A journal of an attempt to raise Seahorse Babies

[howdy20012002]

Due to several requests, I am going to try to create a journal of my experiences of trying to raise Baby seahorses.
I have done a fair bit of research on the subject.
However, I don't have any expectations on the viability of actually able to raise any of this wonderful little guys and gals.
Here is the story.

[howdy20012002]

At approx 5 pm, a neighbour pointed out a baby seahorse in my SH tank.
Upon closer inspection I noticed approximately 50 baby seahorses floating around the top of the tank.
I honestly dont' know whey they were actually born as I personally did not witness it.
Although I do have a baby fish and SH setup that I am trying to engineer, I wasn't expecting these arrivals and had to improvise.
I grabbed a 3 Gallon fish bowl and placed it into a 10 gallon tank.
I then filled the fish bowl with water from the main seahorse tank.
Using a cup, I gathered up the babies as unobtrusively as possible and placed them into the fish bowl.
I then placed a couple of cupfuls of rotifers from my rotifer cultures and basically that was it.
I must say, very cool looking creatures.

[howdy20012002]

the setup basically is a 3 gallon plastic fish bowl in a 10 gallon tank.
I put fresh water in the 10 gallon tank so not to waste salt.
I placed the heater in the 10 gallon tank portion so that I could have better control over the heat. I didn't want to place the heater directly into the fish bowl fearing that I would cook them.
I then placed a air hose with a air stone in the fish bowl.
However, after talking to Beverley I changed that to a just running a air tube into the tank and put a valve on the airtube. I now have approximately 2 bubbles per second going into the tank.
If you look at the pic and wonder what the shutoff valve is for, basically I took the tank off the system that I was developing where all the tanks drain into one main sump.
the reason for the fish bowl verses the 10 gallon tank as it condenses the babies into a smaller space so that I don't use as many rotifers and they stay at a higher concentration.
As well, with a fish bowl, the babies don't have the abilty to get stuck to the side of the bowl at the surface because the walls fall away verses straight down which may cause some of them to become stuck to the wall and expire.
Again, this setup is from the research I have done online.
To say that it is a work in progress is an understatment.
If anyone has any suggestions at all, PLEASE let me know

[howdy20012002]

So far so good.
I awoke to no bodies in the tank.
I placed a cup of rotifers in the tank before going off to work.
I also had a friend come in at noon and place another cup of rotifers into the tank.
After talking to Beverly, I did a 30 % water change at night using water from the main Seahorse tank.
I also placed a cup of rotifers into the tank at around 4 and 9 pm.
I was also placed some Phytoplankton into the tank in the hopes that the rotifers will continue to reproduce and help provide a constant food source for the babies.
As well, I now have a light along the bottom of the tank (again a Beverley suggestion) so to attract the seahorses and Rotifers in more of a condensed area. As well, I think that it will make the rotifers easier for the seahorse babies to see and hunt down.
They are becoming darker, which from what I have read is a good thing.

[howdy20012002]

Well, I don't belive it but there were no casaulties in the morning.
I did another 30 percent WC in the morning and placed a cup of rotifers in the tank at 4 am and at 7 am before going off to work.
I am also putting a fair amount of Prime in the water everytime I do a WC so to help control the ammonia and nitrites and will be doing an approx. 30 % WC twice a day. I am going to continually test to ensure that the levels of ammonia and nitrites stay low.
I am continuing to do water changes directly from the main seahorse tank and will be doing approximately a 30 % WC twice a day. I am going to continually test to ensure that the levels of ammonia and nitrites stay low.
I don't know if this is the right thing to do.
However, I feel that the main tank will be able to process the waste in the water and the Babies won't be shocked by putting freshly made water into their tank.
I am able to see lots of rotifers swimming around in the bowl, which is perfect.
Simply put, if the water is good and the food is there, I may actually be able to keep some of these guys alive.
Please once again, any suggestions will gladly be accepted. Just dont' be upset if I don't implement them. This is will be one of many to come batches of babies and I am trying to come up with ways to maximize the outcome.
any comments or questions so far?
Neal

[howdy20012002]

I thought that I would show the proud parents
Tranvictor, these guys should look familiar.
they used to be yours.

[howdy20012002]

thought that I would show the main tank set as well

[howdy20012002]

got home from work
YEAH, Still all alive and swimming
Looking good.
see for yourself
Neal

[michika]

Looking good!

[Joe Reefer]

They are so small!, Keep up the good work.

[bulletsworld]

Way to go Neal! Looking great so far! Keep up the good work!

I'm totally cheering for ya!

Keep us posted!

[tranvictor]

Nice Neal:

I am glad for the horsies. I see they have a good father.

Vic

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Good job so far. Are these kudas or erectus? Hopefully they're not Reidis because those seem harder to rear than the other species, since the babies are pelagic & don't hang onto things. Whatever species they are, looks like you did a good job researching & setting up a proper system.

Anthony

[phillybean]

Sweet! Looks awesome, I've been crusin Reef Central for months and came accross this site a few weeks ago and have been a looky-lou for until now, I signed up just to ask this question...

Do you have any idea why the adults "did it"?

[howdy20012002]

Still no casaulties.
They are getting bigger.
You can see them eating the rotifers now.
I am still doing about a 30 percent water change x 2 a day from the main SH tank.
And still adding a fair amount of prime.
Lots of rotifers in there.
Phillybean...the adults "did" it because it is in their nature to reproduce.
I am going to start growing live brine shrimp this weekend to get used to doing it and so that I can have some live adults in a couple of weeks.
Neal

[phillybean]

Hah, I didn't mean it like that, I'm still new to reef keeping but my question was what caused it? I didn't think that Sea Horses bred in tanks commonly, what do you think caused yours too? How old are they? Was it just the 2 in the tank? Were there any special conditions that may have helped them to breed? On a lighter note...they musta look funny "doing it" :lol:

[howdy20012002]

I believe they are about a year old. I personally have only had them for about a month. Maybe tranvictor knows how old they are.
actually SH bred quite regularly in captivity. It is just difficult generally to have any luck with raising the babies.

[woodcarver]

Wow !!!

[Beverly]

Way to go, Neal :biggrin: Very cute babies :biggrin:

Looking back on when we were trying to raise fry, I remember having a fiar amount of water movement in the fry bowl to keep the water oxygenated. I read that you were doing 2 bubbles per second. I'd increase it to at least 5 bubbles per second. That way there's gonna be enough O2 for the growing fry.

I know they are still very, very tiny and may not be able to hitch onto anything yet, but please do anchor some macroalgae for them to hitch to if they can/want.

So far so good!!!! Love the pics :)

[howdy20012002]

Still no casaulties.
Although I think I am going to lose a few cause they aren't moving around that much as the other ones are.
I noticed late last night - early this morning that a few were twitching and scratching. I had read that was a sign of high ammonia. I tested and was at .50. I did about a 30 percent water change and then about a hour later did another 30 percent water change.
I am going to start doing 4 x 30 percent water changes every day. That way I hope that they won't produce too much waste.
In the next couple of days I am going to start up another tank and split them in half. That way the waste won't build up as much.
At this rate, I am not going to have a dining room table left..lol.
I am also going to start the brine shrimp tomorrow so that I get used to that.
Anyways, I am truly surprised that things have been going so well.
I most be doing something right.
Beverley, I am going to add a piece of of macro algae in there tonight.
Give them something to maybe hold onto.
Most of the time they just float around in circles with the current being caused by the slow flow of air bubbles.
they are slowly getting bigger. You can actually see them from across the room now.
I still have tonnes of rotifers in the tank.
I think that this is key for this. I think that perhaps alot of people don't have enough food in the tank for them and the seahorses don't get enough nutrition.
I will post more pics tommorrow.
thanks for the support everyone.
Hopefully in a couple of months a couple of you will be able to buy a couple of these guys from me
I will keep everyone posted.
Neal

[howdy20012002]

Well my first casaulties.
I figured that I would lose a few
I siphoned out 3 bodies and a couple are looking questionable.
Still ain't bad though for my first attempt at this.
Neal

[howdy20012002]

well another good day
No more bodies..but a few still don't look good.
However, still kicking for now.
Am starting to do water changes every 3 or 4 hours about 30 percent.
I had added a piece of algae but pulled it because somehow the seahorses were getting stuck in the roots and I had to rescue a couple.
I added a piece of Halymedia for now. They don't appear to be using it yet though.
thought I would show a couple of photos.
Neal

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Wow.

[niloc16]

this journal is awesome. thanks for the postings

[howdy20012002]

about 5 dead today
I think that I overestimated the number of babies.
I think that I have about 40 left.
Impossible to tell really how many are there.
Split the tank in half and put half of them in another identical setup.
Figure that it would be better this way to split the waste so it doesn't add up as quick.
things are still going well IMO overall.
Still amazed that I have anything at all.
I am keeping the tanks around 76 - 77 degrees.
LMK if you have any questions.

[howdy20012002]

A couple dead today.
the others are doing well.
still doing about 30 percent water change about 4 times a day now that I have split them in half.
things are going well all in all.

[howdy20012002]

9 dead today.
I had thought I was going to lose them.
they had been just hanging out at the bottom for the last couple of days.
the others are still going strong though.
I figure I have around 30 left.
Not bad.
I started growing the brineshrimp yesterday
Not sure when exactly I should add them
Any suggestions?
LMK
thanks
Neal

[Beverly]

Sorry to hear about your losses, Neal :sad: Do you have any idea why they died?

Wish I knew when to add the BBS. All I can tell you is that the fry have to be big enough to eat them BBS are huge compared to rotifers.

[howdy20012002]

I think that I may have killed a couple of them myself.
I siphon the dead bodies out with a hose and tube. After I looked in the glass, I saw that I had actually sucked up a couple of live ones that had just been lying on the ground. (I don't think gettting sucked up thru a tube did them any good)
Like I said though, I had expected to lose them as most of them had been just lying around on the ground for a few days. The others are generally swimming around with the current during the day. The only time they lie on the ground generally are when the lights are off.
I think though that naturally there will be some that just don't make it.
I am sure that there are lots in the wild that die off just for whatever reason besides being lunch for something.
I don't notice them scratching though much, which means the ammonia isn't high.
I dunno
I am still happy with my results.

[michika]

Did you just put the live ones back into the tank?

From what it sounds like you are doing very well!

[howdy20012002]

yes i did put the ones back into the tank.
Except for one, I noticed that his tail had been broken, so I put it out of its misery.
I felt really stupid about the whole thing.
I had tried really hard to make sure that they were dead. But I felt I also just couldn't leave a bunch of bodies in the tank as I was afraid of spiking the ammonia levels because of the decomposing bodies.
IMO, if they were just lying on the ground they probably weren't doing that well in the first place and probably weren't going to make it anyways.
thanks for the support. I am really happy with the results so far.
From what I have read online, I am doing better then the vast majority of people already..so yea..I must be doing something right.

[michika]

How big do they look now?

[howdy20012002]

they are probably about 1 cm in length now
still tiny

[OCDP]

Keep up the good work. Sounds like it takes a lot of effort and time to raise these little guys... I'd say your definitely doing something right here as well.

[howdy20012002]

Well I pulled 9 more bodies out this morning.
The good thing is that the rest are looking good except for 1 or 2 that still hang out at the bottom.
I think that I should slow down on casaulties. I better as I only now have 20 left. But hey day 11...and the fact that I have any left is amazing.
So yea, all in all a good first attempt.
Egads, if Bev is right, then I only have 3 days left before the next batch come.

[SaltLady]

WTG!!

My Kudas' just had babies on Monday. This is my 3rd attemp at raising the fry. While waiting for my rotifers to "grow out" I have been feeding them frozen cyclopeeze and they seem to manage with that ok.

I don't get big brood sizes like you do, though each time I have had fry the number seems to be increasing.

Day 10 for me has always been the critical day, so I am hoping to make it past day 10 this time.

Glad you started a journal, it is very helpful to me and also very interesting!

As for starting to feed bbs, maybe check out http://www.seahorse.org/ I found allot of useful information. They were a great help to me when my horses came down with worms (ewww). Fortunately I was able to get the meds they needed and treat them and they are back in good health :biggrin:

Good Luck and keep us updated!

[woodcarver]

Hey Howdy , Don't know if it will help but ,when I raised thousands of freshwater angels , you could see if they were feeding by the pink colour of their little bellies ,which also extended noticably. Maybe the same thing would work with your little guys. Just a thought......................Dave
P,S. you could just syringe a few shrimp into the rearing tank and watch the bevaviour of the sea horses,again small angel fry can be seen attacking the shrimp .Using a magnifying glass helps . Good Luck

[howdy20012002]

reference the brine shrimp did u decapsulize them before hatching them? or how does that work.
if you didn't, how did u get rid of the shell afterwords?
my fear is that the seahorses with choke on the stupid shell
thanks
Neal

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA023


That's the link cc_bruno sent me about deencapsulating brine shrimp eggs. Worked well for me.

HTH,

Anthony

[michika]

When you hatch brine shrimp you can purchase decapsulated brine shimp or capsulated. When you use capsulated ones, you avoid getting the shells by only draining to a certain point.

If you want I can send you a video link about brine shrimp.

[woodcarver]

Howdy, You dont need decapsulated eggs ,too expensive anyway. If you use the pop bottle method ,when you turn off the air ,the shells float to the top and the shrimp can be drained into a sieve through bottom . It is very easy .It works a treat !! I will try to find a link that shows the set up .............Dave

[howdy20012002]

cool thanks everyone for the advice
if you could find that link it would be great
thanks again
Neal

[woodcarver]

Photo of brine shrimp hatchery.

[woodcarver]

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Leong_Brine_Shrimp_Hatchery.html
Howdy ,This link is a complete photo journal, of setting up a simple hatchery.
If the link does notwork for you just google in' Brine shrimp hatchery' and you will get dozens of sites .
This one is in aquarticles .com.....................Dave

[howdy20012002]

Well, 5 more bodies.
I was finally able to count. 15 left
but at least most of them are looking strong.
still happy with the results
I am going to start another batch of brine shrimp and I will try feeding them tomorrow.
Wish me luck
They are definitely getting bigger. Much easier to see their features now
Neal

[woodcarver]

Howdy ,Can you seeif they are taking any shrimp ?
...................Dave

[howdy20012002]

i haven't been adding the shrimp yet
tomorrow I am going to try
Neal

[michika]

If you follow the Talkingreef Podcast, there is a instructional video on brine shrimp. I'm sorry I was't able to find the link!

[howdy20012002]

I thought things were going smooth a couple of days ago. I had no deaths for that day.
However, there has been a couple of major setbacks yesterday and today.
yesterday, the brine shrimp that I had attempted to hatch didn't hatch so I had no fresh hatched brine shrimp to feed them. I lost 5 yesterday.
And over last night, the airpump vibrated itself off the table and the air hose came out of the bowl.
I lost another 4 this morning.
I now have 2 left.
The good news, the male looks like he is ready to pop again and I think there is going to be alot more this time as he is getting really big.
So, I am going take this as a learning experience and move on with the next batch.

[woodcarver]

I would say 16 days was a good effort . Make sure you brine shrimp eggs are from a reliable source. You should have no problem hatching them .I used to have two bottles on the go which gave me a continuous supply.
Two teaspoons of sea salt per bottle ,good aeration. I stood the bottles in a small tank with a heater in to ensure correct temp and got at least 80 %-90% hatch rate.
Keep trying

[howdy20012002]

Well I have 1 left.
looking good.
and I also now have another batch of about 50 more babies to attempt to raise again. (born Friday)
Man, this is going to be alot of work.
I am going to try to learn how to decapsulate the brine shrimp as I think that may have been why a couple of them died from eating the shell
wish me luck with this new batch.
Neal

[Beverly]

Good luck with the new fry, Neal :)

[woodcarver]

Hey Neil , Good luck with the new batch . Not to be pushy but you should not need to de-capsulate the brine shrimp eggs . :) :) If you are using the pop bottle method the shrimp and shells are completely separated when you allow the hatched shrimp to syphon out of the bottom airline leaving the shells on the top of the water ! If you want to make absolutely certain shine a light at the bottom of the bottle ,as the shrimp are attracted to the light.
Hope the last little guy survives.
....................Dave

[DiscusZ]

When I was breeding angels, austrialian rainbows I used the capsulated . as far as I remember the decaps would not hatch.

To avoid getting shells in your live BBS I turned off the air for about 20 mins or so. then I turned on a light near the base(already had a hard air tube in to syphon out the BBS) the shells will float to the surface. never had any problems with shells.


I too used a 2l pop bottle. I drilled the hole through the ca which was no the bottom. inserted a rigid airline tube in and siliconed it.


Good luck

Jim

[woodcarver]

http://www.bettatalk.com/hatching_brine_shrimp.htm

[woodcarver]

http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/Brine-Shrimp-Eggs-c2.html

[Raf]

What type of horses are they, I believe Anthony already asked you?

As for your losses, we have tried raising reidi's several times and found that the losses seem to come from three main reasons, some which you may have done trying to raise yours.

Firstly, if the babies snick air, they are good as dead. It seems they cannot evacuate those tiny bubbles stuck in their gut. You have to be very careful while catching them in the main tank and then transporting them into their own tank. This is problem is further escalated once you use an airpump to create current only to find micro bubbles sticking to the glass bowl or floating in the water coloumn for you babies to snick. Also, be careful where you place the light on their tank. These guys are attracted to light instinctvely, so if you place a light on top of their tank, they have a good chance at snicking air.

Secondly, ammonia poisoning. Having them in such a small bowl and feeding them so much food so often will give you major headaches with ammonia spikes. This is a major killer and no doubt a cause of some of your death IMO. It is vital to find a balance of tank size, food concentration and MOST IMPORTANTLY waterchanges leading to superior water quality.

Lastly, feeding the correct food at the right times. Yes rotifers are great, but are they eating them? or are the rotifers droping from pH or temp shock as soon as they enter your baby tank, hence ammonia problems. BBS is important too, but when to make the transition? Also, I have heard numerous problems with baby horses overfeeding on BBS or getting damaged by BBS in their guts. BTW, decapsulating BBS eggs is very easy using bleech.

All in all, the difficulty of raising ponies depends on the SPECIES and the equipment used and of course your experience raisng these guys.

Anyways, thats all I gots to say, good luck with the next batch but don't get dissapointed if history repeats itself. If these guys where easy we would see $1.99 weekend specials on ponies at the LFS.

[howdy20012002]

As far as I know, they are reidis.

[DiscusZ]

one thing you can do is use SW from your tanks. I have done this with great success as well.

Good luck on the 2nd batch of Seahorses


jim

[Murminator]

Hey Neal I tried raising some FW ram fry a few times with no luck :sad: I recently bought some german rams from a breeder and he gave me tips on raising them that seemed so simple, maybe it will work on the ponies.
He would put the babies in a tupperware container, just a round 4" one, and just let it float around in the main tank with a air line with about 1 bubble every 2 seconds just for water movement and he would have like 150 babies in it. The reason why this rather than it's own tank it like puting 200 babies in a gymnasium then throwing food in there, they are young and haven't learned to find food or eat yet, so by conentrating them in a small area they learn faster cause food is always floating around in there. And water changes a simple just dip the dish down a bit and viola done new water just make sure your don't swish them out :mrgreen:
Now that I know all this think my rams will lay eggs???
HTH

[howdy20012002]

thanks everyone for the advice and tips
I will try a couple of them in the future.
this second batch isn't doing all that well
I think I may have overdosed them on Prime.
I was adding some every water change and I was doing waterchanges every 3 hours...so yea, too much chemicals.
they are moving around more now, but they weren't looking good over the weekend...I haven't removed any bodies yet because I am finding it difficult to tell whether or not they are dead or alive. There are lots of them just lying on the ground, but they are still moving around.
I still have one alive from the first batch.
I am feeding it baby brine shrimp and Rotifers.
I am putting in Phytoplankton into the tank as well in hopes to keep the food alive for while and ensure that they are nutrutious enough to sustain the seahorse.
Raf - reference the rotifers - I take out tank water everyday out of tanks to replace the water that I take the rotifers out with.
I have 10 gallons of rotifers going at all times and generally switch about 4 - 5 gallons of the water everyday out of my different tanks.
the ph and such should be relatively the same as the water in the baby seahourse tank as I have taken the water out of the main SH tank.
I don't think the rotifers are dying in the baby seahorse tank.
I belive that the water conditions were the biggest problem of the deaths...
I am trying to do more water changes and although I want to have some prime in the water, I definitely was putting in way too much.
Lessons learned.
As well, I increased the amount of air bubbles. I am not using a stone, I just have a tube into the bottom of the tank that causes the current to keep them moving and yet, producing no noticable air bubbles to create any issues that I am aware of.
I realize that I always have the chance of some small bubbles, but can't think of any other way to do this. they definitely need some movement and air.
The lamp I do have is at the bottom of the tank so to attract them to the bottom. at the same time, the rotifers and brine shrimp are attracted to the same area. Thus making them easier for the SH to eat.
I have yet to decapsulate the bringe shrimp and am undecided to which way I am going to go. I have read that the shells can cause the death of the SH cuz they get stuck in the mouth.
However, I am really really busy with my Limo company, my career in the army and my Salt water business and am finding that I just don't have enought time to do everything.
So yea, decapsulating may wait a little and I might just continue on with the way I am currently doing things. Currently, this consists of turning off the air supply and allowing the rotifers to settle to the bottom and then siphoning them into the SH tank...I add newly hatched without adding anything. After the first day, I start adding flake food and enrichment formula to feed the brine shrimp to keep them going and nutritional.
My biggest thing is once they are in the baby SH tank, how do I keep them alive and nutritious. I am currently adding phytoplankton in hopes that will work..but any other suggestions would be appreciated. I definitely don't want to add the enrichment formula as the cost would be higher than I want to incur.
thanks again for the advice and if anyone has any suggestions to what I am doing that would be greatly appreciated as I am definitely not an expert in the area of raising them.

[Diana]

Try visiting www.seahorse.org and have a look at some people's reidi setups. I cannot offer any great advice since I have been trying to raise reidi fry for a while now with no luck. The longest I've had one live is 2 weeks. My ponies give birth to over 200 fry every 2 weeks, and its disheartening to flush them but I just dont have the time for them right now.

With reidis its extremely important to keep them away from the surface of the water. That is the reason why the airline tubing is in there, to keep em down near the bottom. So the positioning of the tubing is critical- it needs to create a circular flow pushing the fry quickly back down to the bottom if they happen to catch a ride to the top. Obviously the airline helps with airation, but IMO preventing them from snicking air is the biggest challenge.

How can you tell if they snick air? Its quite easy. You'll see a shiny little bubble in thier 'throat' area. I'd say 80% of my fry have air bubbles by the time I see them in the morning (they are usually always born at night). If you have difficulty seeing the air bubble then try shining a light on them to make sure they do or dont.

I think on seahorse.org its the general consensus that a "kriesel" setup works the best. You'll need a plastic fishbowl. I have yet to try this setup, but once I get some time I will give it a go.

Anywhoo, I'm not sure if it helped, but it would be fantastic if you had succsess with your fry. I cant wait to be able to raise the little tykes. Reidis are definately one of the hardest species to raise... I'm looking into adding another species that have fry that might be a little easier.
:)
-Diana

[howdy20012002]

Thanks Diane for the info.
I got alot of my info from Seahorse.org.
I think that my last batch of babies might have done alot of snicking.
unfortunately not many are left.
However, the one left from the orginal batch is still going strong.
I am feeding it BBS enriched with selco. I hatch a new batch every 2 or 3 days. feed them right away after the birth, then starting feeding and enriching every day so that they are still nutritional for the SH.
Alot of work though for one little guy.
But I am very proud of the fact that the little dude is still going.
it is still really tiny though.
I will keep posting the progress.
Neal