Complex Setups: What gives?

[Moogled]

Hey guys, I've noticed that reef setups with plumbing/sumps and electronic hoodickeys seem to yield better results than tanks with HOB skimmers and other misc. items inside the tank.

What are your guys' reasons for a more complex setup and what differences have you experienced using such methods?

[Todd]

Perhaps one reason for the better results that you are seeing is that the 'complex setups' usually belong to experienced reef keepers while the 'simple tanks with a HOB skimmer' are more often found on the smaller tanks of people newer to the hobby.

[Jason McK]

I agree with Todd. It's the people that are obsessed that endulge in the more elaborate set ups and may spend more time and Money than others. These are the same people that might be willing to spend more money on unique corals as well.

J

[Delphinus]

I think you can have a nice setup that is simple. Or for that matter, you can have a complex setup that's having trouble.

Having said that though, you mentioned sumps, and I think this is a good example for getting into the "why's". To me having a sump makes things SIMPLER not more complex. Yes there is some plumbing involved but it's a one time setup. After that, you have a place to hide your heater, skimmer, etc. and you increase your water volume. It only helps, and it helps to make your maintenance a simpler task. And therein lies the crux: the extra infrastructure support making the mundane tasks simpler.

And thus you get into the really crazy things. It seems like a lot of equipment but each thing is intended to make some ongoing facet, something simpler.

Ultimately it's up the reefkeeper to understand the processes involved. Having a piece of equipment that one doesn't fully understand, is missing the boat, in my opinion. One have to understand why (and how) they're doing something, otherwise they'd probably risk doing it wrong.

[Moogled]

I agree with what you all said. Understanding how a certain item contributes to a tank is central to success.

What is another example of a piece of equipment that makes the overall reefkeeping experience easier?

The complexity that I'm thinking of is aimed towards the equipment setup itself. As Tony mentioned, you can have a large system with a complex setup that has problems while a smaller tank can be very successful.

In light of that, would superior experience itself play a larger role in maintaining a tank than all the reef tank add-ons which ultimately make the maintenance tasks easier?

[fishface]

well, i'm in the midst of setting up a nice 120g with sump, canopy, controller etc. i'm currently running a "ghetto" 25g that's really starting to resemble an "eye sore". i've got a 250w MH light hanging from the ceiling, an HOB skimmer and refugium with a clip on fan. talk about salt creep man!

that said, now that i know i enjoy this enough to take it to the next level, i'd like to have a system that's a little more all encompassing, stable and automated. this, i believe to be easier to maintain and makes it better looking, more stable and overall more enjoyable in the long run.

[marie]

My simplest, easiest to maintain and arguably my most successful tank was my 40g, 3 maxijets, a bakpak skimmer, vho lights and a heater
right side
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/mariesnell/2752fdd6.jpg

left side
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/mariesnell/c1e45688.jpg

unfortunately I had to tinker and upgraded

[Beverly]

Wow! Nice tank, Marie :biggrin: How long had it been running at the time of the photos?

Moogled said:
In light of that, would superior experience itself play a larger role in maintaining a tank than all the reef tank add-ons which ultimately make the maintenance tasks easier?

We've been reefing for the last 8-9 years and currently have a 120g - no sumps, no skimmers, or refugiums in any of the many tanks we've had over the years. Currently our most sophisticated pieces of equipment are a pH probe and digital pH readout thingy, a refractometer and, haha, a turkey baster, not to mention alk/Ca/Mg test kits and chemicals. While I'd like to go
larger our condo just doesn't have the space for it, but I'd do the larger tank the same way we've done all the others. Costs are less for equipment, but there's a bit more elbow grease involved, which I don't mind.

Experience in this hobby makes a huge difference, IMO. I know in our first reef, we never tested for alk, Ca or Mg. I'm surprised the tank did so well with such terrible chemistry neglect. Now that I've been keeping a log of the uptake of alk, Ca and Mg for the past year or so, I can adjust the chemistry in the 120g without having to test so often.

[marie]

Wow! Nice tank, Marie :biggrin: How long had it been running at the time of the photos?...



That was my first actual reef tank and a lot of mistakes were made on it. At the time of the photos I think the tank had been set up for 4 yrs and had gone through every nuisance algae that has ever plagued reefers :lol: . Starting with cyano and hair, then the dreaded dinos (during the dinoflagellate attack I learned what phosphates were), followed by more hair, then dictyota and a mild reccuring cyano problem.

[mark]

Some of us just are just caught up in the mechanics of it as well. Seems sometimes I spend about as much time in the basement playing around my sump as I do in my tank upstairs.

[Snappy]

Hey guys, I've noticed that reef setups with plumbing/sumps and electronic hoodickeys seem to yield better results than tanks with HOB skimmers and other misc. items inside the tank.

What are your guys' reasons for a more complex setup and what differences have you experienced using such methods?
I think much depends on what kind of reef you want to keep. I find with my own setup the more equipment I add the better it seems to get, but I have a very crowded sps dominated reef. Now that said, I think one of my better additions lately was adding a refugium and it's very uncomplicated. However, in my limited experience softies & lps are a lot less demanding so require less equipment. So as mentioned it depends a lot on what kind of reef you want to maintain. Below is a photo of the top half of my tank and there is no way I can keep it healthy without a sump and skimmer.
http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/medium/what_s_up_2.jpg

[marie]

I think much depends on what kind of reef you want to keep. I find with my own setup the more equipment I add the better it seems to get, but I have a very crowded sps dominated reef. Now that said, I think one of my better additions lately was adding a refugium and it's very uncomplicated. However, in my limited experience softies & lps are a lot less demanding so require less equipment. So as mentioned it depends a lot on what kind of reef you want to maintain. Below is a photo of the top half of my tank and there is no way I can keep it healthy without a sump and skimmer.
http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/medium/what_s_up_2.jpg


Ok I'll bite :mrgreen: . Sps aren't that demanding of fancy equipment. Here is an old pic of my 75g, sumpless, 2 175w metal halides, 3 maxijets and a Prism Pro Hob protien skimmer. This picture was taken just before I took it down.
http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/2202005_1125tank0030.JPG

[Chaotic Cricket]

I found the more equipment I have added over the years the more knowledgeable I've become about things and simply want to automate the process. I do not think the process should be automated that much for someone starting out, you need to learn somehow. That being said some people get off so to speak on having all that equipment, it strokes their egos a bit. Ever seen the people who take up golf or running or squash or biking and have the "pro gear" before they've even tried the sport? Those type of people are in everything its funny when you realize who they are :) Lastly don't forget that it does cost quite a bit of money to automate your system, and you must decide if the hobby/pets are worth that kind of money spent on them. Same as if someones cat gets sick some people would rush them to the 24hr emergency animal hospital, some will just buy another cat.

[albert_dao]

I found the more equipment I have added over the years the more knowledgeable I've become about things and simply want to automate the process. I do not think the process should be automated that much for someone starting out, you need to learn somehow. That being said some people get off so to speak on having all that equipment, it strokes their egos a bit. Ever seen the people who take up golf or running or squash or biking and have the "pro gear" before they've even tried the sport? Those type of people are in everything its funny when you realize who they are :) Lastly don't forget that it does cost quite a bit of money to automate your system, and you must decide if the hobby/pets are worth that kind of money spent on them. Same as if someones cat gets sick some people would rush them to the 24hr emergency animal hospital, some will just buy another cat.


I always buy the best stuff... :(

I'll pay for quality.

[Chaotic Cricket]

I simply meant you can dose yourself without a dosing pump, you don't need a calc reactor you don't need a mixing station you don't need a controller. They are all optional, not needed for success only to automate it :)

[Der_Iron_Chef]

This has been something I've been thinking about for quite some time. It seems like, in general, you're legit as a saltwater aquarist *only* if you have certain lighting, certain skimmer(s), plumbing that would make Bob Villa's head spin, and a Starphire tank all-around. There's a certain amount of bravado and narcissism when it comes to equipment. Let's be honest: if you see words like Geisemann, Vortech, Tunze and/or Bubble King in someone's signature, you're probably more likely to listen to what they have to say (ie. take them more seriously). Fact of the matter is, it just takes lots of money to have these pieces.

Bottom line: you can have a brilliant reef aquarium with lower cost equipment. As Beverly said, it just takes a little (or a lot) more elbow grease. I think there are definite benefits to having sumps and refugiums and what-not, but to say that they're a "must" is inaccurate.

[rickjames]

What is another example of a piece of equipment that makes the overall reefkeeping experience easier?


Light timers, top off resevoir/float valve, and Calcium Reactor. I would go crazy without them.

I think there is a couple of reasons why complex tanks overall seem to do better. The biggest is experience. Usually everyone starts off with a little tank with a HOB skimmer and some maxijets. You don't usually see a newbie with Reactors/timers/wavemakers etc right away. An experienced reefer could run an excellent tank without that stuff. But it would be WAY more work.

Another reason is that while a setup might look complex, the goal is usually automation of the mundane tasks. Turning on/off lights, toping off the tank, replenishing Ca/Alk, making water current. When all of that is taken care of, you really start to enjoy your tank. You get to use your "reefing time" to do things you might not have had time for otherwise. Like tweaking Ca/ALk/Mg levels. Checking each coral colony for polyp expansion, health, and growth, feeding your fish and watching the frenzy, nuking those aptasias. Epoxying that frag you got last month to the rock instead of it rolling around on the bottom of the tank. :wink:

My tank is in a public office so I usually get a lot of questions about how hard it is to maintain and why it looks so clean. I always tell them "you get out what you put in". A complex setup will help, but the more time you put in to a tank the better and healthier it will look.

[Chin_Lee]

Complexity is a very relative term in this hobby. When starting out in this hobby, just learning about the balance between pH, Alk, Cal, Mg had my mind spinning. As I became more familiar with the basics, my curiousity into other aspects of the hobby expanded to Calcium reactors, kalk dosing, skimmers etc.
I currently have a lot of "gadgets" in and out of my sump and while they may seem overwhelming, each and every item has a specific function to simplify the complexity of the hobby. Understanding the functionality of each gadget will reduce the perception of complexity.
As complex as some systems may be, there is not one guaranteed recipe of success when putting together a tank which results in continuous modifications and improvements to our existing "already-complexed" systems. Fortunately this is where new ideas and methods are created and the internet has provided the gateway for the new information to be shared and tried by other hobbyists - a positive cycle of information sharing.

[kwirky]

Complexity is a very relative term in this hobby. When starting out in this hobby, just learning about the balance between pH, Alk, Cal, Mg had my mind spinning. As I became more familiar with the basics, my curiousity into other aspects of the hobby expanded to Calcium reactors, kalk dosing, skimmers etc.
I currently have a lot of "gadgets" in and out of my sump and while they may seem overwhelming, each and every item has a specific function to simplify the complexity of the hobby. Understanding the functionality of each gadget will reduce the perception of complexity.

I have a DIY auto-top off that's not very complex, but it does make tank maintenance simpler. I just fill the 6 gallon glass jug with water, and it lasts about 2 days. It tops off twice a day for me, while I only have to fill the jug every second day. I do plan on upgrading it to something quite complex to just top it off straight from the RO/DI. It'll have an autofilling resevoir (to prevent TDS creep) and multiple float switches to add safety.

as for complexity for simplistic's sake, there's some people who argue the difference between calcium reactors and dosing pumps. I'm planning on upgrading to the way of the dosing pump because it's simpler than a calcium reactor and much simpler than measuring dosages on a daily basis.

[Delphinus]

That's exactly it - you do what works for you to keep things simple from your perspective.

In my case, I tried dosing and I tried calcium reactors. For me, nothing beats the "set and forget" part of the calcium reactor. If I go away on a trip, my tank sitter doesn't have to do any kind of dosing, just check to make sure things are running. For me, that's simpler. But if another way seems simpler to you, then that's not wrong either.

Basically Chin nailed it:
I currently have a lot of "gadgets" in and out of my sump and while they may seem overwhelming, each and every item has a specific function to simplify the complexity of the hobby. Understanding the functionality of each gadget will reduce the perception of complexity.
As complex as some systems may be, there is not one guaranteed recipe of success when putting together a tank which results in continuous modifications and improvements to our existing "already-complexed" systems.I totally agree. (Although it seems to me that was the point I was originally trying to make, so I guess I'm just agreeing with myself now. Haha oh well.) Point is, it only seems overwhelming if you don't understand what it's for. And you should not do anything if you don't understand why you're doing it. So while someone says "you should use halides" (or whatever), if you don't understand why you need halides, then you don't need them. As your experience grows and your interests shift, you may realize that you do one day need them. But until then .. it's whatever makes your tank work, that works.

[draco]

I would say start off small,Everyone I know has had a crash,the bigger the more expensive it is to recover,And if you start off simple you get a better understanding of how everything works.When you want to upgrade the best thing is to ask on canreef,there will always be someone out there that is upgrading one step more than you,you can get your upgrade for half the price of new.keep reading other peoples problems it helps so you dont make the same mistake.The people here know more than your local petstore,they have had these problems,the guy at the petstore needed a job!We started with a 55 gal with pc and now we upgraded to a 90 gal with halides and overflows and sump.I would have been lost with out having had the 55gal first,and with out the people here anwsering all my questions.Good Luck

[Ruth]

This has been something I've been thinking about for quite some time. It seems like, in general, you're legit as a saltwater aquarist *only* if you have certain lighting, certain skimmer(s), plumbing that would make Bob Villa's head spin, and a Starphire tank all-around. There's a certain amount of bravado and narcissism when it comes to equipment. Let's be honest: if you see words like Geisemann, Vortech, Tunze and/or Bubble King in someone's signature, you're probably more likely to listen to what they have to say (ie. take them more seriously). Fact of the matter is, it just takes lots of money to have these pieces.

Bottom line: you can have a brilliant reef aquarium with lower cost equipment. As Beverly said, it just takes a little (or a lot) more elbow grease. I think there are definite benefits to having sumps and refugiums and what-not, but to say that they're a "must" is inaccurate.

OK this post has been bugging me all day long - I guess cause I don't agree with it. I don't think that anyone has said that you need all the fancy equipment with the big price tags to have a successful reef and I believe that the variety of people on this board that run aquariums ranging from the fully automated - all the bells and whistles - to the super getto are all respected and their opinions are welcome.
A common theme of peoples advise to others that are having problems or simply asking questions boils down to
- research, research research
- ensure that you have good, balanced water quality
- ensure that you are providing the optimum environment to the critters you are keeping.
I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that you need a Bubble King skimmer, calcium reactor, MH lights, Tunze powerhead etc etc etc. to have a successful reef tank.
What has been offered up in the past is a recommendation to ensure - proper and adequete water flow, pristine water quality (however you choose to ensure that with a skimmer, water changes etc), and adequete light.
Sure there are people who have toys and yes some of them are expensive. It doesn't make them more knowledgeable to better reef keepers but it is their CHOICE to have those particular pieces of equipment.
I think you will get the self righteous on both ends of the specturm - those that beat their chests because they have all the bells and whistles - and those that beat their chests because they run low tech systems and spurn those that have all or some of the pricey equipment.
There are many ways to run a successful salt water aquarium and as long as you do your research, ask questions, and are humble enought to admit when you have made a mistake and take actions to correct it you will do fine in this hobby - with or without the gadgets - it's your choice.

[Myanth]

I'll chime in here but you have to remember that I build my system to be as self sufficient as possible and I don't dabble in expensive (okay really expensive) or really fragile livestock. I don't overload on Bio producers and I have a huge cleaning crew (approx 100 hermits and 80 snails, not including the ones breeding in the rock)

I have a lot of liverock. 140lb in a 90 gal tank with 15-20 gal sump. I think that is the most important part. I have two 250W MH lights with parabolic reflectors. I change 10-15 % water once a month. I use filtered well water which is already high in calcium. I have a sump and a SEIO pump in the tank. Water flow is as essential as liverock. I would not run without a skimmer and I got a bubble king from Snappy that is trouble free.

I add nothing as a general rule. The minor water changes keep everything pretty much up. I add calcium if my coral growth rate seems slow (I do measure first) and magnesium if my KH is too high, which my well water seems to contribute to.

I have recently been running a 50 micron filter in the sump for esthetics, keeping the water clear.

I have macro algea growth in the tank which seems to keep phospates down.

Basically I like to have a functioning ecosystem. And it works for me.

I feed the eleven fish I have only twice a week and only about a quarter sized frozen piece of mysis. And some Nori on no real schedule.

It works for me, but only after a lot of learning and a lot of research.

It really does take a lot of work to be this lazy.

[Chaotic Cricket]

I'll chime in here but you have to remember that I build my system to be as self sufficient as possible and I don't dabble in expensive (okay really expensive) or really fragile livestock. I don't overload on Bio producers and I have a huge cleaning crew (approx 100 hermits and 80 snails, not including the ones breeding in the rock)

I have a lot of liverock. 140lb in a 90 gal tank with 15-20 gal sump. I think that is the most important part. I have two 250W MH lights with parabolic reflectors. I change 10-15 % water once a month. I use filtered well water which is already high in calcium. I have a sump and a SEIO pump in the tank. Water flow is as essential as liverock. I would not run without a skimmer and I got a bubble king from Snappy that is trouble free.

I add nothing as a general rule. The minor water changes keep everything pretty much up. I add calcium if my coral growth rate seems slow (I do measure first) and magnesium if my KH is too high, which my well water seems to contribute to.

I have recently been running a 50 micron filter in the sump for esthetics, keeping the water clear.

I have macro algea growth in the tank which seems to keep phospates down.

Basically I like to have a functioning ecosystem. And it works for me.

I feed the eleven fish I have only twice a week and only about a quarter sized frozen piece of mysis. And some Nori on no real schedule.

It works for me, but only after a lot of learning and a lot of research.

It really does take a lot of work to be this lazy.

So would you still put two clowns in ten gallons :)

[KrazyKuch]

Personnaly I have Skimmer, Kalk Reactor, Calcium Reactor, Coil Denitrator, Auto Top Off....All of which I have built my self or was built for me Which I find saves you tons of money if you DIY everything....My skimmer I built cost me $80 and it is equivelant to something that would cost around $500....

and Like Bev Said none of it is neccissary, I have them because I am lazy and don't want to dose everyother day and do weekly water changes so this equipment lets me go longer between water changes!!

[BMW Rider]

For me, the complexity is for simplicity. I love my tanks, but I don't want to be tied down by them, having to be continously checking this, adding that, feeding, testing, etc. I do usually fiddle and tweak daily, plus I feed daily some frozen food and nori. Additional twice daily feedings are done with a feeder. That way the fish are used to dry food and I can set the feeder for a bit more and all is good for an extended absence. Same goes for the automation, the tank runs pretty stable without any additives needed except on rare occasions, so it will be fine if I'm not there for a week or more. There's enough top off water to get through at least a week. I can add a larger auxilliary resevoir for longer trips. I also have power backups for the critical return pumps. I still have someone come by and make sure all is running a few times if I'm away fro more than a couple of days, but I know that barring disaster, the tanks will survive just fine without me while I'm away. They might be a bit gross with algae when I return, but that is a minor thing to cleanup again.

I don't buy the fancy name brand equipment, some of it is just way to pricey for me. I like to DIY when I can, but some things I've found are jsut too much work to DIY and make it operate reliably. For those I have bought premade, typically a decent product, but not the real high end stuff. Other things, like my CA reactor have been marvelous DIY successes for much less than the cost of buying.

I also agree with the concept that by making the routine chores less demanding there's more time to do other chores. Of course it can also lead to complacency which is something I've found myself falling to once in a while when other hobbies dominate my attention. Generally though, it just makes the reefing more enjoyable and less frustrating for me.

[Snappy]

That's exactly it - you do what works for you to keep things simple from your perspective.

In my case, I tried dosing and I tried calcium reactors. For me, nothing beats the "set and forget" part of the calcium reactor. If I go away on a trip, my tank sitter doesn't have to do any kind of dosing, just check to make sure things are running. For me, that's simpler. But if another way seems simpler to you, then that's not wrong either.

Basically Chin nailed it:
I totally agree. (Although it seems to me that was the point I was originally trying to make, so I guess I'm just agreeing with myself now. Haha oh well.) Point is, it only seems overwhelming if you don't understand what it's for. And you should not do anything if you don't understand why you're doing it. So while someone says "you should use halides" (or whatever), if you don't understand why you need halides, then you don't need them. As your experience grows and your interests shift, you may realize that you do one day need them. But until then .. it's whatever makes your tank work, that works.
These statements describe what I was trying to say a lot better than I did. However in my previous post I said I couldn't run my system without a skimmer, and that is true but I have a larger than average bioload. Last summer my skimmer crapped out on me for a few months and I battled huge algae problems because of it. It got so bad it was literally killing corals and took about 7 months to get rid of it. I agree with what's been said in that adding more equipment make the hobby less complex. I can now spend more time enjoying the tank instead of just always working on it. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed working on it and learned a lot but it seemed I spent most of the time just putting out fires. With a little more automated system it is now less hectic and has fewer emergencies. I still have a long way to go before it's fully automated so I still do regular maintanence but it's just easier than it once was.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

OK this post has been bugging me all day long - I guess cause I don't agree with it. I don't think that anyone has said that you need all the fancy equipment with the big price tags to have a successful reef and I believe that the variety of people on this board that run aquariums ranging from the fully automated - all the bells and whistles - to the super getto are all respected and their opinions are welcome.
A common theme of peoples advise to others that are having problems or simply asking questions boils down to
- research, research research
- ensure that you have good, balanced water quality
- ensure that you are providing the optimum environment to the critters you are keeping.
I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that you need a Bubble King skimmer, calcium reactor, MH lights, Tunze powerhead etc etc etc. to have a successful reef tank.
What has been offered up in the past is a recommendation to ensure - proper and adequete water flow, pristine water quality (however you choose to ensure that with a skimmer, water changes etc), and adequete light.
Sure there are people who have toys and yes some of them are expensive. It doesn't make them more knowledgeable to better reef keepers but it is their CHOICE to have those particular pieces of equipment.
I think you will get the self righteous on both ends of the specturm - those that beat their chests because they have all the bells and whistles - and those that beat their chests because they run low tech systems and spurn those that have all or some of the pricey equipment.
There are many ways to run a successful salt water aquarium and as long as you do your research, ask questions, and are humble enought to admit when you have made a mistake and take actions to correct it you will do fine in this hobby - with or without the gadgets - it's your choice.

Ruth--

I'm sorry if my comment bothered you. It was not my intent to generalize, as my comment may have appeared to do. In my post, I said that there's a "certain amount" of bravado and narcissism. I hold true to this. Early into the hobby, I left a particular LFS in Calgary very discouraged and angry. The owner basically made me feel like an idiot because I didn't have two grand to spend on lighting and a skimmer. On the other end of the spectrum, the people on this forum have been encouraging and informative.

The point of my comment was to inform the newcomer (like myself) that the expensive gadgetry isn't necessary, even if someone will make you feel like an arse for the sake of a sale.

Again, I apologize if I've offended. I can admit to my mistakes, and perhaps I've made one here.

[adidas]

all the gadgets can make it easier to maintain things...

[andsoitgoes]

Damn, this is turning out to be a fantastic thread. The information provided on here and the debates that are being put on the table are fair, informative and all further the OP's initial question. I've found this to be a thread I continue to come back to, in order to review what other people have equipment wise, what they have to say, the years of experience, etc.

For example, Beverly's setup that is low tech and includes no bells, no whistles, yet her tank is stunning and she's been through the gamut of all different types of tanks.

Other peoples are fancy, they have calcium this and denitrating thats and whozits and whatsits and thingamabobs.

I'm just learning on how fluidized beds work, and what the benefit of a quality skimmer/extra sump space is, etc., etc. - I'm really amazed by the passion and level of knowledge here. Wish it was seen on more aquarium sites, and I think this is why I've been so drawn to the saltwater hobby, because in order to succeed (I mean REALLY succeed) you need to know what the hell you're doing, and that comes across through most people that post here.

Kudos, and I'll keep right along reading.

[Myanth]

So would you still put two clowns in ten gallons :)

Yeah.

Under the right circumstances. I did most of my research and experimentation with that ten gallon. It was a reef tank / quarantine tank for two years before I got it from a friend. I purchased 12 lbs of cured liverock and two clownfish when the ammonia levels were non-existant. Had a penguin 270 HOB filter with no media and a powersweep something, second from the smallest. Corallife 96 W light came when I couldn't get any growth from candy canes. Had seventeen species of coral, scooter blenny, two clowns and two cleaner shrimp, plus twenty or so hermits and assorted snails.

The clowns are getting on three years old and are breeding happily under their heteractis magnifica anemone. (picture in the invert thread from a couple of days ago)

Now would I ever subject a heteractis magnifica anemone to captivity in any size tank ever again. That's a different question. The time will come when I can not supply what this animal needs and I will be looking for a new place for it.

But two clowns in a ten gallon. Sure.

I would post pictures if someone let me know how to put them in the message. I can only seem to get them on as attachments. Duh...

[Ruth]

Ruth--

I'm sorry if my comment bothered you. It was not my intent to generalize, as my comment may have appeared to do. In my post, I said that there's a "certain amount" of bravado and narcissism. I hold true to this. Early into the hobby, I left a particular LFS in Calgary very discouraged and angry. The owner basically made me feel like an idiot because I didn't have two grand to spend on lighting and a skimmer. On the other end of the spectrum, the people on this forum have been encouraging and informative.

The point of my comment was to inform the newcomer (like myself) that the expensive gadgetry isn't necessary, even if someone will make you feel like an arse for the sake of a sale.

Again, I apologize if I've offended. I can admit to my mistakes, and perhaps I've made one here.

No offense taken Drew - it was "buggin" me so I felt I had to respond. I think my point is that it is a personal choice - what you want to/can afford to do. There are so many ways to have a successful saltwater tank and what works for one person may not work for the next. Some stuff is basic, some is very complex. Some people enjoy and make the gadgets work for them - others prefer not to or can't afford to, use them.
So basically whatever floats your boat or blows you skirt up - go for it. Heck I was the one on here a few days ago crying because I lost a bunch of really nice fish - and this was from a tank with a lot of expensive gadgets on it - all because of a tripped breaker:redface:

[Myanth]

Thanks to Christy I think that I've got this figured.
http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/medium/0701190007.JPG

New batch of eggs Jan 18, should be hatching evening of the 26.

Mike

[muck]

Thanks to Christy I think that I've got this figured.
http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/thumbs/0701190007.JPG

Well maybe.

Make sure you use the url from the large picture Mike.
Otherwise you did it right. :wink:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

No offense taken Drew - it was "buggin" me so I felt I had to respond. I think my point is that it is a personal choice - what you want to/can afford to do. There are so many ways to have a successful saltwater tank and what works for one person may not work for the next. Some stuff is basic, some is very complex. Some people enjoy and make the gadgets work for them - others prefer not to or can't afford to, use them.
So basically whatever floats your boat or blows you skirt up - go for it. Heck I was the one on here a few days ago crying because I lost a bunch of really nice fish - and this was from a tank with a lot of expensive gadgets on it - all because of a tripped breaker:redface:

Well, I agree with everything you've said! But you know what's frustrating for me? I don't want to pay lots of money for a crappy stand/canopy, but I have no DIY woodworking experience! I need a new stand to accomodate a new sump, etc. Hmmm. Maybe I'll try it out and be surprised by my mad skills. :smile:

[Delphinus]

You never know until you try!

And one other point, any stand you DIY is going to be so seriously overbuilt anyhow, compared to what you can usually buy. Look at a consumer stand, sometimes they're built out of melamine or MDF. Look at any DIY stand, and it will be 2x4's, 2x6's, cross-braced to the wazoo, you can park a CAR on most DIY stands I've seen and not worry about it one day giving out.

[Jaws]

I'll be the first one to chime in and say that buying the best equipment still doesn't ensure an excellent system. I've been in the hobby for almost three years now. I started out buying the best of the best, slowly accumulating it over time while I ran a 70G sytem with the HOB skimmer and the maxijets to gain experience. I've had my 180G tank set up for a year now and I'll tell you, it was far from easy. Even after spending thousands and thousands of dollars on equipment it all came down to the amount of time I wanted to put in to it. Thankfully I'm addicted to the hobby and time and effort was just as much fun as it was frustration. There were hours and hours spent turkey basting rocks, pulling off buckets of hair algae, and cleaning equipment. Attention to detail is key in this hobby. I feel my system is reaching a point of stability finally and I can enjoy the hobby a little more while spending a little less time. Keep in mind that it does take about a year to establish an appropriate amount of bacteria and even nutrients to have a healthy system so patience is just as important.

With all that being said, it was an excellent learning experience to watch the system mature especially when I added new components to it and could observe the impact each one had on the tank. For example, it was unbelievable to me to see just how much of an impact flow had on my tank. I had about a 30X turnover in my tank for about six months with all kinds of algae problems. Now I have a 55X turnover and I haven't had a problem with algae since. Even with a 40X turnover the algae seemed to disappear. It was partnered with a lot of manual removal of algae as well but the flow pretty much stopped the algae from coming back. In the end, just like mostly everyone else mentioned, the more higher end equipment I added just allowed me to spend less time overpowering the larger problems and more time to spend on the smaller details that can make a system really thrive.

[Doug]

And whats the matter with hang on skimmers. :mrgreen:

[Johnny Reefer]

I agree with the statement that complexity, with regard to this hobby, is relative. The definition of such can be as broad as there is people in the hobby.

As some of you know, I recently upgraded both my Reef and FOWLR systems. One of the reasons being to simplify things. But there is a point where I draw the line. I currently am not running my PhosBan reactor. It’s sitting idle in a closet. I run RowaPhos in a canister (along with carbon). I am not convinced...yet...that the reactor is any better than the canister and running the Rowa in the canister...for me...is simpler. While doing the upgrades I was considering a UV sterilizer. I decided to hold off on that....for now. I’m not sure that that is necessary and the downside to it is that it also kills off good stuff. And the day I get lighting that simulates Cumulonimbus cloud cover is the day I win the lottery. :biggrin:

But one thing that I really can’t get my head around is the benefits off a Ca reactor vs. manual dosing. I’ve never seen a Ca reactor, so I just don’t know much about them. (Ca reactor dummy here). I test Ca once a week. If it’s down, I go to the Reef Chemistry calculator to determine the amount required to bring it up to what I want. Then put a couple of cups of sump water in a jug. Measure the required amount of Ca and add it to the jug. Stir it up and pour it into the sump. Test the next day again. Done. I don’t find it to be much of a burden. Is there not a trade off of chores with having a Ca reactor? I get that it eliminates manual dosing, but what about maintaining the lower pH required within a Ca reactor? Also, does it need cleaning every so often? Then there’s the CO2. How much “hands on” does that require?

I guess, long question short.....what maintenance does a Ca reactor require?

Thanx much,

[StirCrazy]

I get that it eliminates manual dosing, but what about maintaining the lower pH required within a Ca reactor? Also, does it need cleaning every so often? Then there’s the CO2. How much “hands on” does that require?

I guess, long question short.....what maintenance does a Ca reactor require?

Thanx much,

nope, no PH problem on a properly set up reactor. no cleaning just filling once and a while and you could rinse it when you fill it. as for co2, I had a 30lb bottle and I would have to fill it every 6 months. media I would have to fill every 6 months also as I had a large volume on mine. PH was constant at 8.0 so no problem there.

Steve