer base. If you're planning on selling to wholesalers drop your price by a minimum of 30%.
I also have to agree with saltcreep, there's some nice stuff here on the west coast and he's proven that CB clowns can sell out here. I don't want to quash your plans - I'm just real curious. By the way, you could probably move alot more fish here in Canada than you think, probably several thousand pieces a month.

[DBM]

Almost forgot, if you're looking for start-up capital try obtaining it through some sort of R&D aquaculture program with the Government. I managed to secure a substantial grant for my former employer some years back by doing this. There's actually a guy allocated in Victoria to helping people get started out.
Don't take these questions the wrong way, I'm just hoping you have a hard close look at this before you get started. As a guy with an education and work background in intensive aquaculture I sincerely wish you the best of luck. I'd love to see you make a go of it.

Doug

[spikehs]

just a question,

i was under the impression that theses species are practically impossible to raise (due to the small size of the babies) have you been successfull? How far have you gotten so far? thanks, and good luck.

[UnderWorldAquatics]

thanks for the input DBM, Ill be e-mailing you if thats ok...
and for the last question I dont breed these fish I bring in large larval stage and post larval fish and raise them to a saleable size, ive had very good sucess.

[rossb]

deepblue...I think it is a bit like the line in the movie...if you build it they will come...

We all know that the practice of fish collection will not change as long as there is money to be made. And as long as people are of the opinion the cheaper the fish the better...there will be money to be made.

If marine hobbiests were absolutely shocked that a local store brought in fish that were cyanide caught, and then never shopped in that store again, well that would send a message. If a LFS only carried tank raised livestock and marine hobbiests (is that a word?) shopped only there, and consequently they made more money... well that sends a message too.

The fate of the reef system does not rest in the hands of the importers it rests in the hands of the consumers. You tell me how I can buy fish from you...I'm there...and I might even stand in front of a LFS store and hand out notices 8)