Cold Water Reef Plan

[Knobsmith]

Well, I’m still planning, but I am almost at the spending stage. I have attached a diagram showing my proposed set-up. Here is my shopping list:

Aqualogic insulated tank (48” x 18” x 24”) with dual pane acrylic front and acrylic lid.
Pacific Coast Imports ¼ HP chiller
Euro-Reef RS-80 Skimmer
Coleman Cooler (Sump), will add acrylic lid and dividers.
Return pump (600-1000 gph)
Basic fuorescent lighting (nothing fancy)
Plumbing, etc. etc…..

Please let me know what you think and if I have made any obvious errors.

[fishmaster]

Looks good, you might want to add some more flow other than your return though. Where do you get aqualogic tanks?????
Shaun

[Knobsmith]

You are right. A power head or two should take care of that.
AquaLogic quoted me direct. http://www.aqualogicinc.com/products/tanks/insulated.htm
Nice looking tanks. I'm just waiting to see how much the freight is going to cost. Wish I could find something similar local.

[fishmaster]

How many galons is that?

[Knobsmith]

70 Galons if I go with the 1" insulation.

[fishmaster]

A 1/4 horse chiller shoud have enough pull down for that tank. Don't forget to factor in your sump as well. For the extra money a 1/3 might be a better choice as you can use it on a much bigger tank if you decide to go bigger down the road. Also, make sure the one you buy has a thermostat that goes low enough. Some only go down to 15 degrees. You might want to consider a drop in over a flow through-one less thing to plumb.
Shaun.

[Knobsmith]

Thanks. A drop in sounds like a good idea. I think with the insulated tank and sump that a 1/4 HP will do fine, but I see your point about flexability for the future.
What do you think about the filtration? Is the combination of the skimmer and the refugium going to handle the load? I plan on growing some algae and having some barnicle clusters and rock down in the sump/refugium.

[justinl]

the filtration will be ine. bioload rules apply the same to coldwater stuff same as tropical SW. coldwater stuff have lower metabolism i believe but it's better to err on the side of caution. just watch your nitrogen levels.

you may want to rethink the barnacles. I was discussing that with someone else on canreef. if you get those small intertidal barnacles, they very well may infest your tank... kinda like the aptaisia of coldwater.

Don't bother getting giant barnacles. I got some experience with these. They die. that simple. they need lots of food that isn't provided in a home aquarium (unlesss you know what to feed. i don't think it's worth the effort) otherwise they will starve. they can quickly foul water but it's hard to know when they die until they're really decomposed. whenever i take these dead shells out of the water, i gag at the smell. thank god those tanks are flow through (plumbed to le ocean) otherwise they would have crashed for sure.

[fishmaster]

Well, I'm still in the building/reasearch phase like you. What I can tell you is info that I have researched and planned on my own. I would totally avoid the barnicles, they can cover everthing in your tank over time. If you want a filter feeder, oysters would be a better choice. I don't know how much they would improve your water quality though.I plan on running a sump with macro as well, a skimmer, charcoal & phos. media, and a uv-to kill barnicle larvae:biggrin: I don't know for sure, but I'm assuming that local rock would act as "live rock". I can't find any solid data on this, so it would be a matter of trying it ourselves.

[justinl]

as far as i know the cycle thing witht he bacteria still applies to cold SW as it does tropical. same for FW at all temps. So i would set up the tank, sand rock, mechanics and throw in a frozen uncooked shrimp and then just watch the nitrogen levels (NH4, NO2, NO3).

so yah i would assume the local rock would be "live". but i could be wrong.

as for filter feeders, I would consider an oyster (only one so you can keep a close eye on it) . scallop would be fun too. if you want the ultimate cool filter feeder though, think about a crinoid. now those guys are fun.

huh i never realised there was actually more than one or two people on canreef really interested in cold water tanks.

[fishmaster]

One thing I've read about cold water cycling is that it takes alot longer than warm. It's recomended that you cycle your tank a little warmer-say 15 then slowly bring down your temp. There's some good info on wet web media, I think I did a search on "cold water marine"

[Knobsmith]

Thanks again. More great info. Not sure if you have seen this yet, but here is a thread from RC:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=890751

Amazing cold water set-up.
As far as local rock is concerned, I don't think it is as effective as it is not as porous as tropical rock.

[fishmaster]

I'm sure you could add some more porous base rock.

[justinl]

have you guys seen steve weast's coldwater tanks? OMFG amazing. he has some of the most beautiful set ups in the world and they're only experimental! shame about his tropical tank crash though. that had to suck big time.

[fishmaster]

His tanks look great! I've really got to get mine going! Going through that thread, maybe a sulphur reactor would be a smart addition. Although the macro sump could eliminate allot of nitrates. Some of our macro's grow at amazing rates.

[Quagmire]

Those tanks of his are fantastic.I think if I was closer to the coast I would give a cold water tank a try myself.As it is living in Calgary finding livestock would be very hit and miss.As far as cost,it seems you must spend $$ on a chiller,but the cost is offset by not having to spend alot on lights.Other than that,is it just the insulated tank that is needed? and the rest of the equip pretty much the same as tropical tanks?

[justinl]

yeah pretty much same equipment minus the chiller and acrylic or insulated tank. remember you save on lights and livestock as well if you collect wild.

[Dale]

If I could offer any insight at all it would be to determine what livestock you intend to keep and work backwards from that. If you are mixing species it gets very complicated very fast. A specific filtration system might service some species well while causing certain death for others. Dirty tank - clean tank??? Depends what you keep.
A related point to really consider as well is food sources. Unlike many tropical species that have commercial foods available to them, coldwater species are probably going to require live foods whether it be zoo plankton, phytoplankton or micro fauna. It may get pretty expensive to repetitively dose and skim your water column.
Also, where do you intend to keep the tank? If you set it up in an unfinished basement (or garage like I did) you could take advantage of the passive cooling offered by the cement slab floor. My sump sits directly on the slab and it pulls the temps down. If you go that route the insulated cooler/sump would be a detriment.
You can also reduce heat input by using a drilled sump and a larger inline return pump (not submersible). Tee lines off of the return to create more flow in the display thus eliminating intank powerheads that will add heat to the system. I eliminated about 5*F by doing this.

Just some thoughts to keep the ball rolling.

[justinl]

just to add to the livestock question: since most coldwater tank owners will be collecting their livestock wild, it is hard to work backwards from something you can't really predict by species. instead think about WHERE (deep? shallow? intertidal?) you're collecting from and what general creatures you want (coral? fish? inverts?).

Dale has a point that all these creatures have different requirements that you may not be able to meet, so it would be best to research GENERALLY before diving and know what you might enncounter when collecting. That way you can pick and choose what you want without too much worry about its needs.

[danny zubot]

Wow, after browsing "Steve's" pics on RC its like a whole new world full of alien creatures. We get so used to seeing the typical Reef aquarium creatures that we can become numb to their beauty. Seeing these new fish and inverts makes me wonder if a cold water tank is in my future. I'll be watching the progress made here.

Danny

[Knobsmith]

Hi Dale,
Thanks again for your input. A larger in line return pump with multiple returns makes sense. As for passive cooling, it's not going to work for me. This tank is going in my living room and I have radiant heating in the floor.
BTW I'd be careful with your sump on cement. I have worked a little with glass and I've been told that you should never have glass and cement in contact. Something about a chemical reaction between glass and cement that causes the glass to break. I think that any layer between them (maybe even paint) would eliminate this problem.
As for filtration, it seems that there are many schools of thought out there. Ive seen everything from aggresive skimming, treat it like fresh water and even "I've had mine running for years with an under gravel filter only". I geuss I'll just take it slow and keep an eye on things. I only live a few blocks from the water, so if I have to send anybody back home, it's not a big deal.

[Quagmire]

Hey Danny,maybe if a few of us in town here are interested enough,we can come up with a plan for finding livestock.

[Coldwater]

Woh I just say this thread now. You made a very good choice getting an insulated tank. When I had my tank running for just a short bit I had crazy amounts of condensation on the glass. Local tanks are truly better than the tropical ones.

Matt

[fishmaster]

Hey Danny,maybe if a few of us in town here are interested enough,we can come up with a plan for finding livestock.

I'll trade you a cooler full of cold water critters for a cooler full of frags!!!:mrgreen:

[Quagmire]

I'll trade you a cooler full of cold water critters for a cooler full of frags!!!:mrgreen:

That is definatly not out of the question :biggrin: But it would have to get a chiller and proper tank first

[Dale]

Thanks for the sump tip KS, I'll look into that. My current sump is a rubbermaid while I build my drilled permanent one (for the inline return pump) so I'm good there for now.

As for filtration I can only say again that the best plan is to work backwards - the species will determine what is best. My first foray into collecting taught me that. I gathered some macro algae, hermits, snails, barnacles, clams and oysters. All went well for awhile then the snails began eating the macro, the hermits attacked the snails and the barnacles, clams and oysters began to die off and foul the tank. In retrospect, I don't think I could have kept a new set up dirty enough for those types of filter feeders.

My sober second attempt is going much slower but is much more satisfying. I am plumbing three tanks together to create a display, refugium and sump. I have about 70lb's of LR cured at cold temps now with another 80lb's or so on the way. At the moment the system is housing a school of redear sunfish (a local FW species). They are nice fish and allow me to see how the system will function before converting to SW.

The current tank temp in the garage without a chiller is 61*F (with a temporary submersible return pump). With the pump turned off it's 56*F :biggrin:

[fishmaster]

Dale quotes:
"At the moment the system is housing a school of redear sunfish (a local FW species). They are nice fish and allow me to see how the system will function before converting to SW."

I used to keep those when I lived over there. As well I had black crappies in the tank. Neat fish, easy to keep.
Shaun.

[danny zubot]

Stupid question, how cold does a cold water tank have to be? My basement will keep standing water at 66F no problem. :wink:

[Coldwater]

Stupid question, how cold does a cold water tank have to be? My basement will keep standing water at 66F no problem.

In the winter the west coast of the island is about 9 degrees Celsius. 66 degrees Fahrenheit is about 19 degrees Celsius. It can be around 8-14ish degrees Celsius (46-59 degrees Fahrenheit) at the most or less. What ever you want. The ocean temperature doesn't really change temperature much during the seasons.

Matt

[Dale]

Depends on what you call cold water.

Conventional thinking is that subtidal species from our latitude will probably need temps with an upper limit of 55*F or so. You may get away with 66*F with some hardy intertidal/tidepool species as they are used to greater temp fluctuations (but they do get a regular drop of temps when the tide comes in) while some species like the three spine stickleback can take higher temps in the mid sixties. It all comes down to livestock selection.

I toyed with the idea of keeping a tank at higher temps (without a chiller) but by now I am convinced that one is needed to knock the temps below 60*F at least. In your case a small chiller combined with reduced heat inputs and evaporative cooling might be all that is needed.

[Coldwater]

Depends on what you call cold water.

Conventional thinking is that subtidal species from our latitude will probably need temps with an upper limit of 55*F or so. You may get away with 66*F with some hardy intertidal/tidepool species as they are used to greater temp fluctuations (but they do get a regular drop of temps when the tide comes in) while some species like the three spine stickleback can take higher temps in the mid sixties. It all comes down to livestock selection.

I toyed with the idea of keeping a tank at higher temps (without a chiller) but by now I am convinced that one is needed to knock the temps below 60*F at least. In your case a small chiller combined with reduced heat inputs and evaporative cooling might be all that is needed.

Sorry my bad. I should have said thats what the temperature I run my tank at. Since I have stuff from a little deeper down.

Matt

[Scavenger]

I toyed with a cold water tank a couple years ago and posted some research results at the time.
In short, I contacted the DFO and was told collection is legal with a fishing licence and you must observe quotas. (The exact email is somewhere on this forum if I remember correctly.)
As for temperature and species selection, I found this a great site for potential species.
http://hmsc.oregonstate.edu/projects/msap/index.html
And for insperation,
http://www.racerocks.com/
Hope this helps. Hmmm got me thinking of doing this again. (And I blame you all!! LOL!)