DSB, SSB or BB Experiences

[Reefer Rob]

Well it's finally happened, I suppose it was inevitable. I've finally had my faith in DSBs shaken up a bit. I've been doing some reading since some recent discussions about sand on Canreef, and it turns out I may have missed a few of the finer points about DSB maintenance. It seems that even the most notable proponents of DSBs are saying you need infauna recharging on a regular basis to keep them healthy. I don't know why I breezed over that the first time. Since these kits don't seem to be available in Canada, I'm now wondering if DSBs are viable here long term. I plan to upgrade to a 180 or a 225 in the new year, and I hope to be able to sort through all the conflicting opinions by then to know what I want to do for substrate :neutral:

So here's what I'd like to do.

First, I am hoping we can have a civil discussion on the subject.(please)

I would like to find out what people think of their DSBs, SSBs and bare bottoms. I would especially like to hear from anyone who has had a DSB running for 4 or more years, and have them tell us how they feel about it.

Right now I'm leaning towards a SSB in my display, with room for a couple of remote DSBs IF NEEDED.

[Moogled]

Hi Reefer_Rob.

I've had a 33 gallon barebottom tank running for about 4 months now. When it comes to maintenance, BB has certainly made my reef easier to keep clean.

The detritus mostly collects in several dead points which make removing waste a CINCH. That way, I don't have to worry about the continually siphoning water while I search for the areas that have detritus.

I've noticed that some people on the board do not like the look of a BB tank. However, painting the bottom (you can spray the back too) of the tank white makes the final product seem similar to a tank with a sandbed. Another bonus is that the white paint also reflects light.

[safety4fire]

I have had my tank running for about four months now with a DSB. It works for me so far. I have a lot of things that stir up the sand Dragon Goby, snails, crabs, and starfish. I suggest if you do go DSB, you might want to consider a Dragon Goby. The only drawback is the sand that ends up on the coral, can be taken care of with a turkey baster.

2Cents
:biggrin:

[littlesilvermax]

I had a DSB for 2 years and never had any of the problems that many say you can have, no major algae problems, no HUGE nutrient trap. When I took it out the sand was almost all very clean.

That being said my 250 (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26595) is BB and I will never go back! After a while the whole bottom is coverd with coraline, and since I used starboard (actually cuttingboard) the zoos have almost covered the whole bottom.

Pros:

-less expensive
-more room for water
-allows more flow which keeps detritus in suspension
-no critters to buy again and again
-things like OM 4-way don't get clogged
-no sand storms

cons:

-some animals need sand
-nassarius snails are cool

IMO sand only looks good for a little while, and then it never looks great. Nobody that has come over to my house has mentioned the lack of sand. My corals (mostly SPS) are all growing like mad. In fact my very first coral (probably first 10) were all SPS and I didn't find them hard or finicky at all.

[Chin_Lee]

I had a ssb (0.5") in my display tank which was just thick enough to cover my eggcrate I had laid down to put the rocks on. Bad mistake because the flow in the tank created sand storms and exposed many parts of the eggcrate. Eventually the sand became ugly and I contemplated for a long time but finally decided to suck out the sand exposing all the eggcrate. But I now have a new tank currently being set up, I have decided to go BB. But instead of smooth glass, I glued a thin layer of sand to the glass with Envirotex Lite which is a two part epoxy that is considered reef-safe. It dries hard as a rock and is rather rough to touch. Here's a pic of the faux pas sandbed around the drop cloth.
(please don't mind the mess and no the sand is not purple striped)
http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/695_9586a.JPG

My plan is to have some seio's or tunzes aimed at the ground in the center to push out the detritus to the sides where I will be able to siphon them off. With a real sandbed, that will not be possible.
I'm all for BB for the same reasons as stated by Ben:
- easier maintenance
- higher flow
- eventually you can get a zoo covered floor

The ONLY advantage I can think of for sand is esthetics - it looks good. Its hit and miss to accomplish a good well-populated sandbed that is effective long-term.

[Jedi68]

Hey Chin; that's a pretty big tank.
I am also thinking about a BB tank after my struggle of keeping the DSB esthetically pleasing. I really like your idea of the sand bottom. If you don't mind me asking, where did you buy the expoxy "envirotex". Thanks!

richard

[vanreefer]

Hey Chin,
Tanks looking good... now I know where you've been hiding

Dan

[Reefer Rob]

My main reason for the sand would be for esthetics, I really like the look of sand. A zoo bottom sounds REALLY cool though. Probably would denitrify better than a sandbed at any depth as well. I had always thought BB meant either coraline bottom or another surface to scrape.

[fishface]

does anyone know of a way to make a "removable" faux sandbed? so if you're not happy you with it...out it comes.

[dirtyreefer]

I did the faux sandbed like Chin mentioned on my new tank. I used Envirotex Lite (you can do a search for it, then check out the Canadian retailers that carry it) and glued the sand to starboard so that it could be removed if I didn't like it.

What I found when setting up my new tank is that I got a bit of an algae bloom (until the skimmer kicks in and skims out all the other crap in your tank). Since the sand is hard, the algae and coraline and everything else sticks to it so it's a b#*ch cleaning it. I found that it looked dirty all the time (with the stained green, brown and coraline algae colors), even after I scrubbed it with a course brush. Let's just say now I've buried it with a SSB and won't go back.

Basically I've tried barebottom (on my old tank, hated the look of it), faux sandbed (didn't like the dirty look), and SSB. I've never done DSB nor will I ever try it. I think I'll always be a SSB lover since every water change I siphon out as much sand as I can and replace it with new (or washed) sand to keep it clean. Never had any problems this way, but YMMV.

Maintenance wise, BB or faux sandbed is the easiest to keep clean. I just can't stand the look of BB IME. Some people can make theirs look good, but I can't. I am more for looks so I'll spend a bit of extra time replacing and siphoning sand to make my tank look as natural as possible.

[Reefer Rob]

LOL I was thinking about a SSB for esthetic reasons, now after the zoo bottom idea I'm thinking about BB for esthetic reasons. How about a fiberglass reinforced agracrete bottom moulded in a few pieces. I could be textured to look like rock (not sand), and sloped from say 3" in the back to near 0 in the front. I should still get the nutrient processing abilities of a sandbed, and the flow of a BB tank. The weight of the agracrete should be able to be included in the total weight of my live rock, thus reducing the cost of set up. My rock structures could also be attached with rods to the base for stability.

[ron101]

I had a DSB for several years and it became a big algae factory. The kind that carpets everything in the tank. Would never do one again. The theory of restocking sandbed fauna doesn't make sense to me. If they are constantly dying off - where are the nutrients going?

I also think that BB is the best for maintenance but I prefer the looks of some sand. I went with a thin layer of crushed coral that I vacuum with a syphon during water changes.

[albert_dao]

Zeovit Is The Future! Lol!

[fresh]

You guys keep forgetting one thing, "NO 2 TANKS ARE ALIKE"!!!

What works for one person, might not work for others, and what doesn't work for you, might be something that others swear by.

A couple of years ago, DSP was the big thing. A couple of years before that, crushed coral was the big thing. Today, BB is the big thing. And in a couple years from now, something else will be the big thing, and people will be telling you to throw away the idea of a BB because of so and so...

This is a cycle that never stops. It is partly a money scam, and partly proven facts and theories.

You have to decide for yourself. What looks you would like to go with, and then follow a type of maintenance that satisfies that look!!!

Many people have had successful DSB. Also many are still using crushed coral successfully. And today, I see a lot of BB tanks. They all look different, and they all have their pros and cons.

Just my 2cents!!!

[Reefer Rob]

Fresh, this is just the kinds of things I'm trying to get work through so I can make MY desision. I would like to hear from people who have had a DSB long term. My DSB has been running for 2 years, but I wouldn't consider that long term.

Zeovit?! Albert, SIT... STAY... NO BARK... good boy :mrgreen:

[albert_dao]

Heh, honestly though, I LOVE Zeovit. It's a proven system (Europe) and you could run a fully stocked tank with almost no other forms of substrate and still be stable and algae free.

Eg. At work, our 200 gallon system has no substrates other than the Zeolites and maybe 75 lbs of live rock. It's fully stocked with corals, clams, has no detectable ammonia, nitrite, nitrate or phosphate. Another tank, the 150 gallon system has minimal rock, no sand and is fully loaded with coral and stocked with a million fish, all of which are fat. Again, this tank looks pristine!

[Chin_Lee]

This is a cycle that never stops. It is partly a money scam, and partly proven facts and theories.

Fresh
I do agree with you on the most part. However I doubt that BB is a money scam since you're not buying anything for BB.
Also the DSB hype for the most part was timing of the eventual outcome. In theory as written by that good doctor, it sounded like a perfect solution. Fish poops and extra foods are eaten by critters in your "live" sandbed - what a wonderful theory but it took a few years for people to realize that they need the right critters in the right proportion to make it work correctly. Since then, the doctor has since changed his view somewhat to state that. How is an average aquarist able to stock 5-10 fish in his/her 100 gallon aquarium and expect that the 8 square feet of sand to house enough critters to eat all that bioload's waste? Compare this sand to bioload ratio in our aquariums to that of the ocean and one will realize that our aquarium's sandbeds would need to be extraordinary to accomplish that feat.
I'm sure another hype will come up sooner or later but regardless, a DSB is like playing russian roulette and the number of bullets in the revolver will depend on your fitration system, bioload, feeding frequency, and your dedication to your maintenance routine.
For the time being, go BB go. :lol:

[fresh]

you lazy bum ;) lol

[Chad]

From everything I have read and Dr Ron himeself says something similar. That a DSB is not functional in anything less than 50 some odd gals. So don't even consider it if its not atleast that size.. you might have to search tho, cuz it might be a higher gal.. I just forget it.

I had a DSB in my 20gal.. and it eventualy went to crap because you just cannot get enough bio-diversity in such a small amount of area. So I had cyano issues, algae issues.. nitrate through the roof.. it was just a giant nutrient sink that filled up in short order.

Now I run a BB in my 50gal for over a year.. nitrates are zero, I didn't even "cook" my rocks.. but man did they shed, they shedded for about a year. I have one dead spot where all my ditirutus collects, I just syphon it out every week.

I do have a bit of a PH issue because of the lack of buffering from the SB.. but that is it and I just use Kalk to balance that out with a controller.

[ron101]

I havent read anything of R. Shimek's on DSBs recently but to me he lost alot of his credibility when the problems with them surfaced on a large scale. Much of his info on DSBs was personal opinion, not based on experimental evidence (a big no-no in the scientific community).

Like Chin-Lee said about bioload ratios as compared to the ocean. A DSB may be viable in a 100 gallon tank with a single 1" fish but who is going to stock it that way?

[Doug]

Fresh
I do agree with you on the most part. However I doubt that BB is a money scam since you're not buying anything for BB.


:smile: I was going to say the same. If anything the dsb push would be, with all the different sands to by and all the creatures needed to maintain it. But then our hobby as a whole seems to be that way sometimes. :lol:

[Skimmerking]

Well I have have the pleasure of having DSB and the BB with the sand bed my tank is looking dirty yes the nitrates were ZERO, but i was never happy always buying snails to clean cukes and conches for the bed.

Now since I converted my Fowlr inthe the reef tank. I love the BB look ya it takes a while to get the coraline to come up, but be careful of what you wish for. Once it starts it's on it's way. With that being said my tank is always more cleaner looking. Sure i have to suck out the crap in the corners where it pools. But hey its easier then moving all the rocks around and then having a mini sand storm in the tank and then lettting it settle just to turn on the Powerheads to have it blown all over the rocks.

bottom line if you need to export the nitrates get clams or mangorves or Refuguims. IMHO i love the BB look. and the fishes love it too.

[marie]

I decided to go with a shallow sand bed years ago because I really didn't like the look of 6" of sand pressing on the glass.

I don't like my bottom being bare either :wink: and I've always been fascinated by the little critters in the tank (pods, worms and such) so I've always had some sand in my tanks and I've never regreted it

[mark]

Had a 75g FOWLR for 3+ years with a DSB and basically was trouble free. I did have little blooms of cyno but got that sorted out with flow and I believe using ro/di. Nitrates always zero and liked the look even the DSB from the side.

When I set up the new tank wanted sand again but wasn't prepared to fork over the cash for a DSB in 145g, worried about sandstorms with about 4600gph plus the wife wanted to try the look of BB (probably more the deciding factor). Thought okay, for nitrate control would either go DSB in the sump or run a remote in a separte vessel if they start to rise but still zero after being up 6+ months so never did.

I've been considering a SSB with large grains. My tank has coralline over most of the bottom plate but still want a sand bed specially when I see someone elses tank with sand. Probably a little less envious each time though so why I haven't done SSB yet.

Alway wondered about how coralline would look on a faux sand bed as nothing would stop it from growing.

[StirCrazy]

Many people have had successful DSB. Also many are still using crushed coral successfully.

Define successfully.

I do not know of any DSB that I would concider successful.

Personaly Ihave had all 3, my DSB lasted 2 years, in the last 4 months I was getting nussance algae I couldn't explain or get rid of. SO I went to a ssb. It was the same deal, maybe as I used the sand from the dsb to do it, but I had lots of bugs and such to keep both beds stirred. Now I am at the BB stage, I love it easy to keep clean, the rock still is more than enuf to keep my nitrates at 0. don't have to worry about a built up of nutrents in the sand bed any more.

A few thinga about DSB, th emain supporter of them, the good Dr Ron. Two years after he said they were the best thing in this hobby sence sliced bread, changed his mind. The reasoning he used was that in the hobby we can only hope to keep 10% of the different types and number of "Bugs" alive to make a DSB work, then about 1 year laiter he started on the fact that a DSB can be a nutrent/heavy metal sink if not run proper, which the previous year he said was impossable for us to run one properly.

so I decided to go BB after trying DSB and SSB and I think BB is where I will stay as I haven't found a down side yet. The bottom covers over fast with calcium deposits, then turns to coraline and you can put corals on it to cover it also like Brad has.

Steve

[Reefer Rob]

For those who havn't read these yet, I thought I'd post links to articles on a couple of sand bed experiments done by Rob Toonen and Christopher Wee
An Experimental Comparison of Sandbed and Plenum-Based Systems. Part 1: Controlled lab dosing experiments (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature)
An Experimental Comparison of Sandbed and Plenum-Based Systems: Part 2: Live Animal Experiments (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature)
It's interesing that the sandbeds processed nitrates equally regardless of their depth (no anaerobic zone), and particlle size.
Bare bottom tanks were not included in the experiments, but I don't think we need to guess how much nutrient a bare tank would process :wink:

[littlesilvermax]

0 nitrates for me in my BB!

[Skimmerking]

Thanks to Ozone and clams eh Ben:wink:

[littlesilvermax]

Thanks to Ozone and clams eh Ben:wink:Never had nitrates before ozone or before my clams, but they do help!

[Psyire]

Do you guys have anything on the bottom of your BB tanks? or just the glass?

[Aquattro]

I jst have glass with some encrusting montipora growing here and there. Never had NO3 in any tank, so their not a reason to use sand. The defining point in my decision making was when I removed the sand from my 150g. I could not believe the crud that was built up in there!! Just disgusting, I'm surprised the fish didn't jump out.
Since going BB, and keeping every other aspect of my tank maintenance the same, I get better growth, better colors and full polyp extension on every single coral in the tank. Never did I have that with a DSB.
When I first set it up, sure, it looked a bit strange, but now I don't notice it, and people that come to see my tank don't notice it either. My tanks is built for corals, not sand.

[Beverly]

Just plain glass on our BB tank. Given sustained proper chemistry, coralline grows like crazy.

[Reefer Rob]

So many happy campers with their bare bottoms, I might have to give this a try. I could remove the sand from my present tank to see if I like it, then I can choose between BB or SSB when I set up my new tank... To that end, does anyone have any good links on going bare bottom. From what I understand, it involves removing all the rock, scooping out the sand (straining it for snails), and totally re-aquascaping.

[Beverly]

From what I understand, it involves removing all the rock, scooping out the sand (straining it for snails), and totally re-aquascaping.

That's how I would do it. Then you are assured that possible toxins from the sandbed won't harm your animals.

[Johnny Reefer]

Just wondering....what are some methods that BB people use to maintain pH?

Thanx much,

[Chad]

Just wondering....what are some methods that BB people use to maintain pH?

Thanx much,

I only use Kalk at the moment, for at night when my PH drops about 4 - 6 points... I have too much CO2 in the house and even with better venting it doesn't want to budge.. so at night I dose Kalk.. keeps me steady at 8.2

[StirCrazy]

Just wondering....what are some methods that BB people use to maintain pH?

Thanx much,

PH doesn't move, it is the same as it was when I had a sand bed. the sand doesn't really buffer a tank anyways as for it to dissolve you have to have your PH below 7 and if it is that low you have more problems to worry about.

but I suppose that if you are running a kalk reactor and a ca reactor you shouldn't have any problems.

Steve

[Quagmire]

I have a sandbed,but what Ive found realy stabilizes the Ph is my refuge with Chaeto run opposite my lights. Solid 8.3 or above depending on Alk.

[safety4fire]

I think it comes down to what you want from tank, I like sand sifting gobies, I like yellow headed Jaw Fish, I like snails, Crabs, feather duster worms, to me it is my little ocean:biggrin: So for me, for now I will stay with my 3" sand bed. Then again, I have only been into this hobby for four months now, next year I could change my mind. We will see.