can't maintain alkalinity

[fishface]

so i've got a marinetech ca reactor and it pumps out the Ca...levels are constantly high...as in > 450ppm. alk however is constantly low...like < 7dKH. i've tried every combination of adjustment that i can make with effluent and co2 but cannot maintain my alk. salt mix i use has low alk (6.5-ish) so i've been boosting this before it hits the tank but am i under any illusions that this reactor should be able to maintain alk levels?

appreciate any input...

ps my mg levels are good at around 1380-1450ppm.

[marie]

so i've got a marinetech ca reactor and it pumps out the Ca...levels are constantly high...as in > 450ppm. alk however is constantly low...like < 7dKH. i've tried every combination of adjustment that i can make with effluent and co2 but cannot maintain my alk. salt mix i use has low alk (6.5-ish) so i've been boosting this before it hits the tank but am i under any illusions that this reactor should be able to maintain alk levels?

appreciate any input...

ps my mg levels are good at around 1380-1450ppm.

With the calcium levels up so high you may be getting some precipitation happening dropping the alk part. I would stop the calcium reactor for a few days, bring the alk level back up to where you want it and when the calcium drops down to 400 start fiddling with the reactor again.:biggrin:

[fishface]

good idea...i'll give it a shot! thanks for the idea.

[Jason McK]

It's going to be very difficult to bring ALK up with your Reactor. I would get a large box of Bakeing soda and Boraxo mix it 2 parts Bakeing Soda to 1 part Boraxo and dose that to get your ALK back in line.

I would also check your salt in a fresh mixed batch of Water measure the ALK there to ensure you are starting off right.

You should use your Reactor to maintain CA and ALK not to raise it

J

[fishface]

yup...that's the truth i guess! get my parameters straight in my tank and in my change water then i suppose the reactor will be able to maintain...

thanks J,

[Jason McK]

No Prob D.
I have the exact same problem right now.

J

[littlesilvermax]

Having a low magnesium level will likely affect this as well, try keeping magnesium at 1350-1400.

[SuperFudge]

Daryll,

Im gonna head out on a limb and disagree with some here.
There is definatly something else wrong, The reactor the size of the one you have will have no problem maintaining alk in a 300g system packed with SPS. Let alone a 120.
Your Reactor is an Alkalinity reactor...i dont even know why they call it a ca reactor.

It is much easier to raise alk with the reactor than it is calcium, they both come out of it in certain ratio`s. Alk being the major portion.

Most systems will see their alk top out long before they reach the calcium they wish to see, using a reactor..as is the case with my system.

My alk gets so high, i have temorarily shut the reactor down.
I will hit an alk of high 4`s meq/l long before a Ca of 400 is hit.
This is why many will also use a calcium additive to try and boost Ca without the added alk, this is why i have to run Kalkwasser aswell.
The reverse is true for Kalk, though it adds both aswell.

-What is the Ph Coming out of the reactor ?
- what is the Ca coming out of the reactor ?
- what is the alk coming out of the reactor ?
- what is your current effluent rate ?
- what is your current bubble count ?
-is the recirc pump on the reactor running ?

You mention fiddling with different rates...are you leaving it 48 hrs before the tank test is done ?
If the alk is low (out of the reactor) and the PH is above 6.5, then the only adjustment needed is more co2.



If we determine a few of these answers, we will find were the problem lies.

Marc.

[marie]

Daryll,

Im gonna head out on a limb and disagree with some here.
There is definatly something else wrong, The reactor the size of the one you have will have no problem maintaining alk in a 300g system packed with SPS. Let alone a 120.
Your Reactor is actually an Alkalinity reactor...i dont even know why they call it a ca reactor.

It is much easier to raise alk with the reactor than it is calcium, they both come out of it in certain ratio`s. Alk being the major portion.

Most systems will see their alk top out long before they reach the calcium they wish to see, using a reactor..as is the case with my system.

My alk gets so high, i have temorarily shut the reactor down.
I will hit an alk of high 4`s meq/l long before a Ca of 400 is hit.
This is why many will also use a calcium additive to try and boost Ca without the added alk, this is why i have to run Kalkwasser aswell.
The reverse is true for Kalk, though it adds both aswell.

-What is the Ph Coming out of the reactor ?
- what is the Ca coming out of the reactor ?
- what is the alk coming out of the reactor ?
- what is your current effluent rate ?
- what is your current bubble count ?
-is the recirc pump on the reactor running ?

If we determine a few of these answers, we will find were the problem lies.

Marc.

That's why I think there is some precipitation happening. he could be bumping both levels up so high by adding so much that he is knocking alk out of the solution.
Sometimes it's good to get back to basics, stop running the reactor, bring both calcium and alk back to where they should be and start over slowly with the reactor :mrgreen:

[SuperFudge]

I agree marie,

But he hasnt listed his current effluent values...i didnt want to say shut it down if that isnt the source of the low values.

Since this is the reverse of what happens with most reactors, im thinking its dialed in incorrectly or...a something totally outside the reactor that are the culprit that havent been mentioned yet.

-heavy stocking ?
-small or inconsistant water changes ?
-low alk salt, wich already has been determined as part of the problem.
-overfeeding ?

[Jason McK]

I'm taging a long as I run the same problems as Darryl

[SuperFudge]

I'm taging a long as I run the same problems as Darryl

What are your effluent values and reactor rates Jason ?

[fishface]

here's some numbers for you Marc,

-What is the Ph Coming out of the reactor ? 6.3
-what is the Ca coming out of the reactor ? off the chart
-what is the alk coming out of the reactor ? waaaay off the chart
-what is your current effluent rate ? 30 drp
-what is your current bubble count ? 34 bpm
-is the recirc pump on the reactor running ? and yes

just outta curiosity, what's general parameters we might expect from a properly adjusted reactor? i understand there's a lot of variables but are there any general guidelines here?


-heavy stocking ? i wish
-small or inconsistant water changes ? 12g every 2 weeks, consistantly
-low alk salt, wich already has been determined as part of the problem. true this...
-overfeeding? not out of the realm of possibility... :redface:

i'm starting to get the picture here...but i'm just not sure of the fix on my own.


thanks again for your help you guys, it's very much appreciated!

[Jason McK]

What are your effluent values and reactor rates Jason ?

Not sure. have to get home and test

J

[Reefer Rob]

Jason, you mentioned adding Boraxo, I've never heard of that. Is that for boron? Won't that throw you KH readings off?

[Jason McK]

Jason, you mentioned adding Boraxo, I've never heard of that. Is that for boron? Won't that throw you KH readings off?

Borate, and sort of. But the addition of Borate will help in maintaining the PH stability. Straight Baking Soda tends to allow the carbonates to become exhausted leaving a carbonate starved water causing a drop in PH and then and increased in carbonate demand. The addition of Boraxo will increase the stability and make the effects longer lasting

BTW the actual mix is A&H 4 Boraxo 1

J

[SuperFudge]

Daryl,


The numbers look fine.

I would tweak it a bit, and gave a couple suggestions at the bottom of the post to do this...but before doing it...there seems to be something else that is the problem.

Looking at the numbers youve posted, the rates should have been adequate for a well stocked tank im sure.
What you are being left with is telling me there is waay to high of alk consumption...while CA is only having a moderate to low demand.

I noticed in another thread you are currently using the blu coral method..
Correct me if im wrong, but this requires that you feed quite heavily.
If the skimmer is not keeping up to the additional bioload, the alk will drop considerably as a result...while the Ca remains normal.
Has a low alk only been a problem since the new feeding method ?

I bet between the salt and heavy feedings, this is whats giving you the skewed parameters.

Can you wet skim with your current skimmer ?

If you are set on using the current salt, and want to try and get a bit more out of the reactor, I would increase effluent until ph has raised to 6.6-6.7 in the reactor.....probably closer to an effluent rate of a drop per second.
If ph is still climing beyond within the reactor (after a day or two) then add only co2 until this comes back down to 6.6-6.7.
When this stabilizes..48 hrs after last tweaking ,test.
Adjust again the same way if more is needed...monitor calcium to make sure this isnt increasing too much.

Marc.

[fishface]

I noticed in another thread you are currently using the blu coral method..
Correct me if im wrong, but this requires that you feed quite heavily.
If the skimmer is not keeping up to the additional bioload, the alk will drop considerably as a result...while the Ca remains normal.
Has a low alk only been a problem since the new feeding method ?

I bet between the salt and heavy feedings, this is whats giving you the skewed parameters.

Can you wet skim with your current skimmer ?

If you are set on using the current salt, and want to try and get a bit more out of the reactor, I would increase effluent until ph has raised to 6.6-6.7 in the reactor.....probably closer to an effluent rate of a drop per second.
If ph is still climing beyond within the reactor (after a day or two) then add only co2 until this comes back down to 6.6-6.7.
When this stabilizes..48 hrs after last tweaking ,test.
Adjust again the same way if more is needed...monitor calcium to make sure this isnt increasing too much.

Marc.hey Marc,

interesting questions here, unfortunately i started doing the blu coral thing pretty much when i started using the salt and when i got the reactor!! all new ideas and toys on the new tank.

this being said, i am running an RS-250 and skimming very wet...this on a total volume of around 145g's would be sufficient i would guess. should be safe with that. no? also, not that i test often but my nitrates and phosphates have be negligible when tested even after dosing the blu coral way. i'll check first thing in the am and post.

i did shut down the co2 around noon today to see if my numbers would fall a touch before restarting and then i'll try your tweaks to see if i can get it worked out.

thanks again!

[fishface]

well, after a week of testing on a daily basis and having some good concrete targets to shoot for, i've finally ironed out my issues with ca and alk imbalance.

i've been meticulous with testing and recording results: this is what i ended up with that works for my tank:
drip rate 185 dpm
bubble count 55 bpm
effluent ph 6.5

resulting ca, stable at 430
resulting alk, stable at 8.2 dKH

hopefully i'll be able to maintain these numbers and they don't go outta wack by tomorrow! :lol:

thanks agian for your help Marc and Marie!! patience is the key.
how's your battle there J? making any headway?

[michika]

Were you able to maintain everything?

[fishface]

yup, able to maintain those parameters...but now i'm battling a slight drop in pH. could still be salt. anyhow it's not too bad but it's dropped to 7.9-8ish so i started dripping kalk to see if it'll stabilize that problem.

if it isn't one thing it's gotta be another huh?

[michika]

What salt brand are you using?
I'm glad you were able to stabilize everything for the most part.

[fishface]

michika, i've been using oceanpure pro until last week but i'm really not happy with it and have since switched to reef crystals. only time will tell how that's gonna be, on a brighter note, the kalk seems to be working wonders at keeping my pH at bay, hopefully it'll bump that up a few points and i'll be laughin'.

[michika]

How about another update?

I'm following along because I suspect a similar problem is on the horizon for myself.

[fishface]

well...until this bucket's gone it'll have to just do. my numbers are in the vicinity of 7.95-8.1ish and i'm no longer dripping kalk as i'm just too lazy:redface: . i'm not into chasing numbers either so...i will go back to kent salt as i recall it had good Ca and alk parameters for reef tanks...

[FishFun]

I use oceanpure pro & my ph is a steady 8.2. I buffer to 8.3dkh I would like it higher but everthing is happy in my tank, & if left it would take awhile to drop passed 8. My calc is always @ 440ppm as well. I do about a 20g water change each month in a 230g with a 60g sump. I dont use kalk or have a calc reactor, I dont have the need so far but it would be nice just to be able to keep water more stable & add trace elements. Every system is diffrent, diffrent coarls, lighting, even water etc, so in one system one kind of salt works great, but that same salt may not do well in another. I tryed a couple diffrent salts including reef crystals but I had to add calc. Sorry to ramble just my to cents :wink: