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View Full Version : Which VHO ballast?? Help


cvrle1
01-03-2002, 03:36 AM
Hey all

I finally have some money now and I want to get VHO lighting on my 33 gallon. I was just wondering which ballast should I get. I wanted to get icecap but if it's same as the once that albrite light is selling or some other lighting companies, and costs less money, then I would buy those once instead.

What shall I do??

Thanks

reefburnaby
01-03-2002, 04:05 AM
Hi,

Probably, the easiest way is to get a Workhorse 7 ( www.fulham.com (http://www.fulham.com) for details and wiring diagram). Its electronic and it will give you full power to your VHOs (and it will also have the 6 month thing too). One ballast per tube -- but only 75% of capacity is used

If you want to reduce the output by a little bit, but increase the life of your tubes....then you can drive the VHOs using the 2xF48HO. One ballast per 2 tubes. In this mode, it is also safe enough to drop in NOs to overdrive them like Icecap.

So...yah. 5 year warranty and they are about $70 each (I think).

The only problem was that I couldn't get Workhorse 7 in November -- they weren't in production yet. BUT...they are suppose to be in this month. So, a Workhorse 7 is basically two Workhorse 5s...so you can do it that way too.

The other problem is that these ballasts are instant start ballasts. So, they won't have the funky starting mechanism that Icecap has...which is suppose to enhance tube life. I expect a 30% life reduction due to instant start (vs Icecap start).

BUT...if I were you I would spring for the Iwasaki setup (1x250W). Instead of getting okay light...you'll get awesome lighting.

Hey...if we continue to do this DIY lighting stuff, we should get an account at Albrite and other stores. Say, we work for the reef club or something. That way we can get some kind of discount. Titus, could we use Canreef to start an account ?

- Victor.

[ 03 January 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]

titus
01-03-2002, 04:51 AM
Hello,

It depends. If it's like "Canreef Club" or something along that line than it's okay. But if it's the company name "Canreef Aquatics Ltd.", then no. How about the Vancouver Reef Club, MASV, or something like that?

I think we should get some articles written about lighting technologies. I see that we have a few people on this board who knows how bulbs are driven and how to rig up cheaper DIY wiring diagrams. This can drive more members to buy items from Albright and get better discounts.

reefburnaby
01-03-2002, 12:31 PM
Hi,

Hmmm...there are some problems with seting up an account with somebody like Albrite -- regardless of the company name. If somebody say..."yah...I work for MASV", at a store. All their purchases will be charged to MASV's account. This is nice if you pay for your stuff in the future...but we might have some problems if people don't pay back or if people order and they are not part of the club.

As for discounts, I think the only way you can get discounts is through an account. In general, an account tells a business how much stuff you buy from them. Based on how much you buy as a company, you will get a better discount. So, having more members buy stuff from Albrite will not necessarily bring the price down (as we have seen with the actinics 03).

- Victor.

clintyiu
01-03-2002, 12:36 PM
Hey!

The workhorse 7 has just arrived at Albright (604-945-9060) last week. Apparently Fulham had promised this product for over a year. The WH7 is $55 and the WH6 is $45+/-. Albright should have 16 WH7 left...they sold two in the past week.

Now if only the bulbs are more affordable.

Clint

DJ88
01-03-2002, 12:51 PM
Victor,

By setting up a cash payment account you get around the worry of people not paying the account off.

I had an account like this at Industrial Plastics. Once they see you are serious about making purchases you will start getting the discounts.. unless they start you out with them right away.. images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Troy F
01-03-2002, 06:51 PM
Hey Marko! Long time no see/hear.

Victor, the ballast you are suggesting runs VHO, HO and NO? Could you estimate the cost of a 4x110W set up using the WorkHorse? Compare it to the price of a complete IceCap 660 set up with tubes.

You said, "(and it will also have the 6 month thing too)". What do you mean by that?

StirCrazy
01-03-2002, 07:06 PM
well Troy, that would be easy.. the 4 bulbs would cost the same but each workhorse 7 will power 220 watts so you would need 2 total cost of 110 + tax. last time I checked a ice cap 660 was almost 300 cdn (for me to get) of course you would need wiring for both (wires and end caps for both) I also suspect the workhorse 7 will power the VHO to the full capacity (maybe if someone in victoria buys one I can check this out) so your bulb life might be shorter.. whare if you are going to run NO bulbs the end result should be the same.

Steve

DJ88
01-03-2002, 07:54 PM
Here Troy.. easier this way..

<LI>Icecap 660 - $269.00
<LI>Wiring Harness - $37.95
<LI>End Caps - $63.80($15.95 pr)
<LI>Lamps - $135.80($33.95ea (4xURI Actinics))
Total - $506.55 + $70.92taxes = $577.47

<LI>Icecap 430 - $229.00
<LI>Wiring Harness - $33.95
<LI>End Caps - $63.80($15.95 pr)
<LI>Lamps - $101.85($33.95ea (3xURI Actinics))
Total - $428.60 + $60.00 = $488.60


<LI>Workhorse 7 - $110.00($55.00 ea)
<LI>Wiring Harness - Built in
<LI>End Caps - $63.80($15.95 pr)
<LI>Lamps - $135.80($33.95ea (4xURI Actinics))
Total - $309.60 + $43.34 = $352.94

One_Divided
01-03-2002, 10:26 PM
I ordered a workhorse 7 earlier today.. I will experiment with it a bit.. sounds like a pretty versitile ballast.. I'll compare it with my 430..

It's $70 for me though.. what the hell? I guess I'll lie and say it's for my company and pay it there.. Hmm..

StirCrazy
01-03-2002, 11:11 PM
Adam let me know when you get it befor you hook it up maby we could try a exparament images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Steve

smokinreefer
01-04-2002, 12:48 AM
is there a workhorse that will run 6' bulbs?

i already have 2 40W NO actinics running on my tank now, can i just swap out the NO ballast for a WH7 and use the existing wiring and endcaps to overrun the bulbs that i am currently using?

adding stronger actinics was last on my list of things to do, but if i can just swap out a $55 ballast and get near VHO output from cheap actinics, then that would be cool.

thanks for the input, much appreciated.

StirCrazy
01-04-2002, 01:10 AM
hey that "near vho output" from a NO is verry misleading.. and it is comenly used when using NO in a icecap and compared to a vho in a ice cap.. the reasone people say it is because a over driven NO is close to a under driven VHO. as for will the work horse over drive a NO bulb... I don't know.. maby Adam will let me try it on a NO bulb and take a reading of the power when he gets his..

Steve

titus
01-04-2002, 01:32 AM
Hello,

For the account thing, maybe someday I can call them up to see what I can do. At the moment, I'm a bit busy working on a few different things here.

As for the IceCap pricing posted by Darren, I'll leave the endcaps and harness out. You can always go to HD to get a regular florescent endcap. This is what I use and John (J&L) use at home. So the IceCap actually is not as expensive.

StirCrazy
01-04-2002, 01:41 AM
why would you leave the harnes out? you need that .. unless there is a way to make one your self witht he plug that fits into the ice cap.. the end caps are the same for all.. water proof ones to be safe.. I use normal caps on my fresh tank but with salt creap I wouldent use them in a salt system... but who knows..

Steve

DJ88
01-04-2002, 01:47 AM
Titus,

Do you know somewhere you can get the harness for an IC ballast? I'd prefer not to go messing around with the pin connectors. The harness makes things a lot easier on the icecap. It comes bare. No wires or nuttin. Tho I do think new ballasts come with a harness now that I think about it. hmm..

As for the end caps.. For the peace of mind I went sealed. Too many times on ship things have failed due to corrosion when they looked fine.. But that ismy choice.. images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[ 03 January 2002: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

titus
01-04-2002, 02:11 AM
Hello,

I have a harness came with the 660 so I never knew why they sell extra harnesses. Actually mine was bought like what... 2-3 years ago?

As for the end caps, ya it'll be nice to have them and I'll most likely get them if I can go back to change things. But the regular stuff serve me just fine all this time.

StirCrazy
01-04-2002, 02:17 AM
hehe now days like anything else, everything is sold seperate. for a 660 and a harnes you are looking at 300 now. which is the main reason I started looking for alternatives.

Steve

titus
01-04-2002, 02:24 AM
Hello,

I forgot how the harness looks like exactly but I think it's some standard part that you can get from electronics store like DigiKey or even RP Electronics and Active Electronics. That way you can rig your harness with flexible stranded wires. I really hate those solid core ones. Too hard to bend. Imagine they use that for car audio speakers, routing through all those seats and holes and panels. Insane.

reefburnaby
01-04-2002, 04:48 AM
Hi,

Troy,

The 6 month thing. I was referring to the mythical replacement time for VHO lamps when a tar ballast is used. Since we don't understand / haven't proven how Icecap is able to extend the life of a VHO lamp, I assume that the workhorse 7 would damage the VHO like the tar ballast.

Shao,

The exact same ballast (WH7) can drive the 6 foot and even the 8 foot tubes. 6 foot are called F72VHO for VHOs and F72HOs for the reduced VHOs (basically HOs). So, just use those numbers to figure out the wiring diagram (as it turns out...the 2,3, 4, 6 and 8 foot have the same wiring diagram).

BTW, you can get the waterproof caps from Albrite too images/smiles/icon_smile.gif Don't know the price, but it might be cheaper from them.

Adam and Steve,

Just in case you don't have it, be sure to ask for the Fulham catalog when you visit Albrite. The catalog has all of the wiring diagrams.

Titus,

Actually, solid wires are suppose to sound better images/smiles/icon_smile.gif The interface between strands (insulation, oxide and etc) adds a non-linear component to the audio transmission. But...most people can't tell the difference because the rest of their equipment is causing more problems than the stranded wire.


- Victor.

BCReefer
01-04-2002, 02:44 PM
I work as a company as buyer so I have some contacts for electronic products. I spoke to a company called Data Networking regarding wire harnesses. I forwarded this thread to him so he can look at what we need, I am also going to research the Albrite catalog for the wiring diagrams and discuss this with him.

Is anyone interested in purchasing wire harnesses either completely assembled or partial. Due to the fact that they are a company their might be a problem with assembled harness requiring CSA approval but partially assembled could/should be OK.

Cheers,
Patrick

smokinreefer
01-04-2002, 09:37 PM
thanks fo rthe info victor,
1 more question tho'...will the WH7 run 2 6'VHO bulbs or just 1?

reefburnaby
01-05-2002, 12:24 AM
Hi,

WH7 will drive a single VHO to full power, but it can drive two VHOs to 70% power.

- Victor.

Troy F
01-05-2002, 12:50 AM
Hey Victor, thanks for the information. One more point of clarification; will the ballast power two of the 110W bulbs to full capacity?

Do any of you believe that IceCap is burning the VHO with equal output using less power because they are running them more efficiently? Is this physically possible?

One thing that has to be considered is that the length of bulb life is a huge factor in operating costs. Yes, of course, output is a major factor but if bulbs are costing as much as three times more on one system versus the other it would make any savings at purchase time for the workhorse almost irrelevant.

Using Darren's figures: if the IceCap runs the actinics for 2 times longer you'd really have to add $154.80 (price of 4 actinics including tax) to the total price. This is assuming you are using the IceCap as supplementation not as your primary lighting. If it is the primary lighting your savings would be even more. The Aquasun bulb is worth more than actinics and by IceCap's claims, last 18 months which would be 3 times longer than the WorkHorse and a savings of an additional $100 or so.

I'm not trying to sway anyone's vote here just wanted to point this out. I'd sure like to have some solid facts on the life of a bulb running on the WorkHorse and IceCap. I personally wonder if it is not the most important factor. Unless of course, you're rich images/smiles/icon_wink.gif .

StirCrazy
01-05-2002, 01:32 AM
hey Troy, there are a few good questions there.
1, "Do any of you believe that IceCap is burning the VHO with equal output using less power because they are running them more efficiently? Is this physically possible?"

I am not going to say it isn't possable maby they have desscover a secreat no one else has but I can tell you that ANY electronic balast will extend the life of a bulb over a tar balast by a fair bit and they will also make the bulb brighter. not because of any NEW descovery but just from the virtue of the frequency the bulb is fired at.. a old tar balast fires at 60Hrz and electronic balasts operat at frequencys of 20 to 40KHrz. This in efect creats a solid light output instead of a flickering output which means the light is ON more creatingg more light output.
IceCap has capatlized on these principles by bring out aa electronic balast in a time when everone was using tar and no one has questioned them untill now. now on a old tar balast you had to change VHO tubes every 6 to 8 months I would say one a electric balast powering the bulbs fully that time would be extended to 12 to 14 months (but this is a guess as I have not tried it and I am going by the results of my NO bulbs on my fresh water tanks. I have gotten twice the life out of them and they are a lot brighter sence I have started using electronic balasts)

now as for comparing price by how long the bulb lasts I guess I just made that harder.. people have to get rid of this "6 months" unless they are running tar balasts. IceCap clames 3 years on a VHO bulb befor changes and the way they are getting this is 1, using a electronic balast and 2, underpowering the bulbs.
Ash's figures were 270 watts consumed by 4, 110 watt VHO bulbs now asuming that the icecap is 98% efficient (which is about as good as it gets with todays electronic balasts) that leaves 264.6 watts going to the bulbs so you will be powering each bulb with 66.15 watts or only 60.1% of there rated power. so just like a car, you drive it nice and it lasts longer.

with this I don't have a problem with and I am sure everyone likes having there bulbs last 3 years, but what I wonder is if the icecap or a simular balast was powwering the bulbs at there rated power ie. 100 to 110 watts ( a workhorse 7 is rated of a load of 220 watts so even if they are including the waist in this figure they will still send ~107 watts to each bulbs as the workhorse balasts are 98% effecient)
now how much of a increase in intensity would this be?
would you be able to keep sps with 4 fully powered VHO bulbs?
and if so how much did you waist on MH because you thought you needed it but you realy only needed to fully power your VHOs?
these are the questions I have and am atempting to find the answers for.

Steve

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]

reefburnaby
01-05-2002, 02:44 AM
Troy,

Just to clarify, IMHO, I don't recommend VHOs because a Iwasaki setup costs about the same. At least with Iwasaki, you know that you have enough light -- VHOs are very setup and reflector sensitive. If you are really tight on cash, then I recommend the overdrive NO (T8).

On to the questions....

Troy,

One WH7 will power one (1) VHO to full power -- that is 110 Watts to the tips of the 4 foot tube and 165W to 6 foot tubes. 220W to 8 foot tubes... So, no you can not drive 2 (two) VHO to full power with one WH7.

If you are clever, you only need 3 (three) WH7 to power 4 (four) VHOs. You'll understand when you look at the wiring diagram.

Icecap can be doing a number of things. It can be driving harmonics in to the tubes (i.e high energy bursting) to get more light power to the tubes with less average power. That means it drives lots of energy for short durations, but not too much so that the tubes get too hot or break down. In some ways, we are doing that with the overdrive NO. It is true the switching ballasts (i.e. electronic) will produce a more solid output (rather than flickering).

However, since I don't own an Icecap, I have nothing to compare against. Since Icecap is fairly secretive about their technology, all we have are guesses. A simple probe with a scope (oscilloscope) should answer all of our questions to what it is doing. Any takers ? Please don't do this if you have no idea what you are doing -- it can smoke a scope really quick.

As for VHO bulb cost...they are expensive. You can buy ballasts that are less damaging to the tubes (i.e. enhance tube life). These are called program start ballasts -- IMHO, program start and Icecap start are roughly the same.

IMHO, tube life is largely dependent on the starting technique used and how many times the tube has been started. The more times it has been started, the less life it has. As the tube ends (electrodes) get damaged by the starter and blacken, the electrodes become less efficient and less light is produced.

SPS and fluorescents...

Wow...we are going from one contraverse to another. Please don't flame but...I am growing SPS on overdrive NO (two 6500K and one actinic - 240W total power consumed) in my 90. So, far I have a couple of montis and acros growing in the tank. They are not growing like wildfire, but they do grow. They are the orange/green/brown variety. When I feel brave enough, I'll buy a blue acro frag and see if I can keep them and keep them blue. images/smiles/icon_smile.gif Please don't try this at home unless you have take a light measurement of your tank. You need at least 7000 lux of light or 150uE/s to keep basic SPS.

- Victor.

Troy F
01-06-2002, 04:41 AM
Steve and Victor thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.