Garf.org

[FishGeek]

Has anybody ordered frags from Garf before? They seem to have the best looking corals anywhere! I talked to a person in edmonton who has personally been there and he said that the colors in the pictures don't do the corals justice! Would anybody be interested in Alberta to do a group order from them?

Simon

[Delphinus]

Who pays for the CITES permits? (Notwithstanding GARF's reputation) don't forget that we as Canadians can't order corals (or anything on CITES for that matter) without the proper documentation -- otherwise it's very bad news.

BTW, GARF used to have a reputation for Photoshop doctored photographs.

[Aquattro]

I don't mean to suggest anything, but you may want to search for GARF on the bigger US boards first.

[Axial Corillite]

For starters they won’t ship to Canada you have to get it shipped to some one you know in Washington and then go Down their and pick it up. I’ve been to garf and yes they are very odd people but they do some amazing research with corals and they have hands down the most amazing coral collection I have ever seen. And no the pictures don’t do the corals justice. Their pics are not touched up in any way.

[Delphinus]

Um ... don't bring corals across the border without the CITES paperwork.

Support our home-grown retailers who do go through the hassles of importing legitimately.

[Troy F]

I don't mean to suggest anything, but you may want to search for GARF on the bigger US boards first.

I think the "Garf Files" were lost when reefs.org changed their BB software. Seems a shame, it was one of the truly great comedies.

[Axial Corillite]

Um ... don't bring corals across the border without the CITES paperwork.

Support our home-grown retailers who do go through the hassles of importing legitimately.

Easy does it. :shock: Before you report me to the proper authorities.

Obviously your going to need a CITES permit you’d have to be
An idiot(And unethical) to try get something across the border with
out the proper Permits. I find kind of funny that some one mentions GARF
And it gets every ones panties in knots.

[EmilyB]

This one Troy?

http://www.reefs.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=31

[UnderWorldAquatics]

I was actually going to be bringing up a large collection of their nicest coloured cultured corals and continuing propagating them at my aquaculture facility. Then I would be able to offer multi generation propagated corals that are easy to keep and have amazing colours...

[Troy F]

Axial, I don't think anyone's panties are in a knot. Follow Em's link (thanks Em, you helped bring back a lot of old memories) and you'll (hopefully) see what caused all the controversy about good ol' GARF. I'll have to take your word that the photos don't do them justice because I haven't been there but I'll admit that at the time (back in '99), I certainly had no trouble believing they'd been doctored.

[Delphinus]

Axial: hey, I've been tempted myself. I don't blame anyone for thinking about it. But, I just had to be clear and point it out to anyone reading this and not realizing this -- CITES listed species require CITES permits to traffic over an international border.

Now, to be fair, there ARE several species of interest to reef aquarists that are not listed on CITES, so, it does kind of depend on what a person is bringing over.

www.cites.org

[Axial Corillite]

Sorry I should have put more smilies :D :wink:
when saying "panties in a knot" :D
Mike

[Canadian]

Just out of curiosity, where would one go about finding peer reviewed, published studies conducted by GARF? It's often said that they conduct "research" but I'd like to read about the "scientific" research that they have done. Without the research being published or peer reviewed, their "research" amounts to little more than what your average hobbyist does, or at best, what your average MO basement coral fragging operation does.

[FishGeek]

Can anybody sum up the entire Garf contoversy in a short paragraph? I'm a slow reader and I don't have hours to read all the posts about garf on reefs.org! And what is CITES?

Simon

[EmilyB]

Can anybody sum up the entire Garf contoversy in a short paragraph? I'm a slow reader and I don't have hours to read all the posts about garf on reefs.org! And what is CITES?

Simon

CITES is an important part of being in the hobby.

A search engine is helpful. This could be google.ca..

If you can't read, I would recommend a literacy course which may be offered near you. :D

[Delphinus]

Hi, I'm sorry I didn't elaborate on what CITES is. Here is a brief description.

CITES is "Convention on International Traffic of Endangered Species." It is a treaty recognized by many countries. There are a small handful of countries that don't recognize it but they're none that we typically deal with.

So basically we have this CITES governing body somewhere, whose job it is to identify species at risk (endangered species). So they categorize a species at risk, as "Appendix I," "Appendex II," or "Appendix III." Appendix I is species identified as "in imminent danger of going extinct." Basically if a species is Appendix I, there is NO WAY to legally import or export these species (the only exception being for research). Appendix II are species at risk, but not as dire at Appendix I, so there are still avenues for import and export, but, the appropriate permits must be in place. You need CITES labelled permits issued from the country of origin of that species.

Offhand I'm not sure what Appendix III is.

Now here is the kicker. If a species is CITES listed, then they apply this to even PIECES of the species. For example, ivory from a Rhino horn would be CITES. Cuttings of plants, even the seeds would not be exempt. Live rock and live sand, this used to be calcereous corals, so even they are listed as "endangered species." Boots made from alligator skin, etc. etc. Thus, even frags of corals are still under CITES control.

CITES is in place to protect species at risk. It is, thus, a very important part of our hobby and others. That said, that is not to say it is a perfect system. All it can do, is control the traffic of endangered species across international borders. It does nothing to stop the illegal collection of species, does nothing to prevent habitat destruction, stuff like that. Also, I'm not certain what happens to live animals that are seized. They are possibly destroyed, which to me defeats the purpose of "protecting" the endangered species. So like I said, it's not a perfect system, but it is the system that is in place nonetheless -- thus like it or not, we have to live with it and live by it.

Penalties for defying CITES are very severe. At the very least, the shipment is seized. Fines can be several thousand dollars, and, since it is considered "criminal smuggling" an importer or an exporter who tries to sneak something past a border, can face imprisonment.

For more information, I encourage you to check out the CITES website at www.cites.org.

PS. The reason I know all this, is because I used to do group orders of orchids for Calgary's Foothill Orchid Society. I've imported from Hawaii, Peru, Thailand, and Indonesia. Let me say just this. It is a LOT of work!!! Man, the paperwork would take me hours and hours at the airport customs office when the shipments would arrive. And, speaking to the suppliers, if they don't speak English, then you need to speak their language. Luckily for Indo, I had a friend who had moved there who was able to act as my "agent" on that side. Thailand, I was lucky, they spoke English. For Peru .... I had to learn Spanish!! "Sí señor, seré seguro pagar con los dólares americanos." (He was very concerned I might pay with Canadian dollars, apparently for some reason he was not very interested in those.) :D

[Tau2301]

You mean they don't have Cliff Notes for GARF? :shock:

[Delphinus]

A few more parting thoughts. Then I promise to shut up, really. :)

Not all the animals we deal with in our aquariums are considered CITES. Basically, all the stoney or "hard" corals are. But not all soft corals. Anemones, and some species of "ornamental marine" fish are not CITES controlled (although there are some that are, so with fish it is a case-by-case kind of thing).

Basically, just because it came out of a reef, doesn't mean that it's "officially" endangered. It's just that, for all intents are purposes, reefs are a very threatened habitat, so most things coming off a reef do qualify for CITES protection.

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

I wouldn't import any corals of small quantity from the states. The proper way to do it involves too much paperwork. If you want garf corals, then you could ask a LFS or a zoo that deals with garf on a regular basis to bring it in for you.

Is there a particular coral that you want from garf ?

- Victor.

[Samw]

A few more parting thoughts. Then I promise to shut up, really. :)

Not all the animals we deal with in our aquariums are considered CITES. Basically, all the stoney or "hard" corals are. But not all soft corals. Anemones, and some species of "ornamental marine" fish are not CITES controlled (although there are some that are, so with fish it is a case-by-case kind of thing).

Basically, just because it came out of a reef, doesn't mean that it's "officially" endangered. It's just that, for all intents are purposes, reefs are a very threatened habitat, so most things coming off a reef do qualify for CITES protection.


Cool, anemones aren't on the Cites list. There shouldn't be any problems bringing one over the border right?

[UnderWorldAquatics]

You can bring any anemones you want over the border, its the same as bringing a non endangered fish.

[Samw]

You can bring any anemones you want over the border, its the same as bringing a non endangered fish.

Good to know. Thanks.