Evil has a new name.......DINOFLAGELLATES

[christyf5]

HELP!
ammonia = 0
nitrate = 0
phosphate = 0
calcium = 330 (don't know what the heck is happening here)
alkalinity = 2.0 meq
temp = 24.9 C
48G tank, 2x250W Iwasaki MH, @#$%^ Berlin XL skimmer
This was beginning to be a problem about 2 weeks ago but has escalated to this. Suggestions included heavier skimming (yeah right with that skimmer :rolleyes: ) and water changes. 25% water change done Sept 25thish, 50% water change done Oct 2, another 50% water change tonight. Water is RO/DI tests negative for phosphages.

full tank with algae in water column
http://www3.telus.net/seamonkey68/fulltankalgae.JPG

my hammer coral is close to the end I think
http://www3.telus.net/seamonkey68/hammeralgae.JPG

Any other suggestions??? And I thought hair algae was bad. :x

Christy :(

[canadawest]

Here is my $0.02 worth.

At first glance your Alk level is too low. Your calcium level shouldn't be a contributing factor.

What do you have for clean-up crew? I suspect that a couple more snails, some hermits and possibly a tiger-tail cuke would make short work of that.

Also, try some phosphate sponge. Even though your phosphate level reads zero, it could be that the algae is consuming it all so it shows as '0'. By using a phosphate sponge you will help to starve the algae of its main food source (light being the other).

Same attack method as hair algae. Reduce phosphates, high alkalinity, reduced photoperiod, healthy sized clean-up crew, regular (but not excessive) water changes.

It'll be a couple week eyesore, but should eventually run it's course with the above help. :(

[EmilyB]

Hi, :D

In conjunction with my recent learning experience, have you checked TDS output from the DI ? I kept testing output water for phosphate too, and it never registered, but TDS was too high (cartridges spent).

[sea gnome]

Hi Christy, wondered how the tank was doing as I hadn't seen you on the board recently. I think your tank is too close to mine and has become infected by it. :? I got some phosgard from Jayson and it seems to holding it at bay at the moment, perhaps improving it. If you like you could get some off me and try it.

[titus]

Hello,

Yes I'd suspect all the algae is consumption the phosphate. Much like an equalibrium state if you want to think in terms of chemistry. I also suggest removing as much algae as you can off the corals so they won't be out grown. I don't know but maybe you can also take some snapshots of how much stuff your skimmer is pulling out, and perhaps even get a loaner skimmer off someone.

Titus

[reefburnaby]

Hi

Wow.... Don't panic....it just makes things worse. Umm....lights out for a couple of days....this should help control things a bit and gives you time to read up and get things ready. If you still haven't figure things out after a couple of days, time to get a rubbermaid tub and place all of the precious stuff (corals) in there -- make sure the dinos are cleaned off before placing in the tub. Fishes should be okay...just make sure that there is lots of oxygen exchange.

So, dinos, as you know, are a very aggresive algae that feed on nutrients. So, the best way to fight these guys is...export nutrients. Do you have a refugium ? If not...no problem...time to get that skimmer tuned up.

Well....you might need to spend a $150 to get the skimmer up and running at full steam. What kind of a pump are you using to the drive this skimmer ? If it is the regular Red Sea pump....that's probably your problem. You'll need to upgrade it to something serious like a Mag 7 with Kent Venturi. Chemical filtration might work, but I think the skimmer will make a bigger dent in to the problem. Boasting alk levels helps to.

Oh...you might want to find a local mentor to help you with this. Brad and Steve are Canreef mentors who are from the island.

Good luck.

- Victor.

[sumpfinfishe]

:shock: Ouch that's quite the bloom! I feel for ya Christy, that's gotta hurt!
I would recomend removing all corals and cleaning them free of as much alage as possible. Quaritine all corals in a seperate tank while you deal with this if possible, as your corals look like they are getting totally choked out by all that hair and slime. Then I would start from the bottom and work your way up, look at water quality(top up or water change h20), overdosing of any additives, any sudden deaths within the reef, and so on and so on. You may find that it could turn out to be something simple before something complex. (Just my 2cents) Goodluck :!: :(

[christyf5]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies

Andrew, my alk has always been low. I just can't seem to get it up :wink: I don't know, I use that Kent Superbuffer and it seems to go up after adding it for a week and then the very next day when I don't add it it goes right back down. I guess I don't know what I am doing.
As for the cleanup crew, I am decidedly against sea cucs. I don't seem to have much success with fish/inverts and something that big could nuke my tank. I have 6 emerald crabs, several snails (dinner for the hermits) and about 20 hermits in there as well as a queen conch (no flames please). the snails seem to kick off a few days after adding them and they just lay there and let it all hang out. The other snails seem to be having some sort of executive meeting on whether they should join the others in hanging out.


EmilyB, Hmm, TDS eh? I'll have to see what I can find at work. I'm sure someone has something, either that or I can run my water thru a spectrophotometer. I'm sure someone knows how to do it. The cartridge was just replaced in January and they usually last quite a long time. the water filters out at 18.2microns I think, 18.2 somethingorother. Hmm, I should pay more attention to the machine (its in the chemistry lab at work, I work at a marine research station).

Rachel, yep I been laying low lately. This has got me really irate tho. I need to get to a meeting so I can get excited about this again. I just got rid of the hair algae and it like this one has no competition so yahoo! Thanks for the offer of the phosguard. I have some and put it in the tank tonight after the water change.

Titus, you would laugh if you saw the puny amount of skimmate this POS puts out. Of course, that is when it is working. Its also dependent on how much water you have in the sump and lets face it my sump sucks the big kahuna. I guess I should look into buying a better skimmer since I just wasted $80 on livestock that died from this bloody algae. It should have gone towards a decent skimmer.

Well I guess I'll just keep on with these water changes. Hopefully something will click.
Thanks for the input guys!

Christy :)

[AJ_77]

Hi, you may remember my "Green Tank" threads from the summer.
Well, I went with Jayson's advice and shut down the lights for 2 days over the weekend after running the Kent phosphate sponge. Then the 25w UV sterilizer was plugged in with a low flow-through (thanks Mitch). Yesterday, the water became noticeably more clear, and I held my breath.

This was the beginning of my cure; my phosphates weren't registering either. But they were there aplenty, and feeding the plague. I hope you have the same result as I did then - a clear tank again. Hang in there!

Alan

[Bryan]

I battled this plague a couple of years ago, as a matter of fact my tank looked similiar in outbreak as yours. Something is fueling the dino's and they compete for nutrients better than other algea so they fluorish. Massive water changes coupled with turning off the lights for 3-4 days will help considerably. Cover the tank with a blanket so no light enters the tank. Can you add some additional circulation?

I think you are going to have to invest in a better skimmer!

[Archie]

Drip kalkwasser every night and upgrade to a better skimmer.
The kalk will help by phosphate precipitation and export through skimming. It should also help with your low calcium levels and will boost your coralline algae growth which will in turn outcompete the nuisance algae. Keep maintaining your alk with the Kent product. Sometimes you have to give it a major dosage boost before you can keep the levels maintained for any lasting duration.

I've seen a few used Turboflotors kicking about on various Canadian boards for as low as $150. They're actually a pretty decent skimmer once you add a small air pump to push more air into its venturi. They're a good choice before the jump up into the next tax bracket. If you want one that will last you a lifetime and help you grow into a bigger tank, look at some of the Canadian made becket head units like the Canreef or Saltwater Connection models. Well worth the extra $$$

IMHO, dinoflagelletes are often over look by most clean up crew critters and herbivorous fish.

HTH, Archie

[Jack]

Hey christy, it's Jack.

I can keep your sps longer, it's not a problem. You had hair algae and now this! Ah man, but don't give up. I'm starting to wonder if it's mabye your water source. Last time I saw your tank it looked great and now trouble again..

Private message me and we can meet up sometime. Talk to you later and good luck.

-Jack

[SuperFudge]

Hi Christy,

Youll get it beat,im sure. :cry:

I think a large part of the diatoms may be the large water changes you have done,Almost like putting your tank thru mini cycles....
Remember the ones we get when we fire up a tank for the first time?...sort of like that.

Did you notice an increase of diatoms after the first water change?

Kalkwasser would be a good idea,but after your alk has been brought up with buffers,kalkwasser will help to maintain the alk...so if it is low now,it will help only to keep it low.
Instead i would use buffers only and religiously until its back to normal.

Recent lighting changes also make a huge difference.

The Berlin XL should be more than enouph for your present coral and fish load,so if it is working properly with a decent pump i doubt wether that is your problem.

Your soft corals look shrunken,are they always like this ?

[ldzielak]

Christy,

I will be passing through on Thursday, heading up from Vic. If you need anything, I can pick it up for you. I could also maybe take some of your corals in for ya, of pass them along to Jack on the way.

Let me know.

Lee

[StirCrazy]

Ok now so fare I have heard some people call this dinoflagelletes and some call it diatoms, to me it looks like gold/brown algae. I get blooms like that (well maby not quite as bad) if I am late cleaning my skimmer by more than a week. I have also put togeather some observations that when I stop dripping kalk for a week and oneof thease blooms apears it is much worse than if I am dripping kalk.

My tang eats it, my lawnmower eats it, my flame angel eats it.. and my two fighting conches eat it.. when they arn't hiding :roll:

I have atributed it to high nutrents because I have a tendencey to over feed and when my skimmer isn't up to snuff and clean they get out of control.. this latest bloom I am having is a result of 1: not dripping kalk, 2: adding 2 sheets of nori for the Pigs each day, and 3: forgetting to clean my skimmer last weekend (got it today). also it doesent help that my two conch are taking a holladay and burried themselves to grow a bit...

Steve

[christyf5]

Well quite frankly I think it was because I fed my tang some nori and I don't think he ate it. I think he yanked it off the elastic and it went and died somewhere in a rock. At least thats all I can think of. And the algae bloom didn't happen after a major water change. Come to think of it I never do major water changes. If I do do a water change its only about 5 gallons (don't laugh :roll: ). Besides, everyone has been saying to do these huge water changes. Somebody make up your minds :p

Anyway, I think I'll maybe hold off on the water changes and see what I can do about this crappy skimmer. I bought the "turbo" kit for it but quite frankly I have no respect for it. maybe i need that venturi kit or something. Beats me, I guess I don't know enough about skimmers other than the fact that I don't want to pay $500 for one. I'm gonna try leaving the lights off too for a day or so and see what happens. This is getting extremely frustrating. I was thinking, oh cool, its not green but I think I would rather have the hair algae, at least it didn't foul the water :p

Jack, thanks for holding onto my SPS, I don't think they would be too happy with the living conditions I have to offer at the moment.

Thanks for the help and the encouraging words!

Christy :)

[StirCrazy]

I fed my tang some nori and I don't think he ate it.

And the algae bloom didn't happen after a major water change.

I bought the "turbo" kit for it but quite frankly I have no respect for it. maybe i need that venturi kit or something. Beats me, I guess I don't know enough about skimmers other than the fact that I don't want to pay $500 for one. Christy :)

looks like we have 3 commen factors here, lots of nori, not from water changes, and degraded or insufficent skimming. Do you drip kalk Christy?

Steve

[christyf5]

Nope I don't drip kalk, I do however add that Kent Superbuffer stuff. Not that it seems to do much for my tank but I do it anyway.

And as for the nori its amazing that such a small piece could cause such a horrible problem. The piece was only about 2cmx4cm or so. Just my luck!

Christy :)

[StirCrazy]

but if your skimmer wasn't preforming then it woulden't take much to push the nutrents levels over the top.. I asked about kalk as it is suposed to bind phosphates and remove them from the water colum. weather that is comming into play here I don't know but it seams to make a difference for me.

Steve

[reefburnaby]

Chiristy,

If you visit reefcentral and search for Red Sea Skimmer. You'll get a huge number of threads regarding frustrated users with this skimmer. Most people thought the skimmer was a nice...paper weight. The common cure...bigger pump and better venturi. Even the turbo venturi thingy didn't turn many heads.

Oh...some dinos are toxic to snails and other critters. So, you'll need to remove the algae by hand + brush or siphon.

Good luck.

- Victor.

[Aquattro]

Christy, your website says you have a CPR bakpak, but here you say you have a Red Sea Berlin skimmer. If it's the red sea Berlin XL, that is more than enough skimmer for a 48g tank. I had one on my 75 and was very happy with it. It isn't in the beckett class for sure, but it does a decent job on smaller tanks. What kind of pump are you running with it? I would get a half full collection cup in about 3 days, and it was really thick smelly black gunk. I suspect it isn't working right if you're not getting the same.
As for nori, I lose half a sheet at a time in the rocks quite often...doesn't give me any problems at all.
I'm going to be in Nanaimo this week end or next; would you like me to stop by and take a look at your skimmer?

[canadawest]

I agree with Brad, I've seen enough "skimmer" talk in this thread. There is no reason to believe that a Berlin XL skimmer isn't handling the bioload in a 48g tank. Hell I've got a Berlin Classic HO skimmer on my 100g tank and it seems to keep up. :?

While I'm not arguing that the Berlin is comparible to the MONSTER becket oversized skimmers that many people on here have, it does do a great job when tweaked a bit. I run mine with a MAG 7 and will soon replace the stock venturi with an aftermarket Kent one. These simple upgrades help the skimmer to perform at it's peak, which should easily handle most bioloads on most tanks under 150g. Sure it's no big bad becket skimmer, but it's also not $400-$600! (only cost me $150 for the skimmer, $30 for a used MAG 7, and soon to be $30 for a Kent Venturi = $210 for a decent skimmer) :)

In my experience with hair algae, the main contributors have been phosphates and low alkalinity. I attribute the demise of my hair algae outbreak to my maintenance of high alkalinity with Kent SuperBuffer, dripping of kalk to precipitate phosphates, and maintenance of skimmer to maintain peak performance. I'm sure that my small refugium with caulerpa and assorted other algaes also contributed to the starvation of the main tank algae menace.

Like others have said to you Christy, don't panic as time usually sorts these things out. Keep adding your SuperBuffer to increase/maintain your alk levels, drip kalk or use phosphate sponge/guard to diminish phosphates and consider setting up part of your sump as a refugium with some caulerpa to help maintain low nutrient levels in future. And if you wish to get the most out of your skimmer, lose the Turbo pump and replace it with a MAG 7 and a Kent Venturi.

HTH

[Aquattro]

Christy, I can also bring you a free sample of kalk. I'm not sure what a "turbo" pump is, but the recommended pump for those skimmers is a MAG 7. Believe me, that skimmer can handle your tnak just fine!!

[Troy F]

For the audio daily double:

I'm going to be in Nanaimo this week end or next; would you like me to stop by and take a look at your skimmer?

What are reefkeeping pick up lines. :)

Good luck Christy, you've received some good advice. Siphon as much out as you can while doing your water change.[/i]

[christyf5]

Hi guys!

Man I need to update my website :D

Brad, let me know when you are going to be in town and we'll figure something out.


I put the call out for a mag 7 on the buy/sell board. Hopefully something will turn up there or I'll have to hit up J&L for one. Does anyone have any info/$$ or a link to this kent venturi thing?


I don't really think I'm panicking but this whole thing is frustrating. All I would like is a couple of months to really enjoy my tank. Instead I have this feeling of dread when I come downstairs to look at the tank. I don't think I've really enjoyed my tank much in the last 5 months it seems to be one thing after another.

Christy :)

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

The venturi is available at J&Ls.

- Victor.

[sumpfinfishe]

Troy-I will take "can I change your water for $400" :lol:

As for Christy-lot's of good advice here, maybe look at your water quality before it goes into the tank(phosphates).

As for nori being the source problem-no, I would say not as I feed my tang the same and sometimes he doesn't get it all, it falls to the rocks where the crabs or snails would cleanup any leftovers- and that's in a 27gl.

The skimmer your using should also be more than enough-if you haven't got a Mag 7 on there, that would kick up the performance big time :!:

Maybe it's not such a bad idea to let a trust worthy reefer or two come over for a second opinion.
my two bits-Rich :)

[vwguy26]

if u are going to buy a new mag pump i would atleast get the 9.5 maybe even the 12 if u can afford it.mag 7 is to small

[SuperFudge]

Oh,

I thought you had said you did a 25 % and a 50% water change,and about to do another 50%. :?

I thought you may have some problems doing this.
Sorry to have confused the issue further.

[Aquattro]

i would atleast get the 9.5 maybe even the 12 if u can afford it.mag 7 is to small

RedSea recommends the MAG 7. You can verify this with Darlene at head office.
I have used up to a MAG 18 on one of these skimmers and it was no better than the 7. And since the 7 is so much cheaper than the 12, I see no point in spending money tht isn't needed.

[vwguy26]

maybe for the classic but for the xl i have experienced better results with a larger pump and have heard from other people to go larger than a mag 7.this pump will work but why not spend a few more bucks for one a bit bigger.

[canadawest]

Ditto to Brad's last comment (man you keep beating me to them, don't you EVER log off?) :lol:

I've also read of many hobbiests experiments with larger pumps on the Berlin skimmer, specifically 9.5 and 12 models. The concensus has been that after the MAG 7, the increase in skimming is minimal at best, just wasting money on a larger pump, and using more electricity to run it.

For the difference in price between a MAG 7 and MAG 9.5 ($25) your money would be much better spent on a Kent Turbo Venturi to replace the factory Berlin venturi. This upgrade, coupled with the MAG 7, apparently causes the Berlin to skim like nobodys business!

[christyf5]

Marc,

The algae came on really slowly, well it just sort of appeared on the sandbed and such but wasn't too terrible. Someone told me to do a water change so I did a 25%. That didn't help and the algae was progressing. Then after going away for a couple of days the algae was just gross. It was starting to clog my corals and the sandbed was a mess. I was told to do a bigger water change (50%). This didn't help. So now I guess I concentrate on the skimmer issue.

Is that a bit clearer? :D

Christy :)

[Aquattro]

Christy, you have mail.

[sea gnome]

Hi Christy, how's the tank? I took the advice you were given by the others for my tank and scrubbed by rocks. Chromis got upset and died! Had the tank blocked of from all light and ajter three days turned lights back on. Algae all ready back again with in the week. Aaagh! Phosgard changed every week with 5%water change. Alk is 2.94. Any more suggestions????
Rachel

[Aquattro]

Rachel, what type of algae do you have? First thing I would do is try and get the alk up closer to 4. Next you might want to invite some of the Victoria guys to come see your tank. Maybe we can figure it out together! :D

[sea gnome]

Hi Brad, HAIR algae, and I seem to think I offered to host a meeting on Sat. but no one ofered to come up :D :D . I could have you guys up on rememberence day since I am off or perhaps on the 10 if it was the middle of the afternoon as I get off nights that morning and I need some beauty sleep :) Would that work for anyone??? Rachel

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Yupe, I would agree that a high alk will help slow down the growth of green algae. If you are not doing it already, I would drip kalk in to the system to help bring the pH up and control the pH swings. Keeping alk will hold the algae at bay for a while, but it can't keep it there forever.

Hair algae usually means there isn't enough nutrient export. Nutrient import comes from food, light and other sources. Nutrient export is usually our skimmer and a refugium. So, you'll have to decide how you want to improve your nutrient export or how to reduce your unwanted nutrient import. Basically, a balance between import and export is needed. So, this is something you'll need to work at in the long term.

Good luck !

- Victor.

[christyf5]

Hey guys,

Rachel, well I don't really know what the secret is. I tried scrubbing (really frustrating), and increasing the alkalinity. My skimmer is the next thing to try. I don't have hair algae anymore. I would mostly attribute that to a lawnmower blenny, kole tang and 4 emerald crabs. However I do have this ungodly disgusting brown dusty algae now which annoys me to no end and is totally wreaking havoc on my corals. My next move is to try a more powerful pump on my skimmer but I'm getting really frustrated. Nobody is happy inside or outside of my tank!

Christy :)

[sea gnome]

HI Christy, ok make me jealous, no hair algae!!!! I have a good skimmer and it is working great. I have refungium with lots of calerpa(sp?) and a sump, neither of them have any hair algae. There is even 12 hr of light above them. I have 2 emerald crabs and some other crabs. Ithink I need more emeralds (4) and maybe another sally light foot to replace the one that died. Iam trying to get the alk up and the test kit for pH shows it is stable at 8. I think I need you guys up for the visual inspection if we can work something out. :D . Rachel

[reefburnaby]

Sea gnome,

Sounds like you are doing the right things. :)

The low pH is a bit distracting, but it is fairly common with hair algae and it should get better as the hair algae receeds. How often do you harvest the calerpa and have you considered boosting the lighting time for the refugium to 24/7. 24/7 lighting should help calerpa grow more often and reduce the chances of it going sexual.

Good luck !

- Victor.