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[Dale]

Is anyone running a cold water set up? In particular focussing on Pacific / BC flora and fauna. I am considering such a project and am looking for experiences and insights. I am thinking of doing this:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/TIDALTANK.jpg

The pump will be set on a six hour rotating timer to simulate two tides / day (on off on off) When the pump is on it fills the display to the high tide mark and then drains to the sump. When the pump is off it backflows and drains the display down to the low tide mark.
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[wetcoast]

Would be very interested in seeing how you progress with this. Once I move back to Vancouver I am contemplating a similar setup and doing some diving to collect small amounts of inverts.

I have looked at pictures of Steve W.'s setup from Oregonreef.com and have been blown away. He is running 2 tanks with the majority of it collected from the Puget Sound area if I recall correct. Apparently lighting is not so much an issue as the requirement of a chiller.

I have yet to dive in the pacific northwest so I really have no idea what I'm in store for but have not thought the same since I found a book in chapters recently that focused on marine life in the PacNW. Good luck on this.

[Delphinus]

Tide idea is kinda interesting but I wonder if you'd really get much out of it. The problem I see with intertidal critters is there's nothing really keeping them in the tank unless it's sealed off (cover glass or whatever).

The Ucluelet Aquarium Society has a coldwater SW display tank at the Wickaninnish Interpretive Centre and it's an awesome setup. I'd love to try coldwater someday.

The main concern I've always had about coldwater setups is the sweat on the glass. Thicker walls are needed, although I've seen public aquaria that simply had fans blowing on the glass to keep the condensation under control, so I guess that's an option too maybe.

Funny you mentioned this, by coincidence, I was just reading about Steve's setup earlier this evening. I don't see a whole lot of info on his oregonreef.com site though, but there are pics in threads on RC.

[Dale]

Thanks for the replies.
Funny as well, I was just talking today about the condensation issue. It won't be that much of an issue for most of the tank as it will be in the garage and based on its (the garage) ambient temperature. The front pane however will be a cut out into the entryway and may fog up.

Any links to the RC threads? I started looking but :confused:

I also checked out oregonreef.com - Hokeydina!!! I am planning a similar set up in the garage (not quite that big) and not seven feet off the ground. My hat's off to that beautiful money pit.

I've toyed with the coldwater theme for some time and it is a go - the tidal pool is a may be. I have a tank drilled in a way to replicate it but I'm not sure I want to limit my livestock choices.
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[Bryan]

One could probably build a louver vent in the front of the tank that blew air up the front pane of the glass to evaporate the swwat. It could be just a slot cut into the top front of the stand and a vent pipe connected to the slot to a fan.


The main concern I've always had about coldwater setups is the sweat on the glass. Thicker walls are needed, although I've seen public aquaria that simply had fans blowing on the glass to keep the condensation under control, so I guess that's an option too maybe.

[StirCrazy]

why isn't this kind of tank done very often, huge tank costs, bacicily you need a double walled acrylic tank to stop the condensation. Huge chiller costs, takes way more to cool a tank than heat it. Lighting, believe it or not critters still get a fair bit of light up here, but instead of the 250 HQis you could probably get away with a Good VHO, PC, T5, or small MH set up.

as for the tide issue, good idea but hard to do. you need a pump that pumps slow enuf to take 5 hours to fill up the other tank, then your drain has to drain slow enuf to take 5 hours to drain down. that will give you your hour "slack tide" that you see in nature. Also man will that tank stink at low tide so I don't know if I would wantit in a living area:mrgreen:

Steve

[Ruth]

Here is a link to a RC cold water or temperate water thread. I believe that Steve Weast (Oregonreef) also has information on his site about his beautiful cold water reef.
I recall reading it a while ago and basically as Steve has said - thick glass and large chiller costs are the basic drawbacks as well as the cost and difficultly of acquiring livestock unless you can collect it yourself.

[Ruth]

Here is a link to a RC cold water or temperate water thread. I believe that Steve Weast (Oregonreef) also has information on his site about his beautiful cold water reef.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=890751
I recall reading it a while ago and basically as Steve has said - thick glass and large chiller costs are the basic drawbacks as well as the cost and difficultly of acquiring livestock unless you can collect it yourself.

[Delphinus]

I can't find a whole lot of info on Steve's site about his coldwater setup, but in that link Ruth provided, he talks about it some and shows some pictures.

I'm not too sure how much light you would really "need". I'm thinking you could go as much as you wanted, but I think you could get away with far less than a tropical reef, seeing as most critter's you're likely to keep in a coldwater setup aren't photosynthetic.

If you're ever in the Tofino/Ucluelet area, check out that tank at the Wickaninnish. Fish, hermits, anemones, bizarre snails, stars, etc. It's a great setup.

I'd love to try something like this someday too. Lots of neat stuff on our own coastlines!

[Matt]

Great thread. I was recently absolutely stunned by the Vancouver Aquariums coastal displays. They really put their tropical reef displays to shame, in some ways.

Steve Weast's tanks on that RC thread are also beautiful, but he isn't keeping a puget sound theme -- a lot of his livestock is from Australia's temperate zones, and generally from a slightly warmer climate.

IIRC, he runs a 1/2hp Iwaki(?) chiller, and during the summer it runs 30mins on, 1hr off.

I'm not thinking of running a temperate marine setup, but I'm awfully glad that others are - the beauty of them is very inspiring. I'm even thinking of taking a dive on the west coast next summer, and I HATE cold-water diving.

[Delphinus]

I was recently absolutely stunned by the Vancouver Aquariums coastal displays. They really put their tropical reef displays to shame, in some ways.

I agree, they really do. They need to revamp that tropical section. I assume it's coming sooner or later. The BC coast displays are fantastic, I love seeing them everytime I get a chance to.

[Dale]

Good replies all, thanks.
I'll look into those threads and links.


Some thoughts:
For me the hobby is as much about tinkering and DIY as it is about the livestock. I find I am pleased but bored with tanks once they are stable so I either wind up with ten tanks (been there) or need a big project I can really sink my teeth into.
After much "negotiation" with the boss, I am consigned to the unheated garage to construct my fishroom - if I ever want one (no I don't park in there :smile: ). With that in mind I can either go tropical or coldwater. Tropical in a cool garage = big humidity problems and constant heating, two things I wish to avoid. Plus, I want to eventually run a large system and can't rationalize the extreme cost of LR and store bought corals. So I want to come up with a (relatively) low cost/low tech set up that will consume my ever waking moment :rolleyes: Yes, I plan to stock from the wild.

I've been monitoring the temps in there for a year now and it dips to low 40's in the winter and 60's in the summer. Close enough for a coldwater coastal setup using ambient room temps I hope (no heaters or chillers). This means there will be no condensation issues for the tank in the garage (other than evaporation due to water movement and lights), leaving just the one pane cut through the entryway wall to worry about. I am considering fan tubes running between the studs and venting out the top sill of the cut out.

For the tidal effect I had planned to use a very undersized pump so that it takes a long time to fill up to the high tide drain. Once it hits that mark it can pump for the rest of the cycle like a conventional display/sump set up. I have to think about draining though. It is a good point that I don't want it to backflow too fast or some species may be caught high and dry by accident.

I plan to do more research on species that can handle the slightly warmer overall temps (60 -40F.) but I think tidal zone species fit the bill as their temps are all over the map anyways.

I'll edit this post with a layout of the fishroom design

Here it is. This is one half of our two car garage. I have to build some walls and the tank is shown in two phases. First the 140G. I have now and then a larger plywood tank I plan to build this winter. The empty wall allows for more tanks in the future.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/garagefishroom3.jpg
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[StirCrazy]

one other thing to note, our water temp only verries by about 3 or 4 degrees between summer and winter.

Steve

[Scavenger]

Good replies all, thanks.
I'll look into those threads and links.



I plan to do more research on species that can handle the slightly warmer overall temps (60 -40F.) but I think tidal zone species fit the bill as their temps are all over the map anyways.

Here's a good starting point for your research.

http://hmsc.oregonstate.edu/projects/msap/index.html

[Delphinus]

I applaud your efforts to engineer an intertidal zone but I'm really sort of stuck on what animals in the intertidal zone you wish to showcase? All the things I can think of in that zone, are maybe things that could easily do without the low tide (or could just have a section of land/rock in the tank that is above the waterline, like a paludarium of sorts, where the in-betweeners could go if they so desired).

Any fish, mollusk, starfish, etc. that can tolerate being in an intertidal zone can likely do just fine without being exposed at low tide. The only exception I can think of are those little beach crabs.. And I dunno, I think a beach area in the tank could probably service them just as well as anything (and could be an interesting feature point of the tank as well).

Again, it's something interesting to engineer, I've often thought about ways to accomplish it as well, but in the end I wonder if it's really necessary, i.e., if you could enjoy a coldwater habitat without the varying water levels of a tide.

Another method is to have two overflows, and an actuated ball valve on the lower overflow. Dial back the lower overflow so that it's a super slow drain anyhow. Then open and close the actuated valve every six hours. There ya go, I gave you an idea just to show I'm not completely raining on your dream :p

[Dale]

Thanks for the link scavenger - just what I'm looking for!

D - No raining on parades here :biggrin: Kicking the ideas around and looking for the weaknesses is an important part of designing. Better to see the pitfalls on paper (VDT) than afterward.

I'm committed to the C.W. tank but not the tidal pool per say. It is a design I've been kicking around in my head for a while and I may set it up barebones just to see what happens. I like the idea of putting a super slow valve on the low tide drain. The tank has 4 bulkheads in the bottom so one could go:
standpipe #1 - high tide drain
standpipe #2 - returnline (at or above high tide drain level)
standpipe #3 - valved low tide drain
Standpipe #4 - emergency high tide drain
As long as the return pump fills slightly faster than the low tide drain it will fill and maintain the high tide. When it shuts off the display will slowly drain to low tide.
I think I like it.

If one focuses on true ocean temps there isn't much variation granted but I have long suspected that intertidal species do tolerate a wide variation of temp extremes. I've noted this many times when I've poked about in natural tidal pools. A sculpin (for example) caught in a shallow pool will go from true ocean temp to quite warm in a matter of hours on a sunny summer day. The plan here is to only stock intertidal species.
Here are some temp ranges from the link that scavenger provided:
Arrow Goby: 4 -26C
Black rockfish: 10 - 17 and up to 22C
Grunt sculpin: up to 23C
Longspine combfish: up to 24C
Starry flounder: 0 - 21.5C
3 spine stickleback: up to 26C

Grunt sculpin
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/gruntsculpin.gif

Mosshead sculpin
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/mossheadsculpin.gif

Tubesnout
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/tubesnout.gif

or for the adventurous, Wolf eel
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/wolfeel.gif

Photo's from hmsc.oregonstate.edu
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[dockrat]

I considered doing the same thing at my office which is actualy floating on the ocean All i would have had to do is Pump fresh salt water (from about 20ft below the office for polution reasons) and add a PC light i could have collected things right off the pillings out side my door and the fish could be colected and released as reqired for size .... What a great idea until i was told By a conservation officer that NO IT IS ILLEGAL TO COLLECT FROM the wild, Exept what is in the Fishing regulations such as crabs, clams , most fish , Ect with a fishing licence.... Most of the stuff i wanted to keep where pertected :sad: ... And my office is open to the public so i decied not to go thru with the idea. If you are considering doing this Just Don't get caught and its best NOT to collect at the beaches where people Dig for clams as the conservation officers often patrole these areas...

[Scavenger]

Dale, one thing you might be able to do to make your intertidal critters feel more at home is add some form of chilling to the sump but not the display tank.

That way, as the tide is dropping the ambient temp of garage might warm display water a bit, like a true tidal zone.

In the sump, you could even try to figure out your evap rate and have an ice cube dump for your top off if you can't afford a chiller.

Once the return kicks in (raising tide) the critters will be hit with colder water much like the natural enviroment.
Just a theory, but I'd guess certain behaviors in your livestock would be more triggered by temp than light.

[Dale]

Just an update.
I'm now in the "process" of communicating with the Fed and Prov Gov's re. collection and transport issues. Welcome to my nightmare!!! Oh well, no brick walls yet - just lots of detours. I'll post the results when and if I ever have some. So far the people I have spoken to both there and at the V.Aquarium have been nice enough and want to help but no one seems to know how to apply the rules to this situation.

I've had a tank and sump running in the garage for a week now and as suspected, no condensation. I really want to try to avoid any temp imput so that the tank follows the ambient temp in the garage. Already I see that my submersable pump is adding heat so I will probably go to an external pump.
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[Scavenger]

Dale,

I was going to do this tank set up a couple of years back..
I wrote the DFO and was assured all you need is a valid Salt Water fishing licence if you are collecting your own livestock. Just respect the area/season closures and catch quota. Anything you collect for your tank will come under the "other" quotas. Unless you plan on stocking a swimming pool, I doubt you'd limit out!