Tank Raised Fish Poll

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Need the lists help for market research purposes.
This poll is figuring that the said fish are nice in appearance, health, and size, and the cost is very similar to net caught...
Thanks :Kyle

[zulu_principle]

The poll should be how much of a premium would you be willing to pay.

If you look at the prices at J&L Aquatics, then the prices at inland aquatics for tank raised species, there is a large premium on tank raised species. That being said not easily available in Canada.

Why don't you look at the premium you would be charging for your tank raised fish and ask the question with more specifics.


Wendell

[Samw]

He said that cost would be similar to net caught. So the assumption is that he can somehow raise them cheaply and price them to be the same as wild caught (no premium).

[zulu_principle]

That wasn't there when I posted my response.

But, YES.

[Troy F]

I've talked with John about the subject and he had to sell his last shipment of ORA fish back east because no one would pay the extra money for captive bred. Grant has said more or less the exact same thing. It doesn't make any sense to me personally but until wild caught are given a steeper price tag the vast majority of people will go for the cheapest alternative.

As for the poll; I'd pay twice as much for captive bred.

[UnderWorldAquatics]

there will be some premium, but it will be smaller than what is commonly seen on the market today... If a wild caught Regal tang that is 2 1/2"-3' sells for say... $49.95"JL Aquatics" It would sell for about $54.95-$58.95
That would be a retail price, not wholesale. This is a price difference that you see from one store to another for the same fish...

[Troy F]

Right now an orchid dottyback goes for around $35 for wild caught and ORA are $45 and still no one will pay the extra $10.

[Samw]

That wasn't there when I posted my response.

But, YES.


Ah, I see. :P

[zulu_principle]

From my business background my view is that the ORA fish have a fixed sales price, Percula's are $24.99 everywhere you go.

Thats a difficult sale in the lower mainland where everyone has there favourite places to go and the cheapest places to go.

People that are just after the "saltwater experience" IMHO don't really care if they have a few deaths, I've been to view tanks where 4 or 5 Paracanturus hepatus have been sold from the local fish store for a party that night, only to see them dead the next week. So price elasticity is extremely important on the purchase, that being said so is color elasticity.

When all the fish hit CITES appendix 2, and they mush have export documentation the value of captive raised will be similar to wild caught fish.

That being said, fish stores need to make sufficient net profit to sustain themselves as a going concern, prices of wild caught and tank raised should not have the same profit margin.

My two cents...


Wendell

[StirCrazy]

I voted yes I would buy them oif availble, but if they were more expensive then my answer would be changed to NO.

I feel people who strive to raise tank raised fish should be doing so and offereing some incentive for people to buy thier fish..

I also do not belive that something should be more expensive just because it is biodegradable, or enviromentlay friendly..

and again I feel that 50% of the people that say they would pay more for a captive fish would realy buy which ever is cheeper.. but that is just my opinion.

Steve

[Samw]

I think it also depends on the fish. For easy-to-catch fish, its not as important. But for fish that are often caught by cyanide, I would pay more to buy the tank raised fish simply because its guaranteed to be cyanide-free. Now, my guess is that those hard-to-catch fish are also the ones that don't breed in captivity so this might be pointless.

[EmilyB]

I voted yes, although I certainly don't need any more fish.... :roll:

From what I've seen, the ORA fish are mostly clowns and dottybacks which I wouldn't be in the market for anymore anyway. Those are captive bred tho, vs tank raised, is that correct?

Captive raised tangs would have appealed to me, but as I say, I'm full up, for maybe 40 or 50 years now..........
:shock:

Unless Santa is VERY VERY 649..... :D

[zulu_principle]

I also do not belive that something should be more expensive just because it is biodegradable, or enviromentlay friendly..


Really :?:

[saltcreep]

Look at some of the related costs associated with setting up an aquaculture facility. Firstly you need a farily sizeable operation to make it commercially viable. ORA grows out the clowns for 8-9 months before they are marketable. With ten different varieties of clowns you can imagine the space to hold all the grow out and brood stock. Add operating costs, labour, and a bit of profit, it starts to add up quickly.

The flip side is that this product is a far superior product. A. ocellaris and P. biaculeatus (gold stripe) are about 1.5" and A. clarkii are about 2". The fish travel much better and obviously adapt to aquarium life very easily, since this is all they have known. They will eat almost anything, although I suggest Vibragro food in the diet to help maintain colour.

Quite a few retailers have discontinued carrying clowns based on high DOA rates. I have witnessed entire batches of clowns die within two days of arrival. This is not uncommon. I much prefer to leave the clowns out in the wild where they belong. I have no problem stepping up to the plate and buying captive bred/tank raised product where it is available.

[Josh23]

I think that its a great idea and Im already supporting it.
Why pull fish from the ocean when they are available tank raised. Its well worth the extra couple dollars. I currently own tank raised bangaii cardinals and clowns.
Josh

[Dorkel Marine 1]

I would spend the extra for tank raised fish. Does anyone sell tank raised gobies

[naesco]

In my opinion where captive raised fish or coral are available, we should not be importing them from the oceans period. I am surprised to see that someone would not be prepared to pay ten bucks more. :(

Price should not be the factor.
We should support those who are striving to develope a captive only business. Reefers who are harvesting frags are part of the captive business.

[Aquattro]

Sorry to pop this little fantasy bubble, but 9 out of ten people going into a LFS to buy the average fish for their average tank is NOT going to pay even a dollar more for anything...period!!
Most people on this board claim they would and perhaps when the wallet comes out we in fact would. But c'mon!! We're not your average hobbyist. We spend hours reading and talking and reading some more. We care about our hobby for obvious reasons. We don't buy dead coral skelatons, we don't buy a lot of different things for ethical issues.
But be very honest ....we are not exactly sane :P
I have been hanging out in fish stores for many years, and Joe customer is still the same. He/she doesn't give a crap about anything other than a pretty tank to impress all his/her friends. Most fish get treated like candles....you buy them because they're pretty and you replace them when the burn out. No harm done, there's plenty of fish in the sea!!! That's what my mom used to say anyway :D

[ldzielak]

I voted yes, and would pay 1.5 to 2 times "normal" prices, but these fish would also have to housed in there own system at the store. I have had horrible success with tangs from stores. To know these fish are captive raised, and in "clean" tanks makes them more of an investment than a risk.

Lee

[saltcreep]

Brad is so very correct. The average consumer will always look for the cheapest fish available. So much has to be done with respect to education. This applies not only to the average hobbyist but also the retailers. They too must start to be more responsible in their actions by making this product available to the consumer. It is out there!

[ldzielak]

I also agree with Brad, I like deals same as anyone, but the current state of most stores is a risk. I would like some better insurance that the 100-200+ fish are going to survive.

Lee

[naesco]

So how about we ban their import. Or at a minimum ask all the stores to only carry the cultured stock.
It is pretty hard for a newbie and his girlfriend to say no to a clownfish no matter what it would cost. IMO it is one of the first fish a newbie buys as it represents the marine hobby. Look at Canreefs logo and others.
Think about it. Would a newbie pay ten dollars more for a clownfish

[Aquattro]

Or at a minimum ask all the stores to only carry the cultured stock.


The LFS in Victoria would tell you to get stuffed!! They generally don't give a damn about livestock. Fish and corals are a commodity. Bottom line is profit and can they afford that new truck they've been looking at. I tried to explain to my LFS that anemones are not a good choice for the average aquarist. Biggest seller we have, she claims! And she's right. I see 5 or 6 new anemones come in every shipment. Some die, some get sold (and then die). Exuse me ma'am, should I buy an anemone with this here clowny fish?? You bet, maybe buy two so it can choose!! And it happens everyday in every city that has a LFS. Asking any store to do the right thing in lieu of profit is going to get you tossed from the LFS PDQ!!!

[naesco]

Thats why we need a law.
We can start on trying to ban the import of fish and coral which we all know has no chance of success in even the experts tanks like many butterflyfish for example.
And even if they dont like to hear it, we should voice our unhappyness with what we see. We should also only support those shops which have some ethical standards.

[Aquattro]

naesco, who is going to pass this law? Nobody! And since we make up such a small part of the purchasing force in any LFS, they couldn't give a damn if you supported them or not. Let's face it, you aren't good for business. You tell other customers about J&L, you talk customers out of buying things and you buy most of your stuff online. I for one am surprised my LFS even lets me in the door. If I told her I was going to shop on the other side of town, she'd pay for a cab!!
Now don't get me wrong, I agree fully with the intent of this topic, but reality is this. You and I are nothing to the average retail fish/pet store. They would rather we went to the competition and told their customers about online prices.
To make us happy, they would have to hire more people and take home less money.
I learned something long ago while working for a pet chain ....if you like animals, the pet business is not the place to be. If a fish gets sick, you flush it. Flushing is cheaper than medicating. If a customer asks if the tang fits in the 20g, you say yes. Sell 'em a bigger tank next month, but don't let them leave with money!! I got in trouble for not selling those little blocks to feed your fish for a month while you're on holidays! Sell the customer what they think they want and smile as you tanke their money. That is what the retail LFS biz is all about. Once in a while you see a decent moral store in business, but not very often.

[Troy F]

Brad the mentality that; it can't be fixed so why bother, is why there are such critical issues with the hobby now. It's only a matter of time before some organization does get up a head of steam and forces through some laws that either stop the hobby dead in its tracks or put a serious rise in pricing. The state of our oceans in general is depressing and the people that care are eyeballing this hobby as a needless drain on natural resource. It doesn't matter if hobby impact is minimal compared with other more destructive practices, they'll look at it as one small step towards a greater goal. I don't deny what your saying, only that they can't and won't continue to make unethical choices in the fish/coral industry. Your absolutely right about the stores caring about profit and that is precisely why we need a law that says; if said animal is available captive bred it is illegal to bring in wild caught specimens. How to implement that is another question.

I was very vocal with John and Grant about bringing in captive bred and both have tried. Both said that almost every customer asks why the clown on the left is more than the one in the other tank. "It's captive bred.""I'll take the cheaper one, its colours are a little brighter." I can see an easy way of avoiding that; don't have two different choices. If people can't understand the importance of captive raised stock then screw them. If you take a clown from an anemone the anemone dies, if the anemone is taken the clowns die. There are two species affected by the collection of one or both. People can't figure it out then they don't get to make the choice, that's how it should be and in the not to distant future, how it will be.

[christyf5]

Well I, for one, was so excited to see that J&L had brought in captive raised fish. While they weren't exactly the ones I would have chosen (yes I know there aren't that many species that are being aquacultured yet), It certainly opened my eyes to fish that I chould be thinking about having in my tank. I mean an orchid dottyback is one beautiful fish, and hey I wanted a royal gramma but the dottyback is pretty nice and aquacultured so why not, as long as its compatible with my other fish (yes Brad, I buy them because they are pretty :P). Now that I hear that they are sending shipments back due to low demand I am very disappointed.

Living here in Nanaimo, I have virtually no access to any livestock. I went down to Victoria this past Saturday and was absolutely horrified in one store to see at least one dead fish in each tank and one tank that had a large angel (not sure what kind) that had some sort of tumors growing all over it. Their reef tank had several bleached corals and a medium sized caulastrea that was selling for $459!! (I'm not quite sure if that was a typo or if it was one of those "rare" corals that victoria LFS love to carry). The last time I was in there there were no less than 6 dying rotting anemones in another tank that wiped out almost every coral that was in there including a couple of shrimp. I can honestly say that I am no longer interested in ever going to that store again. I would be scared to buy anything from there. And I have had this experience with another store in Victoria as well. Consequently I have one store left to go to in Victoria. (Vancouver here I come! :D ).

Now I really enjoy going into fish stores and having a look even if I don't buy (which I usually do). I have absolutely no problem paying $10 more for an aquacultured fish. NONE. Thats only because I know fish. I don't necessarily know tropical marine fish per se, but I know fish. I know that a aquacultured fish will take alot more stress and adapt to its new environment a heck of alot faster than a wild one and you know, if I go buy a wild fish and it croaks, I will want another one eventually which means a heck of alot more than the $10 I could have saved if I had bought the cultured one which more than likely would have survived in my tank. After my credit card recovers from my purchase at seacare (hey did you know they were having a sale?? :lol: ). I will be getting an orchid dottyback from J&L (if they have any left).

Anyway, I'm finished ranting ;)

Christy:)

PS. Somebody tell me if that LFS stuff I put in there is a no no.

[Delphinus]

Wow, what a fabulous discussion.

Christy, no no-no. Excellent points.

Troy, wow. Awesome points. I agree: when the choice is available, let's remove the choice. If customers are going to whine about an extra $10, then it's time to get out that typical LFS superiority attitude, and give the speech that since they're captive bred, it's better for the hobby, it's better for the animals, and it's better for the buyers. If they still have a problem, well I guess you can't please everyone.

Brad's totally right, the average consumer is probably a total idiotic twat. It's going to be an uphill battle to convince them one-by-one. So if they're incapable of making the right decisions, then let's make them incapable of making the wrong decision.

Steve, I know you say you'd just buy the cheaper option, but I look at your setup, and I look at your toys er tools and camera and stuff, and I look at your photographs .... and I know there's no way you're not convinced that superior products are more important than just good deals every time.

The problem with captive raised is it requires an investment, and so to make the effort worthwhile, there has to be return on that investment. So, maybe the answer is in part to artificially inflate the price of wild-caught. Obviously that would have to be done at the govenmental level by introducing levies or taxes or duties, because otherwise it's just going into somebody's pocket, and that's no answer either (the idea is to discourage the excessive import of wild-caught).

Just my $0.02. I know that I tend to take a naive view on things, but it really does seem unsustainable as it is right now, doesn't it. We'll need to do something, eventually.

[Aquattro]

Troy, I think the problem with enforcing a law, providing you can find someone to do so, is it promotes another avenue of abuse. The wild caught will still be caught but just passed off as captive raised/bred. How is anyone going to monitor these fish? Certifications? I can print those right now. I think it is a very noble idea to wish for a law like this, but it isn't going to happen. There may very well be a law banning all fish because it's easier and takes less administration.
I also have met LFS owners that do care, but they are either broke or already out of business.
I would like to see a survey done summarizing how many people in North America have a marine tank and how many of them think the fish in it are real live animals(rathr than ornaments). I think it would be a dismal account of our hobby.
On the law thing again, I was talking to my wife who thought it was a good idea. She also thought it would be good to expand it to dogs and cats. No selling of dogs or cats as long as some were available inexpensively at the pound. Afterall, they'll be put down if they don't find homes.
How about people. Maybe we need to stop letting people in the country as long as residents here need jobs. Troy, I can relate the intent of your law to almost any facet of our society. Wonderful in theory and intent. Just not practical to implement.

You say "If people can't understand, then screw them" As far as the LFS is concerned, that's screwing 99% of their customers!!! Not good business sense!
I agree that removing the choice is the only thing that will work, and if the LFS only had 24 dollar clowns, they would sell. It escapes me why they don't. I guess my LFS would just raise the price of wild caught to match the captive raised down the street. More profit that way.
Until the government comes to the LFS and dicatates what they can and can't sell, which is nevergoing to happen, things will remain as they are.
I know you don't like to hear that, but that's the way I see things. I hope one day you can make me eat these words though...really, I do!!

[Samw]

I agree that removing the choice is the only thing that will work, and if the LFS only had 24 dollar clowns, they would sell. It escapes me why they don't. I guess my LFS would just raise the price of wild caught to match the captive raised down the street. More profit that way.


I believe in the Open Market Supply and Demand model for Economics. What'll happen when the price goes up and you keep the supply and demand curves constant is that you'll have lots of excess inventory of clowns left over because the demand for clowns is less at the higher price. For $24, people who only want to buy $15 clowns will now buy a tang or something "better" instead. What'll happen then is that sales of tangs or other substitutes go up and then you create pressures on other species. :) :)

[Aquattro]

Sam, if you're gonna make me dig out the economics texts, I'm not gonna participate in this thread anymore!!! :D :P

[bongy]

I think Sam made a very good point.

However, I think the price for tank-raised fish will drop eventually as more company are doing it and with better success due to increase of knowledge and technology.

I also think the price for wild fish will rise due to increase of ( salary, environment, permit, etc ).

At the end, it will made economic sense even for the average reefer to buy tank raise fish. Just look at the fresh water side. (I know breeding clown is not like breeding neon tetra but you get the point). The question will be how soon we can get there. Actually, for some saltwater fish such as Bangaii cardinal, we are there already.

As for me, I would get a tank-raised one if the price difference is not too large. Size is not an issue for me as I like to get fish small and grow them up.

Bongy

[StirCrazy]

Wow, what a fabulous discussion.

Brad's totally right, the average consumer is probably a total idiotic twat. It's going to be an uphill battle to convince them one-by-one. So if they're incapable of making the right decisions, then let's make them incapable of making the wrong decision.

*I am not trying to single out your posts Tony, but they hapend to be perfect for what I wanted to state :lol: *

This was my point at the beginning but lets drop the name calling part and just try this.. the average consumer is uneducated about the issues going on, now having said this even the majority of educated people will take a helthy wild caught clown over one that was tank raised but costs 15.00 more. Instead of trying to brand everyone who would take the cheeper option as unethacale, and trying to pass laws to make them ethical (starting to sound like a waist of time green peace idea...) (sorry if I ofended anyone who supports grrenpeace buit I have seen that they do more dammage than good and I do not suport them in anyway)

What needs to be done instead is for some major investments to go into captive breading programs.. not just little operations (again it is a nobal effort but a waist of time as you will only be able to suport a small area and your prices will be high) With a large operation, as what the fresh water industry has right now, you can flood the market and efectivaly drop the price of captive raised to close to that of wild caught. think about it.. you are shipping short distances so you can ship larger quantities instead of a reduced # on a 24 hour flight, the fish are more helthy you say so more will survive allowing more to be sold at a profit..

Once again I maintain if some one is serious enuf and starts a large operation there is no reason they can't bring them in at a price that will undercut wild fish and make them more atractive to the consumer.

oh, don't reply with how much it costs so and so to raise this or that.. I am not talking about the hobbiest scale or even a fish store that grows there own.. i am talking about a full scale large operation.. of course smaller operations are going to have higher costs/fish.. just the way it goes.. :roll:



Steve, I know you say you'd just buy the cheaper option, but I look at your setup, and I look at your toys er tools and camera and stuff, and I look at your photographs .... and I know there's no way you're not convinced that superior products are more important than just good deals every time.

Delphinus, this is true.. I care a lot for my critters, which is the reason I got rid of the hobo tang I had.. he was fine in my tank at the size he was but I know he would soon be to large and there would be a war with my Yellow tang.. but if you look closely at all my equipment and such I have built most of it myself (or with help) for a cost that was way way lower than retail.. if I didn't have the resorses I would probably be running NO lights and a sea clone, but yes I do strive to give my critters the best home I can. now as for the issue at hand.. all my fish I have are wild caught ( I am assuming) they are all hellthy, and I think there happy (well except for the Tang which is still giving me the finger when I get close to the tank :shock: still mad that I tore the tank down I think)

but in all honesty I would buy a "Helthy" wild caught over a tank raised if there was a fair difference in the price.. I am not talking about 1 or 2 bucks but say more than 10.00



The problem with captive raised is it requires an investment, and so to make the effort worthwhile, there has to be return on that investment. So, maybe the answer is in part to artificially inflate the price of wild-caught. Obviously that would have to be done at the govenmental level by introducing levies or taxes or duties, because otherwise it's just going into somebody's pocket, and that's no answer either (the idea is to discourage the excessive import of wild-caught).


Instead of encouraging people to charge more for wild caught what we need to do is show that on a large scale you can raise captive bread fish and show that you can make a profit at the same prices as wild caught. if you encourage higher pricing on wildcaught 99.9% of LFS are still not going to carry tang raised cuz there is more prifit on wild caught now. and fi you encourage higher prices on tank raised you will get places lying about it and charging tank raised prices for wild caught.. after all how is the average person going to tell? if they require a certificat, what you will see id stores mixing wild and tank to raise profit again.. so they might buy 40 tank raised and 100 wild but every time they sell a tank raised they will move a wild over to that tank.. remember 99.9% of LFS are there to make money not to give you the best deal they can.



like Tony said this is a good descussion to bad we (as in ethical reefers) are probably less than 1% of the reefers in the world. Yes I do concider my self ethical even though I chose the cheeper wild caught fish..


JMHO
Steve

[Aquattro]

Yes I do concider my self ethical even though I chose the cheeper wild caught fish..
Steve

really??

[StirCrazy]

really??

Yes and I concider this because I will try to give what ever type of fish I have the best home I can.. If I feel I can't do this I will not buy the fish period.

Steve

[Troy F]

I voted yes I would buy them oif availble, but if they were more expensive then my answer would be changed to NO.

I feel people who strive to raise tank raised fish should be doing so and offereing some incentive for people to buy thier fish..

Holy smokes! :shock: It costs more to raise fish than it does to pay some third world guy to go catch them and ship them here. What is the incentive for a breeder to set up a facility? Answer: profit. What is your incentive to buy captive bred fish? Answer: doing your part to save the natural reef. You don't get to call yourself ethical if you don't make ethical choices. An ethical choice would be; pay the extra ten bucks for a captive bred fish that will likely be healthier and therefore have a better chance at survival. Sack up and do your part, that would be ethical. I gaurantee that if we don't clean the hobby up there won't be one. If what Brad says holds true (and I don't dispute him) we might as well kiss it good bye today.

I also do not belive that something should be more expensive just because it is biodegradable, or enviromentlay friendly..

What if it costs more to create biodegradable or environmentally friendly products? Isn't it our moral obligation to do our part to leave this planet in the best possible shape. Those before us can claim ignorance to a large extent but we no longer can. This applies to everything in life: our tanks, our vehicles, our food, our garbage....etc.

Brad, I agree with a lot of what you say. Obviously, the majority of hobbyists are border line retarded or just don't care, either or. This is really neither here nor there anyway. If you know better and I know better we have to strive to set examples. If there are people that know better and don't do a thing...well I guess they have to look in the mirror. I've had talks with different people, some with tanks and some without. All agree this hobby isn't ethical but that if you do your part you can make a difference.

I don't agree that there will be no regulation in the hobby because it is too difficult. There has already been regulation implemented and I'm sure there will be more (see Caribbean and Hawaii). It really wouldn't be that hard to stop boxes of fish from Indonesia or Micronesia. Look at Fiji and the whole CITIES issue. It didn't take much did it? What about Europe and South Africa? Europe doesn't allow many specific species of coral and South Africa allows no stonies. We can hide our heads in the ground and say, "...it won't happen here..." or "...if it does happen, there's nothing we can do about it..." or we can start educating people and doing our part to convince people why they should spend an extra ten dollars or not purchase a certain animal.

[naesco]

Alright who is the reefer that voted NO?

[naesco]

I gotta say I am really proud of the almost unanimous support for captive raised fish and coral shown on this thread.
I think it is a Canadian thing.
You would never get this kind of support on a US board. There would be all kinds of 'right to bear arms wierdos' demanding the constitutional right to continue to harvest the seas because it is their right; ethics be damned.

[canadawest]

As an individual who has been contributing captive bred and raised fish to local hobbiests and LFS, I of course fully support the sale of captive bred/raised fish vs wild caughts.

I think the benefits of captive bred/raised livestock are just too valuable to put a $$ figure to, but it does boil down to an education issue. I also agree that if you put a choice in front of the "average consumer" they will tend to take the cheaper choice unless they are more educated about their choice.

I also agree that we (board members) are not a representative group within the hobby, and the fact that we tend to be more educated and knowledgeable about our hobby predisposes us to choose better alternatives like captive bred/raised fish.

With all that said, I will continue to proudly breed and raise fish, and trade captive raised corals and inverts. While I'm certainly a sucker for a "good deal", my preference is to the long-term health and happiness of my animals.

[Aquattro]

If you know better and I know better we have to strive to set examples. If there are people that know better and don't do a thing...well I guess they have to look in the mirror.

Troy, I agree whole-heartedly with this. And as I stated, I am more than willing to pay a lot more for a captive bred fish if it saves a wild one from being ripped from the ocean. With the money I spend on this hobby, whining about $10 or $30 or whatever is silly. I don't even mean to suggest I will pay more for a "better" fish, just one that saves a wild fish from capture(shipping, suffering, death, that sort of thing). Am I normal? Unfortunately, no. I try to propagate knowledge of the hobby to anyone that will care to listen. I don't know how many anemone arguments I've had at the LFS.....but I continue to try.
As for legislation, I think that might help, although I truly believe the only laws we will ever see are not ones we would welcome. Hopefully this isn't the case, but I do believe it is. :(