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[danny zubot]

Before I get started sorry about the novel.:biggrin:

A friend of mine asked me to come over last night and take a look at his tank. He's been having problems keeping any type of coral or invert for a couple of years now but can't figure out why. Even the easiest of corals such as mushrooms seem to perish quickly, but at the same time his fish are very healthy. I have a theory but before I get into it I want to give you some back ground information on his tank.

90 gallon
100-110 lbs live rock (had it for 10 years)
Prizm skimmer
Ehiem filter (not sure which model)
Salinity 30ppt (haven't tested other chem levels with my salifert kits yet, but they should be within reef keeping ranges according to his recent tests)
2x 150 HQI with 4x65 watt PC actinics
4 various power heads in tank for flow
Doses 2 part CA/alk, MG, trace elements, iodine, etc.
Changes 20% to 30% every two to three weeks.

According to the above information everything looks ok right? I thought so, but after further discussion I started to develop a theory about what might be happening. As I gazed into his tank I noticed that his LR has absolutley no coraline algea on it. This struck me as odd, because even the grappiest base rock is prone to gather at least a bit of coraline. We got to talking about RO units when he told me that he has never used filtered water with the acception of a 5 month stint a couple of years ago.

I gasped! You see his house, as beautiful as it is, is quite old and uses copper plumming. So I asked what he used to treat his tap water? "Nothing"
I gasped again!

Now, before I point the finger at this malpractice as the culprit, I think we should keep an open mind about this, because we all know someone who used tap water in thier tank. Which may inhibit reefkeeping greatly in some cases but remember though, this rock has been in this tank for 10 years!

My theory is that prolonged exposure to copper and other heavy metals is what keeps killing his corals. Not only that but his LR has actually built up toxic levels of copper over the past 10 years. So that the LR will leech(sp) copper into his water even if he switches to filtered or treated water. Thus rendering his tank useless for invertabrate growth.

Does this seem like a valid theory to everyone?

I told him he may have to get rid of all of his LR before attempting to keep corals again. Possibly the tank as well, but I'm not sure how copper affects things like glass and silicon.

Thanks for your input.

Danny

[danny zubot]

Just another note to add. I have not ruled out chlorine as the culprit. The reason I'm not pointing the finger at that quite yet is because I have kept corals reasonably well using tap water in the past. Also, I have not tested for copper yet becasue I don't have a test kit for it. I just wanted to see if my theory is valid before I go any further.

Thanks again.

[mark]

Would be thinking chlorine as well if not treating or at least aging tap water.

Really wonder how much copper would be pickup up from the piping considering everytime you turn on a tap you're flushing some on the line. Plus in my old house when I cut into an old pipe always amazed at the amount of buildup inside the lines.


Was the tank ever treated say for ich?

[Mr. Scratch]

Yes I knew a guy a few years ago who purchased tank from someone who had repeatedly used copper in their tank (even the siicone tested positive for copper). Buying a test kit will defn work, maybe isolate some of the live rock and test it was well (if the water you use before it goes in the tank test negative for copper, and the water in the tank tests positive).
If the live rock has some kind of copper contimaination...well then..that would be up to your friend.

[Pescador]

I thought copper pipe got coated inside eventually especially being an old house.
I'd be wondering about chloramine and chlorine for sure. Chlorine can dissipate through aeration but chloramine can't.

[chwkreefer]

I'm with you for the copper. I had the same problem on a place I rented for a few years. The previoius place I was using water straight from the tap and the corals looked good. I had a bit of algae problem, but overall the tank looked good and their was no copper. I was still fairly new in the hobby at the time.

Then we move to this newer place and slowly (but not too slowly) my corals start to look bad. My mushrooms are always shrunk with their inside showing.

After doing some some reading and thinking it dawned on me it sounded like copper poisioning. I wasn't growing much for green stuff either so another reason to suspect copper. Sure shootin I tested the water and their were High levels of copper in the tap water. I picked up a Tap Water Purifier the next day which is carbon and a deionizer and started do water changes. I also picked up some PURIGEN and started running that in the tank as the rock had all absorbed the copper. All the calcium based rock had absorbed the copper. But things slowly improved. It took about half a year and adding some new live rock and dumping a few pieces that obviously were loaded with copper judging by the growth patterns from rock to rock.

I've been ramblin on so long I forgot the question forgive me, but all I can say is you can put me down for copper plumbing ruining your reef tank if you don't filter the tap water. I was fairly new to the hobby at the time. It would never happen now. Now I run a 5 stage water filter.

Bill

[christyf5]

Yep copper, I'd tear down the tank, replace the rock/sand and the silicone to be safe. Bummer.:neutral:

[midgetwaiter]

This is interesting, given the higher pH of the tap water in Calgary I would think significant heavy metal contamination is unlikely. Lots of older places, like my house for instance have copper pipes.

Aquarium Pharm makes a pretty cheap copper test kit, I'm not sure how good it is but it would be an easy way to start. Be sure to test the tank and the tap water, it's always possible that a silly guest or an accident resulted in a penny stuffed under a rock somewhere.

Chlorine is more unlikely to be the issue here. Calgary uses relatively little chlorine (no chloramine yet) and naturally being a gas it will be out of the water rater quickly. I don't treat any of my FW or FO tanks at all when I do water changes or top ups and the reef tanks only get it because of the clams and only if I haven't mixed the water overnight for some reason. It is possible for chlorine levels to be increased for a short period, bad run off from flooding for example, and that could cause problems but certainly not chronic problems for 10 years.

[Nate]

Hey Danny,

Tell Larry that I second your copper thoughts, and could getyo the necessary test kits/cuprisorb of necessary.

I too took a look at that tank, and saw nothing really wrong with it. I suggested he use carbon regularly, and not just the ehiem carbon.

NOt sure if he ever took any of my suggestions, but the tank looked fairly good, aside from the lack of algae.

If it is copper, at least he has probably never had a problem with ich!

Nate

[danny zubot]

Well since there's feed back that this is a probable theory I'll ask him to test for copper. I guess the reason why he hasn't been treating his tap water for chlorine is because a certain LFS owner doesn't, and told him that he doesn't need to. I explained that this reasoning is pure economics and not in the best interest of the corals.

Thanks everyone for your feed back.

[midgetwaiter]

Well since there's feed back that this is a probable theory I'll ask him to test for copper. I guess the reason why he hasn't been treating his tap water for chlorine is because a certain LFS owner doesn't, and told him that he doesn't need to. I explained that this reasoning is pure economics and not in the best interest of the corals.

Thanks everyone for your feed back.

The LFS owner gave him that advice because he really doesn't need to, Calgary is an unusual case in this regard.

[StirCrazy]

I agree with a copper idea but not from the plumbing. if you run your water for a min or two befor you fill you are not going to get any copper from the pipes. now he has had the rock for 10 years where did he get it from then and has he ever had coraline. if it was from a fish only tank it could have been treated with copper or some lfs might have given him bad info to treat with copper based products for a problem. more history is needed here. the cloramine in the tap water might be a factor also.

Steve

[danny zubot]

The LFS owner gave him that advice because he really doesn't need to, Calgary is an unusual case in this regard.

I don't really agree with this statement, can you please elaborate?

[midgetwaiter]

I don't really agree with this statement, can you please elaborate?

It's pretty simple.

There isn't very much chlorine in the water because it is pretty clean to start with. Chlorine will not remain in solution very long, agitate the water a bit or let it stand overnight and it's gone. Get a test kit and try it.

Chloramine does stay in the water but they don't use it here.

[danny zubot]

How long is long though? Long enough to negatively effect corals?

[midgetwaiter]

It would depend on the temperature of the water and the exact amount of chlorine, etc. My opinion, by the time you have mixed salt completely it should be gone. Small amounts of water added for top up wouldn't make a difference.

If it makes you feel better go ahead and treat your water. It's probably a good idea, DeChlor and such things are cheap and you never know what the city is going to do. In certain situations they do boost the amount of chlorine they add so better safe than sorry. You can usually predict when they're going to do that and personally I can smell the difference easily so I'll take action when I need to.

There's just no way that this is the reason for your friend's problem though, the chlorine doesn't stick around that long.

[danny zubot]

I wasn't aware that chlorine evaporated that quickly, or that Calgary doesn't add chloramine to their water.

I personally use RODI water because of all of the other nasties that are found in tap water. Such as heavy metals. I have noticed a positive difference in my corals because of it, and it tastes better.:mrgreen:

[Pescador]

Besides chlorine and high TDS there are some other inorganics that could maybe build up.

Inorganic Substances
___________Unit____ Calgary Water_________ Limit
Aluminum -----mg/L ------0.013 - 0.214 -----------0.1
Arsenic -------mg/L ------< 0.0005 ---------------< 0.025
Cadmium ------mg/L ------< 0.0005 ---------------< 0.005
Calcium -------mg/L -------39.8 - 69.9 ------------no limit
Chromium -----mg/L ------< 0.0005 - 0.0016 -------0.05
Copper --------mg/L ------< 0.001 - 0.003 -------< 1.0
Fluoride -------mg/L --------0.62 - 0.80 ------------1.5
Iron -----------mg/L ------< 0.100 ---------------< 0.3
Lead ----------mg/L ------< 0.0005 ----------------0.01
Magnesium ----mg/L --------10.6-18.1 -----------no limit
Mercury -------mg/L ------< 0.00002 --------------0.001
Nickel ---------mg/L -----< 0.0005 - 0.0011 ------no limit
Potassium -----mg/L -------0.461 - 1.636 --------no limit
Sodium --------mg/L -------2.24 - 7.84 ---------< 200
Zinc -----------mg/L -----< 0.001 - 0.003 -------< 5.0

Sorry for my crappy table.

[danny zubot]

Yup, there's a few in there that I wouldn't want building up in my water.

[mark]

do those water changes...