Closed loop advice

[danny zubot]

Well since I'm not having any luck acquiring the new tank I want I'm just going to go ahead with a closed loop system on my current 65 gallon tank.

So what kind of flow should I be looking at for a 65 gallon tank? (36x18x24")

Are there good pumps and bad pumps for closed loops?

Is there a specific configuration that I should consider as far as hole placement for the intakes and exhausts?

I have hole saws for 1" and 2" bulkheads and plan to hard plumb everything.

thanks,

Danny

[Delphinus]

What do you currently have for circulation?

My biggest concern about CL's is that the pumps tend to have a heavier electrical draw than powerheads. A little easier to hide the hardware though, I suppose, plus you can have eductors. But the one nice thing about things like Tunzes is how ridiculously little electricity they use.

[danny zubot]

Actually, I haven't given energy consumtion much thought. I'm so sick of dealing with power heads that I just want to get rid of them. Right now I have 3x MJ 1200s and one JBJ ??? its the one that pushes about 600 gph through dual nozels.

If I could get Tunze's for cheeper than a closed loop I'd consider it but I'm doubtful about that.

What are eductors?:redface:

[Delphinus]

My biggest complaint about powerheads is that suction cups suck! Or that.. they fail to suck after a while. I pretty much switched all mine to magnet holders (or clip ons).

Eductors are nozzles on the pipe outputs that use a venturi/bernoulli principle to move more water, you get a fan shaped output of water movement. You need a pressure rated pump though since they put a lot of backpressure on the pump.
http://www.kthsales.com/website/vendors/Eductors/mixing_eductors.htm

I dunno I'm pretty happy with Tunzes but I agree they're costly. But the energy consumption is definitely a nice payback and they put out a nice flow. I even have one (one of the smaller models) in my FW tank.

On a tank like yours though I guess you're not looking at a huge pump, probably something like a mak4 or something like that would be adequate.

One nice thing you can do with a closed loop, I think people call them Calfo manifolds since Calfo was one who talked about this idea a lot, you create a loop of pipe that sits on the tank perimeter. Then you add as many outputs on T's down into the tank that you want. The nice thing is that this is a great way to get a customized flow pattern, while keeping the majority of the hardware out of sight.

[danny zubot]

I'm out for the weekend but I will definately be back to discuss on Monday.

[marie]

Here's some reading for when you get back :lol:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/short.htm

[littlesilvermax]

If I had that tank I would get an OM 4 -way and a dart pump.

That would arguably be an awesome combo!!!!!!!:mrgreen:

Little pricey, but 5 years from now you would say it was the best thing you could have done.

[BCOrchidGuy]

Power consumption isn't usually a big concern, people figure electricity is cheap at 5.5 cents a kilowatt hour but it can add up quickly. That being said I don't know what kind of power some of these pumps use but for sake of argument lets say one uses or is rated at 100 watts. That means the pump has to run for 10 hours to use 1 Kilowatt hour or 5.5 cents worth of electricity which means if you run the pump 10 hours a day 7 days a week you are looking at 100 watts x 10 (hours) x 31 (days) x 5.5 (cents/hour) = $17 a month give or take a bit. That all being said, if the pump is rated at 1000watts um for sure I'd stay with powerheads. I just did a quick search and found a dart that's rated for 3600gph uses 160 watts a Tunze 6100 is rated at 45 watts so the difference would be with the Dart $27.28 per month vs $7.67 per month for a tunze 6100. I didn't check price difference between the power head and the pump but you'd be looking at $20 a month in electrical usage difference between the two.

Doug

[Ruth]

Power consumption isn't usually a big concern, people figure electricity is cheap at 5.5 cents a kilowatt hour but it can add up quickly. That being said I don't know what kind of power some of these pumps use but for sake of argument lets say one uses or is rated at 100 watts. That means the pump has to run for 10 hours to use 1 Kilowatt hour or 5.5 cents worth of electricity which means if you run the pump 10 hours a day 7 days a week you are looking at 100 watts x 10 (hours) x 31 (days) x 5.5 (cents/hour) = $17 a month give or take a bit. That all being said, if the pump is rated at 1000watts um for sure I'd stay with powerheads. I just did a quick search and found a dart that's rated for 3600gph uses 160 watts a Tunze 6100 is rated at 45 watts so the difference would be with the Dart $27.28 per month vs $7.67 per month for a tunze 6100. I didn't check price difference between the power head and the pump but you'd be looking at $20 a month in electrical usage difference between the two.

Doug

Not doubting the #'s just curious why you based it on running a pump 10 hrs a day. I don't know about anyone else but my pumps run 24/7.

I have both closed loops and tunzes on both of my larger tanks (230g and 190g) On the 190 I have the closed loop being powered by a sequence hammerhead - through an OM 4 way and then split into 8 returns. I also have 2 Tunze 6100's. On the 230g I have 2 Tunzes and the closed loop is more basic and is just 2 returns and powered by a Mag 24.
Personal preference for flow and the ability to move and direct flow is definately the Tunzes. If you decide that you want more flow along the bottom of the tank - simple - move the powerhead. Not quite so simple with a closed loop.

When/if I ever set up my 300g cube I am not going to drill for a closed loop at all - all tunzes. the bonus for me is
- I don't have to drill my tank
- less plumbing to try and figure out and hide (plumbing impared)
- no leaky bulkhead that I am currently dealing with on my 110g cube
- I can play around with flow and change it in the future as corals grow or I change the direction I want the tank to go in.

That's just my thoughts:mrgreen:

[BCOrchidGuy]

Hey Ruth, I based it on 10 hours a day for two reasons, nice easy numbers, I like 10s and I like to have some of the flow shut down at night when the lights go off, still lots of flow but not as turbulent. I have two Seio 620s and an 820 in the cube, the 820 goes off with the lights at night.

Doug

[Ruth]

:mrgreen: I like 10 too - it is a great # and has never done a single thing to me :mrgreen:
I was just curious that was all.

[Delphinus]

5.5 cents per kwh - :lol: I wish! Hydro is good for being cheap, you guys have it great.

A quick check of my last bill tells me I paid about 9 cents per kwh - and that's not including the "transmission charge", the "transmission account deferral rider" (I am not making this up), the "distribution charge", the "local access fee" and the "balancing pool allocation", oh wait, that last one looks like a small credit, never mind.

So yeah, I dunno, $20 per month doesn't sound so bad on its own, but in some cases it may be more than that. But assuming that it IS $20 per month, that's $240 per year. Suddenly those Tunzes don't look so bad to me, and then there's the advantages that Ruth listed (ie easy to change around if needed and so on).

I guess I shouldn't knock the CL idea totally though. They do have their advantages, espescially with the Calfo manifold idea.

[littlesilvermax]

Power consumption isn't usually a big concern, people figure electricity is cheap at 5.5 cents a kilowatt hour but it can add up quickly. That being said I don't know what kind of power some of these pumps use but for sake of argument lets say one uses or is rated at 100 watts. That means the pump has to run for 10 hours to use 1 Kilowatt hour or 5.5 cents worth of electricity which means if you run the pump 10 hours a day 7 days a week you are looking at 100 watts x 10 (hours) x 31 (days) x 5.5 (cents/hour) = $17 a month give or take a bit. That all being said, if the pump is rated at 1000watts um for sure I'd stay with powerheads. I just did a quick search and found a dart that's rated for 3600gph uses 160 watts a Tunze 6100 is rated at 45 watts so the difference would be with the Dart $27.28 per month vs $7.67 per month for a tunze 6100. I didn't check price difference between the power head and the pump but you'd be looking at $20 a month in electrical usage difference between the two.

Doug

I actually made an electrical usage file:

http://www.members.shaw.ca/bkotrla3/Electrical/BA%20Tank%20electrical%20calculator.htm


I think your numbers are bit off, or a lot off!

5.5 cents /Kw
100 watt pump
24 hours per day

= $4.09 per month

A dart pump (160 watts or so) running 24 hrs a day would use $6.54 per month only on months with 31 days.:wink:

[danny zubot]

There are many good points made above, thanks to everyone.

I have considered getting Tunze's with controllers or some other type of wave maker. I like the idea of being able to move them where ever they need to be in the tank. Closed loops offer some very cool options for wavemakers though.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out what is best for the tank right now. Do I rip it down and drill the tank full of holes or do I spring for the tunze's and be done with it? Do I risk damaging the balance my tank is starting to find? I'm not sure, but that is why I need peoples opinions. With the exception of some hair algae the tank is finally starting to thrive again after moving a few months ago.

LSM your numbers from the calculator seem a little more realistic to me. I've heard that sequence pumps are quite reasonable in the efficiency so if I go the closed loop direction I'll most likley buy one.

Does anyone run a closed loop with SQWD's? How are they? I can't seem to justify spending OM 4 prices for a 65 gallon tank.

Can anyone suggest a reasonable Tunze setup for a 65 gallon tank? Nano's or streams etc?

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Danny, I have an idea. Not sure if you'll like it, but.....I'll offer it up!

I think the Hydor Koralia 4 pump is controllable on a Seio controller. You could pick up a few of those bad boys ($80) and a controller? They're small, relatively unobtrusive, and they've gotten really good reviews.

[danny zubot]

Hmm, not a bad idea at all. Just read up on them, 1200 GPH isn't bad, just one is equivelent to all of my MJ1200 combined. The site I looked at said they can be controlled by a JBJ pulse controller, which adjusts from 10 seconds to 6 minutes....

[Der_Iron_Chef]

What I read is that these pumps chatter a bit on start-up, but that the Seio controllers only slow them down considerably instead of totally shutting them off, therefore eliminating that chatter. I don't know, maybe I'm out to lunch! I don't know much at all about the different controllers.

[Quinster]

I guess I'm just trying to figure out what is best for the tank right now. Do I rip it down and drill the tank full of holes or do I spring for the tunze's and be done with it? Do I risk damaging the balance my tank is starting to find? I'm not sure, but that is why I need peoples opinions. With the exception of some hair algae the tank is finally starting to thrive again after moving a few months ago.

I did just this on my 180G thread...the center brace letting go helped the rebuild decision, but after 6+ years of a 180G full of powerheads, I decided to take the OM/Dart leap, and after @ 4 months I have no regrets. Re used 90% of the old sand and rock, and about 75% of the old water.


Does anyone run a closed loop with SQWD's? How are they? I can't seem to justify spending OM 4 prices for a 65 gallon tank.

I ran 2 SQWD's on my returns from my sump on my 180G prior to the upgrade, and I have to say for the dollar amount they ran fine. After switching to the OM and Dart though, I have since ordered a custom Squirt to replace the SQWD running on my 75G. I will still use the SCWD's on my frag system, but I really like the design and extra flow you get through the OM.

HTH

Quinn

[danny zubot]

I will still use the SCWD's on my frag system, but I really like the design and extra flow you get through the OM.


I realize the OM is higher qualilty and can handle higher flow, which probably works very well on your 180. My 65 would only demand SQWD I think.

[danny zubot]

I found this product http://oceanaquatics.com/store/product/860/Vortech-Ecotech-Marine/

Anyone have any experience with it? It claims to be controllable from 100 to 3000 GPH, but doesn't mension if the controller can create wave actions.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

It says "wave-like flow", but I wonder what that means, exactly!

[Delphinus]

They're really nice units. At the time they were first introduced to the hobby they were claimed to beat Tunzes in cost but in the end that's not really the case. But they are pretty slick units. For one there is no electrical part in the water. And with the controller they can create some serious flow patterns. There were demo videos from about a year ago, here check out this one from melevsreef, http://www.reefcast.com/episodes/reefcast15.mpg

The only real drawback to me that I see, it has to sit square on the glass so that limits your placement options and you can't rotate it to be at an angle to the glass like you can with a Tunze.

Otherwise though they are pretty darn slick little units!

[danny zubot]

Thats a crazy video! I could find a way to make that work in my tank. I emailed the tech guys from the manufacturer's website, and he said the controller would be available "this summer". I'm going to look into this one some more.

[danny zubot]

I guess the one in the video was run by a prototype controller, so the real controllers will be out this summer.

[TRS]

I run one of the EcoTech Marine VorTech pumps in my system and want another. The manufacturer really stands behind their warranty too. Initially the newer units had a defective teflon bearing which they promptly replaced. I only run it during the daytime hours. It creates some great current that the corals love and the fish like to ride too. The only negative that I have found is that the odd time a snail or star fish find themselves caught inside when the unit powers up in the morning. The controllers are supposed to be out soon.

[danny zubot]

Where did you get yours from?

[TRS]

Where did you get yours from?

I purchased mine new from a guy on Reef Central over a year ago now. Several Canadian retailers now offer them. Hidden Reef & Ocean Aquatics are a couple of them, but I am sure that other vendors on this board sell these too.