Who has used washing soda for buffer?

[Aquattro]

What brand and did you get soapy bubbles from it?

Thanks

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Arm & Hammer.

- Victor.

[Aquattro]

Victor, any bubbles? I used a brand called VIP and they treat their product with a surfactant. Like a box of Tide in the city water fountain!

[Delphinus]

Does your Arm & Hammer have a "fresh scent" to it? The boxes a bunch of us over here got had some kind of lemony-fresh zesty scent to it. Nowhere on the box does it say what ELSE there is in the box other than just sodium carbonate or bicarbonate whatever one it is. In the end, none of us dared to try it in our reefs because of that. If there is some additional detergent in there ...

The guys at RC who use A&H swear there is no scent to the stuff. The stuff I buy periodically ... it definitely has a scent. :? (It all ends up being used for laundry. Don't trust that scent.)

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

I think Arm & Hammer only sells their Super Washing Soda so I think you are smelling something else....your nose burning from the caustic powder ? :)

Washing soda is caustic and it will feel very slippery when dissolved in water. This can be confirmed by measuring the pH and it should be around 11.5. So, it is not a very good idea to smell this stuff. Washing soda is Sodium Carbonate and Baking Soda is Sodium Bicarbonate. You can also make washing soda by baking Baking Soda in the oven. Just bake at 350F for an hour or so. Again, you can use the pH method to figure out if you have washing or baking soda. Baking soda has a pH of around 7.8.

However, the main purpose of the 1 to 6 ratio is that the buffer solution has roughly the same pH as the NSW. Baking soda has a lower pH and Washing soda has a higher pH -- the correct ratio gives about 8.2-8.4 pH. There is nothing wrong with just adding baking soda or just washing soda, but the pH will temporarily shift a bit. However, this state is temporary and it will re-establish a new bicarbonate/carbonate ratio for the given tank conditions. The final ratio may be 1 to 7 or 1 to 6.5, but the water will automatically do that for us.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.

[Aquattro]

Hi,

I think Arm & Hammer only sells their Super Washing Soda so I think you are smelling something else....your nose burning from the caustic powder ? :)

Washing soda is caustic and it will feel very slippery when dissolved in water. This can be confirmed by measuring the pH and it should be around 11.5. So, it is not a very good idea to smell this stuff. Washing soda is Sodium Carbonate and Baking Soda is Sodium Bicarbonate. You can also make washing soda by baking Baking Soda in the oven. Just bake at 350F for an hour or so. Again, you can use the pH method to figure out if you have washing or baking soda. Baking soda has a pH of around 7.8.

However, the main purpose of the 1 to 6 ratio is that the buffer solution has roughly the same pH as the NSW. Baking soda has a lower pH and Washing soda has a higher pH -- the correct ratio gives about 8.2-8.4 pH. There is nothing wrong with just adding baking soda or just washing soda, but the pH will temporarily shift a bit. However, this state is temporary and it will re-establish a new bicarbonate/carbonate ratio for the given tank conditions. The final ratio may be 1 to 7 or 1 to 6.5, but the water will automatically do that for us.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.

Wonderful, but do you get any bubbles?? :?

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Bubbles...not really...nothing like dish washing detergent. Do you get bubbles when you mix kalk ?

- Victor.

[Aquattro]

Victor, I got tons of bubbles from the VIP brand of washing soda. Turns out they add a surfactant to the mix.
What does the box of arm&hammer look like that you have? The stuff I can get stinks of perfume!!

[StirCrazy]

The stuff I can get stinks of perfume!!

Maybe mix it to a past and put a bit behind your ears and the nape of your neck 8)

Steve

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

If you are worried about the perfume, then you can bake baking soda in the oven to get washing soda. Its the Super Washing Soda that I got while I was in the states....maybe that's what the difference was.

Or...forget washing soda and just add baking soda. The effect will be the same (i.e. it will add alk), but the pH will temporarily drift low for a couple of hours (about 0.1 to 0.2...depending how much buffer you added).

- Victor.

[Aquattro]

Victor, I choose to add carbonates to get an immediate rise in pH. I understand that bicarbonates will eventually gve the same result, but a drop of .2 at this point isn't desirable. My pH has been down to 7.6 this week and raising it is a priority.

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Hmm...So, what is your alk ? One thing to note is that kalk additions with vinegar impair alk measurements. Vinegar makes the alk look better than it really is. Low pH can be caused by many problems and the solution is not always obvious -- in other words, high alk may not solve your problem...just delays the problem.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm

- Victor.

[Aquattro]

Victor, I went thru all that with Randy today. My alk is bouncing between 2.5 and 3.5 mEq/L. I no longer use vinegar in my saturated kalk, dosing 5g every 2 days. My reactor was turned off last week. pH still can hit 7.6 at night. I'm building a much larger reactor that should be done this week-end, hopefully that helps. I still can't figure why the low pH though

[JimE]

sodium carbonate / soda ash is sold as phup/ ph increaser in the pool & spa industry. no soapy additives or perfume/scent. cheap from canadain tire/revy,hd

Jim

[Delphinus]

Sorry to backtrack the thread a little ... Victor, you said you got your A&H from the U.S. ... Aha! I swear our A&H Washing Soda is not the same as that in the U.S., because the guys on RC swore there was no scent to the washing soda. Ours is ... well, like Brad said, perfumey. There's something else in there. Lemony or flowery or something. Very odd.

The boxes that I see at the supermarkets up here, say something like "SO CLEAN! (Super washing soda)". It looks like the product name is "A&H So Clean" and not "Washing Soda."

I like your idea about heating baking soda and making my own washing soda. Thanks for the tip. I will try this.

PS. Brad, I hope things settle out in your tank quite quickly. Good luck!

[Aquattro]

Good to know we can get it at a pool supply place. I have one nearby. I'm making my own right now using bulk baking soda.

I think one of the biggest problems I have is that I own a pH meter! Looking at my tank and the growth I get (wanna buy some corraline?), you'd never think there was anything out of whack. I think the problem started by having a reactor that was too small for my tank. I had no problems on the 75. I also have not installed fans over the tank and that may be contributing a bit. I'll know tonight what my alk consumption is, but I'm sure I have a net loss. Hopefully the new reactor will keep the alk up with out adding too much CO2. When the alk is near 4, the pH swing is much smaller.

[reefburnaby]

Brad,

As an experiment, I would try turning off the skimmer for a day or two. The pH can either drop or rise. It can drop if there is too much CO2 in the water and the skimmer is aerating the CO2 out of the water. Or it can rise because CO2 from the room air is being injected in to the water via the skimmer.

The other thing I would check is that the CO2 bottle/regulator/everything else is not leaking. The good old soap bubble test should work in this situation.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.

[Aquattro]

Brad,

As an experiment, I would try turning off the skimmer for a day or two. The pH can either drop or rise. It can drop if there is too much CO2 in the water and the skimmer is aerating the CO2 out of the water. Or it can rise because CO2 from the room air is being injected in to the water via the skimmer.


- Victor.

Victor, you're so smart :P I'm going to try that.

I'll also move the CO2 tank out of the room until my new reactor is done. That would eliminate any leaks!

Thanks for the idea!

[chicki]

If you do a search for it at reefcentral you'll learn that Canadian soda wash is different then in the states. Here they add a small amount of non ionic surfactant to assist in the "wetting" process. If I remember, this is what causes the perfume smell and bubbles. I've read not to use it, unless you buy it in the states??

[Tau2301]

I bought a 2kg jar of pH raiser for swimming pools at CND Tire for about $8.00.

I mix this at a little less than the 6:1 ratio as the pH of calgary water ranges from 7.9 to 8.4 ( I got those numbers from the City od Calgary Water Report).

[Doug]

I have never used it myself, but as mentioned by Chicki, you guys may be interested in the thread on RC, in the Chemistry forum. Randy has some comments on the Canadian version. As a matter of fact he says do not use it. Is that the same product?

[Acro]

Brad,

Just pulling at strings here but with the colder weather is your furnace on and windows closed?

[Aquattro]

Doug, you may be referring to my recent thread with Randy. The surfactant is added to the VIP brand, according to the manufacturer. Arm&Hammer did not return my email. Randy had made a joke about Canadian soda, not realizing that in fact there is a difference.

Jamie, at this point it looks like a drifting pH probe, rather than a real pH problem. And no, the windows are still open (to my family's dismay) and I have electric heat.