Tank moved, new journal

[danny zubot]

Well I figured this is as good of time as any to start a new tank journal. I moved on Saturday to my new home in Cranston, what an ordeal. I've brought with me my 65 gallon setup with 29 gallon sump. Everything will pretty much be the same except for a few mods that I've done to the system. The only causualties from the move were some smashed up caps. It could have been worse because the water temp got down to 63 F before I was actually able to start warming everthing up. Some corals have various vading and injuries from toucing other corals, but nothing should die completely.

Before:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP0983.jpg

Everything was tucked nice under the stand because of space restrictions in the old condo.

The System had and still has:
90 lbs of LR
400 watt 14K MH
Mag 9.5 return
Coralife SS 125 skimmer
Pinpoint PH monitor

Changes:
Tank is in my unfinished basement (the cave)
Sump is now behind the tank on its own stand (old dresser) for easier access.
Upgraded my return to 1" PVC from 3/4"hose, and is feeding a spray bar that runs the length of the bottom on the tank. I figure I've gained 250 GPH of flow from the decreased head loss and increased pipe size.
Ditched the sandbed. (eating my words from years ago)
Aquascaping is vastly different

Future development
I want to develop an effective surge device (one of the reasons the tank is was banished to the basement)
Whatever tickles my fancy at the time.

Pics to come.

[krisalexander]

Nice looking tank, looking forward to the new pics. What did u find for the best way to transport your fish and corals? I am moving my tank for a bit then moving back for the holiday break.
thanks

kris

[woodcarver]

Beautiful tank !! Would be interested in details as I have a tank that size ,undrilled that I was thinking of setting up and wonder how you have configured the plumbing ?
...................Dave

[danny zubot]

I used a ton of buckets to move the water and LR. I always try to move as much water as possible. Not all of the water made it back into the tank, I used a bunch to scrub the rock of all the crap that builds up over time.

I used 2 10 gallon styro-foam cartons from the LFS to move the corals and fish. I figured it would help keep the heat in better. The night before the big move I drained and cleaned the tank, and put the livestock into the cartons with power heads for circulation. It worked out well, but I don't want to do it again any time soon. I feel sorry for anyone who has to move multiple tanks.:redface:

The plumbing will best describe itself with pictures. I'll try to get some soon.

[Delphinus]

It worked out well, but I don't want to do it again any time soon. I feel sorry for anyone who has to move multiple tanks.:redface:


I've done it *once* and.. I think the profound conclusion that day was ... it's only going to be *once*.

Look forward to the new pictures! :)

[danny zubot]

Just an update, I've been wondering if I would get better coloration in my corals with more actinic than my current 14K MH lights provide. So I've ordered a dual HO t-5 retrofit from J&L with Geismann (sp) true actinics. I'll post before and after pics later.

[danny zubot]

Thought I'd post some "before" pictures of a few frags so that I can refer to them a few months or years from now to gauge their progress. Or mine for that matter.

These have started to grow rapidly since getting my T5 HO actinics and new Reeflux 12K 400 watt bulb.


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/Before%20Pics/IMGP1566.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1830.jpg


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/Before%20Pics/IMGP1568.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/Before%20Pics/IMGP1569.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1834.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/Before%20Pics/IMGP1570.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1832.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/Before%20Pics/IMGP1575.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1838.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/Before%20Pics/IMGP1576.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1835.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/Before%20Pics/IMGP1582.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1831.jpg

And a recent Full tank shot

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/Before%20Pics/IMGP1620.jpg


And a recent addition:

Unknown colony I bought from Finnadict.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1839.jpg

[04scoobysti]

Aquascaping Looks great!

[danny zubot]

Just added an auto top up this past weekend. Not sure what brand it is because my buddy just bought an extra one for me when he placed the online order.

Basically its just a float valve to run off of my RODI filter. I drilled a 1/2" hole and plugged it in, works perfectly. No more lifting heavy jugs of water to fill the sump. No more micro bubbles from water crashing through the baffles when my water levels got too low. I'll add a pic of it later for anyone who wants to see it.

[Delphinus]

Is it hooked up directly to your RO/DI unit or do you have a reservoir?

[danny zubot]

Right to my RO unit.

Which brings to mind a concern of mine. Since the valve on the RO unit needs to be open at all times for the system to work, its always dumping waste water down the drain. Is there any way around this? I was thinking of just closing the main valve for the RO unit a bit so that less water will be wasted.

[Delphinus]

Hmmm, Ok I was kind of worried you were going to say that. Having been down this road myself .. let me spare you some things I learned the hard way.

First of all, in answer to your question, what you want is a solenoid shutoff kit for your RO/DI unit. The float valve closes, the output line pressures up, and this pressure drives closed another valve on the input side of the RO/DI. Thus, when the output valve is off, the unit is off, no longer dumping waste water.

But !!

That's still not quite enough. The problem with this scenario is that the water will get replaced at the rate of evaporation. Which could mean that you end up having the unit on for like 10 seconds every 5 minutes. This is very hard on the RO membrane, I ended up going through 3 membranes in a year until I figured out what I was doing was killing my membranes (the RO would output TDS at 80-100 .. the membranes were shot).

So.. you need a sort of buffer in between the sump and the RO/DI. What I do is I have a bucket I use as a RO/DI reservoir. In my case it's like a 50g food grade barrell. I fill it up manually and let it fill overnight (it still has the shutoff kit so no worries about overflows), and then turn off the RO/DI manually. This lasts me about 2 weeks between fills. (It's still not a perfect arrangement - more on that later). Then, basically the float valve on the sump is attached to the reservoir. So the water can enter into the sump at whatever rate the evaporation is, and I don't have to worry about destroying my membrane.

Now .. (here's the "later" part I promised..) It turns out that it's also not great to have your RO/DI sit idle for 2 weeks at a time because you still get TDS creep. Right now I find myself having to flush the membrane every time I run the unit, which shouldn't be necessary.

What would be perfectly ideal is have a sprinkler timer on the input and have the RO/DI turn on for an hour each night. Thus it still has the benefit of a single run (ie., when it's on it's on, and the shutoff kit is then at that point a failsafe in case the bucket fills to the top), AND it has the benefit of not allowing the TDS to accumulate.

There is a clever design of a reservoir using a check valve that basically allows you to have it self-fill if (and only if) the reservoir empties completely. I don't have the URL handy but it was talked about on Canreef so there are some threads on it somewhere. I figure the hose/sprinkler timer thing would work fine too (I just have been too lazy to look for one at HD. I probably will when I get my basement further along.)

This is the shutoff valve kit: http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/details/rounits.php?product_ID=ro-kpfshut

This is the flush kit:
http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/details/rounits.php?product_ID=ro-kpflush

(Although they are "Kent" brand it doesn't really matter what brand you use - they just fit on 1/4" tubing basically, so they will work on other brands of RO/DI units.)

[Delphinus]

Ah, here's the thread I'm thinking about. I see I whined about, er, mentioned wrecking my RO membranes in that thread too. :redface:

http://canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=29834&

[danny zubot]

Hey Tony, thanks for all of the information. I like Kent's auto shut off valve the most, but I'm concerned that I won't be able to fill my drinking water jugs without a great deal of hastle. Since it works on pressure it should release when I switch over to "jug" mode should it? In a minute I'll post pics of what I have so you can see what i'm talking about.

[Delphinus]

I think you should be able to make it work. I do something sorta similar. I've never actually used my RO for drinking, but I do T off the RO/DI before the DI stage to go into another reservoir which I use for watering my orchids. Some of the fussier orchids need to be watered with RO water but you don't want to use RO/DI for this, just RO. Anyhow so I "T" off the line going from the RO membrane to the DI canister into a rubbermaid type thing with a float valve. So when that thing is not full, the "priority" is to refill it (although some water makes it past the DI so the RO/DI output isn't completely "off" but it is "slowed"). When it's full, it stops filling and all the water goes to the DI.

Basically with the autoshutoff kit, you can have as many outputs as you want, as long as they go to some kind of shutoff (float valve, typically), when they are all closed, the output line will pressurize and close the input valve. If any one of them drops, the output line will depressurize, and the input valve opens and away you go.

Basically it's full automation without any electrical components, it's actually kind of neat. :)

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Hey, just reading this and it has me interested for when I set up my own RO/DI top-off system. Danny, is this relatively close to your set-up (ie. output from RO t'd off--one for drinking water, one to the DI?)

http://xaf.xanga.com/7a9d7af218533121881074/b87907974.jpg

[danny zubot]

Here's the set up right now. I have the stock RO valve, a "T" to the top off side and the Jug filler, both with their own valves. The Jug side remains closed unless I'm filling, and I added a valve to the top off side to close it off when filling jugs. This is to prevent a back pressure siphone out of the sump. (Wouldn't that taste nasty?)

So the way I see it, regarless of where to water is going, if the system is depressurized the selenoid should open up right? I'm not worried about the auto shut off working when filling jugs because I only do that when I'm around to keep my eye on it. Let me know what you think.

Oh, and I've thrown in a few extra pics of the system just for fun.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1655.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1658.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1648.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1650.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1661.jpg
How NOT to wire your system.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1657.jpg

[danny zubot]

Danny, is this relatively close to your set-up (ie. output from RO t'd off--one for drinking water, one to the DI?)


I've run the line from the filter up to the ceiling, across the room and down to the sump. It's about 25 feet of line.

[Delphinus]

Danny, where did you get the picture of my electrical setup??? :razz:

Anyhoo, yeah, you'd be fine with what you're describing. Basically as long as you have a valve (in this case probably just a ball valve like the ones pictured on melev's setup that Drew showed there), all you have to do is close the valve when you're done, the line pressures up and the input valve closes. Open it up and the unit turns on, close it up and the unit turns off.

Drew, FWIW, what you have pictured there is exactly how I have mine setup, except that instead of ball valves at the end of each line, I have float valves on reservoirs (since I'm somewhat bad at forgetting that I have water on and tend to create large pools of spilled water - see signature :redface:). I just use the $10 humidifier float valves from Home Depot/Rona/etc.

[danny zubot]

Well, I got the auto shut off valve last night. After several hours of scratching my head and the odd curse word I got it installed and working. The instructions are for the Kent filters and utilize parts existing on them. Long story short, it works, so no more wated water. :biggrin:

[danny zubot]

Hey Tony, I'm trying to edit my picture post to add some progress pics, but I get the red X when adding the URL. Is there anyway to fix this?

[Delphinus]

Sure there isn't a typo in the URL, like an extra "/" after the "http://" or something? Maybe PM me the links and I'll see what I can see..

[danny zubot]

I figured it out Tony. In Photobucket there is a "shared" URL and a "URL link". I used the wrong one. I'll update the pics soon.:redface:

[danny zubot]

Ok, I've added some updated images below some of the "before" images from April. I've only included pic of the most noticably changed corals.

[Pescador]

Here's a pic of my RO/DI rats nest with the Kent shutoff, flush kit, and pass-to-drain unit (to prevent TDS creep). I use a 20g can with a float valve as a reservoir like Tony but I'm wasting alot more water. There is another tee to a float valve in a 50g can for saltwater mixing.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/Pescador58/Reef%20Tank/IMG_2156.jpg

[danny zubot]

I'm debating using a resevior on my new sump too.

The problem I'm finding with the direct feed setup, is that the float valve is so sensitive that every few minutes it opens up to fill the sump. It probably only fills like 50 ml at a time, but it takes another minute for the line to build up enough pressure for the Kent valve to shutoff the water. So, although I believe that I'm conserving water, its not as effective as I'd like.

I wonder if there is anyway to rig the float valve to not be so sensitive, so that it takes 200-300ml to trigger instead of the 50ml I estimate?

[Delphinus]

I'm not sure I follow, how does using a reservoir mean wasted water (except for the evaporation from the reservoir, but really this is minimal compared to the tank..) ??

Danny, I really have to say this, but get a reservoir on there pronto!! Don't debate, just do it! :p Hooking the RO/DI directly to the float valve is going to lead to premature RO membrane failure. When I moved into my current house in 2004, I hooked my RO/DI directly to the sump like that. That constant on/off cycles are murder on the membranes. I went through 3, maybe even 4 membranes in the first year before I realized why they were failing. Since hooking up the reservoir (and filling the reservoir manually), I haven't had to replace a membrane yet (at least two years on this membrane).

[Delphinus]

Actually, there's something you can do besides a reservoir. You can hook your RO/DI up to a sprinkler timer and time it so that it only goes on for about an hour or two at night. That way, it will only fill during that period. Kind of not a perfect solution because once the sump is refilled it will still do that on/off/on/off thing but at least it's not doing it all day.

The reservoir idea is easier and cheaper :) a 5g bucket if nothing else, will work fine, or a rubbermaid, or whatever you can make work.

[danny zubot]

Any idea how to hook up a sprinkler timer to 1/4" line? Or is there something available specifially for that size?

[Delphinus]

Just .. get. .. a reservoir already !!!! :p Do it do it do it do it do it!!!!!!

But for the sprinkler valve, I was assuming that you had an RO/DI hookup the same as a garden hose or washing machine. If that were the case then you could just get a sprinkler valve with the garden hose hookups, and you just hook it inline between the RO/DI feedline and the tap. If that's not how you have it, then you'd have to, I guess, get a sprinkler valve with PVC hookups, and then get an assortment of various PVC bits and step down the piping from whatever it is (probably 3/4" or 1") down to the 1/4". You'll have to get some of the pieces from Home Depot/Rona (the valve), and some of the pieces from Western Pool and Spa (because I don't think HD/Rona typically carry bushings down to 1/4" :( ). Bit of a PITA this way.

Do the reservoir -- really, don't wreck a membrane if you don't have to. At $100 a pop I can think of better ways to spend money. :neutral:

If you need a hand with it, let me know, maybe we can work on something together..

[danny zubot]

I can't take the pressure! :lol: I'm gonna have to get a resevior tonight!

[Pescador]

I'm not sure I follow, how does using a reservoir mean wasted water (except for the evaporation from the reservoir, but really this is minimal compared to the tank..) ??

No I didn't mean I was wasting more water using a reservoir I thought I was wasting more water than you. My top off sends about 5 gals at a time from my reservoir and the pass-to-drain flushes it every time it opens the auto-shutoff.

It sure is nice not having to worry about overfilling the reservoir or saltmixing barrel. Like you say when it's full and the float in either container shuts off the solenoid I can shut the valve to either one later without a spill.

[danny zubot]

Please don't yell at me Tony, but ofted not to do the reservior. I just can't bring myself to fill one every week or what ever. I had to go automated.

So I got the sprinkler timer like you said, and found the fittings to reduce it to 1/4"

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1877.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1876.jpg

I have it set to come on every 2 hours for 10 minutes. When I get home from work I can adjust the duration or intervals as required.

This whole thing has gotten completely rediculous. My friend has the identicle RO setup but with the tank, and his came from Aquasafe already set up to shut off when the tank was full. I should have gone that route 2 years ago.

[ClubReef]

Hi,

What is the advantage of the sprinkler timer vs a float valve? Sorry if you addressed this earlier in the thread (I'm at work..didn't read the whole thing)

[Delphinus]

The pressure tank scenario may have the same problem. It may shut off when it's full, but how far will it empty before it turns on again? Unless he's manually turning it off and on as needed. Ohhh wait, Ok that's what he's doing. Yeah, so basically *your friend has a reservoir and that's why it works*.

Filling the reservoir is a pain? I'm sorry dude but .. I'm sorry I think that really is lame. You open a valve to fill it, the shut off kit turns it off when it's full so it doesn't spill, you turn off the valve manually later when you think of it. It is not hard!!!!!!!

[ClubReef]

Ignore my post..just reading the details now...

[danny zubot]

Unless he's manually turning it off and on as needed. Ohhh wait, Ok that's what he's doing. Yeah, so basically *your friend has a reservoir and that's why it works*.

He's not manually turning anything on or off, his float valve does that. Its just that his RO setup came with something that shuts off the waste water when the tank is pressured up.

For myself, having to remember to shut of my filter when the reservior is filled is no different than having to remember to shut it off when my drinking water jugs were full. Even if I had float valves in place in the reservior to avoid spillage, the filter is still dumping waste water down the drain as the water meter ticks away. So this is really the best way for me to save water and for piece of mind.

[Delphinus]

The only way what you're saying would make sense, is if you *didn't* get the shut off kit I told you about 3 pages ago. Is that the case? See, I thought you DID get the shutoff kit, but were still concerned because it was turning on and off frequently, because even though waste water isn't going down the drain when shut off, it was still turning on and off very often.

This is because the float valve only knows when to shut off. The water level drops 1mm, or maybe even less, and that's enough to open the float valve. So the water drops 1mm, the pressure drops in the RO/DI output line, the solenoid kicks off, the RO/DI is on. 10 seconds later, the float valve is back up again, the line repressurizes, the RO/DI shuts off, and we wait until the water level drops again that 1mm.

This is *awesome* for your reef tank, because the salinity doesn't waver by the slightest. But, meanwhile, the RO/DI filter is working it's butt off.

This is why you want a "buffer" between the float valve and the source. A reservoir is this buffer. It releases water as it's needed, so the tank gets it's water on demand, but, the RO/DI doesn't have to do more work than is needed. Ie., the output rate is reasonably steady-state, but the input is on-demand.

What you're talking about what your friend has, he has the shutoff kit, so to speak (it may not be a "kit" per se, it was probably part of the RO/DI package). The pressure tank is the reservoir. It works on a slightly different principle, it has an air bladder inside which compresses as the tank fills, thus storing pressure as it releases the water. What I'm not sure of is, how much water can be bled off before the pressure starts to drop. If it can handle a couple gallons at a time before releasing the pressure, then that might be buffer enough. I once toyed around with a small pressure tank but it could not handle more than about a gallon, possibly even less, before it experienced a pressure drop. So it does depend on the tank a little bit I guess.

So you see, if you had the shut off kit, with a reservoir - what happens is you put a float valve in the reservoir. This float valve shuts off your RO/DI so you don't "have to remember to shut it off". The thing is, you will remember eventually, but in the meantime, your reservoir isn't overflowing everywhere (and you're not dumping water down the drain).

Basically it's a low tech, low cost, fail safe mechanism. No reliance on electricity, and yet, full blown automation. But -- it only works if you have the shut off kit. If you don't have that - well then - yes I agree - you took something that was supposed to be simple and made it completely ridiculous (are you sure you're not an engineer? :razz:) :razz::razz::razz:

[danny zubot]

Everything you've said is correct. The filter was working overtime because of the overly sensitive float valve. I think I might be misunderstanding the whole reservior concept, perhaps I need to see yours to know how effective it is.

Anyway, whats done is done, and in time for me to go on vacation later this summer. BTW, what are you doing from Aug 24th to Sept 9th?:mrgreen:

[Delphinus]

All ribbing aside, the sprinkler valve does have some merit. I wish I had one even though I have a large reservoir.

I'll be around those dates of your vacation, if you need a tanksitter. I actually will be away for 3 weeks (starting next weekend to August 19), my Dad's gonna come feed the fish but I could probably use a backup contact for him if you're around in that timeframe?

[danny zubot]

Well, due to the tank going down hill I had to overhaul it before it was too late.

I was experiencing extreme hair algae and detritus, probably do to the overwhelming bio load the tank was under. and my corals were starting to die. I had a regal tang, bi-color angel, gold striped maroon clown, YWG with pistol shrimp, 4 green chromis, a dragon goby, a red cheek anthias and recently a lawnmower blennie. For cleaners I only had like 6 hermits, 3 snails and a cleaner shrimp. that was most likely because of my bully pistol shrimp.

So this past week I tore it down, took out all of the corals, LR and fish. Scrubbed the live rock of all hair algae and took a few fish to the LFS. The only fish I kept were the tang, angel, clown, YWG and the lawn mower blennie. In trade for the fish the LFS gave me a whole lot of hermits and snails. Now with no pistol shrimp preying on my cleaners, I imagine that they'll stick around for a while longer than before. I think by the end of the overhaul I had changed out about 50% of the water.

So some of my SPS are a bit faded because of the ordeal, but I think they will bounce back. My LPS on the other hand will take a bit longer.

Before: You can see hair algae, and the water looks green.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/IMGP1843.jpg

After: The rock scaping leaves a bit more to be desired than before IMO, but its only for a few months until I get the 110 set up.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/3214dannyzubot/post%20overhaul/IMGP1976.jpg

[michika]

The tank looks great! I hope scrubbing off the GHA works for you!

[christyf5]

How the heck do you get your caps to plate like that? Mine form "cups" and then whorl out from there but they don't plate very flat :confused: Is it a flow thing?

Oh and the tank looks great by the way. Makes me want to do an "all cap" tank :biggrin:

[Chaloupa]

The caps are gorgeous!!! I hope mine does that.......looks good!

[Mik_101]

That tank is stunning. I relay like the Monti cap(green) on the top right hand corner so eye popping.

[danny zubot]

Thanks everyone, I hope the GHA stays away too.

As for the caps; they have all been fragged and broken and abused, thats why they looks the way they do. Every fracture will form a new "pedal" so to speak. It will also help to have them grow up the side of rocks or even the tank wall.

I have always tried to keep them up high and in high flow for maximum color.

[danny zubot]

I've been reding that PO4- can restrict calcium uptake in corals. So I went out and bought some phosban media, and put it into a bag in the sump. we'll see if it also helps indirectly with keeping my water cleaner, as well as my growth.

GHA has come back a bit, but my new lawnmower blennie seems to be keeping it trimmed back. Oh ya, I've also upgraded my skimmer from my old SS-125 to an ASM-G3. What a difference that made alone!